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 Topic: Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?

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  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #60 - October 17, 2016, 05:52 PM

    Yeez, you responded to the wrong post, look carefully and you will see that you was meant to reply to a post later on in the thread (reply#26). ). If you get a chance, have a read through it, since I responded to both parts of your post.

    helloo  SilentMancunian.,

    Hmm  that is a different  video   from the one you suggested to me to watch,,,,  and I fully agree with you that she is a Darling of the Right Wing/Neoconservatives .  And   and it is a fact that any one who criticizes Islam will automatically become  Darling of the Right Wing/Neoconservatives  when they interact with right wing characters.,   There is a   little doubt on that

    But   but could you add bit more details of your thoughts of a question    I read that twice from you in different posts

    I mean she is taking some sort of historical  fact/Assumption. "That   this so called political Islam that uses violence for politics  has the origin  from Islamic narratives that come from after alleged Prophet of Islam Moved to Madina" .. in other words she simply saying Violence  in Islam starts from that Prophet's  Nakhla expedition  in the year 623..

    what is wrong with that??   In fact at this time and age.,  I will go further and say   "We not only have Meccan Muslims and Madinan Muslims   but we have  Variety of Muslims from Variety of cultures   London Muslims..  Lahore Muslims ..Latakia  Muslims.,     Karachi Muslims ..Kirkuk Muslims ..Kassala  Muslims   etc..etc..etc..

    I say one way or other way the Muslim folks born/brought up  in  those different cities/towns  are all different and have different problems and follow different amount of literal Islam

    Is it wrong to say that??


    To add context, to what Ayaan categories mean, have a read through this (or the full article).

    Quote
    The first group is the most problematic. These are the fundamentalists who, when they say the Shahada, mean: “We must live by the strict letter of our creed.” They envision a regime based on Shariah, Islamic religious law. They argue for an Islam largely or completely unchanged from its original seventh-century version. What is more, they take it as a requirement of their faith that they impose it on everyone else.
    I shall call them Medina Muslims, in that they see the forcible imposition of Shariah as their religious duty. They aim not just to obey Muhammad’s teaching but also to emulate his warlike conduct after his move to Medina. Even if they do not themselves engage in violence, they do not hesitate to condone it.
    It is Medina Muslims who call Jews and Christians “pigs and monkeys.” It is Medina Muslims who prescribe death for the crime of apostasy, death by stoning for adultery and hanging for homosexuality. It is Medina Muslims who put women in burqas and beat them if they leave their homes alone or if they are improperly veiled.
    The second group—and the clear majority throughout the Muslim world—consists of Muslims who are loyal to the core creed and worship devoutly but are not inclined to practice violence. I call them Mecca Muslims. Like devout Christians or Jews who attend religious services every day and abide by religious rules in what they eat and wear, Mecca Muslims focus on religious observance. I was born in Somalia and raised as a Mecca Muslim. So were the majority of Muslims from Casablanca to Jakarta.
    Yet the Mecca Muslims have a problem: Their religious beliefs exist in an uneasy tension with modernity—the complex of economic, cultural and political innovations that not only reshaped the Western world but also dramatically transformed the developing world as the West exported it. The rational, secular and individualistic values of modernity are fundamentally corrosive of traditional societies, especially hierarchies based on gender, age and inherited status.
    Trapped between two worlds of belief and experience, these Muslims are engaged in a daily struggle to adhere to Islam in the context of a society that challenges their values and beliefs at every turn. Many are able to resolve this tension only by withdrawing into self-enclosed (and increasingly self-governing) enclaves. This is called cocooning, a practice whereby Muslim immigrants attempt to wall off outside influences, permitting only an Islamic education for their children and disengaging from the wider non-Muslim community.
    It is my hope to engage this second group of Muslims—those closer to Mecca than to Medina—in a dialogue about the meaning and practice of their faith. I recognize that these Muslims are not likely to heed a call for doctrinal reformation from someone they regard as an apostate and infidel. But they may reconsider if I can persuade them to think of me not as an apostate but as a heretic: one of a growing number of people born into Islam who have sought to think critically about the faith we were raised in. It is with this third group—only a few of whom have left Islam altogether—that I would now identify myself.
    These are the Muslim dissidents. A few of us have been forced by experience to conclude that we could not continue to be believers; yet we remain deeply engaged in the debate about Islam’s future. The majority of dissidents are reforming believers—among them clerics who have come to realize that their religion must change if its followers are not to be condemned to an interminable cycle of political violence.
    How many Muslims belong to each group? Ed Husain of the Council on Foreign Relations estimates that only 3% of the world’s Muslims understand Islam in the militant terms I associate with Muhammad’s time in Medina. But out of well over 1.6 billion believers, or 23% of the globe’s population, that 48 million seems to be more than enough. (I would put the number significantly higher, based on survey data on attitudes toward Shariah in Muslim countries.)
    In any case, regardless of the numbers, it is the Medina Muslims who have captured the world’s attention on the airwaves, over social media, in far too many mosques and, of course, on the battlefield.
    The Medina Muslims pose a threat not just to non-Muslims. They also undermine the position of those Mecca Muslims attempting to lead a quiet life in their cultural cocoons throughout the Western world. But those under the greatest threat are the dissidents and reformers within Islam, who face ostracism and rejection, who must brave all manner of insults, who must deal with the death threats—or face death itself.


    http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-reformation-for-islam-1426859626#livefyre-comment

    Quote
    "why is it dehumanizing Muslims if some one categories Muslim folks says 'Medinan Muslim' and 'Meccan Muslim' ??


    It is dehumanising because Muslims do not determine how they live depending on whether they recite 'Medinan Verses' or 'Meccan Verses'. When it comes to understanding there religion, most Muslims are dependent on a scholar/Imam to interpret the beliefs of their religion. Also, the Imams do not determine what the spirit/morals of the religion is going to be depending on whether they are 'Meccan Muslim' or 'Medinan Muslims', it is based on years of scholarship in understanding the context of the whole Quran with the assistance of other historical records ie. Hadiths (which are understood through whichever Madhab they conform to).

    It should also be noted that the manner in which Muslims live is not solely determined by Islam, but by the environment/society in which they are brought up in. Muslims are just as complex as other human beings, they are not solely influenced by their religion, some don't even take their religious beliefs seriously let alone have an understanding of them.

    The significance of the verses of the Quran, in the role of Muslim lives, is also exaggerated by her categories, as it implies that Muslims have an understanding of their religion through the reading of the Quran in their native tongue. Considering that the majority of Muslims who recite the Quran are not Arabic speakers (and the lack of historical context and chronological order in the Quran), it is more likely that Muslims have an understanding of their religious beliefs through the reading of Islamic books deemed fit by their parents or Islamic teachers.

    The idea that Muslims use the Quran to determine their own faith/beliefs allows anyone to quote the Quran in whatever manner they want and say that they have an understanding of what Muslim believe, without actually trying to understand the complexity of Muslims and there lives. The whole purpose of her categories is to empower lazy shits and bigots who want a simplistic understanding on how Muslims differ, not an actually reflection on the varieties of beliefs in the Muslim world.

    To actually engage in reformation, you need to understand the mechanisms of the institutions that you want to reform, not treat the institutions as part of a big homogenised group and saying 'these are the bad/good people and this is how I want you to change. By grouping the majority of Muslims into two umbrella terms and including a third category that she is apart of, 'Muslim dissidents', she makes reform seem like something that occurs from people on the outside (either through pressure, force or enlightenment) rather than reform coming from people within the institutions who have developed a different understanding within the frameworks of the beliefs (and by being inspired by outside world). There is no doubt people from the outside can influence reformation process, but you got to be able to engage/relate with people in the institutions and not demonise them by simplifying and belittling their beliefs. She certainly isn't a reformer, she is just a charlatan pandering to a naïve audience who will believe any bullshit which suits there feeble minds.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #61 - October 17, 2016, 06:29 PM

    I've watched the documentary again and to be honest I couldn't really say who's lying and who's telling the truth.


    I am sure her brother was sincere about putting his family in the best possible light. 

    His statement that his mother was NOT for the marriage as Aayan had no university education is NOT believable to me.  By all accounts the mother was quite conservative.  a Google of Somali Marriage says that arranged and even forced marriages are common and the earlier the better.   Aayan was 22, by Somali standards she was 'over the hill'.    The family probably thought they were doing what was best for her.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #62 - October 17, 2016, 06:34 PM

    @puzzlelover Thanks for adding context to the background of the documentary.

    When I watched it, I wasn't fully aware of what information had already been in the public domain. In terms of it being biased or an attack on VVD, I kind of sussed that out when watching the documentary. However, I will still stand by saying it was fair on Ayaan, as it allowed her space to respond to all allegations, which is usually not the case in most documentaries about specific people.

    It terms of her lying about her marriage, the problem wasn't just about whether it was forced or not, it was a problem due to the extreme nature of the story/lie she told about her husband/family and the threat on her life (which was non-existent) due to the 'honour culture in Somalia'.

    To be honest, my biggest issue with her is not that she lied about her past, or that she made a name of herself from it, but that she uses her Ex Muslim label to claim to be something she is not (a reformist) and make it seems like she has an understanding of Islam (and how to change it) when she has barely touched the surface. Anyone with two brain cells can come up with a narrative about Islam/Muslims, but whether it is consistent with reality is another issue.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #63 - October 17, 2016, 07:04 PM

    Here's a recent interview where she goes over her story and talks about her current ideas. It was recorded in Denmark and there's some Danish at the start but the interview is in English. This just came up for me at random on youtube but I thought it was interesting.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ntA9xZClEK4&ebc=ANyPxKqISCO1oNvr3HL22OldewVFoRRcPn3PKBxCZaJhX3SLTckJN9Ssahn057lYfbheluWLyiC1uJa3n8sygvT8Vd74vgn_xg
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #64 - October 17, 2016, 09:00 PM

    Here's a recent interview where she goes over her story and talks about her current ideas. It was recorded in Denmark and there's some Danish at the start but the interview is in English. This just came up for me at random on youtube but I thought it was interesting.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ntA9xZClEK4&ebc=ANyPxKqISCO1oNvr3HL22OldewVFoRRcPn3PKBxCZaJhX3SLTckJN9Ssahn057lYfbheluWLyiC1uJa3n8sygvT8Vd74vgn_xg


    Thanks for sharing, Zeca.

    That was an interesting interview. However, her characterisation of the problems in the 'Muslim world', Islam being the issue, is a still quite simplistic and doesn't take into consideration how other aspects of life, including economic interest, has had an effect.

    One of the things that I find to be flawed is her portrayal of Muhammad as 'Jekyll and Hyde' when he went from Mecca to Medina. To me he didn't change one bit, he just adapted to circumstance. Political Islam is seen as the Medinan Period, but wasn't Muhammad politically radical when he was in Mecca? Isn't claiming to be a prophet a political act? Isn't preaching against the Quraish and not stopping when they asked Abu Talib to silence him a radical move? To me, everything about Muhammad paints him as a political activist/reformist. By saying, only the Medinan Period is Political Islam, give credence to the idea that Right wing Islamist are the true form of Islam. All religions are meant to be political. By just establishing a mosque (or culturally reforming one) can be seen as a political act.

    Most of the reformation I have seen in the area that I'm from have been from people she would classify as 'Meccan Muslims', they don't seem to need 'Muslim dissidents' to tell them they need to change, they have changed because people in the area saw that they needed a stronger community presence. They were following the example of Muhammad in Mecca and Medina when they made the changes, The inspiration they got from Muhammad in Mecca was the story of Umar and how a hot headed individual became a prominent member of the community. By re-introducing the religion in a manner which they can relate to, many of the angry/hostile young men (bullies and drug dealers) have changed there ways and a lot of them are really into charity work. The inspiration they got from Medina is the adopting of Jewish traditions by Muhammad, like Yom Kippur (Ramadhan/fasting). In my area they have gotten close to the Christian communities and started their own Muslim Scouts.

    These changes might be small/trivial but these are the things which change people attitudes without having to redefine the whole religion.

    Ayaan does mention that reformation has been going on for decades, but what she doesn't understand is that reformation is a central part of religion and therefore nothing new. The current problems in the 'Muslim World' has a lot to do with Saudi Arabia and its proselytizating mission to spread its form of Islam. Although she does mention Saudi/Salafism/Wahabbism she doesn't point out that it is Western nations (US/UK especially) and corporate interest which has given Saudi their platform to promote their narrative (wrapped in money) all of the world (many of the areas receiving the money/resources are deprived and in need of support due to neglect from the authorities).
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #65 - October 17, 2016, 10:02 PM

    @puzzlelover Thanks for adding context to the background of the documentary.

    When I watched it, I wasn't fully aware of what information had already been in the public domain. In terms of it being biased or an attack on VVD, I kind of sussed that out when watching the documentary. However, I will still stand by saying it was fair on Ayaan, as it allowed her space to respond to all allegations, which is usually not the case in most documentaries about specific people.

    It terms of her lying about her marriage, the problem wasn't just about whether it was forced or not, it was a problem due to the extreme nature of the story/lie she told about her husband/family and the threat on her life (which was non-existent) due to the 'honour culture in Somalia'.

    To be honest, my biggest issue with her is not that she lied about her past, or that she made a name of herself from it, but that she uses her Ex Muslim label to claim to be something she is not (a reformist) and make it seems like she has an understanding of Islam (and how to change it) when she has barely touched the surface. Anyone with two brain cells can come up with a narrative about Islam/Muslims, but whether it is consistent with reality is another issue.


    It's all good SilentM.   I was only giving my thoughts about the topic of this thread, why she was called a liar.  I don't agree with a lot of what she advocates.  In 2015 she asked Canadians to vote Harper.  Not sure why she thought it would  go down well  here Roll Eyes 

    btw can you, if possible,tell me exactly where she said this
    Quote
    it was a problem due to the extreme nature of the story/lie she told about her husband/family and the threat on her life

    I didn't see anything like that in my recent research.  Wiki says something like that, but I would prefer a quote from her books or an interview ?  I mean I don't automatically get honour killing from honour culture.  There are effective, but less violent forms of coercion than life threats I feel.  tks.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #66 - October 17, 2016, 10:19 PM

    btw can you, if possible,tell me exactly where she said this I didn't see anything like that in my recent research.  Wiki says something like that, but I would prefer a quote from her books or an interview ?  I mean I don't automatically get honour killing from honour culture.  There are effective, but less violent forms of coercion than life threats I feel.  tks.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbxP8Uys8kc&app=desktop

    Watch it from 22-26 mins.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #67 - October 17, 2016, 11:19 PM

    SilentM, I can't believe you think everything in that doc is gospel (or should it be Quranic) truth Huh?

    Really?  Somalis are practically Jains, that nonviolent  Roll Eyes
    Quote
    OECD DEV CENTRE, SOCIAL INSTITUTIONS AND GENDER INDEX
    Somalia has laws prohibiting rape; however they are very rarely enforced.[13]There are no laws prohibiting domestic violence, spousal rape or sexual harassment.[14]

    Whilst most incidents of violence against women go unreported, there is a culture of impunity surrounding sexual and domestic violence in Somalia. Customary approaches to dealing with violence against women typically involve making “arrangements” between the clans of the victim and the rapist. According to the United Nations Human Rights Council, rape or domestic violence is treated as civil dispute, often resolved through either the payment of money or a forced marriage between the victim and the perpetrator.[15]
    Although there is a lack of prevalence data, sexual and domestic violence is reported to be a serious problem in Somalia and recent reports suggest that it is increasing.[16]

    Anecdotal reports from field workers suggest that although there has been a general increase in awareness about rape and sexual violence, there remains a reluctance to talk about gender-based violence. For instance, UNICEF reported that 76% of women 15–49 years old consider a husband to be justified in hitting or beating his wife, if his wife burns the food, argues with him, goes out without telling him or neglects the children or refuses sexual relations.[17]

    http://www.genderindex.org/country/somalia

    I found this just randomly. If there is absolutely physical force being used, how are these 'forced' marriages happening ? 

    Also, I notice the interviewer is  the one talking about honour killings, not Ayan.   

    Ali had every right to be afraid. As it turned out, he let her go easily, but at the time she married him and run away, she had no way of knowing how he would react.   By the time she landed in the Netherlands, she quickly learned her rights and was unafraid to face him when he came, which I think  wasn't too long after she claimed asylum.    I saw a clip of her saying as much but cannot lay my hands on it atm.

    That image from the youtube, that asks why she was on camera if she was hiding, is dated Nov 1993,  a full year after she arrived in Holland.  It could have been made after he had visited and left, or as she had gotten her asylum granted so quickly, her confidence grew.

    You also have to remember that there must be stuff that didn't make it into the doc favouring Ali, as that wouldn't suit ZEMBLA's agenda.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #68 - October 18, 2016, 12:12 AM

    SilentM, I can't believe you think everything in that doc is gospel (or should it be Quranic) truth Huh?

    Really?  Somalis are practically Jains, that nonviolent  Roll Eyeshttp://www.genderindex.org/country/somalia

    I found this just randomly. If there is absolutely physical force being used, how are these 'forced' marriages happening ? 

    Also, I notice the interviewer is  the one talking about honour killings, not Ayan.   

    Ali had every right to be afraid. As it turned out, he let her go easily, but at the time she married him and run away, she had no way of knowing how he would react.   By the time she landed in the Netherlands, she quickly learned her rights and was unafraid to face him when he came, which I think  wasn't too long after she claimed asylum.    I saw a clip of her saying as much but cannot lay my hands on it atm.

    That image from the youtube, that asks why she was on camera if she was hiding, is dated Nov 1993,  a full year after she arrived in Holland.  It could have been made after he had visited and left, or as she had gotten her asylum granted so quickly, her confidence grew.

    You also have to remember that there must be stuff that didn't make it into the doc favouring Ali, as that wouldn't suit ZEMBLA's agenda.


    Tbh, I remembered her mentioning something about cousins might kill her in her fathers name when she was questioned, that's why I posted that. When I re-watched it does seem that her answers are brought on by the interviewer.

    A lot of the stuff I know about her I learnt years ago so my memory on her past life isn't clear. But, like I said before I don't really care too much about her lies, I'm more concerned about what she says when she talks on the issue of Islam/Islamic Reformation. I'm pretty sure she does a lot more good than harm in her activism work, especially for women's rights, it is just the rhetoric/narrative she uses that bothers me.

    To be honest, I feel the same about people like Maryam Namazie, who does a lot of good work for ex Muslims behind the scene for ex Muslims but has a controversial public image due to generalisations that she makes.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #69 - October 18, 2016, 12:35 AM

    Yeez, you responded to the wrong post, look carefully and you will see that you was meant to reply to a post later on in the thread (reply#26). ). If you get a chance, have a read through it, since I responded to both parts of your post.

     oops really.,  all right now I will read all posts of yours............ ALL 73 POSTS ..... dear  SilentMancunian

    I guess you have two part  response in your post., let us separate these two issues

    1)  Mrs Ali's  Wall street Journal Article .,

    2)  response to my question  which actually deals with early Islamic history that is filled with cockibull stories..

    Quote
    To add context, to what Ayaan categories mean, have a read through this (or the full article).

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-reformation-for-islam-1426859626#livefyre-comment

    The first group is the most problematic. These are the fundamentalists who, when they say the Shahada, mean: “We must live by the strict letter of our creed.” They envision a regime based on Shariah, Islamic religious law. They argue for an Islam largely or completely unchanged from its original seventh-century version. What is more, they take it as a requirement of their faith that they impose it on everyone else.

    I shall call them Medina Muslims, in that they see the forcible imposition of Shariah as their religious duty. They aim not just to obey Muhammad’s teaching but also to emulate his warlike conduct after his move to Medina. Even if they do not themselves engage in violence, they do not hesitate to condone it.
    It is Medina Muslims who call Jews and Christians “pigs and monkeys.” It is Medina Muslims who prescribe death for the crime of apostasy, death by stoning for adultery and hanging for homosexuality. It is Medina Muslims who put women in burqas and beat them if they leave their homes alone or if they are improperly veiled.

    The second group—and the clear majority throughout the Muslim world—consists of Muslims who are loyal to the core creed and worship devoutly but are not inclined to practice violence. I call them Mecca Muslims. Like devout Christians or Jews who attend religious services every day and abide by religious rules in what they eat and wear, Mecca Muslims focus on religious observance. I was born in Somalia and raised as a Mecca Muslim. So were the majority of Muslims from Casablanca to Jakarta.

    Yet the Mecca Muslims have a problem: Their religious beliefs exist in an uneasy tension with modernity—the complex of economic, cultural and political innovations that not only reshaped the Western world but also dramatically transformed the developing world as the West exported it. The rational, secular and individualistic values of modernity are fundamentally corrosive of traditional societies, especially hierarchies based on gender, age and inherited status.
    Trapped between two worlds of belief and experience, these Muslims are engaged in a daily struggle to adhere to Islam in the context of a society that challenges their values and beliefs at every turn. Many are able to resolve this tension only by withdrawing into self-enclosed (and increasingly self-governing) enclaves. This is called cocooning, a practice whereby Muslim immigrants attempt to wall off outside influences, permitting only an Islamic education for their children and disengaging from the wider non-Muslim community.

    It is my hope to engage this second group of Muslims—those closer to Mecca than to Medina—in a dialogue about the meaning and practice of their faith. I recognize that these Muslims are not likely to heed a call for doctrinal reformation from someone they regard as an apostate and infidel. But they may reconsider if I can persuade them to think of me not as an apostate but as a heretic: one of a growing number of people born into Islam who have sought to think critically about the faith we were raised in. It is with this third group—only a few of whom have left Islam altogether—that I would now identify myself.

    These are the Muslim dissidents. A few of us have been forced by experience to conclude that we could not continue to be believers; yet we remain deeply engaged in the debate about Islam’s future. The majority of dissidents are reforming believers—among them clerics who have come to realize that their religion must change if its followers are not to be condemned to an interminable cycle of political violence.

    How many Muslims belong to each group? Ed Husain of the Council on Foreign Relations estimates that only 3% of the world’s Muslims understand Islam in the militant terms I associate with Muhammad’s time in Medina. But out of well over 1.6 billion believers, or 23% of the globe’s population, that 48 million seems to be more than enough. (I would put the number significantly higher, based on survey data on attitudes toward Shariah in Muslim countries.)

    In any case, regardless of the numbers, it is the Medina Muslims who have captured the world’s attention on the airwaves, over social media, in far too many mosques and, of course, on the battlefield.

    The Medina Muslims pose a threat not just to non-Muslims. They also undermine the position of those Mecca Muslims attempting to lead a quiet life in their cultural cocoons throughout the Western world. But those under the greatest threat are the dissidents and reformers within Islam, who face ostracism and rejection, who must brave all manner of insults, who must deal with the death threats—or face death itself.

    So SIlent _M.,   Is that a complete article?   well that WSJ link   says
    Quote
    To Read the Full Story, Subscribe or Sign In

     The 2nd part  of yours .,the response to my question .. we will discuss at a later times,,  But let me add this .here ., Some time back "The Friday Times Published this article  by Natasha Shahid .. I am getting this from one of my hard disks

    Quote
    Ayaan Hirsi Ali and her Heretic are murdering the cause of seculars,  

    Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a well-known critic of Islam and ex-Muslim, recently released a book which she chose to title “Heretic” – a word that she must be all too familiar with, by now. The book proposes a reformation in Islam akin to the reformation that Christianity went through in the 16th century. But how similar are these two reformations?

    The Protestant Reformation

    Although it had many movements entailing it, the emergence of Martin Luther’s The Ninety-Five Theses was unarguably what started the Protestant Reformation as we know it. The Ninety-Five Theses, written in 1517, targeted the practices of the Catholic Church, especially its sale of indulgences. Before the Reformation, sinners could conveniently knock the Church’s door, pay a certain amount of money, and be absolved of their sins. Luther further raised objections over the corrupt practices being conducted within the Church, the nepotism and simony, etc. Protestantism further expanded its concerns to the reverence received by saints in the Church, objecting that this reverence had nothing to do with Christianity as the scripture taught it.

    So, in essence, Protestantism was a movement to purify Christianity, primarily of the malpractices that had taken root in the Church, and secondly, of the innovations that the Church and its followers had introduced to the faith.

    Hirsi Ali’s Islamic Reformation

    “To defeat the extremists for good, Muslims must reject those aspects of their tradition that prompt some believers to resort to oppression and holy war” says the blurb at the top of Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s article on the website of the Wall Street Journal. Sounds reasonable, until her entire argument begins to unfold.

    Hirsi Ali’s argument is summarized in five points that represent all the elements in Islam that she believes Muslims should abandon, which I will now quote from her own article:

    “The imperative to wage jihad, or holy war.”

    The message of this is fairly simple: Hirsi Ali suggests that Muslims should disown the parts of the scripture that demand them to wage holy war.

    “The right of individual Muslims to enforce Islamic law.”

    That Muslims should not go around forcing people to follow Islamic law or practices.

    “Shariah, the vast body of religious legislation.”

    She further asks Muslims to reject the Shariah and accept manmade laws as above those that Muslims believe were created by God.

    “The supremacy of life after death.”

    That life on the Earth is dearer than the life Hereafter.

    “Muhammad’s semi-divine status, along with the literalist reading of the Quran.”

    Last, and most bafflingly, Muslims should cease to regard Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) as “infallible”. It doesn’t end there: Hirsi Ali further argues that Muslims should stop taking him as “a source of divine writ”.

    Similarity in the two Reformations?

    It is fairly evident from the above-given descriptions of the two reformations that the two are not similar at all. The Protestant Reformation, as stated above, focused more on gleaning Christianity of innovations and malpractices; of achieving a purer form of it that was closer to what the scripture originally taught. Hirsi Ali’s proposed reformation of Islam, on the other hand, is completely the opposite: it demands a gleaning of the Islamic scripture, itself. Not only that, it asks Muslims to abandon the very core of their faith: the prophethood of Muhammad (PBUH) and the divinity of the Quran. That is like asking Christians to denounce their claim that Jesus Christ was the son of God, and asking Atheists to stop believing that God does not exist. Furthermore, demanding Muslims to reject the Shariah and the importance of the Hereafter, altogether, is also akin to asking them to reject their faith completely. Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s “reformation” of Islam is not a reformation at all – it is a new faith altogether.

    How Ayaan Hirsi Ali is ruining her own cause

    In a recent interview, Hirsi Ali stated that all Muslims are “rotten apples”. “The assumption is that, in Islam, there are a few rotten apples, not the entire basket. I’m saying it’s the entire basket,” she told the New York Post. She further elaborates her point by saying that the notion that Islam is being defamed by a “few bad apples” is false – the blame for the religion’s defamation lies on the shoulder of all the 2 billion Muslims in the world, simply because they follow their religion. Therefore to Hirsi Ali, a Muslim who has never so much as broken a law, is more of a global threat than, say, an Anders Behring Breivik, the Norwegian mass murderer and terrorist.

    I fail to understand how Ayaan Hirsi Ali plans to appeal to Muslims around the globe with statements like these that ooze bigotry.  Because, surely, someone who is calling out to a certain group to reform themselves ought to have some kind of appeal to that particular group – why else would they listen to them?

    Why would a Muslim listen to religious advice coming from an ex-Muslim atheist who, after maligning their religion, is calling them a “rotten apple”?

    Why would Islamists, who already believe Hirsi Ali a “heretic”, lend an ear to the fairly ridiculous ideas of reformation presented by her, especially if she is also bent upon generalizing the entire Muslim community as a threat to humanity?

    And if her proposition is not meant to appeal to Muslims, then whom exactly is she attempting to inspire into conducting an Islamic reformation?

     Is she calling out to an external force to crack down on the religion and reform it forcefully?

    If that is the case, then there isn’t much of a difference between her and the Islamic State – they both believe in terrorizing those who don’t agree with their point-of-view.

    Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s hate speech – and that is what it is because it lacks constructiveness – is only going to make Muslims deafer to constructive criticism – which is exactly what seculars do not want. Which is exactly what Martin Luther did not do.

      I will read your posts  but mean while please read that Firday Times article..

    with best regards
    yeezevee


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #70 - October 18, 2016, 12:40 AM

    SilentM said
    Quote
    ...  I'm more concerned about what she says when she talks on the issue of Islam/Islamic Reformation. I'm pretty sure she does a lot more good than harm in her activism work, especially for women's rights, it is just the rhetoric/narrative she uses that bothers me.

    To be honest, I feel the same about people like Maryam Namazie, who does a lot of good work for ex Muslims behind the scene for ex Muslims but has a controversial public image due to generalisations that she makes.


    You have to admit that right or wrong, it is difficult to be considered noncontroversial when anybody talks openly about Islam.  There will always some who will strongly disagree.  As long as it is with ideas and nonviolence, no harm done.

  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #71 - October 18, 2016, 12:49 AM

    Sorry about that Yeez, the link doesn't work properly so just search 'Ayaan Hirsi Ali Why Islam Needs a Reformation' if you want to read the full thing.

    The article you posted was interesting and makes some valid points.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #72 - October 18, 2016, 01:09 AM

    You have to admit that right or wrong, it is difficult to be considered noncontroversial when anybody talks openly about Islam.  There will always some who will strongly disagree.  As long as it is with ideas and nonviolence, no harm done.


    That is true, even Deeyah Khans ex Muslim documentary was considered to be Islamophobic/controversial even to people who didn't even watch it.

    But, the problem with a lot of ex Muslims in the public sphere is they end up not coming across as someone who is reasonable/relatable. To be honest, when I watched Maryam Namazie debate Tariq Ramadan I couldn't stop cringing because a lot of the things she said could of easily been argued against, plus she didn't do herself any favours when she called Tariq Ramadan an Islamist despite the fact she had used the term to refer to AlQaeda, ISIS, Boko Haram, Muslim Brotherhood etc. It is those kind of generalisations, including the use of Ayaans categories which I have mentioned in previous posts, which makes ex Muslims seem like they have gone to otherside and turned anti Muslim or anti Islam, rather than just accepted that they don't believe anymore.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #73 - October 18, 2016, 01:44 AM

    I don't have any good answers for you, SilentM.  Have you addressed your thoughts to Maryam ?  I am sure she would appreciate feedback.

  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #74 - October 18, 2016, 10:05 AM

    Sorry about that Yeez, the link doesn't work properly ....

    yes... yes that link is not working so i got the link from her face book which links to full article ., let me put that here in its entirety
    Quote
    Why Islam Needs a Reformation  By  AYAAN HIRSI ALI   Updated March 20, 2015 10:00 a.m. ET

    "To defeat the extremists for good, Muslims must reject those aspects of their tradition that prompt some believers to resort to oppression and holy war" ....  Ayaan Hirsi Ali

    “Islam’s borders are bloody,” wrote the late political scientist Samuel Huntington in 1996, “and so are its innards.” Nearly 20 years later, Huntington looks more right than ever before. According to the International Institute for Strategic Studies, at least 70% of all the fatalities in armed conflicts around the world last year were in wars involving Muslims. In 2013, there were nearly 12,000 terrorist attacks world-wide. The lion’s share were in Muslim-majority countries, and many of the others were carried out by Muslims. By far the most numerous victims of Muslim violence—including executions and lynchings not captured in these statistics—are Muslims themselves.

    Not all of this violence is explicitly motivated by religion, but a great deal of it is. I believe that it is foolish to insist, as Western leaders habitually do, that the violent acts committed in the name of Islam can somehow be divorced from the religion itself. For more than a decade, my message has been simple: Islam is not a religion of peace.

    When I assert this, I do not mean that Islamic belief makes all Muslims violent. This is manifestly not the case: There are many millions of peaceful Muslims in the world. What I do say is that the call to violence and the justification for it are explicitly stated in the sacred texts of Islam. Moreover, this theologically sanctioned violence is there to be activated by any number of offenses, including but not limited to apostasy, adultery, blasphemy and even something as vague as threats to family honor or to the honor of Islam itself.

    It is not just al Qaeda and Islamic State that show the violent face of Islamic faith and practice. It is Pakistan, where any statement critical of the Prophet or Islam is labeled as blasphemy and punishable by death. It is Saudi Arabia, where churches and synagogues are outlawed and where beheadings are a legitimate form of punishment. It is Iran, where stoning is an acceptable punishment and homosexuals are hanged for their “crime.”

    As I see it, the fundamental problem is that the majority of otherwise peaceful and law-abiding Muslims are unwilling to acknowledge, much less to repudiate, the theological warrant for intolerance and violence embedded in their own religious texts. It simply will not do for Muslims to claim that their religion has been “hijacked” by extremists. The killers of Islamic State and Nigeria’s Boko Haram cite the same religious texts that every other Muslim in the world considers sacrosanct.

    Instead of letting Islam off the hook with bland clichés about the religion of peace, we in the West need to challenge and debate the very substance of Islamic thought and practice. We need to hold Islam accountable for the acts of its most violent adherents and to demand that it reform or disavow the key beliefs that are used to justify those acts.

    As it turns out, the West has some experience with this sort of reformist project. It is precisely what took place in Judaism and Christianity over the centuries, as both traditions gradually consigned the violent passages of their own sacred texts to the past. Many parts of the Bible and the Talmud reflect patriarchal norms, and both also contain many stories of harsh human and divine retribution. As President Barack Obama said in remarks at the National Prayer Breakfast last month, “Remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ.”

    Yet today, because their faiths went through a long, meaningful process of Reformation and Enlightenment, the vast majority of Jews and Christians have come to dismiss religious scripture that urges intolerance or violence. There are literalist fringes in both religions, but they are true fringes. Regrettably, in Islam, it is the other way around: It is those seeking religious reform who are the fringe element.

    Any serious discussion of Islam must begin with its core creed, which is based on the Quran (the words said to have been revealed by the Angel Gabriel to the Prophet Muhammad) and the hadith (the accompanying works that detail Muhammad’s life and words). Despite some sectarian differences, this creed unites all Muslims. All, without exception, know by heart these words: “I bear witness that there is no God but Allah; and Muhammad is His messenger.” This is the Shahada, the Muslim profession of faith.

    The Shahada might seem to be a declaration of belief no different from any other. But the reality is that the Shahada is both a religious and a political symbol.

    In the early days of Islam, when Muhammad was going from door to door in Mecca trying to persuade the polytheists to abandon their idols of worship, he was inviting them to accept that there was no god but Allah and that he was Allah’s messenger.

    After 10 years of trying this kind of persuasion, however, he and his small band of believers went to Medina, and from that moment, Muhammad’s mission took on a political dimension. Unbelievers were still invited to submit to Allah, but after Medina, they were attacked if they refused. If defeated, they were given the option to convert or to die. (Jews and Christians could retain their faith if they submitted to paying a special tax.)

    No symbol represents the soul of Islam more than the Shahada. But today there is a contest within Islam for the ownership of that symbol. Who owns the Shahada? Is it those Muslims who want to emphasize Muhammad’s years in Mecca or those who are inspired by his conquests after Medina? On this basis, I believe that we can distinguish three different groups of Muslims.

    The first group is the most problematic. These are the fundamentalists who, when they say the Shahada, mean: “We must live by the strict letter of our creed.” They envision a regime based on Shariah, Islamic religious law. They argue for an Islam largely or completely unchanged from its original seventh-century version. What is more, they take it as a requirement of their faith that they impose it on everyone else.

    I shall call them Medina Muslims, in that they see the forcible imposition of Shariah as their religious duty. They aim not just to obey Muhammad’s teaching but also to emulate his warlike conduct after his move to Medina. Even if they do not themselves engage in violence, they do not hesitate to condone it.

    It is Medina Muslims who call Jews and Christians “pigs and monkeys.” It is Medina Muslims who prescribe death for the crime of apostasy, death by stoning for adultery and hanging for homosexuality. It is Medina Muslims who put women in burqas and beat them if they leave their homes alone or if they are improperly veiled.

    The second group—and the clear majority throughout the Muslim world—consists of Muslims who are loyal to the core creed and worship devoutly but are not inclined to practice violence. I call them Mecca Muslims. Like devout Christians or Jews who attend religious services every day and abide by religious rules in what they eat and wear, Mecca Muslims focus on religious observance. I was born in Somalia and raised as a Mecca Muslim. So were the majority of Muslims from Casablanca to Jakarta.

    Yet the Mecca Muslims have a problem: Their religious beliefs exist in an uneasy tension with modernity—the complex of economic, cultural and political innovations that not only reshaped the Western world but also dramatically transformed the developing world as the West exported it. The rational, secular and individualistic values of modernity are fundamentally corrosive of traditional societies, especially hierarchies based on gender, age and inherited status.

    Trapped between two worlds of belief and experience, these Muslims are engaged in a daily struggle to adhere to Islam in the context of a society that challenges their values and beliefs at every turn. Many are able to resolve this tension only by withdrawing into self-enclosed (and increasingly self-governing) enclaves. This is called cocooning, a practice whereby Muslim immigrants attempt to wall off outside influences, permitting only an Islamic education for their children and disengaging from the wider non-Muslim community.

    It is my hope to engage this second group of Muslims—those closer to Mecca than to Medina—in a dialogue about the meaning and practice of their faith. I recognize that these Muslims are not likely to heed a call for doctrinal reformation from someone they regard as an apostate and infidel. But they may reconsider if I can persuade them to think of me not as an apostate but as a heretic: one of a growing number of people born into Islam who have sought to think critically about the faith we were raised in. It is with this third group—only a few of whom have left Islam altogether—that I would now identify myself.

    These are the Muslim dissidents. A few of us have been forced by experience to conclude that we could not continue to be believers; yet we remain deeply engaged in the debate about Islam’s future. The majority of dissidents are reforming believers—among them clerics who have come to realize that their religion must change if its followers are not to be condemned to an interminable cycle of political violence.

    How many Muslims belong to each group? Ed Husain of the Council on Foreign Relations estimates that only 3% of the world’s Muslims understand Islam in the militant terms I associate with Muhammad’s time in Medina. But out of well over 1.6 billion believers, or 23% of the globe’s population, that 48 million seems to be more than enough. (I would put the number significantly higher, based on survey data on attitudes toward Shariah in Muslim countries.)

    In any case, regardless of the numbers, it is the Medina Muslims who have captured the world’s attention on the airwaves, over social media, in far too many mosques and, of course, on the battlefield.

    The Medina Muslims pose a threat not just to non-Muslims. They also undermine the position of those Mecca Muslims attempting to lead a quiet life in their cultural cocoons throughout the Western world. But those under the greatest threat are the dissidents and reformers within Islam, who face ostracism and rejection, who must brave all manner of insults, who must deal with the death threats—or face death itself.

    For the world at large, the only viable strategy for containing the threat posed by the Medina Muslims is to side with the dissidents and reformers and to help them to do two things: first, identify and repudiate those parts of Muhammad’s legacy that summon Muslims to intolerance and war, and second, persuade the great majority of believers—the Mecca Muslims—to accept this change.

    Islam is at a crossroads. Muslims need to make a conscious decision to confront, debate and ultimately reject the violent elements within their religion. To some extent—not least because of widespread revulsion at the atrocities of Islamic State, al Qaeda and the rest—this process has already begun. But it needs leadership from the dissidents, and they in turn stand no chance without support from the West.

    What needs to happen for us to defeat the extremists for good? Economic, political, judicial and military tools have been proposed and some of them deployed. But I believe that these will have little effect unless Islam itself is reformed.

    Such a reformation has been called for repeatedly at least since the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the subsequent abolition of the caliphate. But I would like to specify precisely what needs to be reformed.

    I have identified five precepts central to Islam that have made it resistant to historical change and adaptation. Only when the harmfulness of these ideas are recognized and they are repudiated will a true Muslim Reformation have been achieved.

    Here are the five areas that require amendment:

    1. Muhammad’s semi-divine status, along with the literalist reading of the Quran.
    Muhammad should not be seen as infallible, let alone as a source of divine writ. He should be seen as a historical figure who united the Arab tribes in a premodern context that cannot be replicated in the 21st century. And although Islam maintains that the Quran is the literal word of Allah, it is, in historical reality, a book that was shaped by human hands. Large parts of the Quran simply reflect the tribal values of the 7th-century Arabian context from which it emerged. The Quran’s eternal spiritual values must be separated from the cultural accidents of the place and time of its birth.

    2. The supremacy of life after death.
    The appeal of martyrdom will fade only when Muslims assign a greater value to the rewards of this life than to those promised in the hereafter.

    3. Shariah, the vast body of religious legislation.
    Muslims should learn to put the dynamic, evolving laws made by human beings above those aspects of Shariah that are violent, intolerant or anachronistic.

    4. The right of individual Muslims to enforce Islamic law.
    There is no room in the modern world for religious police, vigilantes and politically empowered clerics.

    5. The imperative to wage jihad, or holy war.
    Islam must become a true religion of peace, which means rejecting the imposition of religion by the sword.

    I know that this argument will make many Muslims uncomfortable. Some are bound to be offended by my proposed amendments. Others will contend that I am not qualified to discuss these complex issues of theology and law. I am also afraid—genuinely afraid—that it will make a few Muslims even more eager to silence me.

    But this is not a work of theology. It is more in the nature of a public intervention in the debate about the future of Islam. The biggest obstacle to change within the Muslim world is precisely its suppression of the sort of critical thinking I am attempting here. If my proposal for reform helps to spark a serious discussion of these issues among Muslims themselves, I will consider it a success.

    Let me make two things clear. I do not seek to inspire another war on terror or extremism—violence in the name of Islam cannot be ended by military means alone. Nor am I any sort of “Islamophobe.” At various times, I myself have been all three kinds of Muslim: a fundamentalist, a cocooned believer and a dissident. My journey has gone from Mecca to Medina to Manhattan.

    For me, there seemed no way to reconcile my faith with the freedoms I came to the West to embrace. I left the faith, despite the threat of the death penalty prescribed by Shariah for apostates. Future generations of Muslims deserve better, safer options. Muslims should be able to welcome modernity, not be forced to wall themselves off, or live in a state of cognitive dissonance, or lash out in violent rejection.

    But it is not only Muslims who would benefit from a reformation of Islam. We in the West have an enormous stake in how the struggle over Islam plays out. We cannot remain on the sidelines, as though the outcome has nothing to do with us. For if the Medina Muslims win and the hope for a Muslim Reformation dies, the rest of the world too will pay an enormous price—not only in blood spilled but also in freedom lost.

    Quote
    This essay is adapted from Ms. Hirsi Ali’s new book, “Heretic: Why Islam Needs a Reformation Now,” to be published Tuesday by HarperCollins (which, like The Wall Street Journal, is owned by News Corp). Her previous books include “Infidel” and “Nomad: From Islam to America, A Personal Journey Through the Clash of Civilizations.”


    Silent_M   Please read through whole article ,we will discuss it...
    Quote
    The article you posted was interesting and makes some valid points.

    Well we will also discuss that TFT article.,  as that article is based on that above  WSJ article of Ms. Hirsi Ali’s . So I also read through  some of your posts.,  but I never paid attention to them... Interesting posts .,  Until I read your posts didn't know much about you  and I understand your line of thinking.,  we will discuss your posts  but please take care of yourself  ....It is problematic time for you., But once you get over that line., sky is the limit for freedom and freethinking.

     Anyways I suggest to you you don't need to declare yourself as  Ex_Muslim to any one  not even to close friends  or even on this forum.,   I say where you are living  now, ...... The place ..the pets around you ..the best thing to do is put yourself in to Agnostic Muslim basket..  .. say for e.g.,  you are a Muslim like those Sufi Islamic heretics of the past.

     Again as i said before  "THERE IS NO SCARED COW "  one must have freedom to criticize any one any idea anytime  and anywhere.  Ms. Hirsi Ali no exception to that rule..
      
    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #75 - October 18, 2016, 11:05 AM

    Here's a recent interview where she goes over her story and talks about her current ideas. It was recorded in Denmark and there's some Danish  tat the start but the interview is in English. This just came up for me at random on youtube but I thought it was interesting.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ntA9xZClEK4&ebc=ANyPxKqISCO1oNvr3HL22OldewVFoRRcPn3PKBxCZaJhX3SLTckJN9Ssahn057lYfbheluWLyiC1uJa3n8sygvT8Vd74vgn_xg

    So zeca.. it may be interesting but  what is your opinion on that and what is your constructive criticism on that video ., I guess I should put all her stuff in to that  Ms. Hirsi Ali's folder..

    and..and you didn't respond to SilentMancunian's response to your  video post link   . I am just curious about your views on early Islamic history  understanding of  SilentMancunian

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #76 - October 18, 2016, 04:11 PM

    Yeez - I may not be the best person to be discussing Ayaan. I'm probably one of the few people on here to have never paid her much attention. I think watching the Zembla documentary is the first time I've watched her speaking. On reflection I probably came to some unfair judgements on her character (as opposed to her political choices, as far as the two can be separated). I still think her version of her life story should probably be treated with a bit of caution. I appreciate the discussion from puzzlelover and SilentMancunian and I'm not sure I've got too much to add to it. I found the interview interesting in part because it's dealing with the same issues - her life story and her latest Mecca/Medina/reforming Islam ideas - that are being discussed on the thread. I think SilentMancunian is right to describe some of her ideas as simplistic, and that's a word that came to mind while I was watching it. I'll think some more about the early Islam part and come back to it.

    Edit: To add to the above, I get a general impression of the style and presentation of what she says being more impressive than the substance. I think the talk of Mecca Muslims and Medina Muslims is unfortunate and confused, and I'd say she's making a mistake trying to present her arguments this way. It's the kind of thing that might be OK in a discussion on here but you might expect more from a public figure with an academic background in political science. It's conflating different things. There's the real distinction between the majority of ordinary Muslims and the (usually rather modern) literalists looking back to a partly imaginary past. There's the real history of the development of early Islam, as far as any solid conclusions can be drawn about it. Then there's the semi-mythical Muhammad and early Islam of the Muslim imagination, which may in fact count for more than anything that actually happened. After all myths believed by millions of people take on a kind of reality of their own. For myself I'd rather these things weren't mixed up.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #77 - October 18, 2016, 04:15 PM

    I don't have any good answers for you, SilentM.  Have you addressed your thoughts to Maryam ?  I am sure she would appreciate feedback.


    In all honesty, I don't see any point. Maryam is a political representative of her organisation and her approach in the public is catered so that she reaches out to the right sort of people who will finance her organisation. Personally, I believe her approach is far better than Ayaan's, as she calls for an enlightenment rather than act like some kind of reformist, but I believe the manner in which she uses the term Islamist is done intentionally, as it allow her to ally herself with 'Muslim Dissidents' which is where the money is.

    If you take someone like Maajid Nawaz, and his Quilliam Foundation, their engagement in the public sphere as reformists of Islam has come about by Non-Muslim funding rather than through a grassroot movement within a Muslim community trying to make a change. The reason why they use terms like 'Islamist' as being part of 'Islam's Far Right' rather than as a term which groups all type of political Muslims (including themselves), whether on the right or left, is so that they can make space for themselves as the one's with the plan to reform Islam, when in reality they are not in a position to do so. It is all about putting money in their pocket rather than government fully engaging with Muslim communities and identifying which one's are making progress and financing them. It basically allows governments, and non-Muslims who want Islam to modernise, to be lazy and act like they are doing something to tackle the problems rather than being actively involved in making changes.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #78 - October 18, 2016, 04:47 PM

    yes... yes that link is not working so i got the link from her face book which links to full article ., let me put that here in its entirety
    Silent_M   Please read through whole article ,we will discuss it...Well we will also discuss that TFT article.,  as that article is based on that above  WSJ article of Ms. Hirsi Ali’s . So I also read through  some of your posts.,  but I never paid attention to them... Interesting posts .,  Until I read your posts didn't know much about you  and I understand your line of thinking.,  we will discuss your posts  but please take care of yourself  ....It is problematic time for you., But once you get over that line., sky is the limit for freedom and freethinking.

    I've already read through it, since I've already written a lot on this subject I will wait for your response before adding more.

     Anyways I suggest to you you don't need to declare yourself as  Ex_Muslim to any one  not even to close friends  or even on this forum.,   I say where you are living  now, ...... The place ..the pets around you ..the best thing to do is put yourself in to Agnostic Muslim basket..  .. say for e.g.,  you are a Muslim like those Sufi Islamic heretics of the past.


    To be honest, I don't see myself as ever being able to adopt the Agnostic Muslim tag on a long term basis. A lot of Muslims already know that I identity myself using Agnostic/Atheist/Secularist/Humanist and there hasn't been much problems. However, if someone hostile approaches me I might adopt the Agnostic Muslim identity which Hassan Radwan has promoted, it seems like something I can pull off while I remain in the closet.

    The only issue I might have is that Muslims, who still go along with thinking I'm Muslim, know I don't pray (not even Jumah or Eid prayer) so I might look into Atheist Muslim and see whether it is something that I can pull off without causing any problems.
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #79 - October 19, 2016, 12:36 PM

    I've already read through it, since I've already written a lot on this subject I will wait for your response before adding more.

    sure ..I will.,I will  SilentM.,   but I am one of those guys who go much deeper when it come to faiths and faith heads ., So it takes times...

    There is confusion in this folder., and some how we need to filter facts and isolate History of Islam   from  Islam critics, Islam haters, Islamist hater  and Muslim haters ..  More importantly what path ways and routes we should take to change  the dynamics of the world with reference to Muslim folks .,  Political Islam., Islamic heroes and Islamic history., So it takes times but  we will discuss all these subjects and  please continue to read and write  in to the forum
    Quote
     ...To be honest, I don't see myself as ever being able to adopt the Agnostic Muslim tag on a long term basis. A lot of Muslims already know that I identity myself using Agnostic/Atheist/Secularist/Humanist and there hasn't been much problems. However, if someone hostile approaches me I might adopt the Agnostic Muslim identity which Hassan Radwan has promoted, it seems like something I can pull off while I remain in the closet.

    The only issue I might have is that Muslims, who still go along with thinking I'm Muslim, know I don't pray (not even Jumah or Eid prayer) so I might look into Atheist Muslim and see whether it is something that I can pull off without causing any problems. ..

    well choose whatever is the best way to act, in a given event,  in a given time and given situation  ..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #80 - November 11, 2023, 10:23 AM

    Why I am now a Christian: https://unherd.com/2023/11/why-i-am-now-a-christian/
  • Why do some ex-Muslims call Ayan Hirsi a liar?
     Reply #81 - November 11, 2023, 02:05 PM

    her rambling boring article basically says she's decided to become a cultural christian - which is simply being an atheist in the western tradition.

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