Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


What music are you listen...
by zeca
November 24, 2024, 06:05 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
November 22, 2024, 02:51 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
November 22, 2024, 06:45 AM

Gaza assault
November 21, 2024, 07:56 PM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
November 21, 2024, 05:07 PM

New Britain
November 20, 2024, 05:41 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
November 20, 2024, 09:02 AM

Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
November 19, 2024, 11:36 PM

Dutch elections
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 10:11 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 08:46 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
November 07, 2024, 09:56 AM

The origins of Judaism
by zeca
November 02, 2024, 12:56 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Is Islamic Reform Possible

 (Read 13420 times)
  • Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Is Islamic Reform Possible
     Reply #30 - July 07, 2017, 03:35 PM




    Unifier what is happening ??   why  are you posting this STUPID PICTURE in every post ? and why you are posting all that  under SubbyX  post link  when he did not write that?  All this  stuff

    Quote
    I am not asking this question defensively as the unconventional Christian believer I undoubtedly am, but I honestly want to know where you can find any divine sanction or instruction to violence either by God or Jesus in the NT?   Jesus lost his temper at the temple and overturned the merchant's and money lender's tables - so certainly a bout of bad temper.   Someone else on CEMB quoted Jesus words from Matthew 10.34:36 which are worth quoting because they can at first sight seem to indicate advocating violence:

    "Do not think I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.  For I have come to set man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's foes will be those of his own household.   He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.   He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it".

    These words do not advocate violence between family members, but they certainly indicate sharp doctrinal division and that his disciples had to place their love of him above any and all family connections.  The 'sword' is rhetorical.   The words Jesus was speaking to orthodox Judaism of his day were revolutionary and challenging in the extreme.   But at no point did he attempt to use force to defeat his doctrinal opponents.   In fact the last piece of evidence I humbly submit is his arrest prior to crucifixion.  His apostle Peter takes a sword from one of the temple guards sent to arrest Jesus and cuts off his ear.  Jesue orders Peter to desist and submits to his own arrest and eventual crucifixion.

    The gospel of John is a spiritual vision foretelling a violent future for mankind but is not in any was a call to arms to carry the gospel message forward to overcome its opponents.  

    So ... please give me the evidence of NT violent admonition.  I am all ears and eyes.

    *That's not to say people can't bring their own culture to our countries, but when their values clash with ours, I believe we should take action to ensure they do not pose a threat to our own civilisation. Especially when they come from countries with no history of human rights.

    is not there in his post ., or are you  misplacing /misusing the Quote button?  And unifier  this is for you

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Is Islamic Reform Possible
     Reply #31 - July 07, 2017, 05:11 PM

    as long as majority of Islamic world... do not accept the fundamental fact (that the) Quran is NOT word of Allah/God, any (reform) of Islam... will fail.,


    This^
  • Is Islamic Reform Possible
     Reply #32 - July 07, 2017, 05:20 PM

    Blah, blah, Christianity is peace & Love blah blah...


    Oh you mean the religion that brought us the most obnoxious and sadistic concept humans have ever invented - an eternal Hell.

    Btw I appreciate the Christian God has had a personality change from ordering babies of unbelievers to be slaughtered by dashing their heads against rocks and I hope he continues with the medication. But the fact that you think that in its "context" such a thing was once ok is enough for me to reject the God of "peacful" Christianity.
  • Is Islamic Reform Possible
     Reply #33 - July 07, 2017, 06:10 PM

    Oh the NT. That bastion of perfection. Not.
    Revelation 2:22. Where babies should be slaughtered simply because their church going mother was having an affair with other members of the congregation.
    Good thing we don't do that anymore. Since apparently we should, per that Holy Message.

    And I have been in at least a dozen churches, and in every pew I sat in, there was an OT in front of me. You can't have Christianity without the OT. It was not thrown out. It is the basis of nearly every concept in Christianity save those having to do with Jesus himself. Even there we find exceptions.
    So unless you are going to throw out the Creation Myth and Abraham and every other thing in it you have to accept the OT, like it or not.
    Best get out there and stab some Midianites (OT) with your required NT advised sword.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Is Islamic Reform Possible
     Reply #34 - July 07, 2017, 06:40 PM

    It's all batman. The character stays the same but the conception evolves with time and imagination. If anything, Christianity did a great job of appropriating YHWH and mellowing him out a bit, as often happens with guys once they become dads. It's a shame Islam denied the paternity tests and sent YHWH back to his old ways.

    The Rastas are doing a pretty good job though, retaining the names, re-envisioning the imagery, and adding in what is uniquely their own vibe.

    "“Life and Jah are one in the same. Jah is the gift of existence. I am in some way eternal, I will never be duplicated. The singularity of every man and woman is Jah's gift. What we struggle to make of it is our sole gift to Jah. The process of what that struggle becomes, in time, the Truth.”

    - Bob Marley


    اللّهُ لاَ إِلَـهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ الْحَيُّ الْقَيُّومُ


      

  • Is Islamic Reform Possible
     Reply #35 - July 07, 2017, 07:56 PM

    Oh you mean the religion that brought us the most obnoxious and sadistic concept humans have ever invented - an eternal Hell.

    Btw I appreciate the Christian God has/had   personality disorders change such as ordering babies of unbelievers to be slaughtered by dashing their heads against rocks and I hope he continues with the medication. But the fact that you think that in its "context" such a thing was once ok is enough for me to reject the God of "peaceful" Christianity.

     that sounds better to me..,  

    All stupid  gods  of stupid books of every faith have some personality disorders .. ...


    Quote
    According to DSM-5, a personality disorder can be diagnosed if there are significant impairments in self and interpersonal functioning together with one or more pathological personality traits. In addition, these features must be (1) relatively stable across time and consistent across situations, (2) not better understood as normative for the individual’s developmental stage or socio-cultural environment, and (3) not solely due to the direct effects of a substance or general medical condition.  

    DSM-5 lists ten personality disorders, and allocates each to one of three groups or ‘clusters’: A, B, or C  

    Cluster A (Odd, bizarre, eccentric)

    Paranoid PD, Schizoid PD, Schizotypal PD

    Cluster B (Dramatic, erratic)

    Antisocial PD, Borderline PD, Histrionic PD, Narcissistic PD

    Cluster C (Anxious, fearful)

    Avoidant PD, Dependent PD, Obsessive-compulsive PD

    Before going on to characterize these ten personality disorders, it should be emphasized that they are more the product of historical observation than of scientific study, and thus that they are rather vague and imprecise constructs. As a result, they rarely present in their classic ‘textbook’ form, but instead tend to blur into one another. Their division into three clusters in DSM-5 is intended to reflect this tendency, with any given personality disorder most likely to blur with other personality disorders within its cluster. For instance, in cluster A, paranoid personality is most likely to blur with schizoid personality disorder and schizotypal personality disorder.

    The majority of people with a personality disorder never come into contact with mental health services, and those who do usually do so in the context of another mental disorder or at a time of crisis, commonly after self-harming or breaking the law. Nevertheless, personality disorders are important to health professionals because they predispose to mental disorder, and affect the presentation and management of existing mental disorder. They also result in considerable distress and impairment, and so may need to be treated ‘in their own right’. Whether this ought to be the remit of the health professions is a matter of debate and controversy, especially with regard to those personality disorders which predispose to criminal activity, and which are often treated with the primary purpose of preventing crime.

    1. Paranoid personality disorder

    Cluster A comprises paranoid, schizoid, and schizotypal personality disorders. Paranoid personality disorder is characterized by a pervasive distrust of others, including even friends, family, and partner. As a result, the person is guarded and suspicious, and constantly on the lookout for clues or suggestions to validate his fears. He also has a strong sense of personal rights: he is overly sensitive to setbacks and rebuffs, easily feels shame and humiliation, and persistently bears grudges. Unsurprisingly, he tends to withdraw from others and to struggle with building close relationships. The principal ego defence in paranoid PD is projection, which involves attributing one’s unacceptable thoughts and feelings to other people. A large long-term twin study found that paranoid PD is modestly heritable, and that it shares a portion of its genetic and environmental risk factors with schizoid PD and schizotypal PD.

    2. Schizoid personality disorder

    The term ‘schizoid’ designates a natural tendency to direct attention toward one’s inner life and away from the external world. A person with schizoid PD is detached and aloof and prone to introspection and fantasy. He has no desire for social or sexual relationships, is indifferent to others and to social norms and conventions, and lacks emotional response. A competing theory about people with schizoid PD is that they are in fact highly sensitive with a rich inner life: they experience a deep longing for intimacy but find initiating and maintaining close relationships too difficult or distressing, and so retreat into their inner world. People with schizoid PD rarely present to medical attention because, despite their reluctance to form close relationships, they are generally well functioning, and quite untroubled by their apparent oddness.

    3. Schizotypal disorder

    Schizotypal PD is characterized by oddities of appearance, behaviour, and speech, unusual perceptual experiences, and anomalies of thinking similar to those seen in schizophrenia. These latter can include odd beliefs, magical thinking (for instance, thinking that speaking of the devil can make him appear), suspiciousness, and obsessive ruminations. People with schizotypal PD often fear social interaction and think of others as harmful. This may lead them to develop so-called ideas of reference, that is, beliefs or intuitions that events and happenings are somehow related to them. So whereas people with schizotypal PD and people with schizoid PD both avoid social interaction, with the former it is because they fear others, whereas with the latter it is because they have no desire to interact with others or find interacting with others too difficult. People with schizotypal PD have a higher than average probability of developing schizophrenia, and the condition used to be called ‘latent schizophrenia’.

    4. Antisocial personality disorder

    Cluster B comprises antisocial, borderline, histrionic, and narcissistic personality disorders. Until psychiatrist Kurt Schneider (1887-1967) broadened the concept of personality disorder to include those who ‘suffer from their abnormality’, personality disorder was more or less synonymous with antisocial personality disorder. Antisocial PD is much more common in men than in women, and is characterized by a callous unconcern for the feelings of others. The person disregards social rules and obligations, is irritable and aggressive, acts impulsively, lacks guilt, and fails to learn from experience. In many cases, he has no difficulty finding relationships—and can even appear superficially charming (the so-called ‘charming psychopath’)—but these relationships are usually fiery, turbulent, and short-lived. As antisocial PD is the mental disorder most closely correlated with crime, he is likely to have a criminal record or a history of being in and out of prison.

    5. Borderline personality disorder

    In borderline PD (or emotionally unstable PD), the person essentially lacks a sense of self, and, as a result, experiences feelings of emptiness and fears of abandonment. There is a pattern of intense but unstable relationships, emotional instability, outbursts of anger and violence (especially in response to criticism), and impulsive behaviour. Suicidal threats and acts of self-harm are common, for which reason many people with borderline PD frequently come to medical attention. Borderline PD was so called because it was thought to lie on the ‘borderline’ between neurotic (anxiety) disorders and psychotic disorders such as schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. It has been suggested that borderline personality disorder often results from childhood sexual abuse, and that it is more common in women in part because women are more likely to suffer sexual abuse. However, feminists have argued that borderline PD is more common in women because women presenting with angry and promiscuous behaviour tend to be labelled with it, whereas men presenting with similar behaviour tend instead to be labelled with antisocial PD.

    6. Histrionic personality disorder

    People with histrionic PD lack a sense of self-worth, and depend for their wellbeing on attracting the attention and approval of others. They often seem to be dramatizing or ‘playing a part’ in a bid to be heard and seen. Indeed, ‘histrionic’ derives from the Latin histrionicus, ‘pertaining to the actor’. People with histrionic PD may take great care of their appearance and behave in a manner that is overly charming or inappropriately seductive. As they crave excitement and act on impulse or suggestion, they can place themselves at risk of accident or exploitation. Their dealings with others often seem insincere or superficial, which, in the longer term, can adversely impact on their social and romantic relationships. This is especially distressing to them, as they are sensitive to criticism and rejection, and react badly to loss or failure. A vicious circle may take hold in which the more rejected they feel, the more histrionic they become; and the more histrionic they become, the more rejected they feel. It can be argued that a vicious circle of some kind is at the heart of every personality disorder, and, indeed, every mental disorder.

    7. Narcissistic personality disorder

    In narcissistic PD, the person has an extreme feeling of self-importance, a sense of entitlement, and a need to be admired. He is envious of others and expects them to be the same of him. He lacks empathy and readily lies and exploits others to achieve his aims. To others, he may seem self-absorbed, controlling, intolerant, selfish, or insensitive. If he feels obstructed or ridiculed, he can fly into a fit of destructive anger and revenge. Such a reaction is sometimes called ‘narcissistic rage’, and can have disastrous consequences for all those involved.

    8. Avoidant personality disorder

    Cluster C comprises avoidant, dependent, and anankastic personality disorders. People with avoidant PD believe that they are socially inept, unappealing, or inferior, and constantly fear being embarrassed, criticized, or rejected. They avoid meeting others unless they are certain of being liked, and are restrained even in their intimate relationships. Avoidant PD is strongly associated with anxiety disorders, and may also be associated with actual or felt rejection by parents or peers in childhood. Research suggests that people with avoidant PD excessively monitor internal reactions, both their own and those of others, which prevents them from engaging naturally or fluently in social situations. A vicious circle takes hold in which the more they monitor their internal reactions, the more inept they feel; and the more inept they feel, the more they monitor their internal reactions.

    9. Dependent personality disorder

    Dependent PD is characterized by a lack of self-confidence and an excessive need to be looked after. The person needs a lot of help in making everyday decisions and surrenders important life decisions to the care of others. He greatly fears abandonment and may go through considerable lengths to secure and maintain relationships. A person with dependent PD sees himself as inadequate and helpless, and so surrenders personal responsibility and submits himself to one or more protective others. He imagines that he is at one with these protective other(s), whom he idealizes as competent and powerful, and towards whom he behaves in a manner that is ingratiating and self-effacing. People with dependent PD often end up with people with a cluster B personality disorder, who feed on the unconditional high regard in which they are held. Overall, people with dependent PD maintain a naïve and child-like perspective, and have limited insight into themselves and others. This entrenches their dependency, and leaves them vulnerable to abuse and exploitation.

    10. Anankastic personality disorder

    Anankastic PD is characterized by excessive preoccupation with details, rules, lists, order, organization, or schedules; perfectionism so extreme that it prevents a task from being completed; and devotion to work and productivity at the expense of leisure and relationships. A person with anankastic PD is typically doubting and cautious, rigid and controlling, humorless, and miserly. His underlying anxiety arises from a perceived lack of control over a world that eludes his understanding; and the more he tries to exert control, the more out of control he feels. In consequence, he has little tolerance for complexity or nuance, and tends to simplify the world by seeing things as either all good or all bad. His relationships with colleagues, friends, and family are often strained by the unreasonable and inflexible demands that he makes upon them.

    Closing remarks

    While personality disorders may differ from mental disorders like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, they do, by definition, lead to significant impairment. They are estimated to affect about 10 per cent of people, although this figure ultimately depends on where clinicians draw the line between a ‘normal’ personality and one that leads to significant impairment. Characterizing the ten personality disorders is difficult, but diagnosing them reliably is even more so. For instance, how far from the norm must personality traits deviate before they can be counted as disordered? How significant is ‘significant impairment’? And how is ‘impairment’ to be defined?

    Whatever the answers to these questions, they are bound to include a large part of subjectivity. Personal dislike, prejudice, or a clash of values can all play a part in arriving at a diagnosis of personality disorder, and it has been argued that the diagnosis amounts to little more than a convenient label for undesirables and social deviants.


    all that is from Neel Burton 's  book



    Faith heads who would like to find more about their god''s  personality disorder must read that book  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Is Islamic Reform Possible
     Reply #36 - July 07, 2017, 09:03 PM

    Oh you mean the religion that brought us the most obnoxious and sadistic concept humans have ever invented - an eternal Hell.

    Btw I appreciate the Christian God has had a personality change from ordering babies of unbelievers to be slaughtered by dashing their heads against rocks and I hope he continues with the medication. But the fact that you think that in its "context" such a thing was once ok is enough for me to reject the God of "peacful" Christianity.


    Hassan - which of these statements do you consider truer than the other:   1. Islam and Christianity (and all other religions) represent different ways of understanding and relating to the same God.   Or  2.  Each religion has defined a different God with sharply different characteristics and different relationship with mankind.

    I'll respond to your accusations against the Christian God after receiving your answer.

  • Is Islamic Reform Possible
     Reply #37 - July 07, 2017, 09:14 PM

    Hassan - which of these statements do you consider truer than the other:   1. Islam and Christianity (and all other religions) represent different ways of understanding and relating to the same God.   Or  2.  Each religion has defined a different God with sharply different characteristics and different relationship with mankind.

    Those  who read Quran will say the attributes of  god w,r,t.  their respective scriptures similar  and essentially same .    And  all that is nothing to do with god and nothing to do with  Christianity and nothing to do with Islam Unifier.  It is all to do with who is reading/preaching  quran and who is reading/preaching  bible and how they are interpreting those words dear Unifier

    Quote
    I'll respond to your accusations against the Christian God after receiving your answer.

    what is the big deal about responding?  anyone and everyone can respond to any post but in your  neck of the world

    Who is God? What is God?  and why do you think that there are differences between Christian god and Muslim god??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Is Islamic Reform Possible
     Reply #38 - July 07, 2017, 09:17 PM

    Oh the NT. That bastion of perfection. Not.
    Revelation 2:22. Where babies should be slaughtered simply because their church going mother was having an affair with other members of the congregation.
    Good thing we don't do that anymore. Since apparently we should, per that Holy Message.

    And I have been in at least a dozen churches, and in every pew I sat in, there was an OT in front of me. You can't have Christianity without the OT. It was not thrown out. It is the basis of nearly every concept in Christianity save those having to do with Jesus himself. Even there we find exceptions.
    So unless you are going to throw out the Creation Myth and Abraham and every other thing in it you have to accept the OT, like it or not.
    Best get out there and stab some Midianites (OT) with your required NT advised sword.


    Three - I have never argued that the OT should be excluded from the Bible.  What I have and continue to argue is that the OT is like act 1 in a drama where the circumstances of God and man (specifically the chosen people) were particular to a time and place.   The NT represents to those who selected and defined the canon of books collectively known as the bible a new chapter in the relationship between God and mankind.  Specifically the gospels are the core of the NT and the evolution to a kinder, gentler God.  Revelation is regarded by many Christian commentators as its own peculiar animal.  The author is unknown the style is Jewish visionary and apocalyptic.  It was written at a time of great persecution of Christians by the Romans, and it gives some insight into the situation of the 7 major Christian communities then in existence.   The 'Jezebel' referred to was not a simple adulteress but a sexual prophetess (a quite common situation in antiquity) leading the entire flock in the wrong direction.  The words describing fit punishment for Jezebel are described as the 'channelled' words of Christ - but again this is one author's 'spiritual revelation' and needs to be read as such.

    But .. to your and Hassan's general point I must honestly acknowledge that the elimination of idolatry in Asia Minor, N Africa and Mesopotamia by the nascent Christian communities of the first few centuries A.D. were often extremely violent and bloody events.

  • Is Islamic Reform Possible
     Reply #39 - July 07, 2017, 09:20 PM

    Yeezevee - the link you provided is rather long and complex.  It will take me some time to process and respond.   But I will.

  • Is Islamic Reform Possible
     Reply #40 - July 07, 2017, 09:51 PM

    It's all batman. The character stays the same but the conception evolves with time and imagination. If anything, Christianity did a great job of appropriating YHWH and mellowing him out a bit, as often happens with guys once they become dads. It's a shame Islam denied the paternity tests and sent YHWH back to his old ways.

    The Rastas are doing a pretty good job though, retaining the names, re-envisioning the imagery, and adding in what is uniquely their own vibe.

    "“Life and Jah are one in the same. Jah is the gift of existence. I am in some way eternal, I will never be duplicated. The singularity of every man and woman is Jah's gift. What we struggle to make of it is our sole gift to Jah. The process of what that struggle becomes, in time, the Truth.”

    - Bob Marley


    اللّهُ لاَ إِلَـهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ الْحَيُّ الْقَيُّومُ


     Afro
  • Is Islamic Reform Possible
     Reply #41 - July 07, 2017, 09:54 PM

    Hassan - which of these statements do you consider truer than the other:   1. Islam and Christianity (and all other religions) represent different ways of understanding and relating to the same God.   Or  2.  Each religion has defined a different God with sharply different characteristics and different relationship with mankind.

    I'll respond to your accusations against the Christian God after receiving your answer.


    I'm afraid you have confused me with someone who gives a rat's arse if you respond.
  • Is Islamic Reform Possible
     Reply #42 - July 07, 2017, 11:27 PM

    It's all batman. The character stays the same but the conception evolves with time and imagination. If anything, Christianity did a great job of appropriating YHWH and mellowing him out a bit, as often happens with guys once they become dads. It's a shame Islam denied the paternity tests and sent YHWH back to his old ways.

    The Rastas are doing a pretty good job though, retaining the names, re-envisioning the imagery, and adding in what is uniquely their own vibe.

    "“Life and Jah are one in the same. Jah is the gift of existence. I am in some way eternal, I will never be duplicated. The singularity of every man and woman is Jah's gift. What we struggle to make of it is our sole gift to Jah. The process of what that struggle becomes, in time, the Truth.”

    - Bob Marley


    اللّهُ لاَ إِلَـهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ الْحَيُّ الْقَيُّومُ


      



     


     Christianity never reformed to become more liberal. The books of liberal christian theology were always a fringe thing.

    People just stopped caring about religion as much and became more apathetic/secular.

    There was an article a while back with statistics saying that liberal christian churches are all being shut down due to declining attendance while conservative and traditional values churches are thriving.

    Same thing needs to happen with islam. People need to stop caring about religion.


    The whole liberal religion experiment has been tested out with all the major religions and has never succeeded.
    Secularization is the only practical solution.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Is Islamic Reform Possible
     Reply #43 - July 08, 2017, 02:49 AM

    While I understand the sentiment behind what you are saying and why you are saying it, and while I would love to agree with you, I’m compelled to believe that history has proven the situation to be much more nuanced than you assert.

    First off, I think it is a mistake to view Christianity as some sort of historical monolith, being either “liberal” or “conservative.” The birth of Christianity occurred during the waning centuries of the Roman Empire, and much of its theology evolved as a result of the revolution sought by the people against Roman oppression. Much of the imagery and theology of the New Testament, supporting the “morality of the weak,” and the virtues of the poor and oppressed, bear witness to this. There were, as is quite clear, influences from Greek, Egyptian, and existing Eastern Mediterranean mythologies, pinned onto an existing idea of an expected Jewish messiah, who must have been envisioned quite differently by his OT originators. These ideas evolved for nearly three centuries, spreading throughout the Near East, Egypt, Europe, and Ethiopia before being coopted and codified by the Romans.

    It was by no means an immediate thing and that process of evolution is not over.

    If you fast-forward, past the inquisition and the protestant reformation, to the birth of America - the world’s only country actually founded upon secularism - you will find that even our core documents make appeals to “nature’s God” and a “creator” as ideas in the absence of anything else upon which to assert those things that we have concluded to be our rights.

    Even today, one still finds this bizarre amalgamation of a religion in which ideas of Jesus, the Founding Fathers, and guns somehow find themselves intertwined with one another, alongside another strain of ideas that supports gay rights, peace and equality.

    This process is also true for Islam in its own way. Much of the earlier passages of the Qur’an appear to present a sort of anti-elitist, anti-materialist, (almost anti-capitalist) message that would have appealed to the poor, pinning the message of social reform onto existing Judeo-Christian mythology. Surat al Humaza, Surat at Takathur, and parts of Surat al Fajr come to mind here, though there are many examples.

    And whether you accept the premise of a single author named Muhammad or are more inclined to believe in a layered text with multiple authors, the idea and message also evolve considerably until they are coopted and codified by a ruling class. Fluidity still exists for a number of centuries, even under these circumstances, until a class of sunni jurists close the doors of dissent, giving us what we would now recognize as sunni Islam.

    Even that does not stop the process of evolution, as is demonstrated by Yeez’s chart above, as well as by the many populist, mahdist, messianic, and turuq-as-sufiyyah movements that have sprung up across the Muslim world.

    The Baye Fall of the Mouride in Senegal, who appeared partly in response to French colonialism and who accept music and forgo the obligation of fasting in Ramadhan in exchange for public service, are an example of this. The Wahabbi sect in Arabia, that was certainly aided and abetted by zeal in opposition to the Ottoman Empire is another example.

    I understand this has all been a bit convoluted, but I’ll try to tie it all together now. It is relevant because it shows how religions actually work, providing a framework and a narrative upon which people can hang their ideals, values, and aspirations by appealing to a unifying myth that doesn’t necessarily even have to be true.

    The human being, Homo sapiens, the wise man, is unique in our ability to conceptualize and hold abstract ideas and to unite ourselves accordingly. The evolution of mythology is a byproduct of this important ability. As such, I’m not inclined to believe the religious meme will disappear any time soon.



    I think that belief in something is far too human of a phenomenon to expect to eradicate it fully.  Even for those of us who are secular, the influence of religion is so strong that even ex-Muslims spend our time discussing it on forums such as this, writing books inspired by our views on Islam, creating memes to share on facebook, and gathering for meet-ups on days that just happen to coincide with Eid al Fitr.

    It is, in my opinion, another example of the evolution of the religious meme as opposed to its eradication.

    And even if our beliefs are reconciled with modern science and what we know to be true about the world, I think human beings as a whole will still require and rely upon some sort of spiritual element in order to make themselves fully fulfilled. I believe the only solution is to allow individuals the flexibility to adapt their “beliefs” and interpret their “religions” as best suits them – a democratization of the process, if you will.

    It’s not a matter of reforming religion; it is breaking the fossilized mold of religion and reintroducing fluidity. Eventually, my hope is that the works of people like Hassan will serve as a precedent for future generations who will undoubtedly find themselves unsatisfied with what traditional sunni Islam has to offer.
  • Is Islamic Reform Possible
     Reply #44 - July 08, 2017, 04:20 AM

    Three - I have never argued that the OT should be excluded from the Bible.  What I have and continue to argue is that the OT is like act 1 in a drama where the circumstances of God and man (specifically the chosen people) were particular to a time and place.   The NT represents to those who selected and defined the canon of books collectively known as the bible a new chapter in the relationship between God and mankind.  Specifically the gospels are the core of the NT and the evolution to a kinder, gentler God.  Revelation is regarded by many Christian commentators as its own peculiar animal.  The author is unknown the style is Jewish visionary and apocalyptic.  It was written at a time of great persecution of Christians by the Romans, and it gives some insight into the situation of the 7 major Christian communities then in existence.   The 'Jezebel' referred to was not a simple adulteress but a sexual prophetess (a quite common situation in antiquity) leading the entire flock in the wrong direction.  The words describing fit punishment for Jezebel are described as the 'channelled' words of Christ - but again this is one author's 'spiritual revelation' and needs to be read as such.

    But .. to your and Hassan's general point I must honestly acknowledge that the elimination of idolatry in Asia Minor, N Africa and Mesopotamia by the nascent Christian communities of the first few centuries A.D. were often extremely violent and bloody events.


    Yes, but by asking for NT examples of violence you are excluding the OT. You excluded it, and I pointed out that it was not possible.
    Also "sexual prophetess" is double speak for "woman getting some influence". That men are up in arms over a woman asking for more sexual freedom or expression is nothing new, and I reject any argument that a woman should not have influence or be able to interpret her religion in her own way.

    So I did not mention her punishment, no. I mentioned what was to be done to her CHILDREN. So you asked for violence in the NT and you got it. Explanation revelation blah blah read as such. I heard all that shit about every violent verse in the Quran and it made as much sense. Violence advocated is violence advocated, pure and simple, and this is for the execution of children. No turning the other cheek, here. Let's also point out that the woman did nothing criminal and did not deserve any punishment at all, much less one carried out by a religious authority. Surely a just religion would recognize that, and simply declare the congregation outside the faith so they can carry on in their preferred manner.

    Now if you want to get all technical about allegorical meanings and bullshit like that over Revelation then you can put the NT and the OT back in the hands of the Catholic hierarchy for interpretation, lest the common man learn to read. Either it is for the people or it is not. If you argue that it should not be literal then please explain that to the Quiverfull and all those preppers out there. Should be read as.. seriously. Like that is not what people say when you Quransplain them.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Is Islamic Reform Possible
     Reply #45 - July 08, 2017, 09:10 PM

    I'm afraid you have confused me with someone who gives a rat's arse if you respond.


    Why the snide tone Hassan?   Not possible to have a respectful debate on this topic?

  • Is Islamic Reform Possible
     Reply #46 - July 08, 2017, 09:24 PM

    Unifier's signature is annoying as fuck.

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Is Islamic Reform Possible
     Reply #47 - July 09, 2017, 12:06 AM

    That's a good omen. Gives me some hope!

    جاه يبارك فيك يا شيخ

    I'm happy to hear it was well received.

    Most of the audience were white non-Muslims and the rest were ex-Muslims or extremely out there liberal muslims. There most likely wasn't a single mainstream Muslim there. I'll echo what others have said that trying to reframe the Qur'an as imperfect and Muhammed as fallible is something that even the most liberal Muslim can accept as the basis of reform. When you have it drummed into your head that the Qur'an and Muhammed are perfect your whole life, it's almost impossible to let go.

    It was an interesting talk and I enjoyed it very much but Hassans idea for reform is a step too far for it to gain any traction in the Muslim world. Any successful reform movement can't stray too far from traditional Islam otherwise even those Liberal Muslims will run away from it from fear of being accused of apostasy.

    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Is Islamic Reform Possible
     Reply #48 - July 09, 2017, 11:16 AM

    It was great to see you btw  Afro

    I take your point but I'll stick to my insistence that the Qur’an is fallible and human simply because to say otherwise would be dishonest of me.

    Whether it finds traction or not is less important to me than being true to myself.
  • Is Islamic Reform Possible
     Reply #49 - July 09, 2017, 04:50 PM


    .....................but Hassans idea for reform is a step too far for it to gain any traction in the Muslim world. Any successful reform movement can't stray too far from traditional Islam otherwise even those Liberal Muslims will run away from it from fear of being accused of apostasy. .............

     

    I completely disagree in agreeing with your above words dear  GodIsNotGreat..   I will explain why  but let me watch some tubes  first..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZoWwbcu1Cg

    it is in fact related to  "Reforms  in Islam." ...   Tarek Fatah  says  he is  a Muslim and he openly
      criticizing Islam for a long time ...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Is Islamic Reform Possible
     Reply #50 - July 09, 2017, 05:46 PM

    Most of the audience were white non-Muslims and the rest were ex-Muslims or extremely out there liberal muslims. There most likely wasn't a single mainstream Muslim there. I'll echo what others have said that trying to reframe the Qur'an as imperfect and Muhammed as fallible is something that even the most liberal Muslim can accept as the basis of reform. When you have it drummed into your head that the Qur'an and Muhammed are perfect your whole life, it's almost impossible to let go.

    It was an interesting talk and I enjoyed it very much but Hassans idea for reform is a step too far for it to gain any traction in the Muslim world. Any successful reform movement can't stray too far from traditional Islam otherwise even those Liberal Muslims will run away from it from fear of being accused of apostasy.


    But what's the harm in trying, innit?

    So much respect for Hassan for putting his beliefs out there and trying to make a change.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »