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 Poll

  • Question: What Next?
  • Belief in selected facets of Islam - 0 (0%)
  • Atheism - 11 (34.4%)
  • Agnosticism - 9 (28.1%)
  • Conversion to Another Religion - 1 (3.1%)
  • Privately held belief in a self-formulated god - 5 (15.6%)
  • Indifference - 6 (18.8%)
  • Total Voters: 31

 Topic: What Comes After Apostasy

 (Read 9351 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • What Comes After Apostasy
     OP - October 11, 2008, 11:09 AM
    I really have no established right as only an occasional correspondent here to pose this question. I hope, though, that you will forgive my presumption and agree that the result of a simple poll might be of interest to all members.

    I'm intrigued to know what comes after the rejection of some or all Islamic beliefs and adherence to traditional laws and codes:

    *Belief in selected facets of Islam (the acceptance of only some teachings and historical assertions)

    *Atheism (the utter rejection of all supernatural influence on mankind and the cosmos)

    *Agnosticism (inquisitive indecision as to supernature)

    *Conversion to another religion (embracing an altenative theistic belief system and its scriptures)

    *Privately held belief in a self-formulated god (deism -- a uniquely defined view of a personal or impersonal godhead)

    *Indifference (the feeling that religion has no relevance)

    I've tried to cover the bases in these six options, but as in all polls, nothing can be black and white, so I'd be glad to hear in individual posts if there are alternative lines of thought after rejection of the Islamic faith. I do think that reasons for apostacy are well covered elsewhere in these forums, so perhaps those are not relevant in this particular thread. 'Perhaps'. Maybe I'm wrong and the reason-why influences later convictions.

    Very best wishes from one not even entitled to a vote in this poll. Neil (ex-agnostic, current atheist)

    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #1 - October 11, 2008, 01:33 PM
    Are you asking us what became of us after apostasy or what we think should come after apostasy in general?
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #2 - October 11, 2008, 04:21 PM
    Wondering what, BerberElla, people find they believe or don't believe after a rejection of wholehearted Islam if, of course, they didn't lapse into indifference. I guess presence at this site suggests members are not entirely indifferent and would have an answer of atheism, agnosticism, conversion to another religion or some form of deism.

    To some extent anyway, it goes back to a couple of notes you and I swapped in another thread about whether or not there is an inherent agnosticism or even atheism in those who once were firm in a stated conviction. I'm interested to find many formerly devout religonists retain a certain theistic belief and how many discover atheism or questing doubt in agnosticism after renouncing a particular faith.

    Cheers. Neil
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #3 - October 11, 2008, 08:32 PM
    I think the poll should, if there are enough apostates in each of the following categories, be taken on, say, a 3, 6 and 10 year aftermath basis. I say this because it's not uncommon for time to further dull any feelings of guilt once belief has gone, so that all of the resetting of thought processes and seemingly instinctive feelings of attachment have run into the sand.
    As an ex-believer of c. 46 years I can still remember the exponential nature of the journey from belief to non-belief. As we know the asymptotic period seems to last forever and that's probably all that agnosticism is.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #4 - October 11, 2008, 09:30 PM
    I like the way this is worded, "questing doubt in agnosticism". That's me, /deist, see god however I want to see him, or not see him.
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #5 - October 12, 2008, 05:31 AM
    That's an interesting point, Sojournerlumus. And you're quite right, of course. That someone should go through a period -- long or short -- of some confusion after losing a lifelong faith that may go back to the mists of time in his or her family, would be more than understandable. Changes of stance over ensuing years are, I suppose, all but inevitable. And I guess that's a good sign that the rejection of dogma frees and opens to mind to a whole range of options.

    Thanks, Awais. I must admit that deism has always confused me. The notion of an unfathomable creator god of some kind that then stands back and pays no further attention to its creaton seems so nebulous as to be irrelevant. I do have several deep-thinking deist friends, though. Whatever their individual belief (and every deist seems, with good reason, to have a different take), they're not hard to get along with because their belief system involves no dogma, isn't at all intrusive, they wouldn't dream of trying to make converts, and they tend to be open-minded, reason-based folk. When I emerged from agnosticism into atheism maybe about forty years ago, I found it tough to understand agnostics, too. I've come around now, though, and have great respect for those who openly admit indecision. Perhaps because, in my experience anyway, many of them, as they question themselves over time, often do lose doubt and to find themselves embracing 'full blown' atheism.

    Cheers. Neil
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #6 - October 12, 2008, 09:50 AM
    For me I went from believing in Islam, to believing that Islam was false but god must still be real, a search for a replacement but a slow realisation that even the idea of god was in itself faulty and that god must not exist.

    I think I'm a hopeful atheist more than anything else.  I don't believe in god, I am hopeful that I will be proven wrong one day because it would be nice to know there is more waiting for me when I die, but that's like my wishes that magic and fairies were real lol. 

    I have found alot of ex muslims seem to be agnostic or a deist of some type.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #7 - October 12, 2008, 10:41 AM
    I voted "privately held belief in a self-formulated god." For me, the appeal of theology is still there, too strong to be negated completely. I reject almost everything formulated by religions or cults, though --afterlife, theology, revelation, the monopoly of dogma, any kind of spiritual existence. My solution is a mixture of idealism, utopianism, and mysticism I think.
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #8 - October 12, 2008, 12:39 PM
    I chose Agnosticism - though I do believe there is 'something' - I am reluctant to try to formulate any definition of what that might be as it would be pure conjecture. (And yes I know that my belief there is 'something' is also conjecture - but that much conjecture I'm willing to make  grin12)
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #9 - October 12, 2008, 07:59 PM
    Different people believe in different things. A more personal and supernatural god than allah appeals to some after apostasy from islam so they turn to christianity (as an example). My own apostasy came after long and hard searching which included other religions so I stem towards atheism, though lack of control in my life tends to make me a little superstitious at times — something I try hard to break out of.

    I picked ‘indifference’ but it doesn’t quite encompass my views. I believe religions have relevance as in we have literally millions of people getting taught legends and fairy tales, as well as nonsensical bollocks as ‘fact’, but I don’t think religions bear any relevance on how you should live your life.
    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #10 - October 13, 2008, 05:14 AM
    ***I don't believe in god, I am hopeful that I will be proven wrong one day***

    Don't hold your breath, BerberElla. Who nows how many thousands of years mankind has nursed a notion of supernature and gods ... and far from finding the slightest shred of evidence in all that time, the possibility is fading fast in the face of science and reason. The idea of any god, I think, is founded on fear and wishful thinking, and is then manipulated to create self-serving organisations (religions) to the benefit of the groups' leaders. That blind faith is considered a virtue shows that there has never been serious consideration of truth or evidence. In fact, questioning is traditionally discouraged and often outlawed as heresy. Cheers. Neil
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #11 - October 13, 2008, 09:37 AM
    I opted for indifference 'cos I am indifferent to religion these days.  I do believe in a higher spirit of which we are all a part of but for those who still need the opiate of organised religion, so be it.  Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks, I say.
    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #12 - October 13, 2008, 10:57 AM
    Quote from: Nour on October 13, 2008, 09:37 AM
    I opted for indifference 'cos I am indifferent to religion these days.  I do believe in a higher spirit of which we are all a part of but for those who still need the opiate of organised religion, so be it.  Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks, I say.


    I think it meant 'are you indiff to a belief in God?', not religion. Assuming you were once a practising whatever, I don't really undertsand how you can just be 'indifferent' to religion. Surely you should feel rather stupid, angry, conned and have an attitude of once bitten twice shy? Or did it never mean that much to you in the first place? Did you believe in the 'higher spirit that we are all a part of' when you were in your religion (again, assuming you were)?
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #13 - October 13, 2008, 03:06 PM
    Quote from: Jack Torrance on October 13, 2008, 10:57 AM
    Quote from: Nour on October 13, 2008, 09:37 AM
    I opted for indifference 'cos I am indifferent to religion these days.  I do believe in a higher spirit of which we are all a part of but for those who still need the opiate of organised religion, so be it.  Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks, I say.


    I think it meant 'are you indiff to a belief in God?', not religion. Assuming you were once a practising whatever, I don't really undertsand how you can just be 'indifferent' to religion. Surely you should feel rather stupid, angry, conned and have an attitude of once bitten twice shy? Or did it never mean that much to you in the first place? Did you believe in the 'higher spirit that we are all a part of' when you were in your religion (again, assuming you were)?



    I feel indifferent.  No other way of putting it.  If others want to believe in a god or gods then so be it!  Just keep your beliefs to yourself and I'll keep mine to myself.  That's always been my motto.  I've had/have friends who are Mormon, Jehova's Witnesses, Catholic, Hindu, Muslim, etc. and we never let our differences in belief get in the way of being friends.
    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #14 - October 13, 2008, 03:29 PM
    Quote from: Nour on October 13, 2008, 03:06 PM

    I feel indifferent.  No other way of putting it.  If others want to believe in a god or gods then so be it! 


    I don't mean have a go at them or anything, but to me anyway, it affects my opinion of them on a deeper level, a level that you don't get into with most people, so it doesn't matter - but I don't feel indifferent to it, it's like 'But Why? You seem so rational and sane in every other way!'* Cry

    *In some cases Smiley

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #15 - October 15, 2008, 01:45 AM
    Hya Nour. I have not been around these boards long enough to get to know you (though I have read several of your posts), so it's difficult to guess if you may be offended by my response to your last. But I wonder why you are here if you're 'indifferent'. Please don't get me wrong, the last thing I want is to take issue with a point of view, but the very fact that you keep this company would seem to suggest that religion, lack of it or at leat the questioning of it does have great relevance to you. Would not 'undecided' or 'discovering irrelevance' perhaps not be a more accurate description of your stance than 'indifference'? Feel free to accuse me of trying to put words in your mouth and I'll back down; but I don't think membership of these boards and the number of posts you've made gives the impression of someone who's bored and doesn't care one way or t'other. Bestest.  Neil
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #16 - October 15, 2008, 09:13 AM
    Hello Neil.

    Thanks for your questions!  It's not that I am bored...  Well, I am bored of all the Christian Bible bashers as I've spent a lifetime being accosed by that lot but frankly I don't give a hoot what others believe, as long as it doesn't harm me or other people then it's fine.

    If someone from the Jewish side of my family were to suddenly turn around one day and proclaim themselves a devout Zionist I would say, fine, that's what you believe but don't try to persuade me that your way of thinking is the way to G-d.

    For instance, my Muslim husband (we're separated now, but still get along) truly believes that I am hellbound because I have given up the path of Islam.  I say to him, fine, you believe I'm going to hell, I believe there is no hell, just perpetual reincarnations on this earth until we get it right.  We differ in out beliefs but we agree to disagree.  As long as we can respect that others have different beliefs and leave well enough alone than I am fine with that. 

    Now, on the other hand, when someone or a group of people go around trying to force their beliefs or way of life on others then that is when I get upset.

    Hope that clarifies things a bit for you.
    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #17 - October 15, 2008, 09:15 AM
    BTW, I'm here because I find the discussions stimulating, and it helps me pass the time at work! dance
    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #18 - October 16, 2008, 07:35 AM
    I understand the live-and-let live point of view, Nour. It's an outlook most reasonable folks would share, I think. It's intrusion that bugs me, too. The problem is, of couse, that we see it in so many areas; not just those pesky door-knockers on a mission, but in the supposedly secular fields of education, government and law. Freedom from religious control was hard won in the west after its dominance for 1,800 yeasrs up to the Enlightnment, and it seems to me that there's an insidious, creeping evanglism back at work today that threatens this precious freedom. Very best. Neil
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #19 - October 16, 2008, 09:41 AM
    Quote from: neilmarr on October 16, 2008, 07:35 AM
    I understand the live-and-let live point of view, Nour. It's an outlook most reasonable folks would share, I think. It's intrusion that bugs me, too. The problem is, of couse, that we see it in so many areas; not just those pesky door-knockers on a mission, but in the supposedly secular fields of education, government and law. Freedom from religious control was hard won in the west after its dominance for 1,800 yeasrs up to the Enlightnment, and it seems to me that there's an insidious, creeping evanglism back at work today that threatens this precious freedom. Very best. Neil


    I agree with your Neil.  I certainly don't like the widespread influence of the 'Religious Right' in the United States with their anti-abortion campaigns and their efforts to get creationism included into school cirriculae.  I am a firm believer in the firm separation of church and state as theocracies simply do not work.  As a matter of fact I think they actually end up doing the opposite of what they set out to do. By forcing a population to adhere to a religious set of codes by law actually drives people away from religion rather towards it.  Being compelled to seek god rather than doing it of one's own volition strips the effort of it's purpose.
    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #20 - October 21, 2008, 12:54 AM
    Hi N. If you don't mind talking about it, can tell me if ex-muslims are really ostracised by their families and friends? In Australia, this religion caper doesn't seem to be taken as seriously as it is in other places.

    America seems to be full on as well. The American Atheist website has an area devoted to "coming out", as they call it. I can't get my mind around why everyone takes it so seriously?

    If you believed in baal, everyone would think you were a looney, yet had baal's tribe beaten yahweh's, instead of the other way around, the christian religion might have had a different sounding name at the top.

    I correspond with a gay guy in the US. He said he gets more grief for being an atheist than he does for being gay.

    Still, when surveyed recently, atheists came out as the least trusted group of people in the US, so no surprise there, I suppose.
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #21 - October 21, 2008, 06:22 AM
    ***He said he gets more grief for being an atheist than he does for being gay***

    Hi Ingenico. It's often said that atheists in the US find themselves at about the same acceptability level now as gays did back in the Dark Ages of the 1950s: hence popular use of the expression 'coming out' to suggest a declaration of atheism being a brave move into current social unacceptance after 'closet' unbelief.

    Even though Australia might not yet be as obviously influenced by various forms of religious exremism (though events over the past decade might well suggest otherwise), do bear in mind that remote geography and ocean-wide moats are no longer any safeguard. Australia (considered a Western culture) is as likely as anywhere else to be touched by the dangerous global politics involved in today's clash between governments inspired by Christian fundamentalism and those inspired by Islamic fundamentalism (or Jewish, come to that).

    I'm afraid I haven't got the URL to hand, but there's a lively forum of Australian atheists I used to visit from time to time. I think you might well ask them if they feel Australia's position of apparent geographical isolation means there's no significant threat to secular society.

    Very best. Neil

     

    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #22 - October 21, 2008, 10:44 AM
    I've marked agnostic because I'm still thoroughly confused about what I am. I seriously questioned Islam 6 years ago, but hung on by tiny threads until I became comfortable in my Muslim identity and let it go. With time my identity became more grounded but my beliefs more nebulous until I completely lacked belief or anything resembling orthodox belief, but still practised Islam. This situation started to seem absurd, so I woke up one day and decided to shed everything at once: stopped praying, stopped wearing hijab, and got me a boyfriend. All the things I felt deprived of as a Muslim, so all the things I felt I fully deserved as a non-Muslim.

    This sudden outward apostasy only started around 5 months ago, so I'm still confused about whether I've made the right choice, whether upsetting my family and leaving my culture for non-belief is worth it, what my ethics are and whether there really is no God.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #23 - October 21, 2008, 08:02 PM
    I think you describe very well, LadyofShalot, what might well be termed a 'social religionist'. Would you agree that there might be such an animal? Someone who goes through the motions for appearances sake but with no real conviction? If so, it's good to hear that you've now reached the more rational and admirable state of agnosticism. I'm no missionary, but I do get the impression that you might find the courage one day to take that important step into atheism. I think you should bear in mind that family, old friends and other influences might strive to return you to the faith but that you've already come too far to fully embrace that again. You can be persuaded into (or back into) religion ... but it takes a mighty effort to think for yourself and reject it. Good luck. Neil
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #24 - October 21, 2008, 10:21 PM
    Hi N

    Certainly evangelical christianity is moving ahead, but when the public purse subsidises religion to the extent it does, why wouldn't they be?

    I tend to think that there would be a lot less of these nutjobs,  if religion only got subsidised for the charity work they do and not their businesses and bulidings, as well.

    I wasn't saying that we are immune from it, I was basically saying that to date, I hadn't seen it as a problem. It was talking to US christian fundies that opened my eyes. That the times are changing, you are no doubt correct. The Bali bombings showed that. The largest muslim country in the world is on our doorstep.

    But the current Primeminister and the Opposition leader are both devout christians, so I can't see the situation improving.

    The point is, you can't discriminate and you can't label everyone because of the actions of a few.

    While islamic terrorists are in the ascendency now, don't forget it was jews back in 1947. The christians, where do you start? They have all had their moment in the sun, for want of a better analogy.

    No a system that subsidises westborough baptist church, needs a total rethink.

  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #25 - October 22, 2008, 05:29 AM
    Westborough Baptists Church is doing an admirable job of demonstrating just how far things can go, Ingenico. God hates pretty well everyone not a member of its nutty congregation. But when you look at some other Christian cults -- and even the maistream -- it's not difficult to envisage the slippery slope to Phelpsian fanaticism. Cheers. Neil
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #26 - October 22, 2008, 06:05 AM
    Quote
    Westborough Baptists Church is doing an admirable job of demonstrating just how far things can go, Ingenico. God hates pretty well everyone not a member of its nutty congregation. But when you look at some other Christian cults -- and even the maistream -- it's not difficult to envisage the slippery slope to Phelpsian fanaticism. Cheers. Neil


    Yes, N. Todays heresy can be tomorrows orthodoxy and vica versa.

    Once upon a time, it was considered Ok to show a heretic the error of theior ways with a bonfire, today, it's not. Tomorrow, who knows?
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #27 - October 22, 2008, 11:28 AM
    Ingenico, please do not use red text when quoting other members. The quote function is easy to use, as I explained to you in a pm. We run a variety of themes to give our members freedom of choice and whatever colour you select will be hard to read on some backgrounds. If you let the theme's css take care of the text colours there wont be any problem.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #28 - October 22, 2008, 01:49 PM
    Neil, I'll hazard that most religionists are 'social religionists', who goes around being religious when there's no one to watch, save a crazy few, including myself? Cynical I know, but this is what I seriously think.

    I didn't so much practise religion because there were people to see. For a long time I didn't practise the rituals but maintained the outward appearance for cultural reasons. Then I started practising everything because I had nothing much to lose. I was doing half of it anyway, had no choice about it ultimately, so why not practise it all properly?
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell
  • Re: What Comes After Apostasy
     Reply #29 - October 22, 2008, 04:19 PM
    Quote
    If someone from the Jewish side of my family were to suddenly turn around one day and proclaim themselves a devout Zionist I would say, fine, that's what you believe but don't try to persuade me that your way of thinking is the way to G-d.


    Erm... Zionism happens to be a secular ideology, how does one become a "devout" Zionist? And furthermore, how does one claim that "devout Zionism" is actually any way to God? Enlighten me, please.
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
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