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Theme Changer

 Topic: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?

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  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #30 - October 30, 2008, 04:55 AM

    I'm leaning towards the belief that he was probably epileptic or something else, and at least sometimes had what he genuinely believed were revelations.  With the stipulation that, as his wife Aishah said, his lord 'hastened to satisfy his desire' with revelations that happened to sanction something he already wanted.  Ahem ahem.  I think he lived out the values and lifestyle that would have been the norm for a tribal chieftain at the time and that the reason he can't be a truly eternal prophet for all people and times - besides the fact that this stuff just doesn't exist - is that those values and lifestyles are no longer considered acceptable, just as medieval Arabian superstitions are now codified as Islamic practise for all peoples in all times.


    I'm no so sure, I mean if his epileptic visions are what he took as coming from god, there would still have to have been a certain amount of cunning in the way he turned it around to satisfy his own whims.  During his epileptic fits, whatever he saw or did not see would have been completely beyond his control and yet every order or vision he claimed to recieve was completely about his control, so it would appear that to me he was a charlatan.


    I'm not sure if I'm doing the quote within a quote right.   Roll Eyes  Well, I said that at least sometimes had what he believed to be genuine revelations.  Some of that stuff had nothing to do with hastening his desires or giving him power.  Other times, I'm thinking he just faked it.  He must have known what it looked like when he did have a spell, and the way he looked upon 'receiving revelation' has been described in a variety of ways, which leads me to think that he just did what was required or convenient at the time. I'm rather wary of this need to turn him into the most evil person of all time, because I believe that he was precisely behaving as a man of that status in that time and place would have, certainly no different than any other chieftain or king of his time or of later periods. But there is a reason we call it medieval and there is a reason it was called the Dark Ages.  Because what was acceptable or even necessary then is not acceptable or necessary now, and society has changed, evolved.

    Quote
    He died praying for forgiveness, so afraid of what would happen to him when he died you know, the only thing I can see he had to fear was the way he turned it all to serve his own needs.


    Which would mean that he believed that at least some of it was genuine revelation.  Except that I don't think he was scared of anything, not based on my reading of the seerah.  I don't think he thought he had anything to be forgiven for.  After all, he told a sahabi shortly before he died that he had been given the choice of eternal life on earth or eternal life in heaven and that he chose the latter so that he could finally 'meet with' his lord.  I think he was probably just doing what he needed to do to consolidate and hold on to political and spiritual power, by any means necessary.  Unifying the tribes, however fragile and even short lived some of it was, was an important achievement that I think, strategically, he felt justified the means.

    Quote

    Other than that, I don't think about him too much.

    I think about him because I try so hard to understand what motivates evil.


    Again, I don't see him as being the root of all evil in the world.  I don't necessarily think that studying his life or thinking about him will lead one to an understanding of someone like Hitler or Stalin or bin Ladin or any of the rest of them.  I don't know that he should be assigned more guilt for evil in the name of Islam than any of the hundreds of thousands of jurists that came after him and codified this overly boring poem and a telephone game into a massive body of rulings and writings and do and don't lists.

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #31 - October 30, 2008, 04:48 PM

    I really couldn't say whether or not Mohammed sincerely thought he was receiving revelation, but whatever was going on in his head I think it's safe to say he was a brilliant politician. Look at how many millions of people he still controls so long after his death?

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #32 - October 30, 2008, 10:57 PM


    Ibn Sa'ad, the scribe for Muhammad.
    Basically after one revelation he said "wow Allah is a great poet". Muhammad was slightly insulted that Muhammad wasn't praised for the poetry.  Ibn Sa'ad got suspicious as to why Muhammad should wish to be praised for poetry that he merely recounted rather than wrote and to test his suspicion, with some later revelations he suggested some "improvements" to the revelations - which Muhammad was happy enough to go along with.
    Based on the fact that Muhammad was prepared to change the word of Allah, Ibn Sa'ad became a Murtad, ran away, was later captured, converted back to Islam but was killed anyway.


    Do you have a source for that hupla?
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #33 - October 31, 2008, 03:35 AM

    This guy was One of the Ten people that Muhammad ordered murdered after he peacefully opened Mecca. He stated that none of them is to be given reprieve even if they were to hide behind the curtains of the kaaba. Ultimately, this guy was related to Uthman so Uthman brought him to muhammad and got the guy some reprieve. When the poet was facing muhammad, muhammad did not utter a word, after the poet and uthman left, muhammad said why didn't any of you rid me of him?

    The poet was never mentioned again after this incident and he is presumed killed very soon after Muhammad blew up on his henchman.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #34 - October 31, 2008, 06:40 AM

    Is it from a hadeeth or something?
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #35 - October 31, 2008, 07:20 AM

    Is it from a hadeeth or something?


    Sources are cited here Variable.

    Tarikh Kamil, Vol. 3 by Kamil ibn Atheer
    Ansab-ul-Ashraf, by Baladhuri
    Anwar al-Tanzil wa Asrar al-Ta'wil, by Baidawi

    I gotta look these up, and they're probably only in Arabic.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #36 - October 31, 2008, 08:23 AM

    If it's from anything that is from or similar to Tabari's history, no one will accept it unless there's an authentic chain of narration included.
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #37 - October 31, 2008, 08:29 AM

    It makes you wonder what the point of Tabari is. I mean his work has been preserved so presumably it must be regarded as having some value, yet whenever he mentions anything "inconvenient" straight away it's "oh, but that's just what Tabari says".

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #38 - October 31, 2008, 08:48 AM

    The reason I was given, was that he collected stories from everywhere and compiled them, rather than subjected them to the narration check.  Or he did, but left those with weak or non-existent chains of narration in.  In any case, it's not considered an Islamically sound source (except those parts with a strong chain provided)
     
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #39 - October 31, 2008, 09:00 AM

    Yes I understand that. It just makes me wonder what the point of preserving his work is if everyone thinks it's a load of old cobblers.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #40 - November 01, 2008, 08:52 PM

     I dont think that mohammed ever walked on earth . Afro
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #41 - November 01, 2008, 08:56 PM

    I dont think that mohammed ever walked on earth . Afro



    I'm inclined to agree.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #42 - November 01, 2008, 09:22 PM

    I dont think that mohammed ever walked on earth . Afro



    I'm inclined to agree.


    thanks, there is not many of us. Cry
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #43 - November 01, 2008, 09:30 PM

    I dont think that mohammed ever walked on earth . Afro



    I'm inclined to agree.


    thanks, there is not many of us. Cry



    And it makes all the arguing about whether or not he was a serial killer, paedophile, rapist, vampire or not seem a bit silly.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #44 - November 01, 2008, 09:37 PM

    I dont think that mohammed ever walked on earth . Afro



    I'm inclined to agree.


    thanks, there is not many of us. Cry




    And it makes all the arguing about whether or not he was a serial killer, paedophile, rapist, vampire or not seem a bit silly.


    Indeed Afro
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #45 - November 01, 2008, 10:03 PM

    Yes I understand that. It just makes me wonder what the point of preserving his work is if everyone thinks it's a load of old cobblers.


    Yeh, I kind of wonder the same thing too.  Like if some of it is so wrong, why preserve it?... or for that matter why not destroy it? 
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #46 - November 02, 2008, 12:53 AM

    My views of Mohammed are similar to those of other religious figures/saints. There's definitely a stronger current of demonisation of Mohammed compared to other figures, largely stemming from medieval European culture. This is why I'm suspicious of it, and especially now that it has a neo-con or evangelical agenda. No one would think to call Jesus a charlatan or Buddha. Sure, they didn't have sex supposedly and were very peaceful blah blah, but very little is really known about these figures and their lives have largely been constructed to fit the moral ideals of their much later followers.

    I'll say that most historical religious figures are similarly constituted. Sure, some may have been charlatans, but I don't think those would ever have become popular enough for posterity to hear of them. I don't say this because of some romantic notions of the goodnes of man, but some realistic notions of the stupidity of man. Thankfully, we're too inept to keep up a convincing lie for long, so I think any popular preacher or rabble rouser is genuine, if a bit mad. They're at least genuinely convinced of their own delusions.

    But I'll also be careful about the use of the term delusion. If someone were to claim they were the messenger sent from a distant extra-terrestrial kingdom, we'd be right to think they're a lunatic, but what if someone were to claim they had the answer to the current global financial crisis? Skeptics would be suspicious, but the majority of people will at least listen, and a good size will be converted. Similarly, we have to take historical religious figures in context. At the time of Mohammed, the air was abuzz with talk of a prophet from among the children of Ismael who would reform society and its morals. Now, when you believe something to be fact (that god is going to choose a prophet and it might be you) someone is going to start believing its them. Someone is going to think they heard voices, and then slowly and agonisingly come to the conclusion that they're the chosen one. It's agonising because it will change their life forever and they can never have a normal one again. Like most preachers and saints, Mohammed was a heretic with a hero-complex. Starry-eyed and unconventional, not afraid to rock the boat. A real rebel and my kinda guy. Wink

    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #47 - November 02, 2008, 06:37 AM

    Quote
    But I'll also be careful about the use of the term delusion. If someone were to claim they were the messenger sent from a distant extra-terrestrial kingdom, we'd be right to think they're a lunatic, but what if someone were to claim they had the answer to the current global financial crisis? Skeptics would be suspicious, but the majority of people will at least listen, and a good size will be converted. Similarly, we have to take historical religious figures in context. At the time of Mohammed, the air was abuzz with talk of a prophet from among the children of Ismael who would reform society and its morals. Now, when you believe something to be fact (that god is going to choose a prophet and it might be you) someone is going to start believing its them. Someone is going to think they heard voices, and then slowly and agonisingly come to the conclusion that they're the chosen one. It's agonising because it will change their life forever and they can never have a normal one again. Like most preachers and saints, Mohammed was a heretic with a hero-complex. Starry-eyed and unconventional, not afraid to rock the boat. A real rebel and my kinda guy.

     

    Thats a good point. In Mohammed's time the idea of being a prophet would not have been nearly as crazy as it is today. And I do think that - at least initially, when he started off he genuinely believed that he was doing the right thing, trying to solve the problems of his society.  I definitely wouldnt say he was my kinda guy though  Smiley

    Life is a sexually transmitted disease which is invariably fatal.
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #48 - November 02, 2008, 09:53 PM

    What? You don't like rebels? I must say, my views of Mohammed were alwasy the same, pre and post apostasy. I didn't think he had some weird direct line to God who favoured him above all other created souls. That's clearly nonsense and too messiah-like. I have no reason to like or not like mohammed, but being the kinda guy to make it into history books, I probably would have liked his spirit and non-conformism. The irony is, that all of us here as heretics and rebels probably would have made mohammed more proud than any stagnant, servile and conformist muslim. Likewise, most Muslims, had they been born at the time of mohammed, would have been with those who opposed him, probably.

    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #49 - November 02, 2008, 10:05 PM

    I'm not so sure of that. Judging by what has been recorded of him he wasn't keen on opposition. To me he comes across much like any other megalomaniac.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #50 - November 02, 2008, 10:10 PM

    He sounds to me like every other cult leader, especially that dude that started the Mormons, whatever his name was.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #51 - November 02, 2008, 10:15 PM

    Joseph Smith? Hmm, did he murder people who criticised him?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #52 - November 02, 2008, 10:31 PM

    No, but he lived in less lawless times than 7th century Arabia.  He was similar to Muhammed in lots of other ways though, plagiarizing bits of other religions, polygamy, paedophilia.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #53 - November 03, 2008, 07:27 AM

    He sounds to me like every other cult leader, especially that dude that started the Mormons, whatever his name was.

    I have an article by an ex-mormon comparing the two (I'll upload it when I can, I have it saved in my email, which is blocked here at work, or you can read it as pdf on this site, p.46). Opponents of mormonism used to slander Joseph Smith saying he was an "American Muhammad", and Joseph Smith is purported to even have compared himself to Muhammad, saying,

    Quote
    We will trample down our enemies and make it one gore of blood from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean. I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was "the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword."  So shall it eventually be with us --"Joseph Smith or the Sword!"


    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #54 - November 03, 2008, 07:41 AM

    What? You don't like rebels? I must say, my views of Mohammed were alwasy the same, pre and post apostasy. I didn't think he had some weird direct line to God who favoured him above all other created souls. That's clearly nonsense and too messiah-like. I have no reason to like or not like mohammed, but being the kinda guy to make it into history books, I probably would have liked his spirit and non-conformism. The irony is, that all of us here as heretics and rebels probably would have made mohammed more proud than any stagnant, servile and conformist muslim. Likewise, most Muslims, had they been born at the time of mohammed, would have been with those who opposed him, probably.


    I think this is like those moments when I read someone say they admire Hitler for being such a visionary vomit


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #55 - November 03, 2008, 08:17 AM

    Tis a tad like that. Same attitude to women too. They were only supposed to pray, make children and look after the housework.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #56 - November 03, 2008, 04:17 PM

    Quote from: ladyofshalott
    I have no reason to like or not like mohammed, but being the kinda guy to make it into history books, I probably would have liked his spirit and non-conformism.

    No reasons at all? 

    Quote from: osmanthus
    They were only supposed to pray, make children and look after the housework.

    And suffer everlasting marital rape, too. No fun without that part.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #57 - November 03, 2008, 04:24 PM

    ]And suffer everlasting marital rape, too. No fun without that part.



    Yes of course, because it's a known fact that those all those wicked muslims do this. It never happens outside of Islam either, I should add whistling2

    Can you never make a point without throwing in a massive generalisation?

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #58 - November 03, 2008, 05:09 PM

    This is amusing, every time I post I have to ward off this warrior of tolerance, who isn't above questioning my apostasy for not sharing his funny views. Where exactly is the "massive generalisation" in that post?

    Yes of course, because it's a known fact that those all those wicked muslims do this, wicked muslims do that, blah blah blah.



    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #59 - November 03, 2008, 09:23 PM

    The massive generalisation on your part is that your statement implies that all Muslim women suffer everlasting marital rape. Jack has a valid point.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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