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Theme Changer

 Topic: Need help with a Quranic verse.

 (Read 2898 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Need help with a Quranic verse.
     OP - August 26, 2017, 09:33 AM

    So I was debating a Muslim dude and he came up with this verse - mercy to all mankind (21:207)

    He then said the following - how can mohamed engage in offensive warfare when a verse like this is contained in the quran.

    Can someone refute this for me please?
  • Need help with a Quranic verse.
     Reply #1 - August 26, 2017, 10:18 AM

    Because, history? Whether Muhammad really existed or not; if all the stories are true or completely made up; offensive warfare was in fact part of early Islamic/Muslim history. I don't really see what that verse has anything to do with historical facts?

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Need help with a Quranic verse.
     Reply #2 - August 26, 2017, 01:53 PM

    Because, history? Whether Muhammad really existed or not; if all the stories are true or completely made up; offensive warfare was in fact part of early Islamic/Muslim history. I don't really see what that verse has anything to do with historical facts?


    Let's assume mohamed existed. The historical information comes from the seera and hadiths. When I pick them to refute this theyd say it's all fabricated. So I want verses from the quran that will Refute this verse..or even a logical argument.
  • Need help with a Quranic verse.
     Reply #3 - August 26, 2017, 04:34 PM

    So I was debating a Muslim dude and he came up with this verse - mercy to all mankind (21:207)

    .................
    Can someone refute this for me please?

    21 chapter of Quran does not have verse 207  dear Thedarkknight89 .,   that chapter has only  112 verses

    I guess that is from chapter 2

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Need help with a Quranic verse.
     Reply #4 - August 26, 2017, 05:11 PM

    21 chapter of Quran does not have verse 207  dear Thedarkknight89 .,   that chapter has only  112 verses

    I guess that is from chapter 2

    open

    Oh my bad. It's 21:107
  • Need help with a Quranic verse.
     Reply #5 - August 26, 2017, 10:28 PM

    open

    Oh my bad. It's 21:107

    that is all right ., even I ..who read Quran quite often missed it  and said  that statement may be in the 2nd chapter of Quran dear Thedarkknight89..

    anyways let me put that verse here before I scribble something on  that question "how can mohamed engage in offensive warfare when a verse like this is contained in the quran"?

       
    Quote
    Quote
    107     وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ إِلَّا رَحْمَةً لِّلْعَالَمِينَ
     

    Transliteration 107:    Wama arsalnaka illa rahmatan lilAAalameena


    Yusuf Ali 107:    We sent thee not, but as a Mercy for all creatures.

    Shakir 107:    And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds.

    Pickthal 107:    We sent thee not save as a mercy for the peoples.

    Mohsin Khan: 107:    And We have sent you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم): not but as a mercy for the 'Alamin (mankind, jinn and all that exists).

    Saheeh: 107:    And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], except as a mercy to the worlds.


    Also let me put this quote of    that famous man from russia "Fyodor Dostoyevsky"

    “Above all, don't lie to yourself. The man who lies to himself and listens to his own lie comes to a point that he cannot distinguish the truth within him, or around him, and so loses all respect for himself and for others. And having no respect he ceases to love.

    and on your response to  Cornflower's post

    Let's assume mohamed existed. The historical information comes from the seera and hadiths. When I pick them to refute this they  say it's all fabricated. So I want verses from the quran that will Refute this verse..or even a logical argument.


    so you want a verses from Quran that refutes  21.107

    Quote
    107:    And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds.


    Irrespective of political realities around the globe since the beginning of Islam .."that is after the death of alleged Muhammad his two son-inlaw and two father in-law caliphs.," and  Assuming Prophet of Islam was Real.,  Assuming Quran is word of "heeeeHa! woo Ha!" I can give plenty of verses from Quran  that are war mongering against those

    1). Who   .....fights/fought against those  who Question Islam  and what Quran says on those who do not believe in Islam

    2).  Who question.....  "Quran is some word of  "heeeeHa! woo Ha!" "

    3).  Who question.....     Prophet of Islam  and his actions in last 13 years of his life (AGAIN ASSUMING HE WAS REAL CHARACTER)

    Anyway  ask the guy/girl  to read Quran in its totality and if possible ask him/her to join CEMB forum ..

    here is the folder  https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.0  that I scribbled on first 50 chapters of Quran along with all verses from those chapters

     with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Need help with a Quranic verse.
     Reply #6 - August 27, 2017, 09:02 AM

    that is all right ., even I ..who read Quran quite often missed it  and said  that statement may be in the 2nd chapter of Quran dear Thedarkknight89..

    anyways let me put that verse here before I scribble something on  that question "how can mohamed engage in offensive warfare when a verse like this is contained in the quran"?

       
    Yusuf Ali 107:    We sent thee not, but as a Mercy for all creatures.

    Shakir 107:    And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds.

    Pickthal 107:    We sent thee not save as a mercy for the peoples.

    Mohsin Khan: 107:    And We have sent you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم): not but as a mercy for the 'Alamin (mankind, jinn and all that exists).

    Saheeh: 107:    And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], except as a mercy to the worlds.

    Also let me put this quote of    that famous man from russia "Fyodor Dostoyevsky"

    “Above all, don't lie to yourself. The man who lies to himself and listens to his own lie comes to a point that he cannot distinguish the truth within him, or around him, and so loses all respect for himself and for others. And having no respect he ceases to love.

    and on your response to  Cornflower's post

    so you want a verses from Quran that refutes  21.107

    Irrespective of political realities around the globe since the beginning of Islam .."that is after the death of alleged Muhammad his two son-inlaw and two father in-law caliphs.," and  Assuming Prophet of Islam was Real.,  Assuming Quran is word of "heeeeHa! woo Ha!" I can give plenty of verses from Quran  that are war mongering against those

    1). Who   .....fights/fought against those  who Question Islam  and what Quran says on those who do not believe in Islam

    2).  Who question.....  "Quran is some word of  "heeeeHa! woo Ha!" "

    3).  Who question.....     Prophet of Islam  and his actions in last 13 years of his life (AGAIN ASSUMING HE WAS REAL CHARACTER)

    Anyway  ask the guy/girl  to read Quran in its totality and if possible ask him/her to join CEMB forum ..

    here is the folder  https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.0  that I scribbled on first 50 chapters of Quran along with all verses from those chapters

     with best wishes
    yeezevee



    Thanks alot yeez
  • Need help with a Quranic verse.
     Reply #7 - August 27, 2017, 10:26 AM


    Thanks alot yeez

    Quote
     21.107 :    And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds.


    dear  Thedarkknight89., I would suggest to your Muslim friend  and the readers ., it is nonsense to read one verse   and make statements such as

     Quran has Violent sayings
    or Quran is a peaceful book
    or Quran has revealed Basic science
    or Quran has medications for diseases

    that is bullshit ., Quran is just a book of its time. ( THAT IS ALSO TRUE TO ALL FAITH BOOKS OF ALL FAITH HEADS  of every faith) .,  unfortunately of all faith books  Quran is worst case.,    it is neither revealed to one person nor it was written by one person ,  So it has full of repetitive statements  with whole lot of plagiarism from OT & NT + other religious rituals that were floating in and around Arabian desert  

      I would suggest to all of such fools who make such claims as Quran is peace mannual, Quran is  war manual, Quran is medicine book     etc.etc.. by picking one verse from some chapter.,  they should at least  read/quote  5 verses below and 5 verses above the verse of interest to discuss and debate .

    For e.g. for that verse  21.107  to  make sense or to make story out of it   one must read  these following  verses. Let me put whole chapter and highlight those  verses  that one  must read to make sense of  21.107



    Quote
    1.   Their reckoning has drawn near to men, and in heedlessness are they turning aside.   
    2.   There comes not to them a new reminder from their Lord but they hear it while they sport,   
    3.   Their hearts trifling; and those who are unjust counsel together in secret: He is nothing but a mortal like yourselves; what! will you then yield to enchantment while you see?   
    4.   He said: My Lord knows what is spoken in the heaven and the earth, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.   
    5.   Nay! say they: Medleys of dreams; nay! he has forged it; nay! he is a poet; so let him bring to us a sign as the former (prophets) were sent (with).   
    6.   There did not believe before them any town which We destroyed, will they then believe?   
    7.   And We did not send before you any but men to whom We sent revelation, so ask the followers of the reminder if you do not   
    8.   And We did not make them bodies not eating the food, and they were not to abide (forever).   
    9.   Then We made Our promise good to them, so We delivered them and those whom We pleased, and We destroyed the ex   
    10.   Certainly We have revealed to you a Book in which is your good remembrance; what! do you not then understand?   
    11.   And how many a town which was iniquitous did We demolish, and We raised up after it another people!   
    12.   So when they felt Our punishment, lo! they began to fly   
    13.   Do not fly (now) and come back to what you were made to lead easy lives in and to your dwellings, haply you will be questioned.   
    14.   They said: O woe to us! surely we were unjust.   
    15.   And this ceased not to be their cry till We made them cut   
    16.   And We did not create the heaven and the earth and what is between them for sport.   
    17.   Had We wished to make a diversion, We would have made it from before Ourselves: by no means would We do (it).   
    18.   Nay! We cast the truth against the falsehood, so that it breaks its head, and lo! it vanishes; and woe to you for what you describe;   
    19.   And whoever is in the heavens and the earth is His; and those who are with Him are not proud to serve Him, nor do they grow weary.   
    20.   They glorify (Him) by night and day; they are never languid.   
    21.   Or have they taken gods from the earth who raise (the dead).   
    22.   If there had been in them any gods except Allah, they would both have certainly been in a state of disorder; therefore glory be to Allah, the Lord of the dominion, above what they attribute (to Him).   
    23.   He cannot be questioned concerning what He does and they shall be questioned.   
    24.   Or, have they taken gods besides Him? Say: Bring your proof; this is the reminder of those with me and the reminder of those before me. Nay! most of them do not know the truth, so they turn aside.   
    25.   And We did not send before you any apostle but We revealed to him that there is no god but Me, therefore serve Me.   
    26.   And they say: The Beneficent God has taken to Himself a ! son. Glory be to Him. Nay! they are honored servants   
    27.   They do not precede Him in speech and (only) according to His commandment do they act.   
    28.   He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they do not intercede except for him whom He approves and for fear of Him they tremble.   
    29.   And whoever of them should say: Surely I am a god besides Him, such a one do We recompense with hell; thus do, We recompense the unjust.   
    30.   Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the earth were closed up, but We have opened them; and We have made of water everything living, will they not then believe?   
    31.   And We have made great mountains in the earth lest it might be convulsed with them, and We have made in it wide ways that they may follow a right direction.   
    32.   And We have made the heaven a guarded canopy and (yet) they turn aside from its signs.   
    33.   And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres.   
    34.   And We did not ordain abiding for any mortal before you. What! Then if you die, will they abide?   
    35.   Every soul must taste of death and We try you by evil and good by way of probation; and to Us you shall be brought back.   
    36.   And when those who disbelieve see you, they do not take you but for one to be scoffed at: Is this he who speaks of your gods? And they are deniers at the mention of the Beneficent God.   
    37.   Man is created of haste; now will I show to you My signs, therefore do not ask Me to hasten (them) on.   
    38.   And they say: When will this threat come to pass if you are truthful?   
    39.   Had those who disbelieve but known (of the time) when they shall not be able to ward off the fire from their faces nor from their backs, nor shall they be helped.   
    40.   Nay, it shall come on them all of a sudden and cause them to become confounded, so they shall not have the power to avert it, nor shall they be respited.   
    41.   And certainly apostles before you were scoffed at, then there befell those of them who scoffed that at which they had scoffed.   
    42.   Say: Who guards you by night and by day from the Beneficent God? Nay, they turn aside at the mention of their Lord.   
    43.   Or, have they gods who can defend them against Us? They shall not be able to assist themselves, nor shall they be defended from Us.   
    44.   Nay, We gave provision to these and their fathers until life was prolonged to them. Do they not then see that We are visiting the land, curtailing it of its sides? Shall they then prevail?   
    45.   Say: I warn you only by revelation; and the deaf do not hear the call whenever they are warned.   
    46.   And if a blast of the chastisement of your Lord were to touch them, they will certainly say: O woe to us! surely we were unjust.   
    47.   And We will set up a just balance on the day of resurrection, so no soul shall be dealt with unjustly in the least; and though there be the weight of a grain of mustard seed, (yet) will We bring it, and sufficient are We to take account.   
    48.   And certainly We gave to Musa and Haroun the Furqan and a light and a reminder for those who would guard (against evil).   
    49.   (For) those who fear their Lord in secret and they are fearful of the hour.   
    50.   And this is a blessed Reminder which We have revealed; will you then deny it?   
    51.   And certainly We gave to Ibrahim his rectitude before, and We knew him fully well.   
    52.   When he said to his father and his people: What are these images to whose worship you cleave?   
    53.   They said: We found our fathers worshipping them.   
    54.   He said: Certainly you have been, (both) you and your fathers, in manifest error.   
    55.   They said: Have you brought to us the truth, or are you one of the triflers?   
    56.   He said: Nay! your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, Who brought them into existence, and I am of those who bear witness to this:   
    57.   And, by Allah! I will certainly do something against your idols after you go away, turning back.   
    58.   So he broke them into pieces, except the chief of them, that haply they may return to it.   
    59.   They said: Who has done this to our gods? Most surely he is one of the unjust.   
    60.   They said: We heard a youth called Ibrahim speak of them.   
    61.   Said they: Then bring him before the eyes of the people, perhaps they may bear witness.   
    62.   They said: Have you done this to our gods, O Ibrahim?   
    63.   He said: Surely (some doer) has done it; the chief of them is this, therefore ask them, if they can speak.   
    64.   Then they turned to themselves and said: Surely you yourselves are the unjust;   
    65.   Then they were made to hang down their heads: Certainly you know that they do not speak.   
    66.   He said:.What! do you then serve besides Allah what brings you not any benefit at all, nor does it harm you?   
    67.   Fie on you and on what you serve besides Allah; what! do you not then understand?   
    68.   They said: Burn him and help your gods, if you are going to do (anything).   
    69.   We said: O fire! be a comfort and peace to Ibrahim;   
    70.   And they desired a war on him, but We made them the greatest losers.   
    71.   And We delivered him as well as Lut (removing them) to the land which We had blessed for all people.   
    72.   And We gave him Ishaq and Yaqoub, a son's son, and We made (them) all good.   
    73.   And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve;   
    74.   And (as for) Lut, We gave him wisdom and knowledge, and We delivered him from the town which wrought abominations; surely they were an evil people, transgressors;   
    75.   And We took him into Our mercy; surely he was of the good.   
    76.   And Nuh, when he cried aforetime, so We answered him, and delivered him and his followers from the great calamity.   
    77.   And We helped him against the people who rejected Our communications; surely they were an evil people, so We drowned them all.   
    78.   And Dawood and Sulaiman when they gave judgment concerning the field when the people's sheep pastured therein by night, and We were bearers of witness to their judgment.   
    79.   So We.made Sulaiman to understand it; and to each one We gave wisdom and knowledge; and We made the mountains, and the birds to celebrate Our praise with Dawood; and We were the doers.   
    80.   And We taught him the making of coats of mail for you, that they might protect you in your wars; will you then be grateful?   
    81.   And (We made subservient) to Sulaiman the wind blowing violent, pursuing its course by his command to the land which We had blessed, and We are knower of ail things.   
    82.   And of the rebellious people there were those who dived for him and did other work besides that, and We kept guard over them;   
    83.   And Ayub, when he cried to his Lord, (saying): Harm has afflicted me, and Thou art the most Merciful of the merciful.   
    84.   Therefore We responded to him and took off what harm he had, and We gave him his family and the like of them with them: a mercy from Us and a reminder to the worshippers.   
    85.   And Ismail and Idris and Zulkifl; all were of the patient ones;   
    86.   And We caused them to enter into Our mercy, surely they were of the good ones.   
    87.   And Yunus, when he went away in wrath, so he thought that We would not straiten him, so he called out among afflictions: There is no god but Thou, glory be to Thee; surely I am of those who make themselves to suffer loss.   
    88.   So We responded to him and delivered him from the grief and thus do We deliver the believers.   
    89.   And Zakariya, when he cried to his Lord: O my Lord leave me not alone; and Thou art the best of inheritors.   
    90.   So We responded to him and gave him Yahya and made his wife fit for him; surely they used to hasten, one with another In deeds of goodness and to call upon Us, hoping and fearing and they were humble before Us.   
    91.   And she who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our inspiration and made her and her son a sign for the nations.   


    Quote
    92.   Surely this Islam is your religion, one religion (only), and I am your Lord, therefore serve Me.   
    93.   And they broke their religion (into sects) between them: to Us shall all come back.   
    94.   Therefore whoever shall do of good deeds and he is a believer, there shall be no denying of his exertion, and surely We will write (It) down for him.   
    95.   And it is binding on a town which We destroy that they shall not return.   
    96.   Even when Gog and Magog are let loose and they shall break forth from every elevated place.   
    97.   And the true promise shall draw nigh, then lo! the eyes of those who disbelieved shall be fixedly open: O woe to us! surely we were m a state of heedlessness as to this; nay, we were unjust.   
    98.   Surely you and what you worship besides Allah are the firewood of hell; to it you shall come.   
    99.   Had these been gods, they would not have come to it and all shall abide therein.   
    100.   For them therein shall be groaning and therein they shall not hear.   
    101.   Surely (as for) those for whom the good has already gone forth from Us, they shall be kept far off from it;   
    102.   They will not hear its faintest sound, and they shall abide in that which their souls long for.   
    103.   The great fearful event shall not grieve them, and the angels shall meet them: This is your day which you were promised.   
    104.   On the day when We will roll up heaven like the rolling up of the scroll for writings, as We originated the first creation, (so) We shall reproduce it; a promise (binding on Us); surely We will bring it about.   
    105.   And certainly We wrote in the Book after the reminder that (as for) the land, My righteous servants shall inherit it.   
    106.   Most surely in this is a message to a people who serve   
     107.   And We have hot sent you but as a mercy to the worlds.
    108.   Say: It is only revealed to me that your God is one God; will you then submit?   
    109.   But if they turn back, say: I have given you warning m fairness and I do not know whether what you are threatened with is near or far:   
    110.   Surely He knows what is spoken openly and He knows what you hide:   
    111.   And I do not know if this may be a trial for you and a provision till a time.   
    112.   He said: O my Lord! judge Thou with truth; and our Lord is the Beneficent God, Whose help is sought against what you ascribe (to Him).



    So one must read verses from verse 92 to all the way to 112  that are in Quotes in italics to make some sense or some  story .,  And incidentally the story behind those verses is NOTHING TO DO with the peace   that is extracted by your Muslim friend from verse 107..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Need help with a Quranic verse.
     Reply #8 - August 27, 2017, 11:04 PM

    How does this verse negate offensive jihad?

    Yes Muslims believe Muhammad was sent as a mercy to the world. The mercy is the message he brought to the world. This has no bearing on how that message is to be taken to mankind.

    As for offensive Jihad - this is a matter of debate, with the more traditional/conservative scholars affirming it and the more liberal/progressive rejecting it.
  • Need help with a Quranic verse.
     Reply #9 - August 28, 2017, 01:23 AM

    Thanks hassan.. That was enlightening.
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