What type of muslim were you?

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OP - June 12, 2016, 07:31 AM

Salams to all,
Keen to know what kinda muslims you guys were, not just sunni or shia
what kinda sunni? which madhab did you follow?
What was your aqeedah? Salafi? Ashari?
Practicing? Literalist? Progressive? a Mystic?

How in depth were your islamic studies?
If you don't know what aqeedah or a madhab is, say so too please, as it would be indicative,

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Reply #1 - June 12, 2016, 11:18 AM

Conservative salafi/sunni, studied systematically with scholars for several years. However, gender perspective was always important for me and I would define myself as a feminist even when I was the staunchest salafi.

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Reply #2 - June 12, 2016, 11:25 AM

Quote from: ElRafa on June 12, 2016, 07:31 AM
indicative,

Lolz, of what?

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Reply #3 - June 12, 2016, 12:47 PM

Quote from: Cornflower on June 12, 2016, 11:18 AM
Conservative salafi/sunni, studied systematically with scholars for several years. However, gender perspective was always important for me and I would define myself as a feminist even when I was the staunchest salafi.

My hypothesis is that salafis apostasise the most of all groups,
-they dont have the tools to deal with contentions like the other schools which engage with philosophy,
-also because they have no understanding of the inward dimensions of islam
yani, many later come to view the practice of islam as a pointless obedience to a set of inexplicable rules

Thats why i say A salafi could study aqeedah their whole life, but a smart non muslim could easily make him or her a murtad in two weeks...

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Reply #4 - June 12, 2016, 12:48 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on June 12, 2016, 11:25 AM
Lolz, of what?

that the individual hasn't really gone that deep into their examination of islamic sciences

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Reply #5 - June 12, 2016, 12:53 PM

Yea, that's pretty much where I thought you were headed with this thread. That belief that many of us might have left Islam because we never really studied it hard enough, or perhaps were a sect of Islam that itself doesn't have much understanding.

You must know you aren't the first person to believe this about ex-Muslims. You certainly won't be the last either.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Reply #6 - June 12, 2016, 12:55 PM

Quote from: ElRafa on June 12, 2016, 12:48 PM
that the individual hasn't really gone that deep into their examination of ~~islamic sciences~~

huh! islamic sciences?? what is that?

hello ElRafa

what is islamic sciences?? Christian sciences?? Jewish Sciences?? Hindu sciences?? Buddhist sciences?? FAITH HEAD SCIENCES??

What the hell is that? that is not science ElRafa THAT IS NONSENSE.. plain nonsense

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Reply #7 - June 12, 2016, 01:49 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on June 12, 2016, 12:53 PM
Yea, that's pretty much where I thought you were headed with this thread. That belief that many of us might have left Islam because we never really studied it hard enough, or perhaps were a sect of Islam that itself doesn't have much understanding.

You must know you aren't the first person to believe this about ex-Muslims. You certainly won't be the last either.

actually i didn't say that at all,
if you read my post before, i noted that some muslims could study their whole lives and apostasise in two weeks

i dont believe theres any one reason people leave, for the record
just as theres lots of reasons why people convert

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Reply #8 - June 12, 2016, 01:50 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on June 12, 2016, 12:55 PM
huh! islamic sciences?? what is that?

hello ElRafa

what is islamic sciences?? Christian sciences?? Jewish Sciences?? Hindu sciences?? Buddhist sciences?? FAITH HEAD SCIENCES??

What the hell is that? that is not science ElRafa THAT IS NONSENSE.. plain nonsense

an appeasement,
Islamic studies*,

what is your islamic background may i ask?

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Reply #9 - June 12, 2016, 02:34 PM

Quote from: ElRafa on June 12, 2016, 01:50 PM
an appeasement, ..Islamic studies*,

Hmm.. An appeasement of Islamic Studies ? is that the definition of Islamic Science? then you should NOT use the word "Science"

Quote
what is your islamic background may i ask?

I come from Shia Islamic Background by birth., The real Muslim in the family was a wonderful person who made me what I am and that was Grand mother., beyond that I will not tell you anything that is related to my personal background., as a kid used to play in dargahs and so called shrines of Islam or where Muslim peers are buried.. Now they are getting bombed and blown away by other heroes of Islam

As far as Islamic scriptural, historical background is concerned I can safely say I READ MORE THAN WHAT YOU EVER READ ABOUT ISLAM.

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Reply #10 - June 12, 2016, 02:57 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on June 12, 2016, 12:55 PM

I come from Shia Islamic Background by birth., The real Muslim in the family was a wonderful person who made me what I am and that was Grand mother., beyond that I will not tell you anything that is related to my personal background., as a kid used to play in dargahs and so called shrines of Islam or where Muslim peers are buried.. Now they are getting bombed and blown away by other heroes of Islam

As far as Islamic scriptural, historical background is concerned I can safely say I READ MORE THAN WHAT YOU EVER READ ABOUT ISLAM.

i think i can safely say i have a few years on you to catch up, dw

but thats interesting, thanks,

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Reply #11 - June 12, 2016, 03:45 PM

So a friend reading this folder asked some simple questions that we can discuss here.,I guess He asked me because of my Shia Islamic background., questions are
Quote
1). What is your take home message of the Shia and Sunni narratives of Islam and their surrounding the succession of Caliphs/Imams?

2). do you favour a particular narrative, are they both false, in your view?

3). Can you tell something about particularly the surrounding events like the battle of the camel etc, where the schools have remarkably different details.

4). what about the death of fatima?

well all those question goes in to the early history of Islam..So let me put answers the way I understand Islamic history and I hope friends also will join in explaining those points., ..........

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Reply #12 - June 12, 2016, 04:20 PM

A HANDFUL OF RED EARTH DREAMS of RULERS in TABARI’S HISTORY of PROPHETS and KINGS

well that is a good one to read here w.r.t ElRafa's posts

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Reply #13 - June 12, 2016, 05:43 PM

Quote from: ElRafa on June 12, 2016, 12:47 PM
My hypothesis is that salafis apostasise the most of all groups,
-they dont have the tools to deal with contentions like the other schools which engage with philosophy,
-also because they have no understanding of the inward dimensions of islam
yani, many later come to view the practice of islam as a pointless obedience to a set of inexplicable rules

Thats why i say A salafi could study aqeedah their whole life, but a smart non muslim could easily make him or her a murtad in two weeks...

I'd agree with you that salafi Islam does tend to rob the religion of its philosophical and spiritual elements, but those elements have never been unique to Islam, nor do they prove its truth. Philosophy and spirituality are the products of humanity and have existed in all cultures in one form or another, both because of and in spite of the prevailing religious tradition.

Those from Islamic backgrounds would do better to realize this, in my opinion, because it would give then something to have in common with people from other traditions, rather than giving them reasons to falsely feel superior to others.
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Reply #14 - June 12, 2016, 11:56 PM

Quote from: ElRafa on June 12, 2016, 12:47 PM
My hypothesis is that salafis apostasise the most of all groups,
-they dont have the tools to deal with contentions like the other schools which engage with philosophy,
-also because they have no understanding of the inward dimensions of islam
yani, many later come to view the practice of islam as a pointless obedience to a set of inexplicable rules

Thats why i say A salafi could study aqeedah their whole life, but a smart non muslim could easily make him or her a murtad in two weeks...

But you have the "Correct Islam TM"?

But I think you have a good point here: "many later come to view the practice of islam as a pointless obedience to a set of inexplicable rules".
Apart from the part, that you could change it to:
"many later come to view the practice of (insert religion of choice here) as a pointless obedience to a set of inexplicable rules".

The more extreme a religion, the sooner people should see that it is utter bullshit.
But that may not be the case. Extremists care for their group identity and love confirming to each other, that the rest of the world are sinners who will burn in hell.

Maybe it is more a case of "the more extreme a religion is, the more noise it is likely to make when you leave it"?

If I look at the boring Danish protestant lutheran state church, members are leaving in their thousands. In later years something along the lines of 20.000 per year.
Quite a few, considering that there is somewhere around 4,4 million members.

It is an old church, moderate, well established rituals and so on. In no way extreme.
And you apostatise by sending a letter with "I quit" and the reaction is a polite reply confirming your decision, and that "you are no longer a member as of this date".
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Reply #15 - June 13, 2016, 12:25 AM

Quote from: ibn Bilal on June 12, 2016, 05:43 PM
I'd agree with you that salafi Islam does tend to rob the religion of its philosophical and spiritual elements, but those elements have never been unique to Islam, nor do they prove its truth. Philosophy and spirituality are the products of humanity and have existed in all cultures in one form or another, both because of and in spite of the prevailing religious tradition.

Those from Islamic backgrounds would do better to realize this, in my opinion, because it would give then something to have in common with people from other traditions, rather than giving them reasons to falsely feel superior to others.

of course, all religions have spiritual aspects, particularly the eastern religions, however i do believe that there is proof in islam, it resonates with me, i can see and feel its truth

I maybe deluded but to be honest i don't really care, so what i never wake up after death... and there is no afterlife
you win, congratulations
but i don't see how reforming my character, polishing my heart and purifying my soul, striving for the pleasure of what i believe to be the transcendent justice, mercy and origin of this universe is going to make me a loser in any way,
and if i do turn out to be right, then the disbelievers lose,
and that's exactly what the qur'an says, they will be amongst the losers...

nonetheless,
i tend to take the view that there is considerable validity in all religions,
perhaps Confucius, Krishna and Buddha are prophets too, Allahu alam,
naturally as a muslim i believe islam to be the best, otherwise i wouldn't be a muslim,

Although Ibn 'Arabi said,
"Beware of confining yourself to a particular belief and denying all else, for much good would elude you - indeed, the knowledge of reality would elude you. Be in yourself a matter for all forms of belief, for God is too vast and tremendous to be restricted to one belief rather than another."

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Reply #16 - June 13, 2016, 12:30 AM

I think you got a tense response, OP, because of the implication that you're less likely to leave Islam if you are more educated in the matter, so for many of us, our apostasy is an issue of ignorance.

Still, man, we've been met with worse, and you were kind to clarify that you thought there were many different reasons.

I'll say that I wasn't a particularly good or traditional Muslim. I had a much different run through Islam than, say, Cornflower and ibn Bilal did, but we reached similar conclusions. I was briefly Sunni, and then went to the familiar final stop before apostasy as a Quranist. So you have me there.

Although, from my layman's perspective, I find it hard to accept that Islam and salvation and an escape from the place where polytheists and apostates and hypocrites are the coals of hellfire requires such a nuanced, rigorous curriculum that many of us would've been lucky to encounter...and that those of us who are so well-educated in Islam might, in two weeks, find themselves more than an arms' length away from the Fire, anyway. Seems unfair and unkind to me, but maybe that's because I haven't been enlightened with the true definitions of fairness and compassion.

You sound like an intelligent and polite person, though, from this one thread I've seen you in, so I hope you stick around. I'll try to understand you, and hopefully you'll try to understand me, and maybe we'll both learn something?
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Reply #17 - June 13, 2016, 12:31 AM

Religions are a lot like food. All have some form of nutrition. Some do more harm than others. And your preferences will largely depend on what you were exposed to and grew a taste for.
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Reply #18 - June 13, 2016, 12:31 AM

Quote from: Ursus on June 12, 2016, 11:56 PM
But you have the "Correct Islam TM"?

Did i state that? if that's the implication you're getting from my posts then to clarify, that's not my belief
i think fanaticism is opposed to guidance, as Ghazali says, it veils the individual from God,
and religion becomes a badge you wear or a jersey you pull on which makes you superior to others

the guided ones are those who are humble, merciful, patient and content. doesn't matter what sect they claim to follow, its for the most part irrelevant, although i do see an inherent problem with some elements of the contemporary salafi movement

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Reply #19 - June 13, 2016, 12:47 AM

Quote from: ElRafa on June 13, 2016, 12:25 AM
.....
I maybe deluded but to be honest i don't really care, so what i never wake up after death... and there is no afterlife
you win, congratulations
but i don't see how reforming my character, polishing my heart and purifying my soul, striving for the pleasure of what i believe to be the transcendent justice, mercy and origin of this universe is going to make me a loser in any way,
and if i do turn out to be right, then the disbelievers lose,
and that's exactly what the qur'an says, they will be amongst the losers...
.......

Since you are so learned, I'm sure you know about "Pascal's wager"?

You are setting up your very own version here, and just like Pascal, you are miscalculating the odds.
The wager is built on the logical fallacy of bifurcation. You believe, that either your invisible magic friend exists, or there can be no such thing at all.
But there are at least 22 religions with more than 500.000 adherents (and the atheists), meaning that your odds are not 1:1, but maybe more likely to be 1:22

And you base your specific superstition on Jehova. How can you be so sure, that Mo wasn't just a charlatan and a false prophet, who used his revelations as a cover for epileptic fits (because who wants a leader, who may topple over with spasms in the heat of battle?)
Jehova is not exactly a kind and forgiving god. Look him up in the OT, you have to look hard, to find a more mean and vengeful bastard.

You could be in big trouble in the afterlife.
(And based on your own arguments, you are far more likely to be in trouble than to get a chance to gloat)
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Reply #20 - June 13, 2016, 12:49 AM

Sunni, Hanafi. Studied as much as I could of the Quran, with tafseer before I realized there was no evidence for any of the supernatural claims of Islam.

Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
how fuck works without shit??

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Reply #21 - June 13, 2016, 01:01 AM

Quote from: Ursus on June 13, 2016, 12:47 AM
Since you are so learned, I'm sure you know about "Pascal's wager"?

You are setting up your very own version here, and just like Pascal, you are miscalculating the odds.
The wager is built on the logical fallacy of bifurcation. You believe, that either your invisible magic friend exists, or there can be no such thing at all.
But there are at least 22 religions with more than 500.000 adherents (and the atheists), meaning that your odds are not 1:1, but maybe more likely to be 1:22

And you base your specific superstition on Jehova. How can you be so sure, that Mo wasn't just a charlatan and a false prophet, who used his revelations as a cover for epileptic fits (because who wants a leader, who may topple over with spasms in the heat of battle?)
Jehova is not exactly a kind and forgiving god. Look him up in the OT, you have to look hard, to find a more mean and vengeful bastard.

You could be in big trouble in the afterlife.
(And based on your own arguments, you are far more likely to be in trouble than to get a chance to gloat)

im not learned, nor do i claim to be

he might have been false, and it doesn't matter what argument i come up with, you'd find some form of refutation and a counter point of your own just for a more learned muslim to have the response already prepared, and its back and forth like a perpetual tennis match
that's how comparative religion goes, a selection of the same dot points wheeled out over and over again

but as i said, for me its a personal belief based on my experiences and whats resonated and ive been trawn to
if i am wrong, and you could say exactly the same thing, then god in all his mercy has allowed me to become gravely misguided

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Reply #22 - June 13, 2016, 01:11 AM

Quote from: asbie on June 13, 2016, 12:49 AM
Sunni, Hanafi. Studied as much as I could of the Quran, with tafseer before I realized there was no evidence for any of the supernatural claims of Islam.

empirical evidence for supernatural claims?
of course there isnt,

but i dont believe empiricism to be a sound means of ascertaining reality

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Reply #23 - June 13, 2016, 01:24 AM

Devoted Hanafi, Salafist leanings led to a three year study of apologist lit during my perfect seven year run. I then spent just as many years not praying before it dawned on me that adherence to cultural tradition was ruining the lives of my children and robbing them of normal development.
So I got out of religion in stages after that first step of getting my kids to safety. It took about a year.
I suppose I was a liberal dreamy sort of Muslim, the type who was afraid to show a wisp of hair and got high from doing sajda, but believed all that about peace and acceptance and people of the book. I was first addicted to salaat and later to dhikr and giving sadaqah.

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Reply #24 - June 13, 2016, 01:32 AM

Quote from: ElRafa on June 13, 2016, 01:11 AM
empirical evidence for supernatural claims?
of course there isnt,

but i dont believe empiricism to be a sound means of ascertaining reality

How about any evidence that is at all convincing?

It's far more likely that a desert dweller made up some stories to heighten his own self-importance, compared to any of the alternative explanations that involve supernatural intervention.

Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
how fuck works without shit??

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Reply #25 - June 13, 2016, 02:42 AM

He's saying evidence doesn't apply here. He's being fair and saying it's his personal beliefs and this speaks to him and he could be wrong. This is how religion should be done.
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Reply #26 - June 13, 2016, 04:30 AM

^I think people deserve to understand what is true and not true, without it, they are putting their faith in most likely mythology instead of evidence which is dangerous.

This is why people FELT Islam is true and many died in Karachi Pakistan a few years ago. The evidence was that they were hours from dying from dehydration in their heat, but they wanted to struggle for mythology and took reward from Allah over reason from Doctors and they paid for it with their life, it seems harmless but it manifests itself in ugly ways in people's lives

As a scientist I can see farther than any human before me by standing on the shoulders of giants (previous scientists); As a religious follower I can not see what is right in-front of me, even when others INDEPENDENTLY see the same thing!
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Reply #27 - June 13, 2016, 06:31 AM

Quote from: afghan hassan on June 13, 2016, 04:30 AM
^I think people deserve to understand what is true and not true, without it, they are putting their faith in most likely mythology instead of evidence which is dangerous.

This is why people FELT Islam is true and many died in Karachi Pakistan a few years ago. The evidence was that they were hours from dying from dehydration in their heat, but they wanted to struggle for mythology and took reward from Allah over reason from Doctors and they paid for it with their life, it seems harmless but it manifests itself in ugly ways in people's lives

Whats your islamic background?

id say thats a form of fanaticism, to ignore science and medicine...
none of my teachers have told me that i shouldn't take drugs to heal my illnesses because Allah swt will do so in his place, I've never even encountered this view in the different communities

And besides, if fasting becomes too much, your shari' obliged to break it, this is a well known condition,

People will do all kinds of things in the name of all kinds of things that are stupid,

Do you honestly think Al Ghazali, Ibn Sina, Ibn Rushd, Ibn Arabi, Abu Hanifa, Imam Shafi'i, Ibn Khaldun and the many great minds of Islamic History would suggest that we should not use medicine and that we should ignore experts and doctors?

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Reply #28 - June 13, 2016, 06:43 AM

Quote from: ElRafa on June 12, 2016, 07:31 AM
Salams to all,
Keen to know what kinda muslims you guys were, not just sunni or shia
what kinda sunni? which madhab did you follow?
What was your aqeedah? Salafi? Ashari?
Practicing? Literalist? Progressive? a Mystic?

How in depth were your islamic studies?
If you don't know what aqeedah or a madhab is, say so too please, as it would be indicative,

Sunni,Ibn Hanbal, Salafi.

I dont believe that Qur'an is truly the word of God but I do appreciate Islamic history and some aspects of it philosophy it has contributed to mankind.

"I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

"No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
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Reply #29 - June 13, 2016, 10:08 AM

Quote from: Cato on June 13, 2016, 06:43 AM
Sunni,Ibn Hanbal, Salafi.

I dont believe that Qur'an is truly the word of God but I do appreciate Islamic history and some aspects of it philosophy it has contributed to mankind.

People who apostasise for that reason can come from anywhere, there are a few in this mould nowadays,
Farhan Qureshi i think is similar, he respects or at least appreciates islam for the most part, he just doesn't believe it to be reality,
this is an honest and undogmatic conclusion i think

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