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Theme Changer

 Topic: Arab Humanists

 (Read 3506 times)
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  • Arab Humanists
     OP - June 06, 2016, 02:59 PM

    A newish blog in English and Arabic: http://www.arabhumanists.org
    Quote
    We are Arab secularists, rationalists and humanists aiming to shine light on the rich tradition of humanistic thought in Arab history, from pre-Islamic Arabia to today, and then draw upon that to put forward non-dogma based approaches for tackling the complex issues facing the Arab world...

    Quote
    FAQ

    Why does the Arab world need Humanism?

    Humanism has the potential to entirely re-frame the conversation about free speech, civil rights and the place of religion in the Arab world today. Forms of activism advocating secular and progressive values tend to focus primarily on the what but humanism can help emphasise the why and highlight the reasons for making ethical choices and why its important to move beyond religion in trying to build a better society. Instead of Atheists and free-thinkers constantly being in the defensive and struggling for the very fundamental right of being able to reject ideas, they can start voicing their opinions on important moral questions and be able to propose better ideas and solutions. Humanism can equip this ever-growing minority of dissidents with a framework that enables them to deal with difficult questions they are faced with on the purpose of life and the source of morality and to become a part of important activism to change the mindset holding our society back.

    How is Humanism different from other forms of activism focused on human rights?

    Unlike human rights groups which focus on specific campaigns, the main focus of Humanism is asking broader questions about the philosophy of life and how to come up with a better moral framework that ensures the rights, freedoms and wellbeing of all members of society. Humanism is also explicitly non-religious and we directly challenge the idea of Gods, infallible scripture and the existence of a divine moral code.

    In the Arab world and within other predominantly Muslim nations, the role played by Humanism will be slightly less political in nature than that of secular activists whose main role is to challenge Islamism and Islamists. Humanism’s main aim will be to challenge the mindset of ordinary individuals who may or may not be supporters of Islamism but still subscribe to a dogmatic way of thinking.

    Isn’t humanism a western concept? Are you trying to push a foreign agenda?

    One of the main ideas we aim to tackle is the notion that humanism, secularism and different aspects of modernity are purely western ideas.

    Since the dominant ideology of the West has been liberalism, and since Western powers have been at war with the Arab and Muslim world (both directly and indirectly), liberal ideas have tended to be viewed as apologia for Western interests and many liberal and secular activists get accused of being native informants and trying to advance a western agenda.

    However, it is important to realise that the values of humanism are universal and not confined to any one nation or specific part of the world. There is a rich history of free-thinkers, skeptics and rationalists in the Arab and Muslim world and their legacy should be revived. There is also a long and rough history of dissent and struggle against fanaticism even before western imperialism.

    Why bring up religion and not just focus on common liberal values?

    Religion plays a role in defining how we view justice and define what is moral and so it becomes a major obstacle when trying to fight for certain “common values” such as women’s rights or secularism. Some people might feel that trying to involve religion in any movement pushing for change in the Arab world will be too contentious but we believe its necessary.  Changes in the way society views the role of women or gay rights or other matters were the result of a debate society had within itself about what is good and acceptable.  Scrutinizing religion, ‘blaspheming’ and transgressing the boundaries of what is holy and beyond criticism will have to be part of this process.

    This does not have to be in the form of confrontation. People don’t often change their opinions on the spot but the availability of such material is extremely important for doubters in the long-run

    Aren’t there more pressing issues to discuss in the Arab world before trying to introduce a new philosophy such as humanism?

    We believe humanism is the solution for the most pressing issues facing the Arab world today from violence to poverty, sectarianism, human rights violations and others.

    Some people might argue that the root-causes for these problems has nothing to do with religion and that different political and economical grievances are the real reason. However, we see religious dogmas as a part of the problem and a hinderance that has to be tackled head-on. Change cannot come about with a change in mindset and engaging in debate.

    Wouldn’t leaving religion create an emptiness and “vacuum” in society?

    A common concern shared both by religious and non-religious people is that pushing for religion to take a back-seat in society will create a moral and cultural vacuum. The idea is that religion provides a certain framework which includes morality along with rituals and traditions that keep society together. However, humanism directly tackles this notion that we need religion to have a valid moral framework and it’s very narrow to think of religion as being the main or only source of identity. Far from creating a vacuum, moving away from religion can actually help us embrace all the beautiful aspects of our culture and heritage which were sometimes actually being erased by it.

    What can be problematic is if people lose faith without knowing there is any sort of alternative way of looking at life out there. In this case some can start believing themselves what they have been brought up to believe about being irreligious is a sign of immorality and corruption. Some may suffer from an identity crisis when they fail to find anything to identify with and for that reason its important to establish this alternative identity: humanism.

    Are all Arab Humanists Atheists or non-religious?

    Many of us are atheists, other are agnostics or sceptics. Some choose to hold on to a Muslim, Christian or other religious identity and others don’t. However humanists generally reject the idea of Gods, resurrection and divine scripture and we believe its important to not devalue this life which is most likely the only life we’ve got.

    How will Humanism in the Arab world be different from Humanism in secular nations?

    Today in the western world, many people already tacitly accept humanism even if they don’t neccesarily identify as such. Humanism plays an important role in providing an identity for those are already irreligious. In highly religious and conservative parts of the world such as the Arab World, humanism will have to play a different role in putting forward an alternative worldview and directly challenging the outlook to life held by the majority.

    The role of Arab Humanism today will be more similar to the role of Humanist groups and various non-religious bodies had in the late 19th century in Europe. A big focus will  also have to be placed on education and raising awareness. Needless to say, attempting to do such a thing and challenge religion head on in parts of the world where doing so is illegal and shunned by the majority of society won’t be easy.


    Arab Humanists on twitter: https://mobile.twitter.com/ArabHumanist
  • Arab Humanists
     Reply #1 - June 06, 2016, 03:06 PM

    From the site:

    Arab women before and after Islam: Opening the door of pre-Islamic Arabian history
  • Arab Humanists
     Reply #2 - June 06, 2016, 04:56 PM

    Modern humanism is based on Christianity not Arab tradition. People that attempt to divorce it from Christianity are mistaken and do not understand the concept at all.
  • Arab Humanists
     Reply #3 - June 06, 2016, 07:33 PM

    ^
    What ? 

    Read this manifesto by the american humanist association and explain how you think its related to Christianity

    Quote
    HUMANISM AND ITS ASPIRATIONS

    Humanist Manifesto III, a successor to the Humanist Manifesto of 1933*

    Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without supernaturalism, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity.

    The lifestance of Humanism—guided by reason, inspired by compassion, and informed by experience—encourages us to live life well and fully. It evolved through the ages and continues to develop through the efforts of thoughtful people who recognize that values and ideals, however carefully wrought, are subject to change as our knowledge and understandings advance.

    This document is part of an ongoing effort to manifest in clear and positive terms the conceptual boundaries of Humanism, not what we must believe but a consensus of what we do believe. It is in this sense that we affirm the following:

    Knowledge of the world is derived by observation, experimentation, and rational analysis. Humanists find that science is the best method for determining this knowledge as well as for solving problems and developing beneficial technologies. We also recognize the value of new departures in thought, the arts, and inner experience—each subject to analysis by critical intelligence.

    Humans are an integral part of nature, the result of unguided evolutionary change. Humanists recognize nature as self-existing. We accept our life as all and enough, distinguishing things as they are from things as we might wish or imagine them to be. We welcome the challenges of the future, and are drawn to and undaunted by the yet to be known.

    Ethical values are derived from human need and interest as tested by experience. Humanists ground values in human welfare shaped by human circumstances, interests, and concerns and extended to the global ecosystem and beyond. We are committed to treating each person as having inherent worth and dignity, and to making informed choices in a context of freedom consonant with responsibility.

    Life's fulfillment emerges from individual participation in the service of humane ideals. We aim for our fullest possible development and animate our lives with a deep sense of purpose, finding wonder and awe in the joys and beauties of human existence, its challenges and tragedies, and even in the inevitability and finality of death. Humanists rely on the rich heritage of human culture and the lifestance of Humanism to provide comfort in times of want and encouragement in times of plenty.

    Humans are social by nature and find meaning in relationships. Humanists long for and strive toward a world of mutual care and concern, free of cruelty and its consequences, where differences are resolved cooperatively without resorting to violence. The joining of individuality with interdependence enriches our lives, encourages us to enrich the lives of others, and inspires hope of attaining peace, justice, and opportunity for all.

    Working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness. Progressive cultures have worked to free humanity from the brutalities of mere survival and to reduce suffering, improve society, and develop global community. We seek to minimize the inequities of circumstance and ability, and we support a just distribution of nature's resources and the fruits of human effort so that as many as possible can enjoy a good life.

    Humanists are concerned for the well being of all, are committed to diversity, and respect those of differing yet humane views. We work to uphold the equal enjoyment of human rights and civil liberties in an open, secular society and maintain it is a civic duty to participate in the democratic process and a planetary duty to protect nature's integrity, diversity, and beauty in a secure, sustainable manner.

    Thus engaged in the flow of life, we aspire to this vision with the informed conviction that humanity has the ability to progress toward its highest ideals. The responsibility for our lives and the kind of world in which we live is ours and ours alone.

     

    http://americanhumanist.org/humanism/humanist_manifesto_iii

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Arab Humanists
     Reply #4 - June 06, 2016, 08:43 PM

    Modern Humanism is based on Christianity of the 18th and 19th centuries. Attempting to divorce Christianity from it create a model that has no justification for it's views.

    Quote
    Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without supernaturalism, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity.


    Ethics according to whom? If one wants to put forward Western ethics then that is still Christianity. How does one judge what is for the greater good of humanity? One could claim killing X amount of horrible people is for the benefit of the greater good. One could argue eugenics is for the greater good. That above line is a empty statement.

    Quote
    The lifestance of Humanism—guided by reason, inspired by compassion, and informed by experience—encourages us to live life well and fully. It evolved through the ages and continues to develop through the efforts of thoughtful people who recognize that values and ideals, however carefully wrought, are subject to change as our knowledge and understandings advance.


    Which is merely liberal Christianity without saying it. Changing from god to no-god while retaining 99% of the same model as Christian Humanism only show the evolution from one basis to another while never addressing the conclusions after the basis is changed. Merely invoking reason is a non-answer. It would like rejection a religion by merely asserting "reason" without putting forward any arguments. Grand claims, nothing more Reason is not the end all be all of everything. As I pointed out above people used reason for eugenics. Communism used reason. Do you agree with these conclusion using reason?

    Quote
    Knowledge of the world is derived by observation, experimentation, and rational analysis. Humanists find that science is the best method for determining this knowledge as well as for solving problems and developing beneficial technologies. We also recognize the value of new departures in thought, the arts, and inner experience—each subject to analysis by critical intelligence.


    Science led to eugenics. Communism used scientific racialism as did many Western nations. Do you agree with these ideas? Probably not. However at these times this is how science was used and some conclusions inferred by it's developments. Think about eugenic and the greater good. Many mental and physical disabilities are inherited via genetics. It would be for the greater good to prevent these people from breeding as it would help to eliminate these disabilities and reduce not only the amount of people that suffer from these disabilities in the future but also the drain on family and society in order to support these people; time, funding, medical care, etc. Do you agree with this reasoning?

    What are "values" based upon beside empty statements.

    Quote
    Humans are an integral part of nature, the result of unguided evolutionary change. Humanists recognize nature as self-existing. We accept our life as all and enough, distinguishing things as they are from things as we might wish or imagine them to be. We welcome the challenges of the future, and are drawn to and undaunted by the yet to be known.


    This is an assumption only. Also many liberal Christian completely agree with this. In fact it is the majority view of all but the most fundamental forms of Christianity, usually Protestant. People are still prone to wishful thinking, misinformation, etc. Being a humanist does not make someone immune and suddenly rational nor granted the ability to think critically.

    Quote
    Ethical values are derived from human need and interest as tested by experience. Humanists ground values in human welfare shaped by human circumstances, interests, and concerns and extended to the global ecosystem and beyond. We are committed to treating each person as having inherent worth and dignity, and to making informed choices in a context of freedom consonant with responsibility.


    Values that are predominate based on religions. Human needs are subjective outside of food requirements. Human circumstances are predominately influence by religion. Religion is one of the pillars of civilization. All this is doing is looking at humanity from outside a religious scope then declaring not-god/not-religion is the better basis. Yet history shows that when these view were developed into a system it completely failed, aka communism.

    By what basis do people have inherent worth? By what basis should people treated with dignity?

    Plenty of people have made "informed" choices. The last major one that backfired was the invasion of Iraq.

    Quote
    Life's fulfillment emerges from individual participation in the service of humane ideals. We aim for our fullest possible development and animate our lives with a deep sense of purpose, finding wonder and awe in the joys and beauties of human existence, its challenges and tragedies, and even in the inevitability and finality of death. Humanists rely on the rich heritage of human culture and the lifestance of Humanism to provide comfort in times of want and encouragement in times of plenty.


    Human ideals except religion right? After all reason is a trump card in a blank statement... This removes most human ideals from the selection of what "humanist" interact with. Purpose outside of religion is subjective thus not an object criteria. Religion address every other point with a proper basis, to them, while this article provide zero criteria and is mostly subjective statments.

    Quote
    Humans are social by nature and find meaning in relationships. Humanists long for and strive toward a world of mutual care and concern, free of cruelty and its consequences, where differences are resolved cooperatively without resorting to violence. The joining of individuality with interdependence enriches our lives, encourages us to enrich the lives of others, and inspires hope of attaining peace, justice, and opportunity for all.


    Which can never be accomplished unless a majority of people convert away from a religious based ideologies which is not happening any time soon. The other method is enforcement which failed and the above follows.

    Quote
    Working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness. Progressive cultures have worked to free humanity from the brutalities of mere survival and to reduce suffering, improve society, and develop global community. We seek to minimize the inequities of circumstance and ability, and we support a just distribution of nature's resources and the fruits of human effort so that as many as possible can enjoy a good life.


    More communism while refusing to acknowledge the above was accomplished by the religious and religious organizations not "secular" humanism nor communism

    Quote
    Thus engaged in the flow of life, we aspire to this vision with the informed conviction that humanity has the ability to progress toward its highest ideals. The responsibility for our lives and the kind of world in which we live is ours and ours alone.


    Which is nothing that religions has not made clear for centuries and actually effected change while this so-called secular humanism has accomplished nothing of note.

    All this article does is ignore it's origins in liberal Christianity while embracing both religious and communist ideas without providing a single basis beside invoking "reason" and "science" as it's basis. Both of which have failed repeatedly when employed at the ideological level. As it contains a dose of utopianism which has failed in every case which it was actually used as a system for society and government. There is also the problem in which "secular" humanism is declaring, covertly, other forms of humanism are flawed based on "reason" So this demonstrates that the vast majority of humanity can not even use reason properly yet those that follow a "no-god" basis are suddenly capable of using "reason" properly on the "no-god", "reason" and "science" claims rather than arguments. Since this article provides zero arguments in support of their view that the majority of humanity can not even use reason properly extend to this empty declaration.

    Flower words, no substance. Scientism saddled to "reason"
     
  • Arab Humanists
     Reply #5 - June 07, 2016, 03:25 AM

    You know, there is nothing wrong with divorcing Christianity and Humanism.

    It's just like every other religion/ideologies, they're all based on existing ideologies, yet they all shame the practice of the religions/ideas they copy.

    I mean, while humanism have some Christian ideals, you can also make an argument that a lot of these ideals are universal, and many traditions have upheld some of these ideals before they even knew Christianity. Meanwhile, there are so many sects in Christianity and they believe in different things.

    I disagree that Communism used reason. Communism (the economy) is unreasonable.
  • Arab Humanists
     Reply #6 - June 07, 2016, 10:03 AM

    ..........Modern Humanism is based on Christianity of the 18th and 19th centuries.   Attempting to divorce Christianity from it create a model that has no justification for it's views..... ......


    I am not sure why you are saying that bogart.,?  who is attempting to divorce Christianity from Modern Humanism??   Christian evangelist faith heads??   Off course credit should be given to Some Christian folks.,  

     And  if you take  your other statement  and explore a bit then we can go  on saying..

    Modern Humanism is based on Christianity of the 18th and 19th centuries........
    .... Christianity of the 18th and 19th centuries based on Christianity  of 1st century .......
    ....Christianity  of 1st century based on some OT books/ Zoroastrian ideology ........
    ..Zoroastrian religious saying are based upon some Tao.. Buddhism  sayings.....
    ....  and  some Tao.. Buddhism  sayings  based upon sayings some pagans  .......
    ......Pagan  sayings based upon some evolved human species  that developed langues cultures etc..etc..  .......

    .....And these Human species developed exquisite abilities to think, imagine, organize,  implement their thoughts by looking around nature and animals ...  

    And animals developed exquisite abilities ...... for survival...

    On that line of thinking we can go on all the way to origins of biology on the earth bogart.,

    Morality and Humanism  is very little to do with basic religious ideology of every religion .... and that is  this "god" figure in the minds of faith heads . Off course there are  and there were good people and good sayings in every religion 

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Arab Humanists
     Reply #7 - June 07, 2016, 10:54 AM

    Well, quite a few fundamentalists christians really still hate humanism now, and mainstream christianity did earlier.

    It is even called satanic, because it downplays GAWD, putting the human first.

    Around where I live, it was fought by the church.... And when they lost that fight, the church adopted it, and claimed it to always having been core doctrine.
  • Arab Humanists
     Reply #8 - June 07, 2016, 05:02 PM

    You know, there is nothing wrong with divorcing Christianity and Humanism.


    Merely editing out god and scripture while retaining the same ideas such as providence and the "sacredness of individual" creates a system which is still religious but attempt to divorce itself from the basis from which it's ideals are based upon.

    Quote
    It's just like every other religion/ideologies, they're all based on existing ideologies, yet they all shame the practice of the religions/ideas they copy.


    Yes. However point being the criteria such as dignity, progress, utopiaism are all religious or outright fantasy, ie without religious each has no actually basis.

    Quote
    I mean, while humanism have some Christian ideals, you can also make an argument that a lot of these ideals are universal, and many traditions have upheld some of these ideals before they even knew Christianity. Meanwhile, there are so many sects in Christianity and they believe in different things.


    It's not just some. Every point in that manifesto is the same from Christian Humanism which started centuries ago. Older traditions did not care about the individual but rather the community. The idea of universal ideals is flawed as history shows various groups put limits upon who was considered worthy thus subject to these ideals and acts follow the view point.

    Quote
    I disagree that Communism used reason. Communism (the economy) is unreasonable.


    Communism is not solely an economic system.
  • Arab Humanists
     Reply #9 - June 07, 2016, 05:18 PM

    Well, quite a few fundamentalists christians really still hate humanism now, and mainstream christianity did earlier.


    This is because fundamental Protestant groups view humans as so lost, so deprived that the very idea of humanism is a non-starter. Good works are irrelevant as faith only matters. People must come to them for help, thus convert, due to predestination. If you are poor it is not due to circumstances but because that is your lot in life according to god. God is the one that causes a person to rise or fall in society. If one can not help themselves, by converting, it is a wasted effort since they are hell-bound anyways.

    Roman Catholicism invented humanism, it is mainstream Christianity by history, numbers, and organization. You confuse American Protestants as if they are mainstream, it isn't. They are just the loud ones.

    Quote
    It is even called satanic, because it downplays GAWD, putting the human first.


    Not by the Catholic view as good works matters. Having faith but doing nothings is not good enough in the RCC. Having faith and doing nothing is good enough in Protestantism.

    Quote
    Around where I live, it was fought by the church.... And when they lost that fight, the church adopted it, an claimed it to always having been core dictrine.


    It very well could have been since every form of Protestantism was an off-shoot of Catholicism or a previous form of Protestantism. Beside Protestants change their colours, ideologies, so often that most probably have no idea what they actually believe outside sermons from their pastor.
  • Arab Humanists
     Reply #10 - June 07, 2016, 05:45 PM

    I am not sure why you are saying that bogart.,?  who is attempting to divorce Christianity from Modern Humanism??   Christian evangelist faith heads??   Off course credit should be given to Some Christian folks.,  


    Humanism is a Christian concept. Merely dropping criteria based on Christianity does nothing to change this. It also create an ideology with no actually basis for their views outside scientism.

    Evangelical Christianity is not mainstream Christianity. It is a fringe group that has few numbers outside of America.


    Quote
    Modern Humanism is based on Christianity of the 18th and 19th centuries........


    As a movement, yes. As an idea it dates back to the 14th and 15th centuries. Read work of Erasmus.


    Quote
    ....Christianity  of 1st century based on some OT books/ Zoroastrian ideology ........


    In a way. The develop of humanism was due to the rediscovery of early Christian works that had been lost prior. Lost being more or less manuscripts in the hands of others such as Greek Orthodox and the remnants left in the hands of Christians and Muslims in Islamic states. The OT never advocated humanism since it had different rules for the in group and out group. Rather the concept of love and compassion in the NT is used as a basis. 

    Quote
    ..Zoroastrian religious saying are based upon some Tao.. Buddhism  sayings.....


    Neither developed humanism as each was still based on a concept of enlightenment based on religious teachers and rituals. Do X and you will gain a level of enlightenment. Both far more akin to Protestantism than Catholicism which make sense as Protestants follow far more of the OT than Catholics do.

    Quote
    ....  and  some Tao.. Buddhism  sayings  based upon sayings some pagans  .......


    Paganism is a generalization based on a Christian view point. Tao and Buddhism are pagan.

    Quote
    On that line of thinking we can go on all the way to origins of biology on the earth bogart.,


    The problem here is humans are not rational. We need to be taught to be rational and to use reason. If any particular humans believes in something you find irrational this already demonstrates my point. More so if you believe the very concept of God and thus beliefs developed from this point are irrational 99% of all humans that are and have been are irrational. Of course this is assuming that the one opposing such ideas and beliefs is rational to start. We tend to treat our ability to use reason and rational as an axiom. I reject this axiom.

    Quote
    Morality and Humanism  is very little to do with basic religious ideology of every religion .... and that is  this "god" figure in the minds of faith heads . Off course there are  and there were good people and good sayings in every religion 


    Humanism a Christian concept based on scripture. It is mostly religious in origin with a few minor points from Greek philosophy that were assimilated by early Christians thus considered the works of the early Church Fathers. Biology does nothing to dictate actually morality but society, in which religion in the primary pillar. We agree as a society regarding what is right or wrong, although this is often dictated by the majority at the time. Hence why our morality changes. Now considering religion have done far more to dictate what a society accepts than not even the basis of treating people with dignity is religious in origin, namely by a product/creation of a god. This separates us from the animals. While biology only shows we are more developed animals. It become a dangerous form of hubris in which being advanced due to biology means we are actually more capable of making sound judgments.
  • Arab Humanists
     Reply #11 - June 07, 2016, 06:52 PM

    Humanism is a Christian concept. .....................

    Evangelical Christianity is not mainstream Christianity. It is a fringe group that has few numbers outside of America.

    Humanism a Christian concept based on scripture. It is mostly religious in origin ...........

    Roman Catholicism invented humanism, it is mainstream Christianity by history, numbers, and organization. ..

    well there is lot on the plate to debate and discuss but let us start with the point of your highlighted repeated words  Humanism a Christian concept based on scripture.. for that you have to provide examples and verses from early Christianity and examples of  folks who followed those humanism verses.  

    you also said
    Quote
    Modern Humanism is based on Christianity of the 18th and 19th centuries.

    So as you said this modern humanism of 18th and 19th centuries. , is it different from that old humanism?? would it be possible modem humanism is NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY RELIGION ... but careful discussions with in enlighten group of educated folks led to that modern humanism., It is possible that  they happened to be Christians by birth ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Arab Humanists
     Reply #12 - June 07, 2016, 09:07 PM

    well there is lot on the plate to debate and discuss but let us start with the point of your highlighted repeated words  Humanism a Christian concept based on scripture.. for that you have to provide examples and verses from early Christianity and examples of  folks who followed those humanism verses.  


    The good Samaritan, made in God's image. Read Summa Theologica, I Tatti and Erasmus' poetry, Coluccius Salutatus's work On Tyranny, Leonardo Bruni's biography's of Dante, Petrarch, and Giovanni Boccaccio, Poggio Bracciolini books on Greek and Roman text. You can also note the shift in forms of art in Italy, France and Spain toward idealism while Protestant Europe still maintained iconography until decades later, notable when Protestants assimilated the Catholic support forms

    Quote
    you also said So as you said this modern humanism of 18th and 19th centuries. , is it different from that old humanism??


    It is a continuation of humanism post-enlightenment and post-renaissance as it's ideals spread beyond Catholicism and become assimilated by liberal Protestantism.

    Quote
    would it be possible modem humanism is NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY RELIGION ... but careful discussions with in enlighten group of educated folks led to that modern humanism., It is possible that  they happened to be Christians by birth ..


    I have no idea. I have yet to see it happen without invoking axioms that go well beyond the know limitation and failures of the proposed parameters, as per the manifesto, thus creating a god out of a tool we invented. It is one thing to say methodological naturalism works and is more reliable than revelation. It is another things to say metaphysical naturalism is true thus is a sound system. Reason is a tool but to say that reason will always guide the way to the greater good is flawed as the user of the tool is flawed.
  • Arab Humanists
     Reply #13 - June 08, 2016, 01:20 AM

    Quote
    It's not just some. Every point in that manifesto is the same from Christian Humanism which started centuries ago. Older traditions did not care about the individual but rather the community.

     

    "Christian Humanism" is already an evolved ideology of Christianity. I mean, we can do the same thing here, just call it "Buddhist Humanism". "Arab Humanism". Older traditions care MORE about community, but they still care about individuals, as long as everybody is a little bit selfish.

    Older Christian traditions also care more about the community rather than the individuals.

    Quote
    The idea of universal ideals is flawed as history shows various groups put limits upon who was considered worthy thus subject to these ideals and acts follow the view point.


    And Christianity doesn't? Christianity also puts limit on who's considered worthy and who isn't. Non-Christians? Out.

    Quote
    Read Summa Theologica, I Tatti and Erasmus' poetry, Coluccius Salutatus's work On Tyranny, Leonardo Bruni's biography's of Dante, Petrarch, and Giovanni Boccaccio, Poggio Bracciolini books on Greek and Roman text.


    But none of these people were the founding fathers of old Christianity. They inspired the modern Christian movement. All we have to do is have people to bridge old traditions and the humanism movement. There are many similar values already, and it's quite obvious when you see countries like Japan and Korea that's very secular (and humanist) without meddling with Christianity. There's also Singapore.
  • Arab Humanists
     Reply #14 - June 08, 2016, 04:05 AM

    Arabs are the fathers of science.
    Long list.
    Jabir bin haiyan
    Ibn sina
    Farabi
    Omar khayyam
    Mohammad khawarazmi

    And so on etc etc etc....

    But where did the downfall started?
    Even after islam, Arabs were doing great.


    I think you have some problem.
    Every thing I post, looks weird to you.


  • Arab Humanists
     Reply #15 - June 08, 2016, 02:25 PM

    Quote
    A long list:
    Jabir bin haiyan
    Ibn sina
    Farabi
    Omar khayyam
    Mohammad khawarazmi


    Jabir bin haiyan ("Geber"): Famous alchemist called "The father of chemistry".... but it seems that most of the texts attributed to him, are later writings. "Gibberish" actually is thought to refer to his manuscripts.

    Ibn sina: Had memorized the entire koran at 10, had learned all there was to physics, math and philosophy at 16, then used two years to become the greatest doctor the world had ever seen. You have to be a North Korean leader to beat that one! (He was Persian by the way. Persians are pretty insistent that they are NOT Arabs)

    Farabi: Is accredited with a lot. Most of what is known about him, is written a couple of hundred years after his death.

    Omar khayyam: He seems to be legit! (another Persian, by the way). He kicked some serious mathematical ass!

    Mohammad khawarazmi (Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi): He seems legit too, and was the guy who was instrumental in spreading the Indian numerals (to a degree that they ended up being considered "Arabic".
    He was a Persian too.


    Contributors, yes.
    The scientific method was not an Arab invention, but the widespread use of it, seems to have been applied in the Middle East around the year 1000. And that is a very important step.
    Ibn al-Haytham (Alhazen) did it regarding optics.

    "Fathers of Science", absolutely not.
  • Arab Humanists
     Reply #16 - June 08, 2016, 02:47 PM

    Arabs are the fathers of science.
    Long list.
    Jabir bin haiyan
    Ibn sina
    Farabi
    Omar khayyam
    Mohammad khawarazmi

    And so on etc etc etc....

    But where did the downfall started?
    Even after islam, Arabs were doing great.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_scientists

    that link under your post is useful to have mtexmuslim ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Arab Humanists
     Reply #17 - June 09, 2016, 03:16 PM



    "Christian Humanism" is already an evolved ideology of Christianity. I mean, we can do the same thing here, just call it "Buddhist Humanism". "Arab Humanism". Older traditions care MORE about community, but they still care about individuals, as long as everybody is a little bit selfish.


    Not really as the emphasis on the individual goes beyond merely caring about them within the community. Expression of the individual, which started with the shift to realism and idealism in art shows this. Previously expressions of humanity in art was based on social constructs in which those higher within society being depicted differently than those lower thus reinforcing the social order of society. The higher one was in social standing the greater the embellishment upon their image in art was made. Size, fitness, beauty, etc. The same, but in reverse, is true for those in low society are depicted as small, weak, ugly beings in comparison. In opposition was the development of human idealism in which merely commoners could obtain monarch like grandeur due to the divine spark within all of humanity, a Catholic concept within Christianity.

    Quote
    Older Christian traditions also care more about the community rather than the individuals.


    Certainly not. Paul repeatedly hammered home the point that the individual should not follow the dictates of the community solely based on authority, social standing or power. The rejection of the social and ritual commandments of Judaism is the rejection of the concept of the community being special, in this case a specific group are special due to birth and linage. Christianity emphasized individual salvation not communal or social based salvation.



    Quote
    And Christianity doesn't? Christianity also puts limit on who's considered worthy and who isn't. Non-Christians? Out.


    You missed the point. Within Christianity there is a basis for universal ideals via God. There is no justification for universal ideals outside of some invoked authority or grounding of being for everything.

    Quote
    But none of these people were the founding fathers of old Christianity.


    Read their work, it is based on the work of the early Fathers of the Church. The movement is might as well made Ad fontes "back to the fountain", "to the source" their motto.

    They inspired the modern Christian movement. All we have to do is have people to bridge old traditions and the humanism movement. [/quote]

    Yes. However is the abridging justified or not

    There are many similar values already, and it's quite obvious when you see countries like Japan [/quote]

    Try to be a citizen of Japan without being Japanese...... Let's not ignore the US edited constitution of Japan, the culture vacuum which followed, the embracement of Western ideals due to the war, occupation and continue presents of a Western power. Nor the influence of Christian traders since the 16th century. The Western model of their constitution.


    Quote
    and Korea that's very secular (and humanist) without meddling with Christianity.


    Christianity is followed by almost 30% of it's population. Likewise with Japan Korea has had influence with Christianity for centuries. Following the Korean it's constitution was a Western model. Also it was occupied by a Western power. It' various government were also supported by said power due to the conflicts with China and NK.

    Quote
    There's also Singapore.


    A former UK colony.....


    Any nation following a Western model of government is still influenced by Christianity unless it is communist. Even if communist the influence is there even if it is presented in the worst possible light.
  • Arab Humanists
     Reply #18 - June 09, 2016, 03:19 PM

    Arabs are the fathers of science.
    Long list.
    Jabir bin haiyan
    Ibn sina
    Farabi
    Omar khayyam
    Mohammad khawarazmi

    And so on etc etc etc....

    But where did the downfall started?
    Even after islam, Arabs were doing great.




    Like all downfalls star, economic and political conflict both internal and external. No one influence makes a people or nation great or low.
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