Rules of war in Islam - do you agree?

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- ElToro
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Rules of war in Islam - do you agree?
OP - July 19, 2016, 07:36 PM

I just saw this picture on 9gag. Do you know if it's correct? In the end ISIS is really taking serious to not do anything the prophet wouldn't have done.
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Reply #1 - July 19, 2016, 08:28 PM

From what I was taught as a child, it seems correct.

I remember, as a child, I use to argue that Al Qaeda are not Muslims because their actions did not conform with the Islamic Rules of War. It is probably correct to say that their actions are not Islamic rather than they are not Muslims.

I'm not sure though where the teachings come from as I learnt it from a book about the Life of Muhammad. It is possible that those teachings originate in the Hadiths, not the Quran, so the person who created that might be wrong.
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Reply #2 - July 20, 2016, 06:41 PM

I'd add another rule of war that isn't on that list, but one that ISIS use, and that is burning people. Not allowed to do it, since fire is Allah's punishment.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Reply #3 - July 20, 2016, 07:49 PM

Edit below
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Reply #4 - July 20, 2016, 08:13 PM

When I see something like the picture above posted as an example of how ISIS and other extremists are going AGAINST Islam, I cringe a little. Because although I of course support a peaceful view of Islam, I really don't think we will bring about change unless we start being brutally honest. And the truth is this is only part of the story.

Like any view in Islam: It depends... It depends on what bits you choose to follow and what bits you choose to ignore or how you interpret them.

The Qur'an and Hadith are full of contradictions. Every group in Islam justifies it's actions by selecting the verses & Hadith that suit them and interpreting them in the way they want.

As I keep saying there is no single Islam - but many Islams.

For example yes killing civilians is prohibited in Hadith. Yet those who defended the twin towers attack for example claimed they were not civilians since they were actively working to support the evil taghoot financial system that buys the guns that kills our children blah blah blah...

Yes the prophet said don't cut down a tree, kill the old etc... But then those who do it quote the many verses which says you can retaliate to the enemy in a like manner - so they say they slaughter our old and young si we can blah blah blah...

Yes the prophet said do not mutilate, but the Qur'an also says strike off their heads and finger tips...

Another favourite Hadith of extremists is when the prophet was using the weapon that slings fireballs (forget what it's called) on Ta'if. One of the companions said but there are women and children there. He replied "They are of them"

Now don't get me wrong I'm definitely not saying ISIS are right, but they are not completely wrong either. The fact is ALL the groups whether moderate or extreme use valid Islamic sources to either justify peace or violence. Each is selective. Each dismisses what they want as "inauthentic" or "weak". Each interprets it as they please.

The solution to ISIS is not to pretend they have NOTHING to with Islam, but to recognise there are things in Islam we need to confront. Until we do that we will get nowhere!!
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Rules of war in Islam - do you agree?
Reply #5 - July 20, 2016, 08:20 PM

To add to your point:

Quote
Yes the prophet said don't cut down a tree...

But the Qur'an says:

Quote
مَا قَطَعْتُم مِّن لِّينَةٍ أَوْ تَرَكْتُمُوهَا قَائِمَةً عَلَى أُصُولِهَا فَبِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ وَلِيُخْزِيَ الْفَاسِقِينَ

Whatever tender palm-tree you cut down or leave it standing upon its roots, it is by Allah's permission, and that He may disgrace the transgressors. 59:5
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Reply #6 - July 20, 2016, 08:32 PM

Quote from: Hassan on July 20, 2016, 08:13 PM

The solution to ISIS is not to pretend they have NOTHING to with Islam, but to recognise there are things in Islam we need to confront. Until we do that we will get nowhere!!

I agree.

I argued the same thing on the independent newspaper, on an article by a Muslim that was basically stating this had nothing to do with the real islam.

I said the author had missed a perfect chance to talk about the differences in interpretations and beliefs in Islam.

Then an Ahmadi Muslim started to argue I was wrong, because you know, his was the real Islam.

I kept trying to make him understand that as long as he kept stating that his version was the real version, and people could google and find that the bad stuff does exist in literal readings, then everytime a Muslim spoke, they would be seen as liar.

The problem that I see is that Muslims are seen as one homogeneous Islamic group, and this means that any Muslim arguing from a position of 'No, this is what it actually says, the other stuff is a lie', simply comes across as a liar.

What I wish is that Muslims would start talking about the differences in the sects/traditions, that they would admit on TV that the horrible passages did exist, but that they were of a sect/group that had reformed to remove/reinterpret those things.

Christians have nut case psychos, as do Jews, but no one sees those groups as mainstream, as the religion isn't seen homogeneously.

Westboro Baptist church for example are seen as a lunatic fringe group. That's how ISIS must come to be seen, and that can't happen as long as Muslims refuse to admit that these bad things are written, and that there is no such thing as a monolithic version of Islam.

But they don't, they just keep saying 'This is the real islam, look at these nice passages', which does nothing to stop people finding the bad passages, and calling them liars.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Reply #7 - July 20, 2016, 08:51 PM

Exactly, Berbs! I've been banging my head about this for so long it hurts lol
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Reply #8 - July 20, 2016, 08:59 PM

Yes, thanks for that verse ibn Bilal. (59:5).
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Reply #9 - July 20, 2016, 09:02 PM

Quote from: Hassan on July 20, 2016, 08:51 PM
Exactly, Berbs! I've been banging my head about this for so long it hurts lol

I know the feeling, I gave up arguing with him in the end because I just couldn't take it anymore.

No matter what I said, he just kept arguing that the Ahmadi tradition was the true one, and if you look see, all these good passages, blah blah blah.

Head - wall - bang - indeed.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Reply #10 - July 20, 2016, 10:48 PM

Quote from: ElToro on July 19, 2016, 07:36 PM
I just saw this picture on 9gag. Do you know if it's correct? In the end ISIS is really taking serious to not do anything the prophet wouldn't have done.

(Clicky for piccy!)

The concepts of total war and industrialized military production have been used by Muslim nations and as part of the fading colonial empires they were part of since WW2, at least. Rather than argue over what Islam is, or isn't, press the issue. Ask them tough questions. Namely "what would you do?". Far too often people only wish to discussion a nostalgia based position divorced from the reality of a situation. Civilians being part of the military complex has been established for almost a century and a half. Get with the times
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Reply #11 - July 21, 2016, 02:16 AM

Quote from: ElToro on July 19, 2016, 07:36 PM
I just saw this picture on 9gag. Do you know if it's correct? In the end ISIS is really taking serious to not do anything the prophet wouldn't have done.

(Clicky for piccy!)

one has to give surah name and verse number., otherwise one should not trust cut and paste of few words from here & there .,

There was NO Prophet Muhammad in Islam., at best there was a good preacher of Islam whose aim was telling folks that "god can not have a son" ..and worshiping idols and stones is no use.,..but then what is this allah? it is different form of stone.. stone in brain

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Reply #12 - July 21, 2016, 07:50 AM

Thanks for your reply Hassan. Good comment.

@yeezevee: yes, your right. I didn't trust it, that's why I asked you guys for your opinion.
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Reply #13 - July 21, 2016, 08:29 AM

Quote from: Hassan on July 20, 2016, 08:51 PM
Exactly, Berbs! I've been banging my head about this for so long it hurts lol

Are there any sword verses in the Quran which are outright discriminatory and leave no room for a more moderate interpretation? Take one of the most quoted and criticised, verse 9.29, as an example:

''Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.''

A moderate interpretation of this, I suppose, is that only applies to non-Muslims living in an Islamic state who actively refuse to pay the Jizyah. Most Muslims would argue that it simply doesn't apply in a Western context. Obviously after this conclusion there's a secondary point that the Jizyah is itself discriminatory to which one could point to the supposed privileged status of non-Muslim groups in an Islamic state.
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Reply #14 - July 21, 2016, 11:27 AM

Regarding "don't kill children" I remember the incident where 800 - 1000 Jews were slaughtered. Every boy was checked for pubes and if he had any he was killed.

Now, we could argue if a boy who has just grown some pubes is still are child or not. But for me it is clear that these teenagers are still kids.
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