SubbyX

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OP - July 02, 2017, 07:10 PM

Wow, where do I start?

So like most British Pakistanis, I was raised in a Muslim household, sent to mosque and taught that there is one God and Muhammad is his messenger. I was taught that I must follow the teachings of the Quran, follow the Sunnah of the prophet and avoid anything that is Haraam.

I've always been a skeptical person and from I'd say age 9 or 10, would have questions such as, "how would Allah be able to fit into this world on judgement day, if he is so big?"

I would always suppress these thoughts and thought nothing of it.

Then, I hit age 11 and my anxiety and OCD (now well controlled that it's strange I suffered from this) got really bad. I would have odd questions and worries like "what if I end up lonely?" or "what if something horrible happens to me that fucks my life up forever?"

After many weeks I then thought, ah, who cares, when I die, I'm going heaven, this world means nothing. Moments later I thought, "but is there a heaven that I'm going to go to?" Right there everything changed for me. EVERYTHING.

For over a year I would question Islam, ask my mum questions, my uncle, my mosque teachers, I would have a list of doubts and questions I had which grew every day, but was so scared to admit that Islam may be false. Sometimes it became so overwhelming that I would want to just give up with life and that way I would find out the truth easily. This was not healthy thinking for a pre-teen. I lost a lot of weight at this point, my confidence sunk, my skin colour changed....it was a horrible time.

At age 13, I then left Islam............only to come back to it at about 15, but in belief, not practice. I told no one.

Last year in my final year of school, I became a conservative and extremely interested in conservative ideas. As the right wing tackle BLM supporters, Feminists, socialists, etc, I noticed one group I didn't understand the criticism of from conservatives, Muslims.

After further analysis, reading, listening and opening up my mind further, I then accepted the evil in Islam at the start of this year, not long before turning 19. How could I believe in a religion that calls for the execution of homosexuals. That is extremely sexist and is associated with violence wherever it is?

Just like when I was 13, I felt a weight lifted off of my shoulders. It feels so good to no longer be chained to a fascist ideology. I no longer have to care about stupid little things like what I hand I eat with, listening to music, praying 5 times a day which is a HUGE INCONVENIENCE by the way, etc. Drinking, weed, pork, it's all good in moderation.

I never had a father to shove religion down my throat which is what I think makes me different from other Pakistani lads my age. I don't think anyone should be taught to follow a religion or any set of ideas. We should be taught HOW to think, not WHAT to think.

After recently debating the nature of Islam with my uncle on Eid day (a few days back), becoming more and more open of my criticism of Islam and FINALLY meeting an apostate the other day who told me about the forum (free spirit) and whose family has known mine for years now, I am on the verge of letting my community know.

(TL;DR) My mind is out of that cage. I feel so free and little scared. Nevertheless I will make it my mission to expose the evil of Islam. I know that my life will be at risk, but it's something I feel that I have to do and am willing to face the backlash from the Muslim community. I have seen the ins and outs of it. Islam is the one factor that can make a good honest man or woman into the most evil human being out there. It needs to stop.
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Reply #1 - July 02, 2017, 08:57 PM

Welcome. You have some strong feelings on this, I see. I don't view Islam as a doorway into evil, as you seem to. Why do you feel it turns people bad when you know so many nice Muslims?

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Reply #2 - July 02, 2017, 09:34 PM

I don't agree with that sentiment either. I have many reasons to dislike Islam but it takes a very simplistic mindset to come to that conclusion. Good people will strive to stick to their principles, no matter the situation. Islam gives people who were already evil some very convenient tools to justify their evil behaviour/character. But if what the OP is saying is true, good people who happen to be Muslims would not put a lot of time into interpreting the religion in a way that would make it more tolerant. Rather, they would take the robotic approach of following the harsh interpretations of the scripture without objection.
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Reply #3 - July 02, 2017, 09:55 PM

It reinforces tribalism. The Quran regularly groups people based on their beliefs i.e "non-believers" and the Muslims. It creates division and that way, the Muslims look down upon the "kufaar."

You are taught that the Islamic way of life is the best and anything else will get you into hell. It creates resentment and in many cases intolerance towards others.

The Quran is seen as the word of God therefore it is perfect. Even though my friends may say they wouldn't PERSONALLY kill a gay person, they would say if God commands it, it is OK. This is either because they actually believe it is OK or that they are simply scared of Allah, as Islam gains control through fear. This is rooted in the nature of the religion. It has been spread by the sword and many of the verses make it clear that the non-Muslims are going hell. And the way that hell has been described and is taught to us as children frightens people and through this fear, would stick by their religion no matter what.

If God told them to kill someone, they'd do it. Just like when God asked Ibrahim to sacrifice his son for God. Even though it didn't happen in the end, the moral of the story is that if God asks of something, you should do it to show your true love for God, even if it is immoral. Nobody wants to talk about how a prophet was about to kill his son, but about how God instructed him to slaughter his son "to show his love." Some would say the love (for Allah), like love generally, is blinding, I would say in this case, fear is what is blinding.

There's no doubt that some Muslims are good and I want to make that very clear, but many are really terrible. If myself and Free Spirit told our communities what we believe, then our history with our family and friends would mean nothing at all. The content of our characters would hold no weight. Hardly any of the "moderates" are practicing Muslims but the moment we declare that we have disowned our religious beliefs, it is scary to think what would happen. Our own flesh and blood. Those we went to school with. In the name of religion, would turn their backs on us. I plan on doing this soon and expect that many ties will be cut.

Also, Sharia/Islamic law itself shows the evil in Islam. Executing Gays. Executing Apostates. Not allowing women to leave their homes without their husband's permission. I cannot say that this is a religion of peace.

Again, a number of Muslims are peaceful. Maajid Nawaaz, a Muslim reformer who I have a lot of respect for is a perfect example. But as the Quran is seen as the literal word of God and as the perfect book, reform can't be done. If so, it would be very very difficult. Who is to say that the violent and extreme interpreters are wrong, and that the peaceful interpreters are right? The Quran is ambiguous and it has been used, yes, to teach good things, but also some very horrible things as well.

If any of those peaceful Muslims left Islam, I believe they would still be peaceful, you don't need religion to tell you to respect your parents. If the extremists left their religion, or were never Muslims, I think it is unlikely they would still think it is OK to bomb arenas with 8 year olds.

I hate that Islam wants control over every aspect of your life. I hate its extreme teachings. I hate that in the UK I can't comfortably say what I believe in because of it. I hate that it has orchestrated many attacks in my home country. It has played a huge factor in my life in a negative way and I despise that.

I will always stand by the peaceful Muslims, I want their views to flourish and I want more people like them so Islam and the west can co-exist. That can't happen looking at the way things are right now.
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Reply #4 - July 02, 2017, 09:57 PM

I know I'm rambling on a bit but I feel that I have so much to say about Islam. It's something I just feel really strongly about.
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Reply #5 - July 02, 2017, 11:04 PM

Quote from: SubbyX on July 02, 2017, 09:55 PM
It reinforces tribalism. The Quran regularly groups people based on their beliefs i.e "non-believers" and the Muslims. It creates division and that way, the Muslims look down upon the "kufaar."

You are taught that the Islamic way of life is the best and anything else will get you into hell. It creates resentment and in many cases intolerance towards others.

The Quran is seen as the word of God therefore it is perfect. Even though my friends may say they wouldn't PERSONALLY kill a gay person, they would say if God commands it, it is OK. This is either because they actually believe it is OK or that they are simply scared of Allah, as Islam gains control through fear. This is rooted in the nature of the religion. It has been spread by the sword and many of the verses make it clear that the non-Muslims are going hell. And the way that hell has been described and is taught to us as children frightens people and through this fear, would stick by their religion no matter what.

If God told them to kill someone, they'd do it. Just like when God asked Ibrahim to sacrifice his son for God. Even though it didn't happen in the end, the moral of the story is that if God asks of something, you should do it to show your true love for God, even if it is immoral. Nobody wants to talk about how a prophet was about to kill his son, but about how God instructed him to slaughter his son "to show his love." Some would say the love (for Allah), like love generally, is blinding, I would say in this case, fear is what is blinding.

There's no doubt that some Muslims are good and I want to make that very clear, but many are really terrible. If myself and Free Spirit told our communities what we believe, then our history with our family and friends would mean nothing at all. The content of our characters would hold no weight. Hardly any of the "moderates" are practicing Muslims but the moment we declare that we have disowned our religious beliefs, it is scary to think what would happen. Our own flesh and blood. Those we went to school with. In the name of religion, would turn their backs on us. I plan on doing this soon and expect that many ties will be cut.

Also, Sharia/Islamic law itself shows the evil in Islam. Executing Gays. Executing Apostates. Not allowing women to leave their homes without their husband's permission. I cannot say that this is a religion of peace.

Again, a number of Muslims are peaceful. Maajid Nawaaz, a Muslim reformer who I have a lot of respect for is a perfect example. But as the Quran is seen as the literal word of God and as the perfect book, reform can't be done. If so, it would be very very difficult. Who is to say that the violent and extreme interpreters are wrong, and that the peaceful interpreters are right? The Quran is ambiguous and it has been used, yes, to teach good things, but also some very horrible things as well.

If any of those peaceful Muslims left Islam, I believe they would still be peaceful, you don't need religion to tell you to respect your parents. If the extremists left their religion, or were never Muslims, I think it is unlikely they would still think it is OK to bomb arenas with 8 year olds.

I hate that Islam wants control over every aspect of your life. I hate its extreme teachings. I hate that in the UK I can't comfortably say what I believe in because of it. I hate that it has orchestrated many attacks in my home country. It has played a huge factor in my life in a negative way and I despise that.

I will always stand by the peaceful Muslims, I want their views to flourish and I want more people like them so Islam and the west can co-exist. That can't happen looking at the way things are right now.

You are simultaneously describing beliefs held by Muslims and also Christians. I grew up with plenty of hate-filled intolerant superiority complexed Christians. Islam is not the only demon on this front. Every single religion and ideology creates an us vs. them mindset. All communities believe themselves to be superior, else why form at all? Extreme teachings and opinions are at backyard barbecues in the Deep South and now contributing to the bloodshed in the Central African Republic. It's a language we have to counter everywhere and it does not show loyalty to any particular view.

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Reply #6 - July 02, 2017, 11:04 PM

Quote from: SubbyX on July 02, 2017, 09:57 PM
I know I'm rambling on a bit but I feel that I have so much to say about Islam. It's something I just feel really strongly about.

No apologies, this is a good thing.

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Reply #7 - July 02, 2017, 11:24 PM

In my mum's country of origin they still beat and kill witches and homosexuals, especially in the rural parts. The people doing these things are Christians.

They used to take the Bible literally here in Britain too. Look at what happened to the witches and the heretics. Then reform happened and Christianity lost a lot of its influence. The same can happen with Islam. In fact, secularism was beginning to thrive in the Middle East only a few decades ago. That was before it was being used as a gambling ground for world powers.
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Reply #8 - July 02, 2017, 11:43 PM

Think of it this way. You WOULD have been surprised if the 2 attacks in London this year or in Manchester were carried out my Christians.

If a Christian went into prison, came out and then said you know what, I feel like really connected with some Christians in the cell, I feel more in touch with my religion and now I plan on going to visit some holy countries. If it was a Muslim (especially from the UK) and he went to I don't know, Syria after being released from prison after saying all of that, you'd probably be concerned.

But besides all of that, both of your responses were expected. I knew I was gonna get the "but Christians too!" argument. I get that. Read my other thread.

This doesn't change the fact that Islam is evil to its core. Yes, other religions have their flaws, but I'm not here to talk about them. I'm talking about a religion I have been a part of. Just because Christianity has its flaws, the problems in Islam don't disappear all of a sudden.
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Reply #9 - July 02, 2017, 11:57 PM

Nearly every thread on this forum which discusses Islam criticises it. I think that you will find that not one of the regular members on this forum denies that Islam has some huge problems.

What you will find people objecting to is your claim that it is the only religion that is used to justify violence and atrocities, which simply isn't true. There are people on one end of the spectrum who deny the role of Islam in certain atrocities and there are people on the other end who like to pretend that Islam is the only ideology that plays a role in violence. Both are factually incorrect, that's why it's relevant to bring other religions into the equation as examples.

There is also your claim that Islam cannot be reformed. We had a far-right member here not long ago who said the same thing. He said that as a result he wanted to subjugate Muslims and deprive them of their civil liberties in order to save us all from the inevitable Islamic takeover. People with that sort of mentality are dangerous extremists themselves, and they are actually talking about harming our families and people we care about.

So I'm curious to know: if you do not believe that Islam can be reformed then what is it that you want to happen?
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Reply #10 - July 03, 2017, 12:07 AM

Quote from: SubbyX on July 02, 2017, 11:43 PM
Think of it this way. You WOULD have been surprised if the 2 attacks in London this year or in Manchester were carried out my Christians.

If a Christian went into prison, came out and then said you know what, I feel like really connected with some Christians in the cell, I feel more in touch with my religion and now I plan on going to visit some holy countries. If it was a Muslim (especially from the UK) and he went to I don't know, Syria after being released from prison after saying all of that, you'd probably be concerned.

But besides all of that, both of your responses were expected. I knew I was gonna get the "but Christians too!" argument. I get that. Read my other thread.

This doesn't change the fact that Islam is evil to its core. Yes, other religions have their flaws, but I'm not here to talk about them. I'm talking about a religion I have been a part of. Just because Christianity has its flaws, the problems in Islam don't disappear all of a sudden.

Where I live we are well aware that Christians are going around killing people. We have Christian snipers, Christian stabbers, Christian bombers, and those general crazies, too, who hear voices and shit. Yet all that makes the media are the Muslim ones. We are so accustomed to Christian violence that it doesn't even make the news. Our Christians also find God in the prisons and get out and go on speaking tours. You are just looking at this all backward. The problem is religion.
Yeah the problems in Islam don't disappear. Neither do the problems in Christianity-even if we give them no air time.
So what is Islam? Is it the canon, ummah, the history? Is it all three? Because most people think of Islam as being Muslims. This is not the case. So you don't think Muslims are evil, then what is in Islam? The canonical text, right? Let's get more precise.

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Reply #11 - July 03, 2017, 01:01 AM

Welcome to the forum SubbyX!

Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
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Let's Play Chess!

harakaat, friend, RIP
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Reply #12 - July 03, 2017, 12:41 PM

I was perhaps a little harsh with my first post. I completely understand your anger, resentment and bitterness. It's what a great many people go through when they first leave Islam and feel that they have been lied to for their whole lives. I felt a lot of bitterness and resentment. I spent almost a year feeling sorry for myself, bitching about Islam and isolating myself from family and friends. And feel free to bitch about it as much as you want, let it all out. But don't let the negativity cloud your judgement, so that you end up falling into the trap of supporting far-right ideas, such as banning Islam and deporting Muslims.

I have seen this happen to certain ex-Muslims, and it saddens me. They don't feel like they can get much support elsewhere, so they form alliances with the far-right. The problem is that they don't realise that these people do not care about them, rather they are seen as convenient tools to further some anti-Muslim agenda. Speak out of line and those same people will turn on your and subject you to racist abuse. I have seen this happen to Maajid Nawaz and the YouTuber IntrovertedSmiles.

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Reply #13 - July 03, 2017, 02:34 PM

Give this a read: https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=31050.msg870824#msg870824

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Reply #14 - July 03, 2017, 09:58 PM

Quote from: AGirlWithDoubts on July 02, 2017, 11:57 PM
What you will find people objecting to is your claim that it is the only religion that is used to justify violence and atrocities, which simply isn't true.

Woah woah woah, I don't recall saying that.

Quote
There are people on one end of the spectrum who deny the role of Islam in certain atrocities

Fools. Individuals who cannot only admit things to others, but also to themselves.

Quote
and there are people on the other end who like to pretend that Islam is the only ideology that plays a role in violence.

Unfortunately, yes, but I am not one of them, I have tried to make that clear.

Quote
that's why it's relevant to bring other religions into the equation as examples.

It's only relevant if we are talking about religion as a whole and if I said that Islam is the only religion inciting violence.

Like I said, I'm here to talk about a religion I have been a part of.

Quote
There is also your claim that Islam cannot be reformed. We had a far-right member here not long ago who said the same thing. He said that as a result he wanted to subjugate Muslims and deprive them of their civil liberties in order to save us all from the inevitable Islamic takeover. People with that sort of mentality are dangerous extremists themselves, and they are actually talking about harming our families and people we care about.

I am a right-winger, but I have never incited violence against Muslims, I would only use physical force in self-defence.

Quote
So I'm curious to know: if you do not believe that Islam can be reformed then what is it that you want to happen?

MAYBE reform. I'm not sure if it's possible. I don't think it is. But like I said in Hassan's thread, I might be wrong. I guess that thread was posted at a VERY convenient time. I've identified the problem, now I'm trying to work out the solution.

Quote from: three on July 03, 2017, 12:07 AM
Where I live we are well aware that Christians are going around killing people. We have Christian snipers, Christian stabbers, Christian bombers, and those general crazies, too, who hear voices and shit. Yet all that makes the media are the Muslim ones. We are so accustomed to Christian violence that it doesn't even make the news. Our Christians also find God in the prisons and get out and go on speaking tours. You are just looking at this all backward. The problem is religion.

Definitely. Now I am sure there are violent Christians out there. Like I said, I'm not denying that.

Quote
Yeah the problems in Islam don't disappear. Neither do the problems in Christianity-even if we give them no air time.

Again, I am here to talk about Islam, something I have had a direct experience with since as far back as I can remember. Religion is poison and it should be highlighted, but in this case, my intro thread, I'm talking specifically about Islam.

Quote
So what is Islam? Is it the canon, ummah, the history? Is it all three? Because most people think of Islam as being Muslims. This is not the case. So you don't think Muslims are evil, then what is in Islam? The canonical text, right? Let's get more precise.

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here, but I'd say both are the problem. Islam as it has its evil roots and Muslims as they follow it blindly without question. Even if not all Muslims are violent, many Muslims still have backwards views. Where I live, I don't think any of them would go out there and stab a police officer, but I can guarantee you that many of them are sexist, homophobic and intolerant.

Also, I read your intro thread, I hope everything is going good for you and your children right now.

Quote from: asbie on July 03, 2017, 01:01 AM
Welcome to the forum SubbyX!

Thanks for the welcome!

Quote from: AGirlWithDoubts on July 03, 2017, 12:41 PM
I was perhaps a little harsh with my first post. I completely understand your anger, resentment and bitterness. It's what a great many people go through when they first leave Islam and feel that they have been lied to for their whole lives. I felt a lot of bitterness and resentment. I spent almost a year feeling sorry for myself, bitching about Islam and isolating myself from family and friends. And feel free to bitch about it as much as you want, let it all out. But don't let the negativity cloud your judgement, so that you end up falling into the trap of supporting far-right ideas, such as banning Islam and deporting Muslims.

I like that view point. Who knows, maybe it's just a phase, or maybe I really do hate the religion. We'll see.

Quote
Welcome

Thank you.
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Reply #15 - July 04, 2017, 12:51 AM

I am not sure why you think Muslims are supposed to be better behaved or more liberal than anyone else. I live in a Christian pocket, where classmates tell my children I am going to hell because I don't attend church. We have all the ills here that you have mentioned Muslims possess.
I am not defending Islam. I will defend Muslims. I think Islam is just as flawed as most faiths, and the reason it does not progress properly is because of the Seal (on this day your religion perfected, nothing to come after, blah blah). Hassan has found a decent way around that.
So you are insisting the issue regarding badly behaved Muslims is Islam. And we can agree that the issue with badly behaved Christians could be Christianity. But it could be that people everywhere are using their religious beliefs to justify their ignorance or their violence. As their beliefs change, so might their behaviour, without that means to justify it. So really Islam is not, in my opinion, particularly special beyond the issue of the Seal.
I think we simply have a difference of opinion. My opinion is born of my own experiences, and I have followed more than one faith.
Thank you for your concern, the children are doing quite well now, especially if you compare them to the time I wrote my intro.

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Reply #16 - July 04, 2017, 01:28 PM

If I said anywhere that I think it is only Muslims that need to make a change, I retract that statement. But I can't see where I implied it.

Anyone can be an horrible human being. Muslims, Christians, atheists, etc. All of them need to make that change.

Muslims however are the ones currently that are posing a threat in ways which appear to be more apparent, especially here in the UK. Like you said, the main issue is that they are against reform, for the most part, which poses a huge issue. The other problem is that Islam has all the protection from the left.

Nobody criticises it openly like they do with Christianity. Yesterday at work my colleagues were talking about Christianity in a negative manner (which is fine). They were also criticising the Christian DUP party which is forming a coalition with our Conservative government for their comments on women, homosexuals and abortion.

I sit back and I think, "Islam is guilty for all of that, yet it gets the free pass." The problem then is that nobody thinks there's a problem with Islam, or admits it which allows the current form of the religion to flourish. With that comes the freedom of expression such as praying or going to the mosques, but you get the full package, you get the extremism too.

Another reason this poses a problem is that apostates have no one to turn to. I can't turn to atheists here for much support as they don't think or admit there's a problem. If Muslims themselves don't address these issues and invoke fear on to others, how do we expect non Muslims to do so?

This year I didn't keep one fast. Yes, the Muslims asked me why. You know who else was like "oh my god why not, isn't that bad??" Non Muslims. This Ramadan I realised that not only do I need to worry about what Muslims say, but other non Muslims too who expect me to conform to the religion of peace. No thanks.
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Reply #17 - July 04, 2017, 11:26 PM

Fortunately for us in the USA, our atheist orgs are often sympathetic. I am hoping our apostate organizations will continue to reach out to the atheist orgs and find common cause.
You are expressing what seems to be the biggest pet peeve among ex Muslims right now, and that is that Islam has become a liberal darling to an abusive extent, meaning that those of us struggling against the abuses of Islam are being hushed and sidelined by the liberals. This is a temporary situation, in my opinion. Eventually they will see their sentiments are misplaced, as I cannot recall them displaying any other favoritism of faith.
I hope the refusal to reform is also temporary. I think the push for polarization and the growing resentment against Salaf and Wahabi is going to be helpful, but I think it's too soon for an assessment. I had no hope at all of any change, ever, a few years ago and now I am more positive about it.

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Reply #18 - July 05, 2017, 01:15 AM

I knew/know good and bad muslims, but it seemed like the bad ones were in positions they shouldn't be, like heading mosque committees, or being my father. I didn't need that. The good ones don't really get to speak up because liberalism isn't really accepted in most Muslim communities.
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Reply #19 - July 05, 2017, 03:26 AM

Hey SubbyX, welcome to CEMB. I got impressions of Christopher Hitchens and the Sex Pistols reading your posts, though the latter might be because as I type this I'm listening to a 1978 interview with Johnny Rotten calling Jimmy Savile a pedo and saying he'd like to kill him. Quick question, you ever seen the mid-80's film Sid and Nancy?

I think christrianity is an easy target because it's viewed as a white religion, whereas islam is viewed as a minority religion, hence the view that criticism of islam = racism. Not that some bigots don't use islam as a vehicle for racism of course, which should obviously be called out.

Quote from: SubbyX on July 04, 2017, 01:28 PM
I sit back and I think, "Islam is guilty for all of that, yet it gets the free pass." The problem then is that nobody thinks there's a problem with Islam, or admits it which allows the current form of the religion to flourish. With that comes the freedom of expression such as praying or going to the mosques, but you get the full package, you get the extremism too.

Another reason this poses a problem is that apostates have no one to turn to. I can't turn to atheists here for much support as they don't think or admit there's a problem. If Muslims themselves don't address these issues and invoke fear on to others, how do we expect non Muslims to do so?

I call bullshit on the first point. Islam isn't a person, it's an idea. People have been justifying horrific shit based on arbitrary bollocks since the first caveman pointed at the sun and said "That bloke says you have to do so and so".

I also call bullshit on the second point. Anyone with a brain knows there's a problem with some schools of islamic thought, just hasn't known how to address it without demonising all brown people or being accused of demonising all brown people. Which again is a valid worry. but this confusion with criticising dogma and criticising human beings is counter-productive.

Third point, I don't know what you mean by "here"? If you mean CEMB, check the forum, there are countless posters talking about this shit. Yes people tend to come to the defence of your average muslim. That's the beauty of an ex-muslim forum, they have the balance between being a critic and being a bigot, since they themselves used to be believers. Unless you're for the idea of your family/friends having raw pork shoved in their face or their hijab ripped off while walking down the street, I'm guessing you understand the need for this balance, which I'm sure is part of the reason free spirit recommended you come here. Tell him I said hi by the way.

Also, welcome.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #20 - July 05, 2017, 01:34 PM

The first point is not bullshit, it's the truth. I never said Islam is a person, I made it very clear that individuals will easily criticise Christianity and conservatism, but will continue to refer to Islam as a religion of peace. The left will talk against anti-abortion laws, homophobia, sexism, etc, all features which Islam is guilty for. They will happily criticise conservatives and the DUP for being "anti-progressive" but will continue to protect Islam. This is an unholy alliance. There is a double standard here and is something Muslims like Linda Sarsour exploit and the left allows it. So it's not bullshit. It's something a lot more than that.

Secondly, based on what I just said, I don't think most believe that there is a problem with Islam as not everyone HAS a brain, or uses it for that matter. Furthermore, if you read what I said, I stated that they don't believe there's an issue OR admit it. For many, it might just be the latter.

This is my problem with Islam, it has been spread through and continues to spread fear. This is clear when you read the Qur'an. This is also true when 5 year olds are taught in our mosques that they will burn in hell for being bad Muslims or "dirty kuffars." This is not only why individuals don't admit these problems with Islam to others, but also to themselves which is concerning, as we live in societies which are valued for their freedoms, which Islam poses a threat against. It is taking away what is most precious to us.

And no, it is not a valid worry to address these issues. It is irrational to believe that you are a racist for criticising Islam. Islam is not a race. Like other ideologies, it is and should be open to criticism. It is irrational to think you are offending "brown" people by speaking the truth. This is a common tactic from the left, they want to associate race with everything. Being a Muslim and being brown have nothing to do with each other. One is a characteristic, the other is being part of a religion, a very evil one which wants total control of our lives and because of political correctness, it is seen as racist to call it out. All you are doing by calling this valid is reinforcing these irrational beliefs.

By "here" I'm referring to the UK.

Free spirit says hi back, by the way.

I've never watched Sid and Nancy, why do you ask?

Thank you for your welcome.
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Reply #21 - July 05, 2017, 01:43 PM

Quote from: SubbyX on July 05, 2017, 01:34 PM
I've never watched Sid and Nancy, why do you ask?

Like I said, I got a bit of a Sex Pistols vibe reading your posts.

Quote from: SubbyX on July 05, 2017, 01:34 PM
It is irrational to believe that you are a racist for criticising Islam. Islam is not a race. Like other ideologies, it is and should be open to criticism. It is irrational to think you are offending "brown" people by speaking the truth. This is a common tactic from the left, they want to associate race with everything. Being a Muslim and being brown have nothing to do with each other. One is a characteristic, the other is being part of a religion, a very evil one which wants total control of our lives and because of political correctness, it is seen as racist to call it out. All you are doing by calling this valid is reinforcing these irrational beliefs.

I never said otherwise, and I never said this view is valid. The closest I came to that was saying "Not that some bigots don't use islam as a vehicle for racism of course, which should obviously be called out."

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #22 - July 05, 2017, 03:48 PM

Oooh I just googled it. I've only heard one of their songs, God save the Queen.

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on July 05, 2017, 03:26 AM
I also call bullshit on the second point. Anyone with a brain knows there's a problem with some schools of islamic thought, just hasn't known how to address it without demonising all brown people or being accused of demonising all brown people. Which again is a valid worry. but this confusion with criticising dogma and criticising human beings is counter-productive.

This is what you said. Your words, not mine. I usually encourage my colleagues and other non Muslims, as well as Muslims themselves to criticise Islam when I can tell they are beating around the bush and trying to be nice. THAT is valid.

Open and honest discussions need to be encouraged. Political correctness is destructive and we need to overcome this, now, more than ever before.
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Reply #23 - July 05, 2017, 04:25 PM

Quote from: three on July 04, 2017, 11:26 PM
Fortunately for us in the USA, our atheist orgs are often sympathetic. I am hoping our apostate organizations will continue to reach out to the atheist orgs and find common cause.
You are expressing what seems to be the biggest pet peeve among ex Muslims right now, and that is that Islam has become a liberal darling to an abusive extent, meaning that those of us struggling against the abuses of Islam are being hushed and sidelined by the liberals. This is a temporary situation, in my opinion. Eventually they will see their sentiments are misplaced, as I cannot recall them displaying any other favoritism of faith.
I hope the refusal to reform is also temporary. I think the push for polarization and the growing resentment against Salaf and Wahabi is going to be helpful, but I think it's too soon for an assessment. I had no hope at all of any change, ever, a few years ago and now I am more positive about it.

Three, curious to know: which religions you have followed (you said more than one), general area of U.S. you reside in (South I understand) - but curious to know where you run into Christian religious bigotry and intolerance.

I am a bit shocked (not just by you, but also others on CEMB) when people say there is no specific difference in terms of violence, social disruptions and other negative outcomes of Islam when compared to other major world religions. It seems starkly clear to me that Islam is unique in the number of negative outcomes generated in today's world. But as a white person of Christian background I am probably blissfully unaware of some of the things you perceive.
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Reply #24 - July 05, 2017, 05:14 PM

Tommy is a hero to our country. It's a shame he's portrayed as a white working class football hooligan racist. It's time the hunted became the hunter and the hunters became the hunted.

I thought he did well against the fool Piers Morgan, but I give Piers credit for agreeing to provide him that platform to speak, despite the criticism.

And you're right when you say Islam is different at the moment in terms of the violence and hatred it releases into the world.

I'm quite surprised that other CEMB members are so soft on their criticism of Islam.
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Reply #25 - July 05, 2017, 06:30 PM

SubbyX you are the first ex-Muslim I have encountered who harbors positive thoughts and feelings about Tommy. I have received a lot of criticism on CEMB simply for arguing he is not a racist or a bigot.

But I am not a supporter (as GirlFromUSA) described me. I have misgivings about his confrontational style. His barging into the Quilliam offices being an example of that. I think that his main accurate point about the cowardice and hypocrisy of British politicians and police when dealing with muslim extremism gets lost when he uses such confrontational tactics. And that is a great shame because he has a very good point to make.

I would be interested to read more from you on your intellectual journey to conservatism. You can mail me directly if you don't feel like sharing that on the general board.
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Reply #26 - July 05, 2017, 09:07 PM

Quote from: SubbyX on July 05, 2017, 05:14 PM
Tommy is a hero to our country. It's a shame he's portrayed as a white working class football hooligan racist. It's time the hunted became the hunter and the hunters became the hunted.

I thought he did well against the fool Piers Morgan, but I give Piers credit for agreeing to provide him that platform to speak, despite the criticism.

And you're right when you say Islam is different at the moment in terms of the violence and hatred it releases into the world.

I'm quite surprised that other CEMB members are so soft on their criticism of Islam.

Oh, you're one of those.

It's not surprising that you want to deport Muslims then. You two deserve each other.

FYI you did suggest that other religions don't inspire violent behaviour, reread your OP in you other thread. That is why we brought up Christianity, it isn't a mere case of whataboutery.

Why are you surprised? We are anti-Islamism and some are even anti-Islam but I rarely come across an ex-Muslim who is anti-Muslim. Why would you expect us to be? The majority of the people I care about the most are Muslims.

In my view anti-Muslim bigots are just as bad as Islamists. A lot of them are closeted racists who disguise their hatred for people who look a certain way as criticism of a religion.They disguise it very badly though. It doesn't take much winding up to make their veil drop. If you're a person of colour and you view them as allies then you are a fool.
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Reply #27 - July 05, 2017, 09:42 PM

Quote from: SubbyX on July 05, 2017, 05:14 PM
Tommy is a hero to our country. It's a shame he's portrayed as a white working class football hooligan racist. It's time the hunted became the hunter and the hunters became the hunted.

I thought he did well against the fool Piers Morgan, but I give Piers credit for agreeing to provide him that platform to speak, despite the criticism.

And you're right when you say Islam is different at the moment in terms of the violence and hatred it releases into the world.

I'm quite surprised that other CEMB members are so soft on their criticism of Islam.

He's not a hero at all. He's racist scumbag who inspired white supremacists to think it's ok to shout and attack anyone remotely foreign or coloured. He really is a hooligan. I won't listen to anything he has to say because of what he created with EDL.
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Reply #28 - July 05, 2017, 09:50 PM

Quote from: SubbyX on July 02, 2017, 07:10 PM
So like most British Pakistanis.......

Quote from: SubbyX on July 05, 2017, 05:14 PM
Tommy is a hero to our country.

you do realise people like that will use you for the tool you appear to be.
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Reply #29 - July 05, 2017, 09:55 PM

Quote from: SubbyX on July 05, 2017, 05:14 PM
It's time the hunted became the hunter and the hunters became the hunted.

what does that mean?
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