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 Topic: 10 paces behind husband?

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  • 10 paces behind husband?
     OP - September 11, 2008, 09:26 PM
    Hi, 1st post.

    I work in a Muslim area of Sheffield, and today was walking to the shops when I saw something strange. I saw a Muslim man walking ahead of me, and about 10 paces behind there was a woman in a niqab and a young girl. After a while I noticed that the women was walking directly in time with the man. He would stop, to scratch his arse whatever, and she would stop etc. As she eventually followed him into the door of a house the penny dropped that she must be deliberately pacing behind him in the Islamic custom.

    Is this really going on in the UK? Please tell me not.

     Huh?
  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #1 - September 11, 2008, 09:46 PM
    Looks like it is.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #2 - September 12, 2008, 03:08 AM
    I will not tell you then.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #3 - September 12, 2008, 09:15 AM
    Hi Kingl

    yes it does indeed go on in the UK, within various south asian communities. Its not just Muslims who do it though, I have seen this with Punjabi Sikhs and plenty of conservative 'village-type' Hindus. Whether its actually part of Islam is debatable, however, the fact that Islam does create a situation where the man is the king of the nest and the women his doormats, its inevitable something like this would creep in.
    The point is the man is revered so much because these women are often dependent on him in every way practically (particularly the older women) and the son's also are seen as important for these women's survival later on (remember girls supposedly 'leave' and go to another family finmad and are meant to look after their husband's parents etc).

    While they convince themselves that they are equal in Islam, truthfully these women know without their precious sons and husbands, life would be difficult for them on various levels.

    You get this in other ways- for example- Nour's thread about the south asian women sitting in the back, almost always, while the men are driving the cars...
    There is something about Islam which celebrates and romanticizes the 'men' taking 'charge' of their women (those helpless, hapless little beings...) and there is something these women find deeply enticing about it (as long as they have sons though)...


    Marmalade Lady
  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #4 - September 12, 2008, 09:42 AM
    Quote from: Marmalade-Lady on September 12, 2008, 09:15 AM
    Hi Kingl

    yes it does indeed go on in the UK, within various south asian communities. Its not just Muslims who do it though, I have seen this with Punjabi Sikhs and plenty of conservative 'village-type' Hindus. Whether its actually part of Islam is debatable, however, the fact that Islam does create a situation where the man is the king of the nest and the women his doormats, its inevitable something like this would creep in.
    The point is the man is revered so much because these women are often dependent on him in every way practically (particularly the older women) and the son's also are seen as important for these women's survival later on (remember girls supposedly 'leave' and go to another family finmad and are meant to look after their husband's parents etc).

    While they convince themselves that they are equal in Islam, truthfully these women know without their precious sons and husbands, life would be difficult for them on various levels.

    You get this in other ways- for example- Nour's thread about the south asian women sitting in the back, almost always, while the men are driving the cars...
    There is something about Islam which celebrates and romanticizes the 'men' taking 'charge' of their women (those helpless, hapless little beings...) and there is something these women find deeply enticing about it (as long as they have sons though)...


    Marmalade Lady


    You saw Sikhs doing it?
  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #5 - September 12, 2008, 09:49 AM
    Yes in certain asian areas, often the women I have seen walk behind men. I did see a few occasions here and there some sikh men walking front while the women walked behind, and a number of times they could walk alongside the men but they maintain a distance behind. It seems to be in the conditioning of a lot of south asian society.
    Its not attack on Sikhs I am just making an observations. In plenty of south asian families, as Nour pointed out, women almost always sit at the back of the car and you don't see a women often driving 'the family' to some place. Often if the women can do something she won';t incase she is seen as too 'independent', the women will step back and let the man have the stage.

  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #6 - September 12, 2008, 10:46 AM
    Oh dear, I’m sad to have my suspicions confirmed, but thanks for the replies.

    Slightly off topic, but I sold a car last year. It was bought by an Iranian for his wife who remained in the back seat of his car whilst he examined my car. When he suggested a test drive I said would his wife like to drive it since it would be her driving it. He froze in horror at the idea, and then after thinking about it for a moment waved her out of the car. He wouldn’t let her drive, or sit in front, only in the back. During the test drive I began to regret my suggestion since it was her asking all the important questions, what’s that rattling noise, etc

    The impression I got was that she was actually the more dominant, and more intelligent of the two, and yet culture/religion/whatever dictated that she should remain out of the decision to buy her own car! Crazy. wacko


    Anyway, back on topic. I work with a Muslim who has always claimed that his wife’s niqab is her free choice to dress modestly, and besides western girls by dressing the way they do are “asking for it.” I’ve not mentioned this to him yet, but what possible defence is there for expecting “your” women to walk 10 paces behind?

    TIA
  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #7 - September 12, 2008, 10:53 AM
    Bloody good question there. I can think of any number of excuses but I can't think of anything approaching an actual justification.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #8 - September 12, 2008, 11:00 AM
    By the way in parts of the middle east, and I'm largely thinking the tribal areas of Afghanistan, there has been a change in this custom. Traditionally the women were required to walk ten paces behind the men, often carrying large loads of firewood or whatever while the bloke just strode along unburdened.

    After decades of warfare there are stacks of old landmines and ammunition lying around. Guess where the women are required to walk now.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #9 - September 12, 2008, 11:18 AM
    I don't whether there is any support for this practice in Islam but it is common amongst south asian. So just to put the thigs in perspective, in village poeple have big families and so when they go out together, men walk in each other's company and women walk in each other's company.  generally men walk ahead and women behind. Some people still continue this practise when they are just 2 of them and it totally defies the purpose of going out in the first place.
  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #10 - September 12, 2008, 11:19 AM
    Hmmm,

    Kingl I am not surprised to hear about your experiences with selling the car and the Iranian couple. Women even where I come from are trained to not look or seem too 'intelligent' for the menfolk. Often times we are trained to regularly ask men things that we most of the time know. Dependency, dependency...thats the crux of it all..He obviously has an issue with his wife driving around the car and showing she knows just as much as him about it than he does.

    So much for chivalry and gentlemen- like behaviour in making those women in places like Afghanistan carry the wood and heavy stuff while the man walks in front- aren;t we women in Islam meant to be so honoured and revered?
    Heck I thought 'all' we need to do is be nice and domesticated, look after the kids, give our husband sex when he wants, be obedient to him in return for being fed and clothed (like cattle)- and then bob's your uncle..we are in heaven.

    Its just another example of Muslim male cowardice.
    If women who don't wear the niqab are 'asking for it'- why do so many women in Muslim countries even in hijabs and niqabs regularly get sexually harrassed by the men (see some of the recent threads about sexual assault on women)....If me not wearing a black bin-bag for life immediately qualifies me for sexual harrassment, why do I infact feel less sexually harrassed amongst British men then amongst asian Muslim men?
    Its also a typical one-sided view. Just because someone doesn't wear the niqab DOESN'T mean they are all walking around in mini-skirts. I for one don;t wear that kind of thing and never have. Plenty of women outside of the west in many cultures still dress 'modestly' but DON'T wear niqab....so they deserve to be sexually harrassed do theyyy? wacko If its not one thing, then it must surely be the other righttt?

    Marmalade Lady Afro
  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #11 - September 12, 2008, 11:23 AM
    Quote from: Marmalade-Lady on September 12, 2008, 09:49 AM
    Yes in certain asian areas, often the women I have seen walk behind men. I did see a few occasions here and there some sikh men walking front while the women walked behind, and a number of times they could walk alongside the men but they maintain a distance behind. It seems to be in the conditioning of a lot of south asian society.
    Its not attack on Sikhs I am just making an observations. In plenty of south asian families, as Nour pointed out, women almost always sit at the back of the car and you don't see a women often driving 'the family' to some place. Often if the women can do something she won';t incase she is seen as too 'independent', the women will step back and let the man have the stage.




    Right, fair enough if you saw it. I havent seen this in my area though. Never seen the car thing happen either. There must be a reasonable explanation because I always walk with my cousin sisters when we walked to the temple and my Mama next to me. Odd.
  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #12 - September 12, 2008, 11:27 AM
    Quote from: learn2bcalm on September 12, 2008, 11:18 AM
    I don't whether there is any support for this practice in Islam but it is common amongst south asian. So just to put the thigs in perspective, in village poeple have big families and so when they go out together, men walk in each other's company and women walk in each other's company.  generally men walk ahead and women behind. Some people still continue this practise when they are just 2 of them and it totally defies the purpose of going out in the first place.


    That makes me think that the custom probably originated with something harmless, like the simple fact that men tend to walk faster than women.  Its when it becomes the rule that you da woman, you walk behind me, that's when it becomes nasty.
  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #13 - September 12, 2008, 11:29 AM
    Quote from: Marmalade-Lady on September 12, 2008, 11:19 AM
    If women who don't wear the niqab are 'asking for it'- why do so many women in Muslim countries even in hijabs and niqabs regularly get sexually harrassed by the men (see some of the recent threads about sexual assault on women)....If me not wearing a black bin-bag for life immediately qualifies me for sexual harrassment, why do I infact feel less sexually harrassed amongst British men then amongst asian Muslim men?


    I printed the article about sexual harassment in Egypt a few weeks ago, and showed it to my work collegue saying, "see there's a country that's gone from freedom to wear what you want 25 years ago, to all women being covered today."

    The response I got was, "it was obviously even worse 25 years ago."

    Trouble is I actually think he believes this.  Roll Eyes
  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #14 - September 12, 2008, 11:30 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on September 12, 2008, 11:00 AM
    By the way in parts of the middle east, and I'm largely thinking the tribal areas of Afghanistan, there has been a change in this custom. Traditionally the women were required to walk ten paces behind the men, often carrying large loads of firewood or whatever while the bloke just strode along unburdened.

    After decades of warfare there are stacks of old landmines and ammunition lying around. Guess where the women are required to walk now.


    I know this one..... in front.  Afro  grin12
  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #15 - September 12, 2008, 01:25 PM
    Kingl you're friend is another example of a Muslim hell bent on proving everything Islamic is surely right for him and the rest of the world. That one track mind eventually results in them getting depression at some point.. You can see he doubts underneath and is trying to stringently hold onto this beliefs out of fear. Muslims do sometimes come out with some of the most outlandish justifications for whats obviously so non-sensical. I wouldn;t hold it against him- oneday it will all crash down around him, like it does for many Muslims like him..
    Yes SingK, the whole sitting behind the car thing is quite common with South Asians- its a common thing I've grown up with. Its just another way of south asian men to puff themselves up as much as possible. Almost always also in 'family' travels to relatives houses and so forth the men are driving the women, who sit behind. Young boys will sit behind as well, but if its a toss between an older son who has grown up to be able to drive and the mother of the family, its the son who will sit in the front with the dad- I have seen that sooo many times. Even if its an older sister versus a slightly younger brother- if both can drive- I guarantee you mostly the boy will be told to sit in the front with his dad...
    Girls do drive around a bit more now but mostly when it involves not shpwing up the men in the family in anyway...e.g by themselves or just taking their kids to school or something...

    Stupidity a la South Asian society...


    Marmalade Lady
  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #16 - September 12, 2008, 01:35 PM
    Quote from: Marmalade-Lady on September 12, 2008, 01:25 PM
    Kingl you're friend is another example of a Muslim hell bent on proving everything Islamic is surely right for him and the rest of the world. That one track mind eventually results in them getting depression at some point.. You can see he doubts underneath and is trying to stringently hold onto this beliefs out of fear. Muslims do sometimes come out with some of the most outlandish justifications for whats obviously so non-sensical. I wouldn;t hold it against him- oneday it will all crash down around him, like it does for many Muslims like him..
    Yes SingK, the whole sitting behind the car thing is quite common with South Asians- its a common thing I've grown up with. Its just another way of south asian men to puff themselves up as much as possible. Almost always also in 'family' travels to relatives houses and so forth the men are driving the women, who sit behind. Young boys will sit behind as well, but if its a toss between an older son who has grown up to be able to drive and the mother of the family, its the son who will sit in the front with the dad- I have seen that sooo many times. Even if its an older sister versus a slightly younger brother- if both can drive- I guarantee you mostly the boy will be told to sit in the front with his dad...
    Girls do drive around a bit more now but mostly when it involves not shpwing up the men in the family in anyway...e.g by themselves or just taking their kids to school or something...

    Stupidity a la South Asian society...


    Marmalade Lady



    Right, I see. I have noticed that quite a bit.
  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #17 - September 12, 2008, 02:13 PM
    Why do you think that is MSingK? Now that you've realise you did notice this, i would like to hear your honest opinion about this?

  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #18 - September 12, 2008, 02:17 PM
    Quote from: Marmalade-Lady on September 12, 2008, 02:13 PM
    Why do you think that is MSingK? Now that you've realise you did notice this, i would like to hear your honest opinion about this?




    I dont actually think it has to do with female inferiority. I just like sitting at the front and hate sitting at the back. I contend with my sister for the front seat. Good leg room and you have access to the controls.  grin12

    I think the mum might stay with the kids incase anything happens (like puking which can be common) or something like that. The mum normally does it because the mum normally looks after the kids. If the mum sat at the front, all hell would break loose. Mothers dont usually learn to drive in those cultures most of the time so they wouldn't drive.
  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #19 - September 12, 2008, 02:42 PM
    I take your point about mothers often sitting at the back if the kids are young, but thats not really what i m agetting at.
    Sorry there have been MANY instances, when you can see boys are in the front along with fathers because they are boys. And there are many young girls who drive, and don;t have children, yet the boy will be expected to be in the front. Sorry I do believe there is a clear inferiority complex going on. They will hardly tell a young girl to drive them, especially if a lot of them are men.
    In many cases, if say the father needs to be taken to the airport, they won't ask the girl veyr much, they will always ask the boy to take themm...whyy?
    The older women might not drive as often as earlier, but whats wrong with her sitting in the front with the father, especially if the other kids are older or even if they haven;t got any kids.
    If there is another older man for example, they will tell her to sit at the back and the other guy will sit in the front with the father..
    It all may seem like I am obsessing over this, but I am sorry there is a point to why women are often in the back. and thats not purely to do with leg room and babies puking.. finmad

    Marmalade Lady


  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #20 - September 12, 2008, 02:52 PM
    Quote from: Marmalade-Lady on September 12, 2008, 02:42 PM
    I take your point about mothers often sitting at the back if the kids are young, but thats not really what i m agetting at.
    Sorry there have been MANY instances, when you can see boys are in the front along with fathers because they are boys. And there are many young girls who drive, and don;t have children, yet the boy will be expected to be in the front. Sorry I do believe there is a clear inferiority complex going on. They will hardly tell a young girl to drive them, especially if a lot of them are men.
    In many cases, if say the father needs to be taken to the airport, they won't ask the girl veyr much, they will always ask the boy to take themm...whyy?
    The older women might not drive as often as earlier, but whats wrong with her sitting in the front with the father, especially if the other kids are older or even if they haven;t got any kids.
    If there is another older man for example, they will tell her to sit at the back and the other guy will sit in the front with the father..
    It all may seem like I am obsessing over this, but I am sorry there is a point to why women are often in the back. and thats not purely to do with leg room and babies puking.. finmad

    Marmalade Lady



    Yeah, you're right about that when I think about it but I never associated sexism with it before. It's just that boys are expected to do the work, that's probably why they drive more etc. I dunno about sitting in the front though. Most of the time it is a male dominant thing though, i suppose. It's just how it is. Ive never seen anyone complain about it before though, maybe they should.
  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #21 - September 12, 2008, 02:59 PM
    Its less a complaint, as a sense from me as well as other women (and even men)- whats the point of raising this? In the larger scheme of things plenty of other more cruel things happen to women, yet the car example is one out of many which ends up being trickled down into the everyday interactions of that society. Yes boys are expected to do the work, but girls are expected to 'follow' and be goody obedient little housewives (which isn't work?). Truth is there is a point to why a man sits at the front and I guarantee you if an older man and older women both knew how to drive (there are a few older asian women I know), she will, being skillfully aware of the dynamics of that society, 'let' the man drive..especially if it involves driving other 'family members'.


    Marmalade Lady  wacko
  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #22 - September 12, 2008, 03:23 PM
    Quote from: Marmalade-Lady on September 12, 2008, 02:59 PM
    Its less a complaint, as a sense from me as well as other women (and even men)- whats the point of raising this? In the larger scheme of things plenty of other more cruel things happen to women, yet the car example is one out of many which ends up being trickled down into the everyday interactions of that society. Yes boys are expected to do the work, but girls are expected to 'follow' and be goody obedient little housewives (which isn't work?). Truth is there is a point to why a man sits at the front and I guarantee you if an older man and older women both knew how to drive (there are a few older asian women I know), she will, being skillfully aware of the dynamics of that society, 'let' the man drive..especially if it involves driving other 'family members'.


    Marmalade Lady  wacko


    True say. The emoticon says it all.  Cheesy

    Wacko emoticon that is.
  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #23 - October 11, 2008, 04:58 PM
    It's understandable that someone should move to a country other than that of birth in search of a 'better' life. But better for whom? Surely betterment should be shared by those closest to you. Neil

    PS: My wife often walks ten paces behind me ... if only I'd known that, it might have saved me a lot of explaining. N
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #24 - October 11, 2008, 07:13 PM
    its a cultural/tradition/sexist thing

    it rarely happens with 2nd generation plus immigrants.
  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #25 - October 12, 2008, 05:40 AM
    That's good to hear, Train. I've not lived in the UK for more than twenty years and visits back have been few and short, but I must admit that the practice did seem to be pretty evident in some areas before I left. It was then one of the very few obvious, outward signs of an unbalanced set of values. Neil
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #26 - October 12, 2008, 06:10 AM
    Apparently it still is.  Wink
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #27 - October 13, 2008, 01:09 PM
    Hey everyone.

    I just wanted to add that I live in an Arab country and have lived in Arab communities in the West and the 'paces behind' thing is something I've never seen.  So I just wanted to point out that it's not something common across Muslim cultures. What I do commonly see among people from Eastern cultures is women carrying packages and the man carrying the child, or if there are no packages, then the woman carrying the child. 

    Re: Iranian wife with the car: Nothing that you said she seemed to be the dominant personality, which isn't a surprise to me, is it possible she just wanted to make her husband deal with the used car dealer?   Afro

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #28 - October 13, 2008, 01:27 PM
    I actually know a second generation married couple who walk man in front, woman behind, I commented on it once and she said it was so that he could be in a defensive position infront of her incase anything happened.  She was my sister in law and the whole walking behind the man thing, screens in every doorway, not going to the kitchen at the same time as one of the men, or running out to serve your husband when he arrived in the house was the norm.

    I walked faster than my ex husband, I walk pretty fast all the time so I wasn't walking behind no one.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: 10 paces behind husband?
     Reply #29 - October 13, 2008, 02:55 PM
    I saw something kinda funny and sad at the same time on my way home from work one day.

    This man and his niqabbed wife were crossing the street, wife slightly behind husband, trying to keep her veils from flying away in the wind and they were almost all the way across the street when this cyclist came speeding by, almost smashing right into the pair of them, letting out a very loud 'F*CKIN' 'ELL!' in their general direction.

    The man just gave the cyclist a quizical look and the two kept on walking. 

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
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