confused

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- Eddy
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confused
OP - November 05, 2008, 11:16 PM

hi everyone.

i am here coz one of the members, who is my friend in real, suggested me to register and have a look at the topics.

i guess, i may find some useful answers to my questions and problems here.

for you to know me more, i am a 21-year-old muslim guy from Turkey.

my family is conservative, and i have affected from this all those years while i stayed with my family. for over 7 years, i have been not staying with them due to highschool and university education. but other than that i have a nicely balanced relation with my family. i regularly visit them, and although our ideas about islam might conflict i dont want to share all my opposite ideas with them, coz this will only upset them, and i will lose all their respect and support not for only money but for other things as well.

anyway. that is enough for the background.

i have started to question islam long ago when i realized that i am not into woman but man. i mean i am gay. because islam ostracizes gay people from all the religious things and also curse them, i was not comfortable with the idea of being gay. now, as years pass, and as i become more educated, i've got used to be a gay and i started to live my feelings without any doubt.

however, i still hesitate to say that i am not muslim. i am muslim and i also respect Allah, Quran and Muhammed. i do know that there are great mistakes in islam history however it is not easy for me to ignore Islam and behave disrespectful to all these Holy things.

that is who i am for now. I am sure for my gay identity, and i live it as i want; not to that extent actually, because guys i am in turkey, how can i share my gay side with others so easily!? so, i keep it secret. but keeping it secret is not the thing that i bored, i am bored of being confused about what to believe or what to ignore about my religious.

it was nice to share my thoughts.

thanks for serving such a nice forum.
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Re: confused
Reply #1 - November 05, 2008, 11:19 PM

Hi Eddy. Welcome to the forum. You might run into Goldie if you stick around. He's a devout Muslim and gay as well. He drops in now and then. Nice bloke. Anyway make yourself at home and feel fee to ask questions.

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Re: confused
Reply #2 - November 05, 2008, 11:24 PM

Hello Eddy, welcome to the forum.

You may find useful answers to your questions and problems already here. If you don't, feel free to open a thread of your own to ask about whatever is on your mind.

"Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny." - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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Re: confused
Reply #3 - November 05, 2008, 11:37 PM

Hi Eddy,

You provided a good summary of your current predicament.

Quote from: Eddy
coz this will only upset them, and i will lose all their respect and support not for only money but for other things as well.

This is a universal problem that most ex-Muslims have to face. Perhaps they will respect your beliefs, or the lack thereof, gradually. No need to be pessimistic altogether.

Quote from: Eddy
however, i still hesitate to say that i am not muslim. i am muslim and i also respect Allah, Quran and Muhammed. i do know that there are great mistakes in islam history however it is not easy for me to ignore Islam and behave disrespectful to all these Holy things.

"Holy things" are not necessarily moral or beautiful things. Innocent people have suffered, and are still suffering, because of them.

No need to hurry the process, drifting away from Islam takes place gradually. Some people just leave Islam altogether. Some people acknowledge the errors of Islam but still choose to practice. Some people choose to embrace some modern, liberal version of Islam. All are acceptable to some degree.

Welcome home, Eddy.

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Re: confused
Reply #4 - November 06, 2008, 07:09 AM

Hi Eddy, welcome to the forum.

I hope CEMB is a place where you can be yourself.

See you round the forum
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Re: confused
Reply #5 - November 06, 2008, 08:22 AM

Welcome Eddy,

I am a secular catholic and would like to relate a little story to you from old testatment. About Joshua. Joshua in all the Christian books I read, was sold to us as an older Jesus. In the book illustration we had him sitting as a Sheppard with sheep (the title of Sheppard is usually conferred on Jesus). He was taught as if he spread love and brotherhood among the people and that was that.

One day I was tasked with teaching Sunday school and I picked this son of the bitch Joshua to teach my class about. So I went and I did some research for couple hours when I came on the following story from the old testament.

Solomon had built a jewish temple with an altar in it to Baal (OT did not mention which Baal or none that I could find). But regardless, this Baal had both male and female priests and was not in the habit of sacrificing humans as some people will quickly jump to that comfortable explanation. Their biggest sin was some of their rituals the priestesses would uncover themselves <gasp>. One day Joshua (PBUH?) got all 450 priest/priestesses and ordered them to perform a miracle to prove their god is genuine. When of course they failed to perform the miracle Joshua ordered his soldiers to kill all 450. Of course, now I can only imagine what he did with the followers later.

The question is how dare he? how dare he go and massacre people like this. And for what. His religion did not allow women to even read the Torah let alone have female priestesses. And not that I care about miracles, I do not, but he accused his victims of failing to perform a miracle but what miracle did he perform the son the bitch? And worse, he was sold to us today as the whitest heart of the whitest hearts of all the old prophets. It is as if, the worse the crime, the more we need to cover them in White and pray for their souls.

A sort of generational betrayal, a previous generation will cover up and hope to bamboozle the next generation and they do. I was bamboozled about this Joshua fella until my mid-twenties. Luckily my generation has Google and it took me 2 hours to unravel what he was about. Of course, later it took me couple years to accept what I found about the man in Two hours.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: confused
Reply #6 - November 06, 2008, 08:25 AM

Ok, now I'm the one confused , Baal what was the moral of the story or the relevence of what you just shared where it relates to this thread?

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: confused
Reply #7 - November 06, 2008, 08:28 AM

I just remembered this story from few years ago and was thinking about it today.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: confused
Reply #8 - November 06, 2008, 08:59 AM

Hi Eddy and welcome.

I have a quick question if you don't mind.

It seems that Turkish people now have a high level of English literacy.

Is that common among young Turkish people or only university graduates like yourself?
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Re: confused
Reply #9 - November 06, 2008, 10:45 AM

Quote from: Baal on November 06, 2008, 08:22 AM
Luckily my generation has Google and it took me 2 hours to unravel what he was about. Of course, later it took me couple years to accept what I found about the man in Two hours.

hi Baal,

thank you for your effort to write this long respond. i have recently begun to suspect about islam, and it will take long time for me too to accept all the wrong things in islam, and decide either to live it anyway or become an apostate.

Quote from: speaklow on November 06, 2008, 08:59 AM
It seems that Turkish people now have a high level of English literacy.
Is that common among young Turkish people or only university graduates like yourself?

hi Speaklow,

yes that is true, most of the youngers in turkey now know english better than ever. but this is still limited to university students and graduates. especially graduates from universities that give the courses in english. other than that people dont have english literacy that much.
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Re: confused
Reply #10 - November 06, 2008, 10:49 AM

Eddy what you have to remind yourself is that you don't need to feel beholden to remaining in a religion that says how you feel and who you feel love for is a sin.

Islam is just an idea that someone (mohammed) invented from a mish mash of other religions as a way to carve out power for himself and from him were birthed generations of people who used Islam for power and to gain leadership.

What is it that has started you doubting Islam?

Aside from the gay side of things?

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: confused
Reply #11 - November 06, 2008, 11:01 AM

Al Fatiha is a LGBT muslim support group, they have many discussion groups, listed here.

When I was muslim, I sought to strengthen my faith by challenging all doubts. I have subsequently lost it, because Islam couldn't stand up against some of them. I suggest you do this as well. Never stop questioning, always try to look at things from many perspectives. Scrutinize without bias (as best you can ).

Islam has many great teachings (despite what some people may say), and still has much influence on how I became who I am today, but it is no longer 'The Truth' for me.

If you can find a way to reconcile your sexual orientation with your practice of Islam, that's cool. We will be here for you if you want to explore your doubts, vent, or just hang out.

-Awais

I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
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Re: confused
Reply #12 - November 06, 2008, 04:04 PM

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I remain.
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Re: confused
Reply #13 - November 06, 2008, 07:31 PM

Hi Eddy, welcome to the forum. I think you just took an important first step today.

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Re: confused
Reply #14 - November 06, 2008, 10:27 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on November 06, 2008, 10:49 AM
Eddy what you have to remind yourself is that you don't need to feel beholden to remaining in a religion that says how you feel and who you feel love for is a sin.

I am not quite sure about that. all those years i was told that religion was part of me and without of it i was nothing. now, when i try to convince myself that i dont need islam for the rest of my life, i just scare of it. i mean, i already felt that i am sinful because of being gay (but anyway i chose to live with this), but beside being gay, i cant dare to refuse islam.

okay, maybe you would say that, then dont be apostate but try to reconcile your sexual orientation with your practice of Islam as Awais.x said.
Quote from: awais.x on November 06, 2008, 11:01 AM
If you can find a way to reconcile your sexual orientation with your practice of Islam, that's cool. -Awais

however that is not appropriate i think. isn't islam a whole? it doesnt make any sense to accept some rules and to disagree with some other rules that is not okay with you. you have it as a whole, or you ignore it completly. i am stuck in this idea lately.

Quote from: BerberElla on November 06, 2008, 10:49 AM
What is it that has started you doubting Islam?
Aside from the gay side of things?

okay, aside from being gay:

i didnt directly start to question islam because of the mistakes that affect people all around the islamic world. i was ratherly not comfortable because i was not following the regular praying exercises, i was drinking alcohol, and then i was having some nasty staff (you know what i mean) etc. islam was limiting all my life with bunch of rules in order to "protect" me not to have a bad life, however, all those forbidden things seemed too attractive to me. why did god created all those beautiful things if we were not allowed even to get closer them? does god want to satisfy himself when his disciples obey his rules? why? does he need this? it is obviously not for our sake.
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Re: confused
Reply #15 - November 06, 2008, 10:45 PM

Eddy, try and relax a bit, it helps the thinking.
How can the way you are born be sinful? If you believe in the concept of sin and you've been taught about sin, then you must have realised by now that it's a wilful phenomenon. Sexual orientation is not an act of will, it's the way that you've been made by your parents, possibly something that happened to you during your time in the womb.
You can't change that. What you can change is the way you feel about yourself. Stop feeling guilty or furtive or dirty. You're not. About one in 20 people are Gay, so there's nothing unusual about you.
The problem with any religeous dogma is that it forces people to think in black or white, right or wrong. Reality isn't like that.
You'll have to try and reconcile what you are with your religion but don't let your religion become an unpassable barrier to future happiness.
Learn to live your life on your own terms. It's scary at first but if you want to find you way to your god there are many ways to do it.

Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
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Re: confused
Reply #16 - November 07, 2008, 08:27 AM

Quote from: Eddy on November 06, 2008, 10:27 PM
i didnt directly start to question islam because of the mistakes that affect people all around the islamic world...

Sorry to interrupt the thread a little. I have a question that I always pose to muslims and I am very curious what kind of an answer I would get from a Turk as I never asked One before. In the present days, it seems that we have a bunch of people who have 'the correct book' yet somehow, the more any society adopts that book, the closer they adopt it, the worse off their lives become.

It is as if this book is a curse when you consider it. As in, if you are unlucky enough to have this book implemented in your society, you are screwed. Screwed on every level possible. A total failure to compete. Even your terrorist will live in terror from the terrorists (armies) of other countries.

Of course, all around me, they were blaming america and england, and rarely Turkey (ottoman), even the French who were in Egypt for Three years get blamed. But really, why blame those who do not have the book.

If you were to pick a society, which society from the last 1400 yrs would you pick to live in today? Which leader would you like to see again? Which Khalifa? If you are sold (more like offered) this system, this system that had been sold for 1400yrs, shouldn't you expect them to show you examples of this system working in the past? Elevating people's lives in the past? improving them?

Can the system that failed again and again (and again and again and again IMO), yet somehow, today, with you, it will finally get to work? You must be really blessed.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: confused
Reply #17 - November 07, 2008, 11:42 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on November 05, 2008, 11:19 PM
Hi Eddy. Welcome to the forum. You might run into Goldie if you stick around. He's a devout Muslim and gay as well. He drops in now and then. Nice bloke. Anyway make yourself at home and feel fee to ask questions.

wait, we have a devout gay muslim on the forum?

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

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Re: confused
Reply #18 - November 07, 2008, 12:11 PM

Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on November 07, 2008, 11:42 AM
Quote from: osmanthus on November 05, 2008, 11:19 PM
Hi Eddy. Welcome to the forum. You might run into Goldie if you stick around. He's a devout Muslim and gay as well. He drops in now and then. Nice bloke. Anyway make yourself at home and feel fee to ask questions.

wait, we have a devout gay muslim on the forum?

Yes, Goldie very interesting and cool person.
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Re: confused
Reply #19 - November 07, 2008, 12:26 PM

Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on November 07, 2008, 11:42 AM
Quote from: osmanthus on November 05, 2008, 11:19 PM
Hi Eddy. Welcome to the forum. You might run into Goldie if you stick around. He's a devout Muslim and gay as well. He drops in now and then. Nice bloke. Anyway make yourself at home and feel fee to ask questions.

wait, we have a devout gay muslim on the forum?

You want his phone number?

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Re: confused
Reply #20 - November 07, 2008, 07:50 PM

Quote
I am not quite sure about that. all those years i was told that religion was part of me and without of it i was nothing. now, when i try to convince myself that i dont need islam for the rest of my life, i just scare of it. i mean, i already felt that i am sinful because of being gay (but anyway i chose to live with this), but beside being gay, i cant dare to refuse islam.

Welcome to the forum

Thats quite a predicament ! On the one hand you are living with the belief that who you are, is somehow sinful - that must be a horrible feeling. On the other hand ,it seems that the only way to get over that feeling and to accept yourself is to turn away from your belief system and thus turning your back on your culture, history, society, family and friends... which must feel like being out alone in the cold, like freefalling with no safety net - thats how it felt to me.

I cant presume to tell you what to do - I can only advise you to do your research and to have courage, so whatever decision you make is not based on ignorance and fear.
Who you are is ok, you are not sinful by nature. You can still be connected to your past and to your society and accept that islam was a part of that, without having to believe in its tenets. And if you feel like you need to be connected to something spiritually, you can still have that without being a muslim.
Good luck.

feel free to come and chill out here any time you need to get away

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Re: confused
Reply #21 - November 07, 2008, 08:57 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on November 07, 2008, 12:26 PM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on November 07, 2008, 11:42 AM
Quote from: osmanthus on November 05, 2008, 11:19 PM
Hi Eddy. Welcome to the forum. You might run into Goldie if you stick around. He's a devout Muslim and gay as well. He drops in now and then. Nice bloke. Anyway make yourself at home and feel fee to ask questions.

wait, we have a devout gay muslim on the forum?

You want his phone number?

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Re: confused
Reply #22 - November 09, 2008, 08:49 PM

Quote from: Iris on November 07, 2008, 07:50 PM
Welcome to the forum
feel free to come and chill out here any time you need to get away

Quote from: sojournerlumus on November 06, 2008, 10:45 PM
Eddy, try and relax a bit, it helps the thinking.
Learn to live your life on your own terms. It's scary at first but if you want to find you way to your god there are many ways to do it.

thank you for your answers guys, they were really helpful to me.
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Re: confused
Reply #23 - November 09, 2008, 09:13 PM

Quote from: Baal on November 07, 2008, 08:27 AM
Quote from: Eddy on November 06, 2008, 10:27 PM
i didnt directly start to question islam because of the mistakes that affect people all around the islamic world...

Sorry to interrupt the thread a little. I have a question that I always pose to muslims and I am very curious what kind of an answer I would get from a Turk as I never asked One before. In the present days, it seems that we have a bunch of people who have 'the correct book' yet somehow, the more any society adopts that book, the closer they adopt it, the worse off their lives become.

It is as if this book is a curse when you consider it. As in, if you are unlucky enough to have this book implemented in your society, you are screwed. Screwed on every level possible. A total failure to compete. Even your terrorist will live in terror from the terrorists (armies) of other countries.

Of course, all around me, they were blaming america and england, and rarely Turkey (ottoman), even the French who were in Egypt for Three years get blamed. But really, why blame those who do not have the book.

If you were to pick a society, which society from the last 1400 yrs would you pick to live in today? Which leader would you like to see again? Which Khalifa? If you are sold (more like offered) this system, this system that had been sold for 1400yrs, shouldn't you expect them to show you examples of this system working in the past? Elevating people's lives in the past? improving them?

Can the system that failed again and again (and again and again and again IMO), yet somehow, today, with you, it will finally get to work? You must be really blessed.

i am sorry but i couldnt understand what you are really asking here. can you make it more clear?
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Re: confused
Reply #24 - November 09, 2008, 09:41 PM

By which I think Eddie means can you ask your question in a maximum of two short sentences rather than a doctoral thesis.

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Re: confused
Reply #25 - November 15, 2008, 03:06 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on November 09, 2008, 09:41 PM
By which I think Eddie means can you ask your question in a maximum of two short sentences rather than a doctoral thesis.

I think so too Os.

Eddy, which muslim ruler, of the last 1400yrs, would you like to bring back and why? If islam above all other religion owns the 'book'. And claims to be the last of the books. Then I would hope by now it would have had an illustrious list of achievements and leaders and ideas to offer us. So what leader do you want to bring back Eddy?

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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