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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hirsi Ali

 (Read 10573 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Hirsi Ali
     OP - October 31, 2008, 01:58 PM
    Ive been watching her debate with Tariq Ramadan on youtube and she consistantly refers to herself as a Muslim.

    I though she was an anti-Islam atheist? Does anyone have an explanation?
    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #1 - October 31, 2008, 02:01 PM
    Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on October 31, 2008, 01:58 PM
    Ive been watching her debate with Tariq Ramadan on youtube and she consistantly refers to herself as a Muslim.

    I though she was an anti-Islam atheist? Does anyone have an explanation?


    Have you a link to the You Tube debate? 
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #2 - October 31, 2008, 02:14 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on October 31, 2008, 02:01 PM
    Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on October 31, 2008, 01:58 PM
    Ive been watching her debate with Tariq Ramadan on youtube and she consistantly refers to herself as a Muslim.

    I though she was an anti-Islam atheist? Does anyone have an explanation?


    Have you a link to the You Tube debate? 


    I watched the video on another site, just type hirsi ali ramadan - I think its part 2 of the debate.

    Toward the end she ends up saying she doesnt believe in Allah so I take it she's a "cultural" muslim of sorts (if that makes any sense)

    The debate is quite good but she's clearly out of her league IMO
    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #3 - October 31, 2008, 05:08 PM
    How old is the debate?
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #4 - November 21, 2008, 04:51 AM
    I don't think she was out of her league at all. Ramadan is one of the most eloquent Islamists out there and he uses double speak to sound moderate but Hirsi Ali cuts through that nonsense with ease.
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #5 - November 21, 2008, 08:55 AM
    She's always out of her league, even when debating a vegetable. Ed Hussain wiped the floor with her, a very good debate too:

    Its funny how only really the non ex Muslim atheists support her, and a few frignle apostate ex Muslim women.

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Jbt0ktT8M
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #6 - November 21, 2008, 09:13 AM
    She has said "Muslim" she said "We (referring to herself) as Muslims" has Tariq converted her Islam  Cheesy
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #7 - November 21, 2008, 09:23 AM
    Did you notice in the whole debate Ayan used logical fallacies, he has lack of critical thinking abilities. It was always attack on his character.
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #8 - November 21, 2008, 10:25 AM
    See there you go it really is all subjective, I bet you a fundamentalist Muslim could read the thread with the clueless AgainstScience and conclude that he did a good job and held his own with a forum full of atheists. As we all know nothing could be further from the truth.

    I think she always wipes the floor with her Muslim opponents, it just goes to show no one is ever really converted by the outcome of a debate.

    parrot .
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #9 - November 21, 2008, 10:31 AM
    Quote from: brucepig on November 21, 2008, 10:25 AM


    I think she always wipes the floor with her Muslim opponents, it just goes to show no one is ever really converted by the outcome of a debate.

    parrot .


    Same here, I think she does a stand up job and really makes her points well.

    And of course I have seen islamists being creamed in debates only to lift my jaw from the floor when a muslim disagrees and says the losing side did the best.  Cheesy
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #10 - November 21, 2008, 10:38 AM
    My mother thinks that the reason I'm questioning Islam is because I read Infidel.... Roll Eyes No mother, I was questioning Islam way before that book's time...

    I'm torn with regards to Hirsi Ali. She has been brave and conquered her oppression, but I wonder how much of her book was fabricated..I guess because it's so shocking that I can't believe it would have happened. It's sad that the stuff mentioned in her book has happened a lot across the globe. Having said that, I ponder that with all biographies.
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #11 - November 21, 2008, 10:41 AM
    Quote from: heartbomb on November 21, 2008, 10:38 AM
    My mother thinks that the reason I'm questioning Islam is because I read Infidel.... Roll Eyes No mother, I was questioning Islam way before that book's time...

    I'm torn with regards to Hirsi Ali. She has been brave and conquered her oppression, but I wonder how much of her book was fabricated..I guess because it's so shocking that I can't believe it would have happened. It's sad that the stuff mentioned in her book has happened a lot across the globe. Having said that, I ponder that with all biographies.


    I took my testimony down so I;m not sure if you ever read it, people tell me they are not sure if fabricated my life too because it's so horrible and shocking, so I know some of what she must feel.

    It's hard for people who haven't seen or experienced on some level certain things, to believe, but all you have to do is look at a newspaper, or watch the news because things at that level do happen.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #12 - November 21, 2008, 10:44 AM
    Quote from: BerberElla on November 21, 2008, 10:41 AM
    Quote from: heartbomb on November 21, 2008, 10:38 AM
    My mother thinks that the reason I'm questioning Islam is because I read Infidel.... Roll Eyes No mother, I was questioning Islam way before that book's time...

    I'm torn with regards to Hirsi Ali. She has been brave and conquered her oppression, but I wonder how much of her book was fabricated..I guess because it's so shocking that I can't believe it would have happened. It's sad that the stuff mentioned in her book has happened a lot across the globe. Having said that, I ponder that with all biographies.


    I took my testimony down so I;m not sure if you ever read it, people tell me they are not sure if fabricated my life too because it's so horrible and shocking, so I know some of what she must feel.

    It's hard for people who haven't seen or experienced on some level certain things, to believe, but all you have to do is look at a newspaper, or watch the news because things at that level do happen.


    Oh yeah, I didn't mean it in the way to say "I don't believe her"...it's more like shock.

    I can't even begin to imagine how terrible it gets for some people. That is why. in that regard, I consider myself quite lucky. I've had a pretty easy life compared to some women out there. If I were to go through what you, or Hirsi Ali went through, I don't think I would be able to cope. I have to commend the bravery of all women that find their way through the hell that religion has created.
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #13 - November 21, 2008, 11:00 AM
    I debated a Muslim on an Islamic forum. I was arguing against the idea that the Koran is for all of humanity and stands for all time.

    I pushed him into a corner by asking him if he thought that crucifixion, chopping off hands and feet from opposite sides and branding peoples eyes with hot irons was an appropriate punishment for modern times. He refused to condemn it outright, instead he tiptoed around it.

    He eventually dodged the question by saying that these punishments should only be carried out in a true Islamic state of which there were none in existence and that also those punishments were appropriate for the time considering the hostility that the Muslims where up against.

    So I said the Koran is not for all people if it doesn't apply unless a perfect Islamic state has been established and it's not for all time if some of the commandments were only relevant for the circumstances that Mohammad found himself in at the time.

    He then changed the subject and asked me what translation of the Koran I had read, I said Pickthal he said it was unreliable and that I wasn't reading the Koran with an open heart.

    I said if I read the Koran with an open heart I would cease to be a skeptic. It seems to me he was making the claim that only those who suspend their disbelief and take the Koran as truth when they read it are reliable critics of the Koran!

    I told him that he still hadn't managed to defend the idea that the koran was for all of humanity for all time and the moderator suspended my account for "trolling"

    I went back to the thread as a visitor and they were all saying how I had been demolished!!!

     Cheesy Cheesy

    Nutters.
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #14 - November 21, 2008, 11:02 AM
    I don't see how that's not a reasonable point. Those are punishments are meant to be carried out by the muslim ruler, not by every muslim vigilante style like al-qaeda types would have you think...
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #15 - November 21, 2008, 11:05 AM
    Quote from: awais.x on November 21, 2008, 11:02 AM
    I don't see how that's not a reasonable point. Those are punishments are meant to be carried out by the muslim ruler, not by every muslim vigilante style like al-qaeda types would have you think...


    Bruce wasn't saying that they should be, he was saying that all of humanity doesn't live under "muslim ruler", in fact according to muslims themselves, nobody does at the moment, so therefore the Qur'an is not for all people at all times. 
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #16 - November 21, 2008, 11:07 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on November 21, 2008, 11:05 AM
    Quote from: awais.x on November 21, 2008, 11:02 AM
    I don't see how that's not a reasonable point. Those are punishments are meant to be carried out by the muslim ruler, not by every muslim vigilante style like al-qaeda types would have you think...


    Bruce wasn't saying that they should be, he was saying that all of humanity doesn't live under "muslim ruler", in fact according to muslims themselves, nobody does at the moment, so therefore the Qur'an is not for all people at all times. 


    but that is the ideal, that there be a muslim ruler, and even more ideal is that islam rules over all people for all times Roll Eyes
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #17 - November 21, 2008, 11:08 AM
    Quote from: awais.x on November 21, 2008, 11:02 AM
    I don't see how that's not a reasonable point. Those are punishments are meant to be carried out by the muslim ruler, not by every muslim vigilante style like al-qaeda types would have you think...

    Riiiight. So if Mohammed ordered it then that would be fine?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #18 - November 21, 2008, 11:09 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on November 21, 2008, 11:08 AM
    Quote from: awais.x on November 21, 2008, 11:02 AM
    I don't see how that's not a reasonable point. Those are punishments are meant to be carried out by the muslim ruler, not by every muslim vigilante style like al-qaeda types would have you think...

    Riiiight. So if Mohammed ordered it then that would be fine?


    yeah, if you were a muslim. what muhammad says goes, because he does not speak from his own desire (according to qur'an), but he speaks with the authority of allah.
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #19 - November 21, 2008, 11:13 AM
    Yeah I understand that. I'm just saying I'd still think it sux donkey balls regardless of which jumped up twat ordered it.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #20 - November 21, 2008, 11:13 AM
    It may well be the ideal, awais, but the fact that its not a reality and probably never has been since Muhammed died, somewhat undermines that particular muslim's claim.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #21 - November 21, 2008, 11:18 AM
    it not being a reality doesn't undermine the claim that it is/should be for all people and all times; and there was a 'khalifah' until about 100 years ago. Tongue
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #22 - November 21, 2008, 11:18 AM
    Yes but it proves my point rather nicely doesn't it.

    Great swathes of the Koran are to be taken in the context of the time they are supposed to have happened, certain commandments in the Koran are only supposed to be be carried out under the stewardship of a Muslim ruler or Caliphate of which there are none.

    So in what way is the Koran for all people for all time?

    It seems to me that it is not even for most Muslims seeing that most Muslims don't live in the 7th century or under a Muslim ruler but in modern times under secular governments.

    Either the Koran is a perfect book for all humanity for all times or it is a human text which we should interpret put into context and only apply under the right circumstances.

    It can't be both.

    PS: It's a catch22 it makes no sense

    Those barbaric punishments can only be carried out in a true Islamic state but it wouldn't be a true Islamic state until those laws where in place.

    You couldn't have a perfect state without those laws but you couldn't pass those laws without the perfect state.

    Anyway anyone who thinks that society will be better off once crucifixion is bought back really needs help.

     parrot
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #23 - November 21, 2008, 11:21 AM
    Quote from: awais.x on November 21, 2008, 11:18 AM
    it not being a reality doesn't undermine the claim that it is/should be for all people and all times; and there was a 'khalifah' until about 100 years ago. Tongue


    I'm afraid it most certainly does when there are over 1 billion muslims on the planet and 57 different countries with majority muslim populations.  If they can't implement their own Qur'an, it does look a bit ludicrous to spout that its a perfect book for all times and places.

    Plus, what Bruce said.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #24 - November 21, 2008, 11:22 AM
    Quote from: awais.x on November 21, 2008, 11:18 AM
    it not being a reality doesn't undermine the claim that it is/should be for all people and all times; and there was a 'khalifah' until about 100 years ago. Tongue


    So if there was Khalifah until 100yrs ago, it could happen again, and when it does the world will go up in home made flames again.  Tongue
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #25 - November 21, 2008, 11:24 AM
    Quote from: brucepig on November 21, 2008, 11:18 AM


    Those barbaric punishments can only be carried out in a true Islamic state but it wouldn't be a true Islamic state until those laws where in place.

    You couldn't have a perfect state without those laws but you couldn't pass those laws without the perfect state.



     parrot


    Not really.

    Step one - implement a khalifah

    Step two - implement sharia law extremely since you have step one sorted

    Step three - you have the perfect state since 1 and 2 are now in place

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #26 - November 21, 2008, 11:27 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on November 21, 2008, 11:21 AM
    If they can't implement their own Qur'an, it does look a bit ludicrous to spout that its a perfect book for all times and places.


    Just because the people aren't perfect, doesn't mean the book is not perfect (in their eyes). there are hadith predicting this would happen anyway, so it doesn't weaken a mu'min's eemaan.
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #27 - November 21, 2008, 11:28 AM
    Quote from: awais.x on November 21, 2008, 11:27 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on November 21, 2008, 11:21 AM
    If they can't implement their own Qur'an, it does look a bit ludicrous to spout that its a perfect book for all times and places.


    Just because the people aren't perfect, doesn't mean the book is not perfect (in their eyes). there are hadith predicting this would happen anyway, so it doesn't weaken a mu'min's eemaan.


    Hadiths predicting it's problems, yet a promise from the quran of it being protected at all times, unlike christianity and judaism.  Tongue
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #28 - November 21, 2008, 11:29 AM
    Quote from: BerberElla on November 21, 2008, 11:24 AM
    Quote from: brucepig on November 21, 2008, 11:18 AM
    Those barbaric punishments can only be carried out in a true Islamic state but it wouldn't be a true Islamic state until those laws where in place.

    You couldn't have a perfect state without those laws but you couldn't pass those laws without the perfect state.

    Not really.

    Step one - implement a khalifah

    Step two - implement sharia law extremely since you have step one sorted

    Step three - you have the perfect state since 1 and 2 are now in place


    exactly
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Hirsi Ali
     Reply #29 - November 21, 2008, 11:30 AM
    Quote from: BerberElla on November 21, 2008, 11:28 AM
    Quote from: awais.x on November 21, 2008, 11:27 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on November 21, 2008, 11:21 AM
    If they can't implement their own Qur'an, it does look a bit ludicrous to spout that its a perfect book for all times and places.


    Just because the people aren't perfect, doesn't mean the book is not perfect (in their eyes). there are hadith predicting this would happen anyway, so it doesn't weaken a mu'min's eemaan.


    Hadiths predicting it's problems, yet a promise from the quran of it being protected at all times, unlike christianity and judaism.  Tongue


    ? The hadith predicts political problems, that doesn't contradict the claim of the qur'an being 'protected'
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
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