Quran 22:15 miracle?

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- JamalEssop
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Quran 22:15 miracle?
OP - June 27, 2023, 12:45 PM

Hello there

A Muslim miracle seeker told me the verses 22:15:
مَن كَانَ يَظُنُّ أَن لَّن يَنصُرَهُ ٱللَّهُ فِى ٱلدُّنْيَا وَٱلْـَٔاخِرَةِ فَلْيَمْدُدْ بِسَبَبٍ إِلَى ٱلسَّمَآءِ ثُمَّ لْيَقْطَعْ فَلْيَنظُرْ هَلْ يُذْهِبَنَّ كَيْدُهُۥ مَا يَغِيظُ ١٥

That the word لْيَقْطَعْ means to suffocate(according to him) so his claim is that as you ascend to the heaven, you suffocate.

Apparently he was an Arab speaker but I’m unable to verify him as I can’t speak it.

I looked through Lisan Al Arab which says for that root word قطع:
وقَطَعَ الرجلُ بحبل يَقْطَعُ قَطْعاً: اخْتَنَقَ به. وفي التنزيل:
فَلْيَمْدُدْ بسبب إِلى السماء ثم ليَقْطَعْ فلينظر؛ قالوا: لِيَقْطَعْ أَي
لِيَخْتَنِقْ لأَن المُخْتَنِقَ يَمُدّ السبب إِلى السقف ثم يَقْطَعُ نفسَه
من الأَرض حتى يختنق، قال الأَزهري: وهذا يحتاج إِلى شرح يزيد في إِيضاحه،
والمعنى، والله أَعلم، من كان يظن أَن لن ينصر الله محمداً حتى يظهره على
الدين كله فليمت غيظاً، وهو تفسير قوله فليمدد بسَبَبٍ إِلى السماء،
والسببُ الحبل يشدّه المختنق إِلى سَقْفِ بيته، وسماءُ كل شيء سقفه، ثم ليقطع
أَي ليمد الحبل مشدُوداً في عنقه مدّاً شديداً يُوَتِّرُه حتى ينقطع فيموت
مختنقاً؛ وقال الفراء: أَراد ليجعل في سماء بيته حبلاً ثم ليختنق به، فذلك
قوله ثم ليقطع اختناقاً. وفي قراءة عبد الله: ثم ليقطعه، يعني السبب وهو
الحبل، وقيل: معناه ليمد الحبل المشدود في عنقه حتى ينقطعَ نفَسُه
فيموتَ.وثوبٌ يَقْطَعُكَ ويُقْطِعُكَ ويُقَطِّعُ لك تَقْطِيعاً: يَصْلُح عليك
قميصاً ونحوَه. وقال الأَزهري: إِذا صلح أَن يُقْطَعَ قميصاً، قال
الأَصمعي: لا أَعرف هذا ثوب يَقْطَعُ ولا يُقَطِّعُ ولا يُقَطِّعُني ولا
يَقْطَعُني، هذا كله من كلام المولّدين؛ قال أَبو حاتم: وقد حكاه أَبو عبيدة عن
العرب.
Gpt4 translation : The man cut with a rope and choked himself with it. And in the revelation: "Then let him extend a rope to the sky, then let him cut, let him see"; they said: "let him cut," meaning let him choke because the choking person extends the cause to the ceiling then cuts himself off from the earth until he chokes. Al-Azhari said: This requires an explanation to clarify it, and the meaning, and Allah knows best, is whoever thought that Allah would not help Muhammad until he prevailed over all religions, let him die in rage, and this is an interpretation of his saying "Let him extend a rope to the sky", and the cause is the rope that the choking person tightens to the roof of his house, and the sky of everything is its roof, then let him cut i.e., let him extend the rope tightly around his neck until it breaks and he dies choking. Al-Farāʾ said: He meant let him put a rope in the sky of his house then choke with it, so that's his saying "then let him cut" choking. And in Abdullah's reading: "then let him cut it", meaning the cause which is the rope. And it was said: it means let him extend the tightened rope around his neck until his breath breaks and he dies…..

Is my analysis correct to suggest that this is talking about strangling with a rope and not suffocating?

I’m also checking Ibn Kathir which suggest this. Al Tabairi is a bit more difficult because it’s long to go through.

Can any Arab speaker help me understand what this verse means? I’m looking through translation and the only one I found that suggest this is the Sahih International Quran:

Whoever should think that Allāh will not support him [i.e., Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ)] in this world and the Hereafter - let him extend a rope to the ceiling, then cut off [his breath],1 and let him see: will his effort remove that which enrages [him]?
— Saheeh International
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
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Quran 22:15 miracle?
Reply #1 - June 29, 2023, 03:00 PM
Quote from: JamalEssop on June 27, 2023, 12:45 PM
Hello there

A Muslim miracle seeker told me the verses 22:15:

مَن كَانَ يَظُنُّ أَن لَّن يَنصُرَهُ ٱللَّهُ فِى ٱلدُّنْيَا وَٱلْـَٔاخِرَةِ فَلْيَمْدُدْ بِسَبَبٍ إِلَى ٱلسَّمَآءِ ثُمَّ لْيَقْطَعْ فَلْيَنظُرْ هَلْ يُذْهِبَنَّ كَيْدُهُۥ مَا يَغِيظُ ١٥
That the word لْيَقْطَعْ means to suffocate(according to him) so his claim is that as you ascend to the heaven, you suffocate.

Apparently he was an Arab speaker but I’m unable to verify him as I can’t speak it.

I looked through Lisan Al Arab which says for that root word قطع:
وقَطَعَ الرجلُ بحبل يَقْطَعُ قَطْعاً: اخْتَنَقَ به. وفي التنزيل:
فَلْيَمْدُدْ بسبب إِلى السماء ثم ليَقْطَعْ فلينظر؛ قالوا: لِيَقْطَعْ أَي
لِيَخْتَنِقْ لأَن المُخْتَنِقَ يَمُدّ السبب إِلى السقف ثم يَقْطَعُ نفسَه
من الأَرض حتى يختنق، قال الأَزهري: وهذا يحتاج إِلى شرح يزيد في إِيضاحه،
والمعنى، والله أَعلم، من كان يظن أَن لن ينصر الله محمداً حتى يظهره على
الدين كله فليمت غيظاً، وهو تفسير قوله فليمدد بسَبَبٍ إِلى السماء،
والسببُ الحبل يشدّه المختنق إِلى سَقْفِ بيته، وسماءُ كل شيء سقفه، ثم ليقطع
أَي ليمد الحبل مشدُوداً في عنقه مدّاً شديداً يُوَتِّرُه حتى ينقطع فيموت
مختنقاً؛ وقال الفراء: أَراد ليجعل في سماء بيته حبلاً ثم ليختنق به، فذلك
قوله ثم ليقطع اختناقاً. وفي قراءة عبد الله: ثم ليقطعه، يعني السبب وهو
الحبل، وقيل: معناه ليمد الحبل المشدود في عنقه حتى ينقطعَ نفَسُه
فيموتَ.وثوبٌ يَقْطَعُكَ ويُقْطِعُكَ ويُقَطِّعُ لك تَقْطِيعاً: يَصْلُح عليك
قميصاً ونحوَه. وقال الأَزهري: إِذا صلح أَن يُقْطَعَ قميصاً، قال
الأَصمعي: لا أَعرف هذا ثوب يَقْطَعُ ولا يُقَطِّعُ ولا يُقَطِّعُني ولا
يَقْطَعُني، هذا كله من كلام المولّدين؛ قال أَبو حاتم: وقد حكاه أَبو عبيدة عن
العرب.
Gpt4 translation : The man cut with a rope and choked himself with it. And in the revelation: "Then let him extend a rope to the sky, then let him cut, let him see"; they said: "let him cut," meaning let him choke because the choking person extends the cause to the ceiling then cuts himself off from the earth until he chokes. Al-Azhari said: This requires an explanation to clarify it, and the meaning, and Allah knows best, is whoever thought that Allah would not help Muhammad until he prevailed over all religions, let him die in rage, and this is an interpretation of his saying "Let him extend a rope to the sky", and the cause is the rope that the choking person tightens to the roof of his house, and the sky of everything is its roof, then let him cut i.e., let him extend the rope tightly around his neck until it breaks and he dies choking. Al-Farāʾ said: He meant let him put a rope in the sky of his house then choke with it, so that's his saying "then let him cut" choking. And in Abdullah's reading: "then let him cut it", meaning the cause which is the rope. And it was said: it means let him extend the tightened rope around his neck until his breath breaks and he dies…..

Is my analysis correct to suggest that this is talking about strangling with a rope and not suffocating?

I’m also checking Ibn Kathir which suggest this. Al Tabairi is a bit more difficult because it’s long to go through.
Can any Arab speaker help me understand what this verse means? I’m looking through translation and the only one I found that suggest this is the Sahih International Quran:

Quote
Surah Al-Hajj verse 15: Whoever should think that Allāh will not support him [i.e., Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ)] in this world and the Hereafter - let him extend a rope to the ceiling, then cut off [his breath],1 and let him see: will his effort remove that which enrages [him]?
— Saheeh International
Hello JamalEssop .. welcome to to the den and it appears it is your 1st post with no introduction., how did you get in touch with this forum?? .. was it just web search or some one sent a link of the forum to you??

well on your question whether that 15th verse Surah Al-Hajj is miracle or not., I THINK IS A DUMB QUESTION.,

For a believer " every word of Quran is word of Allah .. hence by default.. every word of Quran is miracle .., " and for non-believer or for those who follow other faiths/faith books .. THERE ARE NO MIRCALES IN QURAN

so that is how it goes., anyways as far as translation of Quran in to English is concerned there are plenty of them on online ... here are some translation of that verse..
Quote

Quote

١٥ مَنْ كَانَ يَظُنُّ أَنْ لَنْ يَنْصُرَهُ اللَّهُ فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالْآخِرَةِ فَلْيَمْدُدْ بِسَبَبٍ إِلَى السَّمَاءِ ثُمَّ لْيَقْطَعْ فَلْيَنْظُرْ هَلْ يُذْهِبَنَّ كَيْدُهُ مَا يَغِيظُ

Transliteration:      Man kana yathunnu an lan yansurahu Allahu fee alddunya waalakhirati falyamdud bisababin ila alssamai thumma liyaqtaAA falyanthur hal yuthhibanna kayduhu ma yagheethu

Quote
Yusuf Ali:   If any think that Allah will not help him (His Messenger) in this world and the Hereafter, let him stretch out a rope to the ceiling and cut (himself) off: then let him see whether his plan will remove that which enrages (him)!

Quote
Mohsin Khan:      Whoever thinks that Allah will not help him (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) in this world and in the Hereafter, let him stretch out a rope to the ceiling and let him strangle himself. Then let him see whether his plan will remove that whereat he rages!

Quote
Saheeh:      Whoever should think that Allah will not support [Prophet Muhammad] in this world and the Hereafter - let him extend a rope to the ceiling, then cut off [his breath], and let him see: will his effort remove that which enrages [him]?

Quote
Shakir:      Whoever thinks that Allah will not assist him in this life and the hereafter, let him stretch a rope to the ceiling, then let him cut (it) off, then let him see if his struggle will take away that at which he is enraged.

Quote
Pickthall:      Whoso is wont to think (through envy) that Allah will not give him (Muhammad) victory in the world and the Hereafter (and is enraged at the thought of his victory), let him stretch a rope up to the roof (of his dwelling), and let him hang himself. Then let him see whether his strategy dispelleth that whereat he rageth!.

and there are plenty of English translations of Quran so one need not worry about that or learning Arabic for reading & understanding Quran/a quran verse..

That verse simply saying if you don't believe in what Prophet of Islam said in Quran.. THEN SIMPLY GO AND HANG YOURSELF and find out what Allah will do to you in the after life..

that is all what that verse is saying., So in short .. there is no miracle in that verse., it is just a chiding to those who questioned the sayings in Quran during prophet's time .. Again there is no miracle in it.. and if you are interested in reading Quran please go to these folders

https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.0
https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=31771.120

with best wishes
yeezevee
Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- JamalEssop
- Member
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Quran 22:15 miracle?
Reply #2 - June 29, 2023, 05:45 PM

Hello there.

I was a member a long time ago. The forum was somewhat inactive. I use to watch the YouTube channel when I was 15-16 years old.

Recently I've been personally debating with Muslims. Sorry that it came from nowhere.

I left Islam after doubting the Bible conspiracy. It never made sense how a whole religion flipped upside down.

I remember speaking to a Christian friend about hell and started questioning whether Islam is the true religion or not.

What was funny was that I was learning from atheists why Christianity was false, so one day I thought, what if Islam is not perfect?

And poof.

That's my backstory
- JamalEssop
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Quran 22:15 miracle?
Reply #3 - June 29, 2023, 06:00 PM

Later on, I learnt more critical ideas about god’s existence.

If god is absolute, does that mean his lies are truthful and should we trust him?
Why does the universe need a conscious creator to exist? That just sounds more complicated than what it suppose to be.

However, I regret not studying Islam intensively, but I never had the Arabic skills(only read and recite but not speak) nor did I feel like I should study a text that has few errors even without studying the whole Quran.
- JamalEssop
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Quran 22:15 miracle?
Reply #4 - June 29, 2023, 06:11 PM

My identity is still hidden from my family.

To be honest, I would rather lie than leave them.

Also, Jamal is a pseudonym.
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