Hirsi Ali

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Re: Hirsi Ali
Reply #30 - November 21, 2008, 06:31 AM

Quote from: awais.x on November 21, 2008, 06:27 AM
Quote from: Cheetah on November 21, 2008, 06:21 AM
If they can't implement their own Qur'an, it does look a bit ludicrous to spout that its a perfect book for all times and places.

Just because the people aren't perfect, doesn't mean the book is not perfect (in their eyes). there are hadith predicting this would happen anyway, so it doesn't weaken a mu'min's eemaan.

Yeah, I know the mentality you mean. And if a Khalifah were established tomorrow and Islam ruled the world, the hadith predicting otherwise would be quietly forgotten, or declared weak. Such is the marvel of the religious mindset.

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Re: Hirsi Ali
Reply #31 - November 21, 2008, 06:31 AM

Quote from: awais.x on November 21, 2008, 06:30 AM

? The hadith predicts political problems, that doesn't contradict the claim of the qur'an being 'protected'

True, but then again I go with the belief according to the hadiths the quran was not protected and verses are missing

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Re: Hirsi Ali
Reply #32 - November 21, 2008, 06:32 AM

so? a mu'min can mostly write those off...

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Re: Hirsi Ali
Reply #33 - November 21, 2008, 06:33 AM

The Qur'an hasn't been all that well protected anyway, given that it only took a hungry goat to take a few pages out.

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Re: Hirsi Ali
Reply #34 - November 21, 2008, 06:34 AM

Quote from: Cheetah on November 21, 2008, 06:31 AM
the hadith predicting otherwise would be quietly forgotten, or declared weak. Such is the marvel of the religious mindset.

The hadith I'm referring to says the khalifah will be replaced by kings, but the khalifah will come back.

I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
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Re: Hirsi Ali
Reply #35 - November 21, 2008, 06:37 AM

Quote from: awais.x on November 21, 2008, 06:34 AM
Quote from: Cheetah on November 21, 2008, 06:31 AM
the hadith predicting otherwise would be quietly forgotten, or declared weak. Such is the marvel of the religious mindset.

The hadith I'm referring to says the khalifah will be replaced by kings, but the khalifah will come back.

That's clever. Marketing men call it "assume the sale". Act as if what you want to happen is inevitable, and people are more likely to fall in line.

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Re: Hirsi Ali
Reply #36 - November 21, 2008, 07:41 AM

Yup it's like the end times and Armageddon. There has always been war and mayhem, if you get war an mayhem in the right place say Isael/Palestine then the fundies say look it's all true the end times are a commin.

I don't think I should have to point out that this is a self fulfilling prophesy and has fuck all to do with god but everything to do with what mythology people believe.

The recipe is simple. Have three "holy" books that all make conflicting claims but similar prophesies about blood soaked end times, saviors and judgment then stick them all in a hot and dusty part of the world mix with disputed land and season with weapons of mass destruction and watch the prophesy come true.

"You see we told you The Bible was the word of God"
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Re: Hirsi Ali
Reply #37 - November 21, 2008, 03:56 PM

You guys need to learn critical thinking skill, there are some good books out on logical fallacies and logic. Ayan she uses reathoric, Tariq came off as an intellectual, Ayan as just some childish school girl, "ramadanism", "handsome Tariq", wtf? thats not even debating. She was proved wrong, she made factual errors by saying majority of Muslims are litrualists, lol! majority of Muslims are hanfites, who are mostly Sufi! Barelvi to be specific.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/intro/islam-barelvi.htm

Quote
Indeed, nearly 85% of South Asia’s Sunni Muslims are said to follow the Barelvi school, closer to Sufism. The remaining 15% of Sunnis follow the Deobandi school, more closely related to the conservative practice of Islam.

Hence why I sometimes kind of get annoyed with you guys as you will blindly accept something just because an apostate said it, thats bullshit, do your own research!

Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
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Re: Hirsi Ali
Reply #38 - November 21, 2008, 03:57 PM

Quote from: King Tut on November 21, 2008, 03:56 PM
You guys need to learn critical thinking skill

Pot > kettle > ever so frikken black

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Hirsi Ali
Reply #39 - November 21, 2008, 04:04 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on November 21, 2008, 03:57 PM
Quote from: King Tut on November 21, 2008, 03:56 PM
You guys need to learn critical thinking skill

Pot > kettle > ever so frikken black

OK lets see, you don't even know the factual errors Ayan made! You just blindly support her, who is that any different then Muslims blindly following some uleema? If someone is wrong, they are wrong who gives a shit what they believe in?

Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
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Re: Hirsi Ali
Reply #40 - November 21, 2008, 04:06 PM

Quote from: King Tut on November 21, 2008, 04:04 PM

OK lets see, you don't even know the factual errors Ayan made! You just blindly support her, who is that any different then Muslims blindly following some uleema? If someone is wrong, they are wrong who gives a shit what they believe in?

Dickhead I have already discussed a couple of factual errors she made, and what?

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Re: Hirsi Ali
Reply #41 - November 21, 2008, 04:12 PM

Quote from: brucepig on November 21, 2008, 07:41 AM
Yup it's like the end times and Armageddon. There has always been war and mayhem, if you get war an mayhem in the right place say Isael/Palestine then the fundies say look it's all true the end times are a commin.

I don't think I should have to point out that this is a self fulfilling prophesy and has fuck all to do with god but everything to do with what mythology people believe.

The recipe is simple. Have three "holy" books that all make conflicting claims but similar prophesies about blood soaked end times, saviors and judgment then stick them all in a hot and dusty part of the world mix with disputed land and season with weapons of mass destruction and watch the prophesy come true.

"You see we told you The Bible was the word of God"

Incredible innit? Reminds me of one of my all time favourite quotes: "These monotheists have too many gods."

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
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Re: Hirsi Ali
Reply #42 - November 21, 2008, 04:12 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on November 21, 2008, 04:06 PM
Quote from: King Tut on November 21, 2008, 04:04 PM

OK lets see, you don't even know the factual errors Ayan made! You just blindly support her, who is that any different then Muslims blindly following some uleema? If someone is wrong, they are wrong who gives a shit what they believe in?

Dickhead I have already discussed a couple of factual errors she made, and what?

Well ok my bad then.

Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
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Re: Hirsi Ali
Reply #43 - November 21, 2008, 05:26 PM

Quote from: King Tut on November 21, 2008, 04:23 AM
Did you notice in the whole debate Ayan used logical fallacies, he has lack of critical thinking abilities. It was always attack on his character.

I don't understand what you mean? It was Ed Hussain talking - I didn't hear Ayyan talk at all.
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Re: Hirsi Ali
Reply #44 - November 21, 2008, 08:04 PM

Quote
She was proved wrong, she made factual errors by saying majority of Muslims are litrualists, lol! majority of Muslims are hanfites, who are mostly Sufi! Barelvi to be specific.

Tut, Hanafite refers to the school within Islam that people follow, literalist is a description of their interpretation of the Qur'an, so that wasn't a factual error at all, unless you can show that Hanafites interpret the Qur'an metaphorically, or otherwise non-literally. Also, your statistics only refer to Sunni muslims in South Asia, so they don't prove anything about the majority of muslims around the world.

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Re: Hirsi Ali
Reply #45 - November 21, 2008, 08:34 PM

Quote from: King Tut on November 21, 2008, 03:56 PM
You guys need to learn critical thinking skill, there are some good books out on logical fallacies and logic. Ayan she uses reathoric, Tariq came off as an intellectual, Ayan as just some childish school girl, "ramadanism", "handsome Tariq", wtf? thats not even debating. She was proved wrong, she made factual errors by saying majority of Muslims are litrualists, lol! majority of Muslims are hanfites, who are mostly Sufi! Barelvi to be specific.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/intro/islam-barelvi.htm

Quote
Indeed, nearly 85% of South Asia’s Sunni Muslims are said to follow the Barelvi school, closer to Sufism. The remaining 15% of Sunnis follow the Deobandi school, more closely related to the conservative practice of Islam.

Hence why I sometimes kind of get annoyed with you guys as you will blindly accept something just because an apostate said it, thats bullshit, do your own research!

You're the similarly of Whako Jhoko.

Kint Tut my fucking arse.

I don't care what name you give yourself.

You're nothing but a total bofoon.

There will be no white flag above our door
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Re: Hirsi Ali
Reply #46 - November 21, 2008, 09:40 PM

I haven't seen the debate but I just wanted to respond to the assertion that supporters of Hirsi Ali are no different to muslims blindly following their uleema . My support for Hirsi Ali is based on the belief that she is entitled to express opinions and live her life as she chooses without being threatened . I do not view her as infallible or omnipotent ,and should she ever decide to start issuing edicts telling us to stone or behead people she disapproves of I would not feel obligated to obey .
Incidentally Wing Nut , if you're really so keen to have more critical evaluation on this site perhaps you might learn to spell ? Then I could concentrate fully on your brilliant 'reathoric' instead of worrying about whether the litrualists and the frignles are people I should be scared of ...
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Re: Hirsi Ali
Reply #47 - December 05, 2008, 03:57 AM

Quote from: brucepig on November 20, 2008, 11:51 PM
I don't think she was out of her league at all. Ramadan is one of the most eloquent Islamists out there and he uses double speak to sound moderate but Hirsi Ali cuts through that nonsense with ease.

No she didnt, and while she is obviously a smart and talented lady, she is completely out of her depth in this case.

Ramadan is a very smart and eloquent (debating in his third language btw) man and won this debate hands down.

If you understand french I strongly suggest you watch his debate with devilliers, its highly entertaining.

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Re: Hirsi Ali
Reply #48 - December 05, 2008, 10:19 AM

Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on December 05, 2008, 03:57 AM
Quote from: brucepig on November 20, 2008, 11:51 PM
I don't think she was out of her league at all. Ramadan is one of the most eloquent Islamists out there and he uses double speak to sound moderate but Hirsi Ali cuts through that nonsense with ease.

No she didnt, and while she is obviously a smart and talented lady, she is completely out of her depth in this case.

Ramadan is a very smart and eloquent (debating in his third language btw) man and won this debate hands down.

If you understand french I strongly suggest you watch his debate with devilliers, its highly entertaining.

I speak French and have often seen Ramadan in action in French, he is good but still he failed to convince me, also the debates are always very abstract and never linked to one precise point.

Mr. Wannabe, it would be good if you can give a specific line of argument between Hirsi Ali and Ramadan where you feel one he was stronger, otherwise some people might think you are posting like a
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Re: Hirsi Ali
Reply #49 - December 05, 2008, 11:06 AM

Quote from: aife on November 21, 2008, 09:40 PM
I do not view her as infallible or omnipotent ,and should she ever decide to start issuing edicts telling us to stone or behead people she disapproves of I would not feel obligated to obey .

That is fine Aife, in the West we are not into 'believing' into people and 'submitting' to their will. I think it has something to do that everyone can stand up and say something that at the end of the day, no one demagogue can truly take over his audience. Unless that demagogue happens to be obama for now

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Hirsi Ali
Reply #50 - December 05, 2008, 09:28 PM

Baal , I was responding to a false analogy made by someone else .
As far as I'm concerned the jury's still out on Obama - the current euphoria reminds me a lot of the climate when Tony Blair was first elected , everyone was just so happy to see the end of a corrupt , destructive regime and so desperate to have a reason to feel positive about their country again that they shut their eyes to the obvious flaws that were there from the start .I'm not totally convinced by Obama , but as far as I know he hasn't actually claimed to be divine ... though given the power of the religious lobby in the US I wouldn't be surprised if someone tries that next time out .
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