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Theme Changer

 Topic: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.

 (Read 10068 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     OP - November 07, 2008, 04:49 PM

    Hi there.

    I've been talking to a Muslim who insists that non-Muslim arabic speaker think the Qu'ran is a peerless literary achievement.  Not speaking arabic myself, I'm not really sure how to find out if this is true - although I heavily suspect his belief the Qu'ran is the word of God is rather guiding his critical judgements.

    Any guidance, links or advice would be appreciated.

    Sorry to drag you in to one of my own discussions, but hearing your views of the literary merits of the Qu'ran was likely to be helpful.

    gf
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #1 - November 07, 2008, 04:59 PM

    There are arabic christians who like to point out that there are grammatical errors in the Qur'an, I'll look for a link for you. But I really can't expound on it, because I myself am not fluent. From my own study I have seen that the Qur'an has much foreign influence, esp. Greek.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #2 - November 07, 2008, 06:22 PM

    I've been talking to a Muslim who insists that non-Muslim arabic speaker think the Qu'ran is a peerless literary achievement.  Not speaking arabic myself, I'm not really sure how to find out if this is true - although I heavily suspect his belief the Qu'ran is the word of God is rather guiding his critical judgements.

    If you talk to more objective readers, they'll tell you that it is rather crappy - besides the grammar mistakes ("he spoke we", "we was there" type mistakes); the fact that certain sections don't actually make any sense at all and can't even be translated, it is poorly written,rambling, repetitive and jumps about the place a lot.  Baal here will be able to give you some insight.  Al Razi (who posts mostly over at Dawkin's site) can give you some insight too - he's posted some verses from the Qur'an he invented here if you search. 
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #3 - November 07, 2008, 06:23 PM

    A boring, repetitive book, with a total disregard to logical conjunctions and to prepositions. It relies on the fact that Arabic words can only have a small finite numbers of ending syllables, and it uses that to make entire sentences with almost each word ending in 'a', or 'een'. Just like Pig Latin where every word ends in 'a'.

    The person that belief that the book is perfect, is just like his belief that allah exists, just a belief. he never read the book properly and never saw allah.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #4 - November 07, 2008, 09:35 PM

    Whatever perfection embodied by the Qur'an it is composite in the juncture at which those words could be reified. Salafists cannot escape that, nor can anyone else.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #5 - November 08, 2008, 02:32 PM

    Thanks for your comments.

    I've been unable to find Al Razi's posts - the search function here seems broken, or else I'm doing somthing wrong.

    A lot of Muslims seem impressed by the claim that no-one is able to produce anything similar to the Qu'ran, but I cann't understand why they give the claim such weight, or exepect others to be impressed by it.  Any examples of work that is thought to pass this 'test' would be of interest.

    Ta.
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #6 - November 08, 2008, 02:50 PM

    A lot of Muslims seem impressed by the claim that no-one is able to produce anything similar to the Qu'ran, but I cann't understand why they give the claim such weight, or exepect others to be impressed by it.  Any examples of work that is thought to pass this 'test' would be of interest.

    Ta.

    Al Razi does it on this site, actually.

    Besides that Muslims also believe that Shaitan did it with the "satanic verses", which even fooled Muhammad. 

    In reality however, the test is unpassable because (some) Muslims know the Qur'an off by heart, so if you say something that is different to that, they'll be able to spot it and by definition it is "not as good".   

    Some of Al Razi's stuff:
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/weaponstestingrange/index.php/topic,2907.0.html
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #7 - November 09, 2008, 11:52 AM

    Thanks for the link.  For some reason I wasn't able to use the search function of this forum.

    The Muslim I'm chatting to says all Muslims would give up there faith were there to be a single passage that a consensus of non-Muslim arabic speakers thought was in the style of the Qu'ran.  Which is a rather bold claim - if one that would be practically impossible to meet.

    My own inability to speak arabic rather limits our conversation though.

    ta.
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #8 - November 09, 2008, 02:20 PM

    These are some of the problems with the Qur'an (and Islam in general) that caused me to lose my faith. It's a work in progress, some points are just written down to be expanded upon later.

    http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dfh45gk4_15dgzc78wk

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #9 - November 09, 2008, 11:03 PM

    Simply take some random passage of the Qur’ân, correct the grammatical inconsistencies, and hey tight shoe! I mean hey press–toe! I mean presto, you’ll have a superior version in a Qur’ânic style.

    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #10 - November 12, 2008, 07:31 PM

    These are some of the problems with the Qur'an (and Islam in general) that caused me to lose my faith. It's a work in progress, some points are just written down to be expanded upon later.

    http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dfh45gk4_15dgzc78wk


    Thankyou, your page was useful.
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #11 - November 12, 2008, 07:47 PM

    Hi there.

    I've been talking to a Muslim who insists that non-Muslim arabic speaker think the Qu'ran is a peerless literary achievement.  Not speaking arabic myself, I'm not really sure how to find out if this is true - although I heavily suspect his belief the Qu'ran is the word of God is rather guiding his critical judgements.

    Any guidance, links or advice would be appreciated.

    Sorry to drag you in to one of my own discussions, but hearing your views of the literary merits of the Qu'ran was likely to be helpful.

    gf


    Judgments about the literary worth of the Qur'an are subjective and depend one's perspective.
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #12 - November 14, 2008, 07:14 PM

    In the spirit of fairness, the following website discusses in-depth the nature of the quran and why it is considered to be, by many, a miracle:

    http://www.theinimitablequran.com/

    I haven't read the site in much depth - but it comes highly reccomended by freinds.

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #13 - November 14, 2008, 08:20 PM

    In the spirit of fairness, the following website discusses in-depth the nature of the quran and why it is considered to be, by many, a miracle:

    http://www.theinimitablequran.com/

    I haven't read the site in much depth - but it comes highly reccomended by freinds.

    High recommendations often come from people who agree with the content yet also never read it. Just like you are doing now :(

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #14 - November 15, 2008, 12:53 AM

    Rational1 has an amusing story about a similar ‘recommendation’…

    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #15 - November 15, 2008, 01:23 AM

    Rational1 has an amusing story about a similar ‘recommendation’…

    Haha, yes we're all laughing about that now, but it was excruciating at the time. Before I left Kuwait I decided to test the waters with one of my friends in "outing" myself by first telling her I planned to stop wearing hijab. She then sent me emails begging me to reconsider (and even got other people involved -- a full intervention!), and included two links to websites her sister in law had recommended. She hadn't read them, and it turns out they completely contradicted each other! I called her on it but she just made excuses.

    You can read the full (and quite lengthy) story in the archives: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/weaponstestingrange/index.php/topic,2726.0.html

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #16 - November 15, 2008, 01:16 PM

    In the spirit of fairness, the following website discusses in-depth the nature of the quran and why it is considered to be, by many, a miracle:

    http://www.theinimitablequran.com/

    I haven't read the site in much depth - but it comes highly reccomended by freinds.

    High recommendations often come from people who agree with the content yet also never read it. Just like you are doing now :(


    That is a fair enough point Bal. But I am sure you must have reccomended a book/film etc to based on the reccomendations of another.

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #17 - November 15, 2008, 02:58 PM

    From the link:

    "Muhammad, for all his greatness, was still an Arab like his brethren. It is also a matter of fact that the Prophet Muhammad was never accused of authoring the Qur’an by his contemporaries, even those who sought his death and ruin. Furthermore the hadith(recorded narrations attributed to the Prophet) are in a totally different style to the Qur'an. How can any man speak with two distinct styles over a 23 year period?

    The only rational answer left is the Creator."


    Does anyone else see something irrational about the the 'rational' conclusion?  Cheesy

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #18 - November 15, 2008, 10:17 PM

    Quote
    Does anyone else see something 'rational' about the the irrational conclusion?


    Fixed it for you. dance

    Indeed, the 'logic' is appallingly bad. For a start there is one glaring falsehood to deal with, in that several people did in fact accuse Mohammed of making it all up. Some of them were murdered by him for it. In fact you could very well argue that everyone who did not convert to Islam of their own free will probably thought Mohammed was making it all up.

    As for the ahadith, they are always stated to be about things Mohammed said or did as narrated by other people. With this in mind, the fact that they may differ somewhat in style from the Quran is not exactly astonishing. I wonder why anyone would think it was.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #19 - November 15, 2008, 11:45 PM

    Added to all that, if someone's writing style doesn't change over the course of 23 years, then they are an appallingly limited writer.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #20 - November 16, 2008, 12:05 AM

    Also, not even poets speak in poetry when they're just ordering coffee and hanging out with friends.

    Though it has no bridge,
    The cloud climbs up to heaven;
    It does not seek the aid
    Of Gautama's sutras.

    - Ikkyu
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #21 - November 16, 2008, 02:18 AM

    From the link:

    "Muhammad, for all his greatness, was still an Arab like his brethren. It is also a matter of fact that the Prophet Muhammad was never accused of authoring the Qur’an by his contemporaries, even those who sought his death and ruin. Furthermore the hadith(recorded narrations attributed to the Prophet) are in a totally different style to the Qur'an. How can any man speak with two distinct styles over a 23 year period?

    The only rational answer left is the Creator."


    Does anyone else see something irrational about the the 'rational' conclusion?  Cheesy

    Hassan1, do you agree with the writer that muhammad was never accused of authoring the koran by his contemporaries?

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #22 - November 17, 2008, 12:51 PM

    Quote
    Does anyone else see something 'rational' about the the irrational conclusion?


    Fixed it for you. dance

    Indeed, the 'logic' is appallingly bad. For a start there is one glaring falsehood to deal with, in that several people did in fact accuse Mohammed of making it all up. Some of them were murdered by him for it. In fact you could very well argue that everyone who did not convert to Islam of their own free will probably thought Mohammed was making it all up.

    As for the ahadith, they are always stated to be about things Mohammed said or did as narrated by other people. With this in mind, the fact that they may differ somewhat in style from the Quran is not exactly astonishing. I wonder why anyone would think it was.


    Hello Osmanthus,

    I am not familiar with the italicised. Could you please a source for further reading?

    Thanks,

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #23 - November 17, 2008, 01:02 PM

    For a start there is one glaring falsehood to deal with, in that several people did in fact accuse Mohammed of making it all up. Some of them were murdered by him for it.

    I am not familiar with the italicised. Could you please a source for further reading?


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Afak

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asma_bint_Marwan

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ka%27b_ibn_al-Ashraf

    There's another one who just barely got away, Uthman's brother I think. Can't find it yet.

    (edit: found him)

    This guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdallah_ibn_al-Sa%E2%80%99ad

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #24 - November 18, 2008, 11:46 AM

    There you go. As for the other, short italicised portion (ie: as narrated by other people ) surely you're aware, Hassan1, that the adahith were passed down via chains of narrators before being written down and compiled.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #25 - January 01, 2009, 05:20 PM

    Being a non-Arabic speaker what blew it for me was reading Turan Dursun's page on Verses Where Mohammed Himself Addresses.

    Quote
    Consider sura Hud (number 11), verse 2 :

    Ye should worship none but Allah. Truly I am sent unto you from Him to warn and to bring glad tiding

    Quote
    A similar case can also be seen in Sura Az-Zahriyat's [Sura 51] 50th and 51st verses:

    50. Therefore flee unto Allah: I am from Him a Warner to you, clear and open!

    51. And make not another an object of worship with Allah: I am from Him a Warner to you, clear and open

    Usually the verses telling Muhammad (peace be upon him) to say something begin with the exhortation "Say" but in these cases it doesn't. I checked it out in the translations I have in my bookshelf and they don't say "Say." Furthermore, there is no explanation given - even in those commentaries which are full of footnotes.

    Muhammad Asad puts [Say] in parentheses. I like Muhammad Asad, but it's interesting that he just chucked it in parentheses. And he didn't put a footnote as he often does to explain it. He clearly noticed but ignored it.

    Someone asked this question to the IslamOnline Shariah Researchers but they too seem not to have noticed the ommision of "Say".



    Edited to remove yellow text.

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #26 - January 02, 2009, 02:42 AM

    Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3
    ...The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read."...


    Quote from: al-Qur'an, Surah 96: al-'Alaq
    1. Read! In the name of your Lord who created
    2. Created man from a clot
    3. Read and your Lord is The Most Honorable
    4. Who taught by the pen
    5. Taught man what he didn't know.


    Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 7, Book 70, Number 573
    Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

    When Allah's Apostle was on his death-bed and in the house there were some people among whom was 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, the Prophet said, "Come, let me write for you a statement after which you will not go astray." 'Umar said, "The Prophet is seriously ill and you have the Qur'an; so the Book of Allah is enough for us." The people present in the house differed and quarrelled. Some said "Go near so that the Prophet may write for you a statement after which you will not go astray," while the others said as Umar said. When they caused a hue and cry before the Prophet, Allah's Apostle said, "Go away!"

    Narrated 'Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was very unfortunate that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise."


    Quote from: and Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 717
    Narrated Ubaidullah bin 'Abdullah:

    Ibn Abbas said, "When Allah's Apostle was on his deathbed and there were some men in the house, he said, 'Come near, I will write for you something after which you will not go astray.' Some of them ( i.e. his companions) said, 'Allah's Apostle is seriously ill and you have the (Holy) Quran. Allah's Book is sufficient for us.' So the people in the house differed and started disputing. Some of them said, 'Give him writing material so that he may write for you something after which you will not go astray.' while the others said the other way round. So when their talk and differences increased, Allah's Apostle said, "Get up." Ibn Abbas used to say, "No doubt, it was very unfortunate (a great disaster) that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing for them that writing because of their differences and noise."


    I cannot find any primary sources on it, but I've heard numerous times recounting at the mercy of the Muslims at war, and their eagerness towards knowledge, was that the ransom for prisoners of war (The Battle of Badr) was that they teach 10 Muslims to read and write. Why couldn't/shouldn't have Muhammad taken advantage of such and opportunity to obey the command of his Lord ("Read!")?

    Of course I will expand more on this later, i''a.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #27 - January 02, 2009, 06:25 AM

    Quote
    Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

    When Allah's Apostle was on his death-bed and in the house there were some people among whom was 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, the Prophet said, "Come, let me write for you a statement after which you will not go astray." 'Umar said, "The Prophet is seriously ill and you have the Qur'an; so the Book of Allah is enough for us." The people present in the house differed and quarrelled. Some said "Go near so that the Prophet may write for you a statement after which you will not go astray," while the others said as Umar said. When they caused a hue and cry before the Prophet, Allah's Apostle said, "Go away!"

    Narrated 'Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was very unfortunate that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise."


    Awais Shia muslims believe that hadith indicates that the prophet was going to write a will nominating Ali ibn abi Talib as his successor, and that Omar deliberately stopped him from doing so because he did not want him coming to power. In fact the hadith is pivotal to their claim.

    Life is a sexually transmitted disease which is invariably fatal.
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #28 - January 02, 2009, 07:06 AM

    Fuck that Omar was a nasty piece of work. He beat up his sister and brother in law, he used to beat his 'slavegirl' because she became a Muslim [1], he allegedly burned down Muhammad's daughter's joint [2], and he was keen to decapitate a mentally ill youth who claimed he was the Messenger of Allah [3]. He was a thug before Islam and he was a thug after Islam. His son used to make his slavegirls wash his feet for wudhu while they were menstruating [4]. As Muhammad is reported to have said, "People are like mines of gold and silver. Those of them who are best before Islam are best in Islam, if they understand..." (Bukhari and Muslim).

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: The literary perfection of the Qu'ran.
     Reply #29 - January 02, 2009, 09:47 AM

    Awais Shia muslims believe that hadith indicates that the prophet was going to write a will nominating Ali ibn abi Talib as his successor, and that Omar deliberately stopped him from doing so because he did not want him coming to power. In fact the hadith is pivotal to their claim.


    I know, but still, that hadith is disturbing to sunni sensibilities.

    1. Muhammad could write. This will be blow to many muslims Eemaan, destroying the miracle of the Qur'an coming from an illiterate.

    2. Muhammad's companions disobeyed him, prevented him from writing his will. I've heard the excuse "because Muhammad was delirious". Hasn't he been accused of being delirious before?

    Quote from: al-Qur'an, Surah an-Najm 53:3-4
    He (Muhammad) does not speak from desire. It is only revelation revealed.


    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
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