Religion got it right before science

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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #30 - November 04, 2008, 04:10 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on November 04, 2008, 02:58 AM
Ok, let me put this another way. You say Islam is your source of information on the flood. What do you draw from Islam regarding this? You haven't got a timeline so what, exactly, do you have? I can't really discuss anything with you unless I know your position.

That there was a bottle neck of man and animals.
That this bottle neck happened many years after the first man, at a time when there were very many humans already populating earth.
That the bottleneck amazingly spared most 'evolved' species as pairs of them were rescued (by prophet Noah)to reproduce.
That this agrees with the now discovered near extinction, since such would have wiped out most species along with most men if they weren't somehow protected.
That the flood was not just caused by rain but also by water from springs.
That the flood was very brief only lasting about 6 months and was quickly emptied into crevices and sills that opened up in the earth.

That Allah knows best.
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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #31 - November 04, 2008, 04:18 AM

Ok, cool. How about we start with the genetic bottlenecks then?

Like I said in my second-to-last post there is evidence of a genetic bottleneck in cheetahs, but this occurred at a completely different time to the bottleneck in humans.

Also, there is only evidence of one tight genetic bottleneck in both species. Now obviously if they occurred at the same time you could say they may well have the same cause, but given that the timeframes are completely incompatible this can't be said. This leaves a problem for anyone proposing a global flood as the cause of the two events. This is without even considering other species that show no evidence of any similar genetic restriction.

What say you to this?

ETA: Just to help you here I've attached a link to a paper on cheetahs. Note the conclusion: the genetic bottleneck in cheetahs is approximately 10,000 years old, as opposed to 70,000 years in humans. A difference of 60,000 years is quite substantial.

http://www.pnas.org/content/90/8/3172.full.pdf

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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #32 - November 04, 2008, 04:48 AM

That is another Cheetah bottleneck.

Now my question.

Create a scenario where man had a bottleneck with starvation(lack of food =animals to eat) due to environmental stressful conditions and almost went extinct as the scientific findings suggest and animals(which he eats) were not affected.
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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #33 - November 04, 2008, 04:55 AM

Quote from: AgainstScience on November 04, 2008, 04:48 AM
That is another Cheetah bottleneck.

As it currently stands that is merely an assertion on your part. Do you have anything to back your claim of multiple genetic bottlenecks in cheetahs? If you do I would be fascinated to read it. If you don't then I'm afraid your assertion is pointless.

Quote
Now my question.

Create a scenario where man had a bottleneck with starvation(lack of food =animals to eat) due to environmental stressful conditions and almost went extinct as the scientific findings suggest and animals(which he eats) were not affected.

That is not relevant to the flood. You are claiming a bottleneck affecting all species simultaneously. To back this claim you need evidence of it happening. Do you have such evidence?

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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #34 - November 04, 2008, 05:04 AM

I guess u do not wish to answer my very simple question.

How does an environmental near extinction happen to man without happening to animals too?
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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #35 - November 04, 2008, 05:06 AM

Well I thought we were discussing the flood (and genetic bottlenecks resulting from it, of course). Until we have dealt with that what is the point of chasing every other topic on the planet?

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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #36 - November 04, 2008, 05:10 AM

Quote from: AgainstScience on November 04, 2008, 05:04 AM
I guess u do not wish to answer my very simple question.

How does an environmental near extinction happen to man without happening to animals too?

Ok, that really isn't all that difficult. You see if it happened far enough back in time the global human population would not be distributed all over the world. Consequently a local environmental problem would suffice to restrict the human population.

The same goes for cheetahs. Since they only live somewhere and not everywhere their genetic bottleneck does not require a global cause. A local cause is sufficient.

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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #37 - November 04, 2008, 05:14 AM

According to science this bottle neck occurred only 70,000 years ago. I believe u know humans were numerous spread globally at that time. Sorry ur theory is wrong. Please try again.

......
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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #38 - November 04, 2008, 05:22 AM

Ok, but you claim the human population was reduced to a handful of people. What is it? Six or so?

On the other hand geneticists say that the minimum figure would have been more like 15,000 around the time of the Toba eruption, or perhaps as low as 2,000 if you take the alternative theory about an earlier and longer bottleneck caused by conditions in sub-Saharan Africa.

One thing they are unaminous about is that a population of less than ten would result in complete extinction.

In any case, none of this does anything to demonstrate a global genetic bottleneck affecting every species in the world simultaneously, which is what you require for your story to work. You were the one who initially claimed genetic bottlenecks as evidence for your position, so I think it's fair to expect you to provide something solid to back this claim.

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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #39 - November 04, 2008, 05:26 AM

I'll add that you seem to be missing a very obvious point. All it takes is one widely distributed species that shows no evidence of a bottleneck and your story is sunk like a leaky ark. You actually need every species in the world to show this same characteristic. If even one species does not show it then your story is in big trouble.

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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #40 - November 04, 2008, 05:54 AM

So 1. Scientists work on probability guided by nature and random events. There is absolutely no reason why one Adam and one Eve can not populate earth with Allah's protection. They did it once and Noah's family did it again. Your arguments are getting more substandard by the post.

Ok so prove me wrong. Prove that every specie did not have a bottleneck 70,000 years ago while man alone did.
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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #41 - November 04, 2008, 09:00 AM

Why should I have to prove that? It wouldn't affect my position one way or the other. In any case given that not all species have been subjected to genetic studies, in fact given that not all species have even been discovered yet, there is no possible way I could prove such a thing anyway.

On the other hand you require many species, if not every species on earth then certainly a very large proportion of them, to exhibit this particular characteristic. So far you have only come up with one example. I raised the example of cheetahs to demonstrate something. Your statement that a genetic bottleneck in one species (ie: humans) is evidence of a global flood circa 70,000 years BP is no more or less compelling than me stating that a genetic bottleneck in cheetahs circa 10,000 years BP is evidence of a global flood then.

So, can you name any other species that appear to have gone through a severe reduction in genetic diversity around the same time humans did?

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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #42 - November 04, 2008, 09:19 AM

Quote
So 1. Scientists work on probability guided by nature and random events. There is absolutely no reason why one Adam and one Eve can not populate earth with Allah's protection. They did it once and Noah's family did it again. Your arguments are getting more substandard by the post.

Prove that Adam and Eve existed. Prove that Allah exists.

Quote
Ok so prove me wrong. Prove that every specie did not have a bottleneck 70,000 years ago while man alone did.

No, its you that has to prove that every species did have a simultaneous bottleneck if you want to prove the flood.

And now, how's about answering the questions I asked you in my last post. Here's a reminder of them, just to make it easier for you...

Quote
- Is it not strange that there are so many species of flightless birds found exclusively on islands? How did they get there from Mount Ararat after the Flood?

- How did all the rest of the animals fan out from Mt Ararat to the rest of the world in the exact geographical distribution predicted by evolutionary theory?

- How were all the intricate and delicate ecosystems in which specific plants and animals depend on each other preserved on board the Ark?

- How were all the animals gathered onto the Ark to begin with? Koalas, kangaroos, kiwis, gila monsters, dodos, ostriches, armadillos.

- How did Noah cope with animals which have very specific diets, like koala bears, giant pandas, silkworms?

- Many species can only eat live prey, eg, some wasps, and spiders. How did Noah manage to keep them alive?

- Most plants cannot survive immersion in water, so how did the plants survive. The dove, remember, came back with an olive branch in its beak. How did the olive trees survive the Flood?

- How did all the fish survive? Some fish need fresh water, some brackish, some salt. How did they all survive a global Flood - did Noah have aquaria on the Ark?

- How about the micro organisms which still live with us today? Which of Noah's family had to play host to the Small Pox virus, or gonorrhea, and what about crabs?

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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #43 - November 04, 2008, 09:43 AM

Quote from: AgainstScience on November 04, 2008, 05:54 AM

Ok so prove me wrong. Prove that every specie did not have a bottleneck 70,000 years ago while man alone did.

Dude, that's not how it works. It's your claim, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate the facts needed to support it.

Anyway... is that the story of the flood in Islam's worldview? The standard "animals two by two" thing? One thing I've always credited Islam for was jiving better than the other Abrahamic religions when it came to science.
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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #44 - November 04, 2008, 09:56 AM

Quote from: AgainstScience on November 03, 2008, 11:14 PM
Salaam Alaikum,

I am delighted to be of service to you all.

So yes, the topic is 'laughs', I join u in it.

Now...how can I help u all?

By granting me three wishes, Oh great Djin.

Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #45 - November 04, 2008, 10:04 AM

That could work. Make sure your third one is for three more wishes. Gets them every time.

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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #46 - November 04, 2008, 10:35 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on November 04, 2008, 09:00 AM
Why should I have to prove that? It wouldn't affect my position one way or the other. In any case given that not all species have been subjected to genetic studies, in fact given that not all species have even been discovered yet, there is no possible way I could prove such a thing anyway.

On the other hand you require many species, if not every species on earth then certainly a very large proportion of them, to exhibit this particular characteristic. So far you have only come up with one example. I raised the example of cheetahs to demonstrate something. Your statement that a genetic bottleneck in one species (ie: humans) is evidence of a global flood circa 70,000 years BP is no more or less compelling than me stating that a genetic bottleneck in cheetahs circa 10,000 years BP is evidence of a global flood then.

So, can you name any other species that appear to have gone through a severe reduction in genetic diversity around the same time humans did?

No!

For 2 reasons.

1. My bottleneck was due to adverse conditions that will affect all life as is suggested.
2. Humans are omnivorous and omni-able. It takes a lot to bottleneck them. Cheetahs on the other hand are carnivores. Just a depletion in prey-able small animals can finish them.
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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #47 - November 04, 2008, 10:37 AM

So you can't name any other species then?

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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #48 - November 04, 2008, 10:38 AM

Quote from: Variable on November 04, 2008, 09:43 AM
Quote from: AgainstScience on November 04, 2008, 05:54 AM

Ok so prove me wrong. Prove that every specie did not have a bottleneck 70,000 years ago while man alone did.

Dude, that's not how it works. It's your claim, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate the facts needed to support it.

Anyway... is that the story of the flood in Islam's worldview? The standard "animals two by two" thing? One thing I've always credited Islam for was jiving better than the other Abrahamic religions when it came to science.

No.

My simple claim was that there was a bottleneck...caused by flood. Science has now after many years agreed that there was an environmentally caused bottleneck. They are yet to figure out what caused it.

The issue remains there till further notice. It goes without question that animals suffered whatever man suffered and definitely went thru a bottleneck at the same time.

Now we wait for scientists to figure out what caused the bottleneck.
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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #49 - November 04, 2008, 10:40 AM

Quote from: AgainstScience on November 04, 2008, 10:38 AM
It goes without question that animals suffered whatever man suffered and definitely went thru a bottleneck at the same time.

Asserts things not in evidence.

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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #50 - November 04, 2008, 10:46 AM

Quote
It goes without question that animals suffered whatever man suffered and definitely went thru a bottleneck at the same time.

More nonsense. Different species occupy different evolutionary niches, so an environmental condition which adversely affects the human race may have little or no effect on the other flora and fauna around them. In fact, for the animals being preyed upon by humans, a depletion of human numbers would more likely cause an increase in their numbers, not a bottleneck.

Now, how's about answering the questions I asked you?

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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #51 - November 04, 2008, 10:53 AM

Quote from: Cheetah on November 04, 2008, 10:46 AM
Quote
It goes without question that animals suffered whatever man suffered and definitely went thru a bottleneck at the same time.

More nonsense. Different species occupy different evolutionary niches, so an environmental condition which adversely affects the human race may have little or no effect on the other flora and fauna around them. In fact, for the animals being preyed upon by humans, a depletion of human numbers would more likely cause an increase in their numbers, not a bottleneck.

Now, how's about answering the questions I asked you?

No
At that time, the Earth was just recovering from an ice age or somn, and Africa was about the only warm enough inhabited continent.

2. Ur post will only be treu if it was not an adverse climate related bottleneck. Go read about the 70,000 yr ago bottleneck. It was not a human virus, it was an environmental adversity, and this WILL AFFECT ALL(Most) species.

I studied this so I kno. U r just guessing.
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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #52 - November 04, 2008, 10:58 AM

Quote
No
At that time, the Earth was just recovering from an ice age or somn, and Africa was about the only warm enough inhabited continent.

2. Ur post will only be treu if it was not an adverse climate related bottleneck. Go read about the 70,000 yr ago bottleneck. It was not a human virus, it was an environmental adversity, and this WILL AFFECT ALL(Most) species.

I studied this so I kno. U r just guessing

Nothing in your post addresses the point I made about evolutionary niches. Which is not surprising because you still haven't answered any of the questions I asked you about the Flood. You can't answer them, can you?

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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #53 - November 04, 2008, 11:00 AM

Quote from: AgainstScience on November 04, 2008, 10:53 AM
Quote from: Cheetah on November 04, 2008, 10:46 AM
Now, how's about answering the questions I asked you?

No

Now that's a telling way to commence a response.

Quote
At that time, the Earth was just recovering from an ice age or somn, and Africa was about the only warm enough inhabited continent.

Ok, so where is this ice age mentioned in Islamic texts? Also wouldn't all of the tropics be habitable? This is of course not taking into account that there is evidence of human habitation in Europe during the last ice age.

Quote
2. Ur post will only be treu if it was not an adverse climate related bottleneck. Go read about the 70,000 yr ago bottleneck. It was not a human virus, it was an environmental adversity, and this WILL AFFECT ALL(Most) species.

I studied this so I kno. U r just guessing.

If you studied this at any reputable institution I would expect better literacy. You are still making baseless assertions. Present something concrete if you can.

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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #54 - November 04, 2008, 11:02 AM

Quote from: AgainstScience on November 04, 2008, 10:53 AM

I studied this so I kno. U r just guessing.

Reading a few online articles isn't study.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #55 - November 04, 2008, 11:07 AM

Do u guys watch the US elections?

the way the democrats prove the repubs as evil, and the repubs prove the dems as evil?

I say we wait and see the evidence as it unfolds about this recent bottleneck discovery.

Patience any1?
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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #56 - November 04, 2008, 11:11 AM

Quote from: Anti-Jihadist on November 03, 2008, 10:47 PM
I came across this the guy who claims to owns this website, have asked him to come join us here.

C'mon, AgainstScience - you are the owner, aren't you? This is an ex-muslim quality control test , isn't it?
Don't be shy. We know it's you. You almost had us fooled there. Phew!

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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #57 - November 04, 2008, 11:12 AM

They don't prove anything. They assert. Anyway if you want to leave bottlenecks alone for a while there are plenty of other subjects related to Teh Fludde. Geology, perhaps? Highly relevant and very well studied for ages.

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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #58 - November 04, 2008, 11:15 AM

There's nothing more to be said on this recent discovery of a ?flood bottleneck.

Now can some1 open my thread so we move to the next topic.

It's time I bring u guys to Islam. I kno u all were never technically Muslims b4. (apart from being born Muslim wc erry human is)
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Re: Religion got it right before science
Reply #59 - November 04, 2008, 11:17 AM

BTW, been wanting to ask. Is Islam really so great and such a hot topic u guys had open this forum about it? Or this just a money making project?
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