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 Topic: Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?

 (Read 19801 times)
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  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     OP - October 07, 2016, 08:22 AM

    I was surprised someone on this forum called her a liar. What's there to lie about when you're from Somalia and a public murtad? Christopher Hitchens eloquently described her as

    "a refugee from genital mutilation, forced marriage, and civil war... a symbol of the resistance, by many women from the Muslim world, to gender apartheid, "honour" killing, genital mutilation, and other horrors of clerical repression. She has been a very clear and courageous voice against the ongoing attack on our civilisation mounted by exactly the same forces... (via) an extremely arduous journey from something very like chattel slavery to a full mental and intellectual emancipation from theocracy".

    Why would any ex-Muslim dislike her?
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #1 - October 07, 2016, 10:11 AM

    Because she's allying herself with right-wing racists.

    She's becoming more rational now to be honest.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #2 - October 07, 2016, 11:41 AM

    I was surprised someone on this forum called her a liar. What's there to lie about when you're from Somalia and a public murtad?
    Christopher Hitchens eloquently described her as

    "a refugee from genital mutilation, forced marriage, and civil war... a symbol of the resistance, by many women from the Muslim world, to gender apartheid, "honour" killing, genital mutilation, and other horrors of clerical repression.

    Who said that and what was the reason for some one from this forum to say that she was lying dear fajfall??

    And what is wrong with lying ?

    THERE  IS NO  ONE  OUT THERE  DEAD OR ALIVE FROM THIS EARTH WHO DID NOT LIE DURING THEIR LIFE TIME. ALL PROPHETS LIED.

    And  and that goes to every one including to those who were called as Prophets messengers  gods or whatever.   I say when it comes to faiths and faith heads,  they lie all the time knowingly or unknowingly. I lied many many times and I STILL LIE.  

    Question is not that., Question is how do these lies  or how did those lies effect or affect others around them?  that is  important,  very important  point to keep in mind when it comes to someone telling lies.
    Quote
    She has been a very clear and courageous voice against the ongoing attack on our civilization mounted by exactly the same forces(BY FAITH HEADS WITH BABOON IDEAS/IDEOLOGY)...
    (via) an extremely arduous journey from something very like chattel slavery to a full mental and intellectual emancipation from theocracy".

     well let me replace a word or two from your post..

    There is little doubt on that......  on her courage..... and  yes,  she is very clear about her ideas.  This I think even those who said that "she lied" will agree with her courage . These fellows who say/said .. "she lied" must know  that they have  every right to question her and her ideas/books/lies  whatever ..
    Quote
    Why would any ex-Muslim dislike her?

    well  because  ALL EX-MUSLIMS ARE NOT EXACTLY SAME.,  THEY ARE NOT CLONES OF FIRST EX-MUSLIM., In the same way All Muslims are not exactly same  and they are there are not clone/clowns of first Muslim . Plenty of variations and mutations are out there.    And  again  Ex-M or not,  people must have rights to question any one, any faith  and their ideas at any time and any where in public or private.

    Anyways  I am so glad to read you.

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #3 - October 07, 2016, 11:52 AM

    She helps feed an negative stereotype that goes beyond ex-muslim into something political.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #4 - October 07, 2016, 12:03 PM

    She helps feed an negative stereotype that goes beyond ex-muslim into something political.

    well bogart I say that is not right way to say.. let me rephrase them..
    Quote
    "negative stereotype  take her words and use them for political purposes which sometimes  may go   beyond ex-muslims and their  problems ."

    But here we must realize she has every right to criticize  Islam"The Faith"  that intrudes in to personal and political space of individuals.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #5 - October 08, 2016, 03:00 PM

    Quote
    Why would any ex-Muslim dislike her?


    Ayaan is the Darling of the Right Wing/Neoconservatives and a lot of what she says, especially when she talks about Reformation, is catered for a Right Wing Racist audience who want to be able to talk about negative aspects of Islam in a simplistic manner.

    She is an amateur when it comes to talking about extremism and Muslims, just watch her joint platform with Maajid Nawaz and pay attentions to how both of them categorise Muslims in order to fit their narrative (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV_GMeZ_XmA).

    She uses dehumanising categories like 'Medinan Muslim' and 'Meccan Muslim' to try explain differences between the worlds Muslim populations which is completely out of touch with reality and compared to Maajid's categories, 'Traditional Muslim', 'Islamist Muslim' and 'Jihadist Muslim', it doesn't make sense how anyone can actually take her seriously. BTW, Maajid's categories are deficient as well, especially in his use of the term 'Islamist', but at least he humanises the majority of Traditionalist Muslims unlike Ayaan who gives of a perceptions of Muslims being like mindless drones who are governed by what section of the Quran they read/follow.

    On the issue of why she is seen as a liar, rather than just an amateur idiot, will have to do with her personal life where she lied to get into Europe. She is essentially seen as an opportunist who will say anything for her own benefit, therefore, nothing of what she says can be trusted. Also, taking in to consideration that she was a member of political party which has a strong stance on Immigration, in combination with her personal life,  just adds to the many reasons to dislike her.

    She is an individual who has been through a lot of negativity/pain due to the religion/culture of her birth, her story is extremely important for Muslims and Ex Muslims but I believe she has been more of a negative for ex Muslims due to some of the stances she has taken over the years. It makes it really difficult for ex Muslims to come out of the closet when the dominant ex Muslim voices are Anti Islam/Muslim as it cements the mindset of Muslims that Ex Muslims are traitors and not to be trusted, therefore they should be disowned or worse.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #6 - October 08, 2016, 10:55 PM

    I was surprised someone on this forum called her a liar. What's there to lie about when you're from Somalia and a public murtad? Christopher Hitchens eloquently described her as

    "a refugee from genital mutilation, forced marriage, and civil war... a symbol of the resistance, by many women from the Muslim world, to gender apartheid, "honour" killing, genital mutilation, and other horrors of clerical repression. She has been a very clear and courageous voice against the ongoing attack on our civilisation mounted by exactly the same forces... (via) an extremely arduous journey from something very like chattel slavery to a full mental and intellectual emancipation from theocracy".

    Why would any ex-Muslim dislike her?



    Because apparently she had lied about escaping the civil war (according to an exposé) and she has advocated some terrible things. I do sympathise with the other awful things that have happened to her but that does not mean that she gets a free pass to advocate harm to innocent people. Why is it that her defenders always bring up her past as some kind of smokescreen whenever she is called out?

    Apparently she has cleaned up her act somewhat. I hope that's true.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #7 - October 09, 2016, 02:24 PM

    My goodness gracious.. I don't have time t respond to each and every statement of these two posts  in defense of Ayan Hirsi Ali   but let me keep them in my post  and re-read them.,  OFF COURSE ONE MUST HAVE FREEDOM TO CRITICIZE WHAT SHE WROTE & SAID
    Quote
    Because apparently she had lied about escaping the civil war (according to an exposé) and she has advocated some terrible things. I do sympathise with the other awful things that have happened to her but that does not mean that she gets a free pass to advocate harm to innocent people. Why is it that her defenders always bring up her past as some kind of smokescreen whenever she is called out?

    Apparently she has cleaned up her act somewhat. I hope that's true.

    Ayaan is the Darling of the Right Wing/Neoconservatives and a lot of what she says, especially when she talks about Reformation, is catered for a Right Wing Racist audience who want to be able to talk about negative aspects of Islam in a simplistic manner.

    She is an amateur when it comes to talking about extremism and Muslims, just watch her joint platform with Maajid Nawaz and pay attentions to how both of them categorise Muslims in order to fit their narrative (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV_GMeZ_XmA).

    She uses dehumanising categories like 'Medinan Muslim' and 'Meccan Muslim' to try explain differences between the worlds Muslim populations which is completely out of touch with reality and compared to Maajid's categories, 'Traditional Muslim', 'Islamist Muslim' and 'Jihadist Muslim', it doesn't make sense how anyone can actually take her seriously. BTW, Maajid's categories are deficient as well, especially in his use of the term 'Islamist', but at least he humanises the majority of Traditionalist Muslims unlike Ayaan who gives of a perceptions of Muslims being like mindless drones who are governed by what section of the Quran they read/follow.

    On the issue of why she is seen as a liar, rather than just an amateur idiot, will have to do with her personal life where she lied to get into Europe. She is essentially seen as an opportunist who will say anything for her own benefit, therefore, nothing of what she says can be trusted. Also, taking in to consideration that she was a member of political party which has a strong stance on Immigration, in combination with her personal life,  just adds to the many reasons to dislike her.

    She is an individual who has been through a lot of negativity/pain due to the religion/culture of her birth, her story is extremely important for Muslims and Ex Muslims but I believe she has been more of a negative for ex Muslims due to some of the stances she has taken over the years. It makes it really difficult for ex Muslims to come out of the closet when the dominant ex Muslim voices are Anti Islam/Muslim as it cements the mindset of Muslims that Ex Muslims are traitors and not to be trusted, therefore they should be disowned or worse.




    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #8 - October 09, 2016, 08:09 PM

    ....to advocate harm to innocent people....


    Source?
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #9 - October 09, 2016, 09:03 PM

    It makes it really difficult for ex Muslims to come out of the closet when the dominant ex Muslim voices are Anti Islam/Muslim as it cements the mindset of Muslims that Ex Muslims are traitors and not to be trusted, therefore they should be disowned or worse.


    This is an excellent point. Thanks for bringing it up. Most Ex-Muslims tend to get over the anger once they find ways to either get out of their family's homes (if their family is oppressive), or once they find a way to reconcile with Muslims in their life in one way or another. However, Ayaan and other neo-cons who are former Muslims promote a twisted demagoguery (because they are getting paid to - Ayaan has worked for more than one right-wing think tank, including the Koch Brothers funded AEI), that keeps Ex-Muslims' image as one of people who hold hatred for Muslims and who side with those who want to ban, imprison, bomb, or otherwise harm Muslims.

    Ayaan and other neo-con Ex-Muslims out in public are doing the closeted Ex-Muslims who actually need support the most absolutely no favours.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #10 - October 10, 2016, 03:00 AM

    Interesting, I never intuited murtads would think this. It's assumed Ayan Hirsi's a collective voice of all ex-Muslims of near-martyrdom fame.

    It reminds me of anti-Islam Iranians' opinions of Betty Mahmoody ('author' of Not Without My Daughter). They loathe her and that book, when they themselves escape Iran for the same reason to free themselves of the Rule of the (Islamic) Jurispudent (vilayat e-faqih). Again it's assumed she's a voice of what they escaped, but they see her as a right-wing mouthpiece of an American-Israeli political war on Iran as a whole, which only harms all innocent Iranians without affecting the theocrats in power.

    And there certainly at least the original cover of that book is a lie: Iranians don't wear niqabs
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #11 - October 10, 2016, 12:09 PM

    Well it sounds like ex-muslims need a new hero. 

    The unreligion, only one calorie
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #12 - October 10, 2016, 10:18 PM

    she was never my hero. Maajid Nawaz could be though.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #13 - October 10, 2016, 11:11 PM

    Source?


    She said that Islam needs to be crushed in all forms, including militarily.
    http://reason.com/archives/2007/10/10/the-trouble-is-the-west/singlepage

    Tell me please: how do you crush a religion militarily without advocating violence towards its adherents?
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #14 - October 10, 2016, 11:13 PM

    she was never my hero. Maajid Nawaz could be though.


    Nawaz is OK; sometimes I agree with him and sometimes I disagree. We don't need a hero, because the issue with "heroes" is that people end up taking everything they say at face value. There are a lot of people who could do their bit to contribute to the current situation, with their views being subject to criticism at the same time.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #15 - October 11, 2016, 12:28 AM

    This is an excellent point. Thanks for bringing it up. Most Ex-Muslims tend to get over the anger once they find ways to either get out of their family's homes (if their family is oppressive), or once they find a way to reconcile with Muslims in their life in one way or another. However, Ayaan and other neo-cons who are former Muslims promote a twisted demagoguery (because they are getting paid to - Ayaan has worked for more than one right-wing think tank, including the Koch Brothers funded AEI), that keeps Ex-Muslims' image as one of people who hold hatred for Muslims and who side with those who want to ban, imprison, bomb, or otherwise harm Muslims.

    Ayaan and other neo-con Ex-Muslims out in public are doing the closeted Ex-Muslims who actually need support the most absolutely no favours.


    Hopefully the documentary by Deeyah Khan can help change the public image of Ex Muslims. We definitely need to be humanised/normalised in the public sphere and moved away from the angry/emotional image that Ayaan and Neocons have created.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #16 - October 11, 2016, 08:43 AM

    So, when I call her a liar, it's not based on the right wing liking her--that''s a separate issue altogether. I don't believe we live in a world of angels and demons where some people always lie and some people always tell the truth; we live in a human world where everyone tells the truth sometimes and lies sometimes. "Right wing" doesn't mean "evil", and "left wing" doesn't mean "saint", and vice versa. It's just differences of opinions on policies, I'm sure if you asked most right wing people they'd tell you that they're voting the way they are because they think it's the right thing to do (in America, that's probably because they think Jesus wants them to and in the UK, that's probably because they think it's necessary for national defense, but whatever the reason they think that they're good people for voting the way they do).

    When I call her a liar, it's based on this in-depth report by the Dutch TV show Zembla, which as far as I can tell is from their version of the BBC and is as unbiased as possible.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho3BpnpAagQ
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n6r7H988Tc
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYd4mOwI5w4
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLdpOd9KioM

    It reports that basically none of the claims she makes about her early life are true: she is not from Somalia, although her parents were from there she spent most of her childhood in Kenya, which isn't a country that refugees are accepted from because of its relative stability; she wasn't married off in absentia against her will, she attended her wedding to a Canadian who said it was for citizenship, but that she decided she like the Dutch state's benefits better; she wasn't scared of her family when she landed in the Netherlands, she was still in contact with them and her conversations with them seemed friendly, according to all her acquaintances at the time.

    I'm happy that she is now getting more reasonable in her views about Muslims. That's great. I'm also sure that whatever her childhood was like, she does get death threats now, but that's just what happens to public figures no matter what their stance is on Islam or politics. I'm sure even someone as uncontroversial as Stan Lee has his weirdos who have sent him threatening messages.

    On the plus side, she's an ambitious woman and very good at public speaking. I'm sure she's got plenty of years of public speaking and book tours ahead of her.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #17 - October 12, 2016, 03:26 AM

    I can't view the Youtube clips because I have download limits. But I've read Infidel and the summary you give of the clips doesn't contradict her autobiography:

    - She was born in Somalia but moved to Saudi Arabia (her father was a political dissident), then Ethiopia then Kenya. Kenya has many Somali refugees living there, I've spoken to the firsthand.
    - She didn't want to marry the Somali-Canadian she had been arranged to. She fled from it when she could. She initially considered Germany, but heard Holland was the easiest place to be granted assylum so she applied there.
    - She was in contact with her family in Holland because her family were cajoling and then dragooning her to be with her husband. That family relationship eventually soured when she stubbornly refused.
    - She admitted on TV that she lied to get assylum. Forced marriage wasn't an acceptable reason. But many refugees in Australia who arrive by their own means aren't actually refugees, over 90% according to some.

    To say that "all public figures" are subject to death threats, therefore she or say Salman Rushdie aren't any more special than say Stan Lee, sounds like a Muslim apologist rationalisation to me. The world's international 'neutral' news providers like BCC and CNN are too afraid to even show cartoons causing major international news for fear of themselves being attacked by a righteous mujahid. There's something peculiarly distasteful about Muslim vengeance over all others.

    I'll download the clips from another computer eventually and view them though, as I can't comment specifically on them yet.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #18 - October 12, 2016, 03:38 AM

    I can't view the Youtube clips because I have download limits. But I've read Infidel and the summary you give of the clips doesn't contradict her autobiography:


    The book was originally published in 2006, the same year the documentary came out; did you read the first edition or a subsequent edition? If it was a subsequent edition, she may have updated it to include the facts uncovered in the documentary.


    To say that "all public figures" are subject to death threats, therefore she or say Salman Rushdie aren't any more special than say Stan Lee, sounds like a Muslim apologist rationalisation to me.



    The point of saying that was that I am sure she does get death threats NOW, I'm just not sure if she got them before she became a public figure (and in particular before her Dutch asylum application) like she claims.


    The world's international 'neutral' news providers like BCC and CNN are too afraid to even show cartoons causing major international news for fear of themselves being attacked by a righteous mujahid. There's something peculiarly distasteful about Muslim vengeance over all others.



    Fair point. I am probably just desensitized to it, I usually am surprised by other people having strong reactions to death and death threats. (This has to do mainly with my spending a good 80% of the time since I was 4 years old suicidal.)

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #19 - October 12, 2016, 07:36 AM

    To be honest, a lot of the exposing of Hirsi Ali as a "liar" have to do with over zealous nature of some people who like political smear campaign.

    Just think about all the allegations. Is she the only immigrant doing that? All these convenient wordings to frame Ayaan to discredit her past is simply disingenuous. If right-wings are doing it to BLM/muslims the same allegations would fall flat because of "racism".

    Quote
    It reports that basically none of the claims she makes about her early life are true: she is not from Somalia, although her parents were from there she spent most of her childhood in Kenya,


    As a 3rd generation immigrant myself, some immigrants community still consider themselves as part of their ancestor's heritage and might refuse to assimilate. It's not strange for a Somalian from Kenya to identify more as Somalian and not Kenyan.

    Quote
    which isn't a country that refugees are accepted from because of its relative stability


    This is a totally irrelevant point; if you think of any "stable" 3rd world country that have people who migrate to the west (let's give an example, China) nobody on the left wing would think that it's a bad idea to lie and get in. "Stable" doesn't mean much, there are more economic migrants than there are war refugees. Those economic migrants might lie to get in so they can immigrate faster (or to not get deported). I don't think any left-wing would have any problem with that, after all why ban people from wanting a good life. If you can get paid 5x of your salary back home, why not lie?

    But if it's Ayaan, blow it out of control. She's right-leaning, so smear her to the ground.

    Quote
    she wasn't married off in absentia against her will, she attended her wedding to a Canadian who said it was for citizenship, but that she decided she like the Dutch state's benefits better


    A lot of speculation to make her look extra bad... for doing something many immigrants do. How many "refugees" stopped at first western nation they see? If everybody does that, nobody would even reach UK, Germany, or even Sweden. What's wrong with wanting better benefit? As far as I know, it was the left wing who actually support that rights. So what's wrong if she wants to use it for her benefit?

    Quote
    she wasn't scared of her family when she landed in the Netherlands, she was still in contact with them and her conversations with them seemed friendly, according to all her acquaintances at the time.


    The problem with this is it's her words vs her family. I actually had someone linked to me an article in dutch about her brother backing up Hirsi Ali's story, but I don't want to search for the link now...

    And "keeping in touch with family" is not really a good basis to judge "good relationship" or not. There are many families that hate each other but they still keep in contact... and she might not "hate" everyone in her family. And you might hate your parents, but you still miss your siblings... it's more complicated than that.

    I've seen a lot of reports about Hirsi Ali being a liar, but all of that falls flat like a bad case of journalism/smear campaign.

    If the right wing calls for ban against illegal immigration and demand to deport/revoke citizenship of all immigrants who lied about their name/age/birthplace, accusation of racism would fly everywhere. But this is Hirsi Ali, so she's fair game.

    So Hirsi Ali is a liar not because she lied, but because she's allying herself with right-wing racists. If Hirsi Ali is a liar and deserved to get her Dutch citizenship revoked, many other immigrants are also liars and they all need to be deported. Not just her. But that would be inhuman. Revoking Hirsi Ali's citizenship is not inhuman, though.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #20 - October 12, 2016, 02:26 PM

    I can't view the Youtube clips because I have download limits. But I've read Infidel and the summary you give of the clips doesn't contradict her autobiography:

    - She was born in Somalia but moved to Saudi Arabia (her father was a political dissident), then Ethiopia then Kenya. Kenya has many Somali refugees living there, I've spoken to the firsthand.
    - She didn't want to marry the Somali-Canadian she had been arranged to. She fled from it when she could. She initially considered Germany, but heard Holland was the easiest place to be granted assylum so she applied there.
    - She was in contact with her family in Holland because her family were cajoling and then dragooning her to be with her husband. That family relationship eventually soured when she stubbornly refused.
    - She admitted on TV that she lied to get assylum. Forced marriage wasn't an acceptable reason. But many refugees in Australia who arrive by their own means aren't actually refugees, over 90% according to some.

    To say that "all public figures" are subject to death threats, therefore she or say Salman Rushdie aren't any more special than say Stan Lee, sounds like a Muslim apologist rationalisation to me. The world's international 'neutral' news providers like BCC and CNN are too afraid to even show cartoons causing major international news for fear of themselves being attacked by a righteous mujahid. There's something peculiarly distasteful about Muslim vengeance over all others.

    I'll download the clips from another computer eventually and view them though, as I can't comment specifically on them yet.


    It's highly important that you watch the documentary if you wants to understand why some ex Muslims don't like her and why her lies are so relevant. Throughout the documentary Ayaan is able to respond to the allegations made against her so clearly it isn't some kind of smear campaign against her, but a sober account of the lies she told to get where she is. The documentary actually does humanise her in a way, and some of the lies that she told is given context to make it seem less sinister than it can be perceived.

    It is important to note that she was in the public sphere for many years before she was outed as a liar. Throughout those years, those lies played a pivotal role in her career so cannot be dismissed as 'nobody is perfect, everybody lies' like some people try to do.

    If I was to describe Ayaan's mindset in one word I would use either opportunist/objectivist. The manner in which she has gone about in her career shows that she is only in it for herself, which makes her being with the right wing/Neoconservatives ideal for her, as that is the objectivism philosophy which they follow.

    It is easy to get drawn into a lot of what she says, I actually agree with a many of her positions, but in the context of the real world of progressive reformation her words are meaningless and are not actually helpful for Ex Muslims in changing the environment that they live in.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #21 - October 12, 2016, 03:30 PM

    ............... but in the context of the real world of progressive reformation her words are meaningless and are not actually helpful for Ex Muslims in changing the environment that they live in.........


    Whether her words are important or not and what words of her are important and what are not important  is a different question.,

    So before you say that .,

     1). You should list and give links to her words that are harmful and not important to ex-Muslims

    2). You should also list your points that you think are important for ex-Muslims to air and share with-in Muslim community  such as family get to-gethers,  mosques  , community meetings... etc place in Muslim Nations(>80% Muslim folks live in  a nation)  as well non-Muslim countries such as west  dear SilentMancunian ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #22 - October 12, 2016, 04:16 PM

    It's highly important that you watch the documentary if you wants to understand why some ex Muslims don't like her and why her lies are so relevant. Throughout the documentary Ayaan is able to respond to the allegations made against her so clearly it isn't some kind of smear campaign against her, but a sober account of the lies she told to get where she is. The documentary actually does humanise her in a way, and some of the lies that she told is given context to make it seem less sinister than it can be perceived.

    I've just watched the documentary and it seems pretty fair to me. I spent some time in Nairobi in the mid-80s and Ayaan doesn't come across as so different to people I met there. I wouldn't really condemn someone for lying to get asylum, though in Ayaan's case it does seem a bit hard on her family and ex-husband. My issues are with her political views and opportunism, which I can't see doing any favours to ex-Muslims. The lies are relevant in so far as they put her political trajectory into context. I've never paid much attention to her before so I don't think I'm coming to this with many pre-conceptions.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #23 - October 13, 2016, 12:34 AM

    My issues are with her political views and opportunism, which I can't see doing any favours to ex-Muslims. The lies are relevant in so far as they put her political trajectory into context. I've never paid much attention to her before so I don't think I'm coming to this with many pre-conceptions.


    Yes. Same here. I have major disagreements in her own choices after she already got asylum. I know people get desperate for asylum so I'm not faulting her for that, although I do think someone lying to get asylum harms those asylum seekers who are genuinely telling the truth.

    But my issue with her is how she has worked for far right thinktanks, and peddles far right politics including things like shitting on #BlackLivesMatter, endorsing David Cameron and Stephen Harper, and in general spreading hatred of Muslims. Ex-Muslims have to struggle harder to be seen as individuals because of people like Ayaan who are in the public sphere making a career out of demeaning and demonizing Muslims. Ex-Muslims already face so much stigma and people like Ayaan (and some others I can think of) due to their own actions of aligning with anti Muslim bigots & spreading anti Muslim and racist tropes, only help stoke the fears and hatred of the people who are stigmatizing Ex-Muslims in general.

    I still say that Ex-Muslims should not be judged by the few bad people in the public eye who happen to also be former Muslims, but with the vast majority of Ex-Muslims being closeted, the public gets to see a lot of sell outs and anti Muslim Ex-Muslims, instead of all the people who are just trying to carve out their own paths and even reconcile with Muslims in their lives while trying to affect change in Muslim communities.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #24 - October 13, 2016, 12:44 AM

    Just to add, I was a big fan of Ayaan before I learned about all these other things. Her earlier books were very moving to me and I met her at a signing once and I really like her demeanor and way of speaking. I do think she makes a lot of good points and I don't think she's all bad. I just wish she was more sensitive to how her actions are perceived. It seems to me that more and more as she's made a name for herself, she's succumbed to being inside a bubble where she only engages with and panders to conservative, anti immigrant rhetoric. And it's a damn shame, frankly.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #25 - October 13, 2016, 06:56 AM

    My issues are with her political views and opportunism, which I can't see doing any favours to ex-Muslims. The lies are relevant in so far as they put her political trajectory into context.


    Agree with this.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #26 - October 13, 2016, 05:27 PM

    Whether her words are important or not and what words of her are important and what are not important  is a different question.,

    So before you say that .,

     1). You should list and give links to her words that are harmful and not important to ex-Muslims

    2). You should also list your points that you think are important for ex-Muslims to air and share with-in Muslim community  such as family get to-gethers,  mosques  , community meetings... etc place in Muslim Nations(>80% Muslim folks live in  a nation)  as well non-Muslim countries such as west  dear SilentMancunian ..


    To be honest I can't be bothered trawling through her videos and statements to give you a list, but surely the example I gave in my first post in the thread about how she categorises Muslims into 'Medinan Muslims' and 'Meccan Muslims' is enough to know what she is really about. She is there to appease a western audience who have no understanding of Muslims and to give them the tools to hate only a part of the Muslim community rather than the whole so that they can say 'I don't hate all Muslims, just the 'Medinan Muslims' who are bad' despite the fact there is no such thing. The terms she uses only degrades Muslims and makes them seem like mindless drones devoid of critical thought, who only act according to what part of the Quran they read, rather than complex human beings who are also affected by other things like culture, tradition and politics. This would be trivial if it wasn't for the fact other ex Muslims are influenced by her work and have used it in the public debates.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlCazztehbI

    Amal is a clear example of what not to do in the public sphere. First, don't act like you are superior to someone else by saying 'I got educated' as so do Muslims and they end up still believing. Second, don't use terms to categorise Muslims which have no place in traditional Islam as it shows that you get you source of information from non-Muslim/anti-Muslim websites/book rather than through engaging with the teachings and actually disagreeing with them. Thirdly, don't ever use Taqiyya, or try to imply it,  to claim your opposition is being dishonest, instead, prove that they are being dishonest. The most important thing though, is to give clear and concise answers on where your disbelief originates from and not a whole list of what is wrong with Islam. By trying to claim the religion is false, you are only going to paint yourself as a someone who is Anti-Muslim/Anti-Islam.

    The aim should be to humanise/normalise apostates in Islam instead of conforming to a caricature of someone who has left the religion and now has a vendetta against it.

    If you haven't already, check out Faith to Faithless. I met Imtiaz Shams yesterday in Manchester, and from the looks of it, he seems to understand that you need to come across as someone who is relatable when you are explaining your lack of belief, especially when talking to Muslims. Don't forget, a lot of us on here have never met a Ex-Muslim (or even seen one) before we accepted our lack of belief, so you should accept that it also applies to many Muslims, and to come across as someone who is hostile towards Muslims is only going to make them see you in a negative light, and by extension all ex-Muslims they come across.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #27 - October 14, 2016, 08:13 AM

    To be honest, a lot of the exposing of Hirsi Ali as a "liar" have to do with over zealous nature of some people who like political smear campaign.

    Just think about all the allegations. Is she the only immigrant doing that? All these convenient wordings to frame Ayaan to discredit her past is simply disingenuous. If right-wings are doing it to BLM/muslims the same allegations would fall flat because of "racism".

    This is a totally irrelevant point; if you think of any "stable" 3rd world country that have people who migrate to the west (let's give an example, China) nobody on the left wing would think that it's a bad idea to lie and get in. "Stable" doesn't mean much, there are more economic migrants than there are war refugees. Those economic migrants might lie to get in so they can immigrate faster (or to not get deported). I don't think any left-wing would have any problem with that, after all why ban people from wanting a good life. If you can get paid 5x of your salary back home, why not lie?

    But if it's Ayaan, blow it out of control. She's right-leaning, so smear her to the ground.

    A lot of speculation to make her look extra bad... for doing something many immigrants do. How many "refugees" stopped at first western nation they see? If everybody does that, nobody would even reach UK, Germany, or even Sweden. What's wrong with wanting better benefit? As far as I know, it was the left wing who actually support that rights. So what's wrong if she wants to use it for her benefit?

    I've seen a lot of reports about Hirsi Ali being a liar, but all of that falls flat like a bad case of journalism/smear campaign.

    If the right wing calls for ban against illegal immigration and demand to deport/revoke citizenship of all immigrants who lied about their name/age/birthplace, accusation of racism would fly everywhere. But this is Hirsi Ali, so she's fair game.

    So Hirsi Ali is a liar not because she lied, but because she's allying herself with right-wing racists. If Hirsi Ali is a liar and deserved to get her Dutch citizenship revoked, many other immigrants are also liars and they all need to be deported. Not just her. But that would be inhuman. Revoking Hirsi Ali's citizenship is not inhuman, though.


    HA, HA, so truth. The hypocrisy of many from the left has no limits really. Hirsi Ali's fault is that she is a neocon (more likely branded as one), no more no less. Of course, this attitude is not common only to the left, right wingers does the same with so many leftists.

    I love Hirsi Ali, I love Maryam Namzie, I love Irshad Manji and all the women who have came out publically against this fascist ideology, no matter what they are, communists, liberals, neocons. I love their courage(which I don't think I would have), they are an inspiration for so many people.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #28 - October 14, 2016, 08:23 AM

    The terms she uses only degrades Muslims and makes them seem like mindless drones devoid of critical thought, who only act according to what part of the Quran they read, rather than complex human beings who are also affected by other things like culture, tradition and politics.


    It is Islam who does this and Sunni Islam in particular. It is Muslims actions in the name of Islam who degrade them. If you think that without the likes of Hirsi Ali would be anything different, you are just deluding yourself.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #29 - October 14, 2016, 08:33 AM

    nbhb - have you watched the videos gal posted up?
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