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 Topic: A New member named elle

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  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #60 - November 06, 2008, 10:34 PM
    BerberElla, I did not want to start talking about a Caliphate at this juncture because it also involves discussing  Dar al-Harb and Dar al-Islam and that gets rather involved. I have tried to cover some of that in my article. As far as International Jihadism is concerned, I do believe that there are groups of people who are convinced that this is the way to go or we will not be having all the problems today.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #61 - November 06, 2008, 10:38 PM
    Yes there are groups that are convinced offensive jihad is the way to go. There are also groups that are convinced it is not necessary or desirable.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #62 - November 06, 2008, 10:39 PM
    osmanthus, I never take anything personally but only when I am accused of not knowing my what I am saying. I do not coin anything at a whim, it is always based on authenticated information. So anything that I have said can be backed up from other sources such as the Qur'an or other articles from learned authors.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #63 - November 06, 2008, 10:49 PM
    Yes but what people are pointing out is that there are a plethora of interpretations in Islam. This means that whatever authenticated source you bring up somebody, somewhere is likely to have an equally authenticated source which says something different.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #64 - November 06, 2008, 10:58 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 06, 2008, 10:39 PM
    osmanthus, I never take anything personally but only when I am accused of not knowing my what I am saying. I do not coin anything at a whim, it is always based on authenticated information. So anything that I have said can be backed up from other sources such as the Qur'an or other articles from learned authors.

    I know this is for Oz, but as an interested observer, and going back to your earlier observations about 'ambiguities', doesn't  that approach kind of let anybody with a certain agendum cherrypick the sources that are just somebody elses opinions anyway. One opinion is only as good as another, it's not as though we're talking about anything observable or measurable.
     If the whole thing is just a load of hooey from the old testament onwards, is there any value in any of this kind of discussion?
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #65 - November 07, 2008, 06:39 AM
    Quote
    If the whole thing is just a load of hooey from the old testament onwards, is there any value in any of this kind of discussion?


    In this case, yes there is, because its such an important issue in today's world and affects the way Muslims and non-Muslims interact with each other.

    Quote
    And that every Muslim knows his duties to Islam are to promote Islam and Jihad is the main route of promoting Islam. Is that not right?

    Certainly not!
    Elle, i think u should listen to what other people here have to say, as previously pointed out the issue is not black and white. Muslims dont generally take the quran out of context, there is a whole body of literature on quranic interpretation and on analysing the meaning and setting and circumstances behind each ayah. Most muslims would say that fighting is limited to particular times and particular circumstances and should not be indiscriminate but should be carefully considered.

    Also, jihad is not seen to be the main route of promoting Islam. When I was a muslim the verse most quoted was:

    16:125 Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.
    Life is a sexually transmitted disease which is invariably fatal.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #66 - November 07, 2008, 09:57 AM
    Iris, I cannot see that 16:125 contradicts:

    Qur'an:2:216     "Jihad (holy fighting in Allah's Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims), though you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not." [Another translation reads:] "Warfare is ordained for you."
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #67 - November 07, 2008, 10:02 AM
    So elle, what would you say you have learnt about how you view Muslims and Jihad, to how ex muslims view muslims and jihad?

    Because I have to be honest, you seem highly reluctant to recognise that your belief doesn't match the reality.  wacko

    Warfare is ordained, it is mandatory, but without a khalifa the muslims will not be united enough to do anything about that.  You won't get a khalifa because the muslim world is so fragmented.

    So unless all muslim nations are attacked by non muslims in what is an unmistakable attack on muslims, which would give every muslim, no matter what school of thought, justification for finally accepting that warfare is ordained for them, a global jihad just isn't likely to happen.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #68 - November 07, 2008, 10:17 AM
    Quote from: BerberElla on November 07, 2008, 10:02 AM

    So unless all muslim nations are attacked by non muslims in what is an unmistakable attack on muslims, which would give every muslim, no matter what school of thought, justification for finally accepting that warfare is ordained for them, a global jihad just isn't likely to happen.



     Afro Afro Afro
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #69 - November 07, 2008, 10:37 AM
    Quote from: elle on November 07, 2008, 09:57 AM
    Iris, I cannot see that 16:125 contradicts:

    Qur'an:2:216     "Jihad (holy fighting in Allah's Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims), though you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not." [Another translation reads:] "Warfare is ordained for you."

    K. So if 16:125 doesn't contradict 2:216 then by the same logic 2:216 doesn't contradict 16:125. 

    So Iris wins, right?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #70 - November 07, 2008, 10:45 AM
    Hello, I am not going to any value addition in the thread,

    Just to say, I like this site because ppl really know what is Islam and what it is not. They don't falsely accuse it as well. I like being impartial and honest.
    yeah, the board is cool  bunny
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #71 - November 07, 2008, 11:06 AM
    Osmanthus, I have no problem that Iris has scored. For me, it is not about scoring points, it is about discussing Islam and the intricacies of ies meanings and where it applies and where it does not and what abrogation has been applied that most people are either not aware of or are in denial about. Sure, Iris is right, after all I am only a newbie here and do not know very much.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #72 - November 07, 2008, 11:09 AM
    Learn2Bcalm thanks for believing that we know what we are talking about. As you can see most of us do not agree on much in Islam because it is so complex and complicated with abrogations and the way the Qur'an has been arranged.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #73 - November 07, 2008, 11:40 AM
    Quote from: BerberElla on November 07, 2008, 10:02 AM
    So elle, what would you say you have learnt about how you view Muslims and Jihad, to how ex muslims view muslims and jihad?

    Because I have to be honest, you seem highly reluctant to recognise that your belief doesn't match the reality.  wacko

    Warfare is ordained, it is mandatory, but without a khalifa the muslims will not be united enough to do anything about that.  You won't get a khalifa because the muslim world is so fragmented.

    So unless all muslim nations are attacked by non muslims in what is an unmistakable attack on muslims, which would give every muslim, no matter what school of thought, justification for finally accepting that warfare is ordained for them, a global jihad just isn't likely to happen.




    And this is coming from someone who really, really doesnt like Islam and is herself an ex-Muslim.


    you're not getting some sugar-coated version here Elle, none of the posters on this thread are Muslims (except for me, a self-described Master of Taqqiya and Kitman)
    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #74 - November 07, 2008, 11:41 AM
    Quote from: elle on November 06, 2008, 07:47 PM
    lumus, I believe that that is exactly what you cannot do in Islam. Either you accept the 6 pillars of Islam or you are not a Muslim? Yes or No?


    What??? Six pillars of Islam? You yourself don't even know the basics of Islam!
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #75 - November 07, 2008, 11:45 AM
    Why are we even tolerating this Christian missionary? she is going to use what we tell her on Muslims to convert them to the absurdities of Christianity. She should just be banned, this is an ex Muslim communist (somewhat) forum.
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #76 - November 07, 2008, 11:47 AM
    Quote from: elle on November 06, 2008, 08:31 PM
    Well apparently, I am not amusing to some people who are taking things very personally. I am discussing Islamic education on a general basis.


    I think you should just study education in general, from your posts you seem like you are lacking it.
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #77 - November 07, 2008, 12:16 PM
    And I think you should ease up on the trolling, Tutty boy.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #78 - November 07, 2008, 02:47 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on November 07, 2008, 10:02 AM
    So elle, what would you say you have learnt about how you view Muslims and Jihad, to how ex muslims view muslims and jihad?

    Because I have to be honest, you seem highly reluctant to recognise that your belief doesn't match the reality.  wacko

    Warfare is ordained, it is mandatory, but without a khalifa the muslims will not be united enough to do anything about that.  You won't get a khalifa because the muslim world is so fragmented.

    So unless all muslim nations are attacked by non muslims in what is an unmistakable attack on muslims, which would give every muslim, no matter what school of thought, justification for finally accepting that warfare is ordained for them, a global jihad just isn't likely to happen.



    Berbs? since when did islamist fighters wait for an order from a Khalifa to perform Kital? And in their mind, they are striving to get a Khalifa, how do you think they will strive without Kital? Does the koran teach them any other way? Even the very (very) few good verses are abrogated.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #79 - November 07, 2008, 02:53 PM
    Quote from: learn2bcalm on November 07, 2008, 10:45 AM
    Hello, I am not going to any value addition in the thread,

    Just to say, I like this site because ppl really know what is Islam and what it is not. They don't falsely accuse it as well. I like being impartial and honest.
    yeah, the board is cool  bunny



    On the whole yeah, and it is cool, if somewhat baffling for people like Elle.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #80 - November 07, 2008, 02:56 PM
    Quote from: King Tut on November 07, 2008, 11:45 AM
    Why are we even tolerating this Christian missionary? she is going to use what we tell her on Muslims to convert them to the absurdities of Christianity. She should just be banned, this is an ex Muslim communist (somewhat) forum.



    Stupid thing to say Tut.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #81 - November 07, 2008, 07:45 PM
    Who let Tut out of the Oubliette??  Roll Eyes

    The way I have come to understand it is that, yes, Jihad is a requirement for Muslims, when called for by some sort of "authentic" leader. The different Muslim sects don't agree on who would be this "authentic" persona, but some Muslims, the most extremists among them, call for Jihad at the behest of their own egotistic quest for domination over all people. It's kind of the difference between a military draft being issued as mandatory (like in the U.S. during the Vietnam war) versus small, armed militias that exist in various parts of the U.S. Since Muslims as a whole do not have an "authentic" leader they can agree on, a worldwide Jihad is only a possibility if such a leader was to show up and ALL muslims were undoubtedly convinced of this leader's authenticity. That would be hard considering the racial, ethnic, cultural and sectarian divisions that run DEEP within all Muslim communities.

    In essence, as BerberElla so eloquently said: "unless all muslim nations are attacked by non muslims in what is an unmistakable attack on muslims, which would give every muslim, no matter what school of thought, justification for finally accepting that warfare is ordained for them, a global jihad just isn't likely to happen."

    Nothing unites Muslims more than being ostracised, invaded, occupied, unjustly imprisoned, discriminated against, harassed, tortured, bombed-on and killed. If anything, the policies of Bush/Cheney and Co. have done more to unify Muslim ideology than to break it up.

    Yes the Quran and the Hadiths have awful, ridiculous portions. Just like the Bible, and most of the rest of the world's spiritual books written more than a couple of decades ago. That's because the world changes and these texts don't. It is up to the people, Muslims and otherwise, of TODAY to RE-INTERPRET and RE-FORM their institutions of faith. If we really want peace, then we should be working towards inspiring Muslims (and everyone else) to become better, not just whacking them over and over and expecting them to just change. It takes time... it takes generations. But it has to start somewhere. Change happens... whether you and I get used to it or not.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #82 - November 07, 2008, 08:42 PM
    Good post allat.  Afro
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #83 - November 07, 2008, 08:54 PM
    allat, same predicament posed by Berberella, where does it state that muslims need an authentic leader? One of the issue with islam is it is functioning without an authentic leader. Islam states that there is no intercession between a muslim and his god. where does this leader thing come from. Stop saying strange things just to make a point.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #84 - November 07, 2008, 09:00 PM
    Baal, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. This is the political leader. Of course Islam can function without him. But Jihad cannot be declared, which is the point.
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #85 - November 07, 2008, 10:07 PM
    But Islam already has an authentic leader who has already declared his Jihad. I do not understand how you ex-Muslims have missed it? His name is Mohammed the Prophet and his commands are all tabulated in the Koran. Is that not so, or have I missed the point?

    BTW, I am starting to edit and update my Knol, allow a few more days. I will attempt to clarify this confusion about Jihad and the 6 pillars of Islam.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #86 - November 07, 2008, 10:13 PM
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #87 - November 07, 2008, 10:22 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 07, 2008, 10:07 PM
    But Islam already has an authentic leader who has already declared his Jihad. I do not understand how you ex-Muslims have missed it? His name is Mohammed the Prophet and his commands are all tabulated in the Koran. Is that not so, or have I missed the point?

    BTW, I am starting to edit and update my Knol, allow a few more days. I will attempt to clarify this confusion about Jihad and the 6 pillars of Islam.


    One of the requirements for Caliph is that the he must actually be living.  The leader being referred to is not a prophet or a founder of Islam, but the current leader of the Islamic state, which no longer exists.

    Regards,
    Gonzo
    "The spread of evil is the symptom of a vacuum. Whenever evil wins, it is only by default: by the moral failure of those who evade the fact that there can be no compromise on basic principles" - Ayn Rand
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #88 - November 07, 2008, 10:31 PM
    Quote from: awais.x on November 07, 2008, 09:00 PM
    Baal, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

    I expect an apology for this statement. I am also still waiting on an apology/explanation for the third finger salute from few weeks back.

    Quote from: awais.x on November 07, 2008, 09:00 PM
    This is the political leader. Of course Islam can function without him. But Jihad cannot be declared, which is the point.

    Political leader? what is a political leader? what did the koran know of a political leader? Yes, islam can function without a political leader. Islam does function without him. And for this statement of yours about some 'political leader', you Awais came riding a high horse telling me i do not know what the fvck in am talking about. Also in the future I would be more careful when you address me about matters of islam. In the balance of probability on any given conversation, you stand to learn more from me about islam than most people you met in your life so far, and that includes most of the sheikhs and imams you came in contact with. Never forget that I spent many more years then you studying islam as it truly is, not as I wanted it to be.


    In islam there is no intercession between the worshipper and the worshippee. In the absense of this 'leader - khalifa', the muslim can still function and islam can still function and executre the commands of the koran.


    I am also going to suggest to you that, when you claim that only some leader/khalifa can call a jihad, then you are really implying an impossible scenario. You are implying the scenario that killing the last khalifa will disable the jihad. How else do you think they will try to re-establish another khalifa? by whispering sweet nothing? By arguing by what is better?


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #89 - November 07, 2008, 10:37 PM
    Quote from: gonzo on November 07, 2008, 10:22 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 07, 2008, 10:07 PM
    But Islam already has an authentic leader who has already declared his Jihad. I do not understand how you ex-Muslims have missed it? His name is Mohammed the Prophet and his commands are all tabulated in the Koran. Is that not so, or have I missed the point?

    BTW, I am starting to edit and update my Knol, allow a few more days. I will attempt to clarify this confusion about Jihad and the 6 pillars of Islam.


    One of the requirements for Caliph is that the he must actually be living.  The leader being referred to is not a prophet or a founder of Islam, but the current leader of the Islamic state, which no longer exists.

    Regards,
    Gonzo

    No gonzo, with all my love and respect but still a solid no. A dead Khalifa is still a Khalifa. His edicts and his fatwa are still in effect until abrogated. And the fatwa of a better khalifa, can not be abrogated by a lesser khalifa. Now what constitutes a greater or a lesser khalifa is in the eyes of the believer. The believer gets to pick and choose which Khalifa to believe.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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