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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: Which is more realistic - leaving Islam or apostasy?
  • Reform - 4 (33.3%)
  • Apostasy - 8 (66.7%)
  • Total Voters: 12

 Topic: Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?

 (Read 9192 times)
  • Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #30 - June 01, 2016, 08:19 AM

    I am genuinely Muslim. I tried ExMuslim. It doesn't fit. Islam was the religion lovingly wrapped around me along with my name, identity and place in this world.

    So I have earned the right to take control of it.

    And control of it I will take.


    And you have every right to.  I think you make a great point.  It always had great meaning to you, it shaped you in a positive way.  You became an ex muslim for awhile because the things you read didn't match the religion you believed you followed, but it never had to be that way for you.  You can take it how you always took it, and argue against those who desire to make it into the thing you do not believe Islam should be. 

    It never was positive for me.  Every step of the way was horrible.  Holding on to a memory of loving ramadan because my dad couldn't beat me whilst he was fasting...that's just not a positive memory of Islam.

    There was nothing to hold on to for me, but that's perfectly ok too. 

    I think apostasy will become irrelevant and unnecessary once apathy becomes more common.


    Couldn't agree more.  It is true, the ex-Muslim identity really is premised off the Muslim identity, it makes me/us an 'other' that they dictate we are, and we dictate to ourselves.  Hadn't truly applied this view to myself, but I do like it.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #31 - June 01, 2016, 10:24 AM

     


    The main issue I have with non literal interpretations of Islam is that they just won't hold up to criticism from islamic clerics.

    The only way to gain the upper-hand over them is to criticize religion directly.  Attempting to use non literal progressive islam to defeat orthodox islam is like trying to win a boxing match while wearing a straight jacket.

    I mean its not a coincidence that the exmuslim movement has surpassed the progressive muslim movement in size despite the fact that progressive muslim orgs have existed since before the exmuslim scene started exploding.



    That's specifically why I said "what reformed Islam will look like for them individually." I personally have no interest in trying to reform Islam through some new interpretation that I'll put toe to toe against a more traditional interpretation as being both reformed and authentic.

    Most "traditional" Muslims (I use that term in the absence of a better one) will always call me a Kafir or a Murtad, and I honestly don't give a fuck. I don't believe in any sort of literal concept of God. I drink alcohol. I committed zina less than eight hours ago. I had some pork ribs over the weekend (and completely shattered my diet). I pay interest on my loans. I watched the sun come up this morning and the idea of prostrating eastward never crossed my mind. To many Muslims, I'm a disbeliever and that's all there is to it. I'm not trying to convince them otherwise.

    But for me, even my disbelief stems from my experience as a Muslim. It is precisely because of my unique experience with Islam that I no longer feel shackled by it, or by any other religion. I'm beginning to see this less as me being ex-Muslim and more as me simply transcending Islam.

    And as I continue to explore all of what it means to be human in the secular world, I realize that having a religious heritage is not something unique to Muslims. It is not something to be ashamed of. Islam is mine, and I'll do with it what I want.

    Islam is still "in me" in the form of my memories,  many of my habits, and many of my thoughts and actions. It affects me in ways that it does not affect those who have never been Muslim.

    I'd love to be able to say that once I committed "kufr," I was suddenly transformed into a new person with a new identity and new background, but that simply isn't true.  To deny my Islam, even to continue to rebel against that part of me, is to deny and rebel against a portion of my human experience - a formative portion at that.

    I won't let some fanatical salafi or some self appointed spokesperson for "reform" take away a space that feels comfortable and natural to me. Nor will I feel compelled to choose between Muslim and ex-Muslim. As absurdist so eloquently put it, I'm still comfortable in both spaces.

    PS

    And Rastafari Islam could stand up to criticism.  Smiley  Wink
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #32 - June 01, 2016, 11:31 AM

    We have completely different experiences.


    What is your experience of telling someone that you're an ex-Muslim or even an atheist in a mosque?

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #33 - June 01, 2016, 11:46 AM

    fascinating thread.
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #34 - June 01, 2016, 11:58 AM

    Quote
    "Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?"


    Well when Odds are against apostasy with death threats sitting on inside and outside  of apostate head., then reform is more realistic and an option ....

    But.. but those reforms are only possible,  when any one who  wears a t-shirt  that says.,
    Quote
    "Quran is NOT word of Allah/God whatever and  sayings and actions of  prophets are questionable "

    and must be able to walk safely  on  any street in any country at  any place at any time..  

    then it doesn't matter what we are .,  then  Muslims...Ex-Muslims.. Zebras.. Christians... juice.. hindoos....budhhus...  who cares what faith one belongs to..  SAME  THING GOES TO OTHER FAITHS AND FIATH HEADS..

     Go in and out of any faith at any time ... WHO CARES....??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #35 - June 01, 2016, 12:05 PM

    What is your experience of telling someone that you're an ex-Muslim or even an atheist in a mosque?

    There's an LGBTQ mosque/community space in Toronto. They don't care what you identify as.

    There's also a Sufi mosque/organization in Toronto. They're pretty religious, and are the practicing kinds of Sufis with Islam all over their website. They don't care what you identify as and welcome everyone.

    There's also a queer-positive Muslim organization in Toronto.

    And the Muslim Canadian Congress is a very progressive and secular organization. Its leader is more or less an atheist. Some believe he is actually an atheist.

    I've also met/dated several Muslims, some more practicing than others. None of them cared how I identified as or how I related to Islam. Last person I dated is a queer hijabi. I was very open to her about my drinking and basically everything.

    Islam is diverse, but this diversity is erased in Islamic countries by the conservative orthodoxy. It's a lot more apparent in secular countries.
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #36 - June 01, 2016, 12:09 PM

    What is your experience of telling someone that you're an ex-Muslim or even an atheist in a mosque?

    it depends upon the  mosque, congregation and preachers in it ..

    For.. eg Hassan mentioned a name in one of his posts .. Ahmad Al-Qabbanji...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWXk8zgRjEo

    or Javed Ghamdi

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqEbA2hJMOQ

    is preaching and has full control of Mosque.,  Then yes we can attend it with t-shirt that says " I am an atheist"

    let me write something about that shia guy  Ahmad Al-Qabbanji and other reformers in a separate folder  .. They are indeed very important and extreme minority in Islam..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #37 - June 01, 2016, 12:14 PM

    And you have every right to.  I think you make a great point.  It always had great meaning to you, it shaped you in a positive way.  You became an ex muslim for awhile because the things you read didn't match the religion you believed you followed, but it never had to be that way for you.  You can take it how you always took it, and argue against those who desire to make it into the thing you do not believe Islam should be. 

    It never was positive for me.  Every step of the way was horrible.  Holding on to a memory of loving ramadan because my dad couldn't beat me whilst he was fasting...that's just not a positive memory of Islam.

    There was nothing to hold on to for me, but that's perfectly ok too. 


    I understand completely habibti *hugs*
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #38 - June 01, 2016, 12:28 PM

    I don't believe in identity politics and as such don't believe in dichotomous identities such as Muslim vs. ex-Muslim. I know it sounds weird to a lot of people, but to me the opposite (i.e. the need to identify as one or the other) is just as weird. To me the question isn't whether it's to be a Muslim and change the religion from within or leave the religion altogether, but rather if it's possible to be both simultaneously. And the answer as I see it is yes. I feel I belong in Muslim spaces just as much as I belong in ex-Muslim spaces, and I feel I don't belong in Muslim spaces just as much as I don't belong in ex-Muslim spaces.

    I'm a Muslim or an ex-Muslim depending on what definition you use. Most ex-Muslims use the definition prescribed by conservative Muslims, but I think that gives conservative Muslims too much power and reinforces their position.


    Excellent post, Absurdist.
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #39 - June 01, 2016, 12:29 PM

    Having said that find it hard to avoid identity politics. I feel the need for an identity and felt lost when I tried to shed that which I was used to.
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #40 - June 01, 2016, 12:36 PM

    Having said that find it hard to avoid identity politics. I feel the need for an identity and felt lost when I tried to shed that which I was used to.

     Well delete that word "politics"

    Identity of a human being .,cultural or religious or linguistic   is different from  identity politics and religious politics  that play games  making rules to the society.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #41 - June 01, 2016, 12:38 PM

    Having said that find it hard to avoid identity politics. I feel the need for an identity and felt lost when I tried to shed that which I was used to.

    Contemporary Western culture is seeped in identity politics. You need to label yourself before others mislabel you. I've had that experience.
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #42 - June 01, 2016, 12:44 PM

    Well I feel quite comfortable with "Agnostic Muslim" as it embraces who I am quite well and always leads to interesting discussions not to mention it pisses off both islamists and anti-Muslim bigots.
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #43 - June 01, 2016, 12:45 PM

    Contemporary Western culture is seeped in identity politics. You need to label yourself before others mislabel you. I've had that experience.

      well folks living in west can  can label whatever they want .,but that doesn't work.. try that here



    Pakistan Passport application form. —Photo

    the person will find the consequences

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #44 - June 01, 2016, 04:03 PM

    We have completely different experiences.
    I stopped praying at 12, left Islam at 16, moved out at 18. Islam never left me. Nor do I want it to.

     

    I guess its still with me in the sense I like to listen to sami yusuf songs on occasion and will recite an ayah in my head once in a while because its familiar but nothing outwardly muslim.

    I'm trying to reconnect with my pakistani culture post apostasy because orthodox islam makes you reject all of that. No music, no dances, no art with animate things on it.



    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #45 - June 01, 2016, 05:51 PM

    Perhaps. But I don't think so


    An Wilson god's funeral describes how Britain dechristianised in the nineteenth century (but arguably we were a pretty apathetic lot before we got a dose of enthusiasm from the Methodists in the 18th century!)

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #46 - June 01, 2016, 05:55 PM

    The Pakistani passport form being in English is probably blasphemous! I would argue that Islam must be practiced entirely in quranic Arabic , and therefore no one who does not speak write and understand quranic Arabic perfectly is a Muslim :-)

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #47 - June 01, 2016, 06:07 PM

    The Pakistani passport form being in English is probably blasphemous! I would argue that Islam must be practiced entirely in quranic Arabic , and therefore no one who does not speak write and understand quranic Arabic perfectly is a Muslim :-)

     Cheesy  let me modify that  ..

    "No one who does not speak,  write and understand Quranic Arabic
    perfectly  have no right to be A  Muslim  AND SHOULD BE JAILED "


    A person who does not believe in the absolute and unqualified finality of The Prophethood of Muhammad (Peace be upon him), the last of the Prophets or claims to be a Prophet, in any sense of the word or of any description whatsoever, after Muhammad (Peace be upon him), or recognizes such a claimant as a Prophet or religious reformer, is not a Muslim for the purposes of the Constitution or law.   ....... Constitution of Pakistan

    Quote
    Two-in-three Pakistani Muslims say Ahmadis are not Muslims, according to a Pew Research poll conducted in November 2011. Just 7% accept Ahmadis as fellow Muslims, while 26% do not offer a response or say they don’t know.

    The poll also found that a majority of Pakistani Muslims support the country’s blasphemy laws, which predate Pakistan’s independence in 1947 but have since been expanded. The laws, which carry a potential death sentence for insulting Islam, have been frequently invoked against Ahmadis and other religious minorities in Pakistan; although formal criminal prosecutions are rare, social discrimination and harassment of Ahmadis is widespread. Fully 75% of Pakistani Muslims say blasphemy laws are necessary to protect Islam in their country, while 6% say blasphemy laws unfairly target minority communities, and 19% express no opinion on the issue.


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #48 - June 01, 2016, 06:20 PM


    And the Muslim Canadian Congress is a very progressive and secular organization. Its leader is more or less an atheist. Some believe he is actually an atheist.



     

    If your referring to Tarek Fatah he just comes across as a very confused person to me. He keeps jumping all over the place. Sometimes he's supporting left wing politician sometimes right wing.


    Tries to link muslims orgs and speakers back to the muslim brotherhood for some reason. One can easily criticize those orgs and the views they espouse without trying to find some weak link to an islamist organization abroad.   

    Recently he went on the offensive against exmuslims on twitter for no apparent reason. Something about exmuslims not advocating for the human right situation in baloch ?   Why would one expect western raised exmuslims to know about a political tension in a foreign country they never lived in

    Several people have said he's a nicer person in real life than on twitter so there is that.  Maybe he just really needs to hire a PR person to handle his social media for him.


    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #49 - June 01, 2016, 06:51 PM

    There's an LGBTQ mosque/community space in Toronto. They don't care what you identify as.

    There's also a Sufi mosque/organization in Toronto. They're pretty religious, and are the practicing kinds of Sufis with Islam all over their website. They don't care what you identify as and welcome everyone.

    There's also a queer-positive Muslim organization in Toronto.

    And the Muslim Canadian Congress is a very progressive and secular organization. Its leader is more or less an atheist. Some believe he is actually an atheist.

    I've also met/dated several Muslims, some more practicing than others. None of them cared how I identified as or how I related to Islam. Last person I dated is a queer hijabi. I was very open to her about my drinking and basically everything.

    Islam is diverse, but this diversity is erased in Islamic countries by the conservative orthodoxy. It's a lot more apparent in secular countries.


    That's pretty cool man!  Afro

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #50 - June 01, 2016, 07:48 PM

    From what I gathered the Canadian Muslim Congress is made up of the older generation of muslim background people who had a secular mindset.

    The younger generation of secular muslim people in Canada are either through the lgbt muslim groups or other progressive muslim orgs like Muslims For Progressive Values (MPV) Canadian branch.

    I haven't visited the Canadian branch of MPV because they are apparently a bit hesitant to take new members but I've been to the lgbt mosque once and the people there were pretty friendly.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #51 - June 03, 2016, 01:24 AM

    In Heretic, Ayaan Hirsi Ali has engaged in an exercise of self-branding in order for her otherwise valid arguments to be even considered by her intended audience (Muslim people).

    How desperate can you get in trying to be heard in your reformative endeavours? And is there not a converse case here with Muhammad getting disheartened about not getting the ear of the great and influential of his day?

     إن الذين حقت عليهم كلمة ربك لا يؤمنون ولو جاءتهم كل آية حتى يروا العذاب الآليم -- سورة يونس

    This make-believe labeling on her part gets undermined by her repeated appearances on Fox News, amongst other platforms, denouncing Islam in the strongest possible ways she can muster. In Katie Hopkins' words on a similar theme when she was made a columnist on the Daily Mail; "they know what they're getting when they hired me [alright]!"

    Ayann is otherwise a heroine of mine but I find her dishonest branding stunt (that she's still a Muslim albeit a heretical one for the purpose of debating Muslims and getting a look in from them) to be a marketing gimmick which is really beneath her.

    OK. I accept I was a bit harsh on Ayaan and perhaps holding her to loftier standards that I personally don't live by. It’s easy to criticise from the sidelines someone who is committed to contributing to these issues and attaching their name to their contributions. Whether this was because Ayaan had a death fatwa placed on her, and in so doing she has from that moment onward had nothing to lose by becoming so vocal and polemical in her works on Islam, or whether it is because, in the words of a famous critic, she is as talented at reinventing herself as a chameleon; that should not allow me to be unduly harsh on her. Astaghfirullah Wa Atubu Ilaih.

    And if I’m being honest and liberally fair, Ayaan is only sticking to the label “Heretic” because it is conducive, in comparison to other pejorative terms, to not making the difference between herself and her possibly Muslim interlocutors bigger. (Surely such procedural things should not get in the way of the substantive side of things, on whose important vitality in the debate everyone must stand or fall.)

    For all I know, Ayaan might have redefined what Muslim should mean by way of taking ownership of the term as purely a linguistic and surface exercise, or retrospectively as the form around which her identity centred for years and years, to the end of regarding its factual eradication from her past in small ways as well as its emotional persistence – positive or largely negative - from her present to be impossible.

    Muslim now might mean things to her which they never did when it was defined through the criteria she was born into. If so, she would not be talking about the same thing as she makes it out to be.  

    Still, she might have chosen another title for her book, such as “If You Must Be Muslim” but the publisher or others prevailed upon her to choose otherwise. But there’s no ducking the point that operationalising the terms “heresy” and “Muslim” is something Ayaan can’t do without. Within such optimal a matrix, the debate then is going to lead either to somewhere or to an aporia.
  • Which is more realistic - Reform or apostasy?
     Reply #52 - June 10, 2016, 08:20 AM

    That's specifically why I said "what reformed Islam will look like for them individually." I personally have no interest in trying to reform Islam through some new interpretation that I'll put toe to toe against a more traditional interpretation as being both reformed and authentic.

    Most "traditional" Muslims (I use that term in the absence of a better one) will always call me a Kafir or a Murtad, and I honestly don't give a fuck. I don't believe in any sort of literal concept of God. I drink alcohol. I committed zina less than eight hours ago. I had some pork ribs over the weekend (and completely shattered my diet). I pay interest on my loans. I watched the sun come up this morning and the idea of prostrating eastward never crossed my mind. To many Muslims, I'm a disbeliever and that's all there is to it. I'm not trying to convince them otherwise.

    But for me, even my disbelief stems from my experience as a Muslim. It is precisely because of my unique experience with Islam that I no longer feel shackled by it, or by any other religion. I'm beginning to see this less as me being ex-Muslim and more as me simply transcending Islam.

    And as I continue to explore all of what it means to be human in the secular world, I realize that having a religious heritage is not something unique to Muslims. It is not something to be ashamed of. Islam is mine, and I'll do with it what I want.

    Islam is still "in me" in the form of my memories,  many of my habits, and many of my thoughts and actions. It affects me in ways that it does not affect those who have never been Muslim.

    I'd love to be able to say that once I committed "kufr," I was suddenly transformed into a new person with a new identity and new background, but that simply isn't true.  To deny my Islam, even to continue to rebel against that part of me, is to deny and rebel against a portion of my human experience - a formative portion at that.

    I won't let some fanatical salafi or some self appointed spokesperson for "reform" take away a space that feels comfortable and natural to me. Nor will I feel compelled to choose between Muslim and ex-Muslim. As absurdist so eloquently put it, I'm still comfortable in both spaces.

    PS

    And Rastafari Islam could stand up to criticism.  Smiley  Wink


    I can relate to this especially the bold part.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
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