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 Topic: Are we really being reasonable?

 (Read 3853 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Are we really being reasonable?
     OP - June 13, 2016, 04:41 PM
    Hey, so we all know Quran 4:34, BUT, in Islam everything is Halal unless specified against it. That is the widely held belief of modern and contemporary scholars. This is because if everything that was halal had to be written out in the quran, it would be infinite because times would change and there would be tons of possible combinations of things for people to do, so instead Islam tells what is NOT allowed.

    4:34 tells muslim men it is halal to tap their wives (ceremonial hitting), but it does not say anything regarding the women that is Haram for them, therefore women are allowed to BEAT their husbands, of course this is repulsive and most muslims will try to wiggle out of that, but, it allows women to ceremonially tap their husbands nonetheless, so if we look at it this way, doesn't that level the playing field between husband and wife if we disregarded men can not sleep with wife but wife has to sleep with husband no matter what, I think it should have been explicit on rights of wife, but if we disregard that, does this sound somewhat reasonable to you guys?

    Disclaimer- I am ex muslim but I dont want to be close minded and brush off their views,
    As a scientist I can see farther than any human before me by standing on the shoulders of giants (previous scientists); As a religious follower I can not see what is right in-front of me, even when others INDEPENDENTLY see the same thing!
  • Are we really being reasonable?
     Reply #1 - June 13, 2016, 05:52 PM
    Nah I think marital problems could be solved without resorting to domestic violence. But what do I know. Maybe my wife should beat me every once in a while. I'll find out in another life I guess.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Are we really being reasonable?
     Reply #2 - June 13, 2016, 06:00 PM
    ^No no, of course you should never resort to violence, but I was just thinking as a thinking exercise if it was fair for muslims to say that the wife can "beat" their husbands too even though it does not say that in the quran explicitly and whether or not that is an honest position to take, because that may seem like a cop out from our perspective but it fits the ways the determine halal from haram. I don't know
    As a scientist I can see farther than any human before me by standing on the shoulders of giants (previous scientists); As a religious follower I can not see what is right in-front of me, even when others INDEPENDENTLY see the same thing!
  • Are we really being reasonable?
     Reply #3 - June 13, 2016, 06:14 PM
    Tap their wives?  mate, I believe it says they can beat their wives.

    The Quran makes no mention of ceremonial tapping.  It is external explanations outside of the Quran that make it ceremonial tapping. 

    The Quran itself says beat. 

    I also think the reason it makes no mention of whether women can return the favour, is purely because it was written by sexist men who didn't believe women were capable of it. 

    I guess however, that following your interpretation, the lack of any mention puts it in that grey area of halal, ergo if using the Quran only, men can beat their wives (explicit halal) and women can beat their husbands (hidden halal).  Grin

    Although that does question where the idea of 'halal if not mentioned' comes from.  is it in the Quran, or is it too, an external interpretation based on hadith etc, and if it is external, then in order to accept that, one must also accept the hadiths explicit references to a woman's place.   wacko
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Are we really being reasonable?
     Reply #4 - June 13, 2016, 06:52 PM
    Maybe women must beat men with the koran?
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Are we really being reasonable?
     Reply #5 - June 13, 2016, 08:21 PM
    Lol, no I was going off muslim appologists saying shit like oh it is ceremonial tapping cuz I believed Hadith clarifies that it can not cause pain, or bruise, and must be the size of a miswak, if it doesn't accomplish anything, WHY THE HELL IS IT PRESCRIBED.

    Because I do not know how people can keep the quran and leave hadith, I believe the Quran says Muhammad is the best of character, and perfect, and need to follow him and shit like that and when that is the case, his sayings need to be followed.

    No I was going off of Islamic Jurisprudence (Fiqh), and in it when scholars who study text carefully unanimously agree if it is not explicitly Haram or Makruh, it is then considered halal.

    And if it is not stated, there is no special way for a wife to deal with her husband, so she can go ape shit on his ass the first time he bothers her because Islam does not tell wives how to discipline their husbands, I am thinking BDSM lol (So this is how muslim feminists find some way to get around the apparent misogyny, they find some feminism between the line lol)
    As a scientist I can see farther than any human before me by standing on the shoulders of giants (previous scientists); As a religious follower I can not see what is right in-front of me, even when others INDEPENDENTLY see the same thing!
  • Are we really being reasonable?
     Reply #6 - June 13, 2016, 09:49 PM
    The Quran doesn't say woman can or cannot discipline their husbands because... It is already expected for  women to be passive and submissive to their spouses. While women to encouraged to gently provide advice or use religion to help guide their husbands when they are "erring", being direct or assertive about it is either not presented as a valid approach or frowned upon
  • Are we really being reasonable?
     Reply #7 - June 15, 2016, 11:30 AM
    I would love to be beaten by my wife.

  • Are we really being reasonable?
     Reply #8 - June 15, 2016, 08:20 PM
    Quote from: cellphone2016 on June 15, 2016, 11:30 AM
    I would love to be beaten by my wife.




    Grin

    Okay, I was joking, but for serious cellphone2016? And like in a kinky sexual BDSM way, or are you just winding us up?
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Are we really being reasonable?
     Reply #9 - June 17, 2016, 03:11 PM
    A violent relationship is of course, a horrible situation for anyone (male or female) to be in and should not be joked about.

    However, pain is definitely not always a bad or negative feeling.
  • Are we really being reasonable?
     Reply #10 - June 17, 2016, 03:18 PM
    Quote from: jrg on June 17, 2016, 03:11 PM
    .................
    However, pain is definitely not always a bad ...............


    That is an interesting way of thinking . Stressor(pain) indeed is   one  very  important  reason for biological evolution,  which Darwin worded beautifully in that book   

    “Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals, directly follows. There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.”
    ― Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Are we really being reasonable?
     Reply #11 - June 17, 2016, 03:42 PM
    Quote from: afghan hassan on June 13, 2016, 04:41 PM
    Hey, so we all know Quran 4:34, BUT, in Islam everything is Halal unless specified against it. That is the widely held belief of modern and contemporary scholars. This is because if everything that was halal had to be written out in the quran, it would be infinite because times would change and there would be tons of possible combinations of things for people to do, so instead Islam tells what is NOT allowed.

    4:34 tells muslim men it is halal to tap their wives (ceremonial hitting), but it does not say anything regarding the women that is Haram for them, therefore women are allowed to BEAT their husbands, of course this is repulsive and most muslims will try to wiggle out of that, but, it allows women to ceremonially tap their husbands nonetheless, so if we look at it this way, doesn't that level the playing field between husband and wife if we disregarded men can not sleep with wife but wife has to sleep with husband no matter what, I think it should have been explicit on rights of wife, but if we disregard that, does this sound somewhat reasonable to you guys?

    Disclaimer- I am ex muslim but I dont want to be close minded and brush off their views,


    4:34 explains what a man can do if they fear "rebellion" (nushooz) - they can hit their wives.

    But what people forget is that in verse 4:128 it explains what a wife can do if she fears "rebellion" (nushooz same word but never translated as rebellion). No she can't hit him. She can make a peace/agreement with him (sulh).

    Scholars explain that means she can be forgiving to him, give up some of her rights, or dress up and be sexy for him.

    How nice & fair... and reasonable.

    "If a wife fears desertion (nushooz نشوز)from her husband, neither of them will be blamed if they come to a peaceful settlement, for peace is best." (Qur'an 4:128)
  • Are we really being reasonable?
     Reply #12 - June 17, 2016, 04:18 PM
    Quote from: jrg on June 17, 2016, 03:11 PM
    A violent relationship is of course, a horrible situation for anyone (male or female) to be in and should not be joked about.


    You are of course right jrg. I apologize if my own post seemed to be making light of that.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Are we really being reasonable?
     Reply #13 - June 17, 2016, 05:49 PM
    Quote from: jrg on June 17, 2016, 03:11 PM
    A violent relationship is of course, a horrible situation for anyone (male or female) to be in and should not be joked about.

    However, pain is definitely not always a bad or negative feeling.


    Well, I joke about it all the damn time. I reserve it as my right. You gotta get some sort of privilege out of it besides PTSD.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Are we really being reasonable?
     Reply #14 - June 17, 2016, 07:58 PM
    three, although I was referring to flippant comments, I can't argue with what you've said here. Humour is indeed a useful coping mechanism.

    asbie, it did grate me a little bit, but only because I'm so over cautious when talking about abuse, in its various forms. Having two people very close to me who have been victims, you never know what may trigger a flashback.

    My comment was more of a reminder/warning for other people, not aimed at you. Perhaps though, an unnecessary one. I know you meant nothing by it and everyone here knows you well enough to know that, too Smiley
  • Are we really being reasonable?
     Reply #15 - July 03, 2016, 01:23 PM
    Quote from: cellphone2016 on June 15, 2016, 11:30 AM
    I would love to be beaten by my wife.
    Quote from: cellphone2016 on June 15, 2016, 11:30 AM
    I would love to be beaten by my wife.




    Amen to that.

    Afghan Hassan I think you are clutching at straws here but I understand we want to find a middle way in dealing with the Muzzies and our own anger/resentment (well mine anyway) around the idiosyncracies of the Quran.

    Brings to mind a novel called City of Stairs where there is a god (one of many) called Kolkan who controls EVERY aspect of his believers lives and actually gives Allah a good run for his money in terms of OCD. I think this is the overarching nonsense of the Quran that it prescribes these clunky medieval processes to intimate aspects of life.

    No I don't think most Muzzies beat their wives or even condone it mostly because their innate humanity shines through the belief system, BUT I do think most Muzzies believe that God did say this stuff and that on its own is crazy enough for me. To pray to such an insecure, meddling, weird ego - projected despot is beyond me.

  • Are we really being reasonable?
     Reply #16 - July 03, 2016, 01:39 PM
    Quote from: cellphone2016 on June 15, 2016, 11:30 AM
    I would love to be beaten by my wife.


    Me too. By yours, I mean.
  • Are we really being reasonable?
     Reply #17 - July 03, 2016, 03:22 PM
    Way to turn the kink up to 11.  Cheesy
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
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