Actually, Sparky that's not what I said. I said it is counter-productive to insist that everything in Islam is bad and evil as the implication any Muslim will read into that is that they are bad/evil and so will simply close up and not listen.
Fine. I don't insist that everything in Islam is bad and evil. Even if it was, it would be illogical for a muslim to conclude that they are bad/evil. But just like you and me, anyone who has their fundamental beliefs challenged will have a tendancy to close up.
I should also add that the presence of Christians who on the one hand want to demolish Islams irrational beliefs while at the same time defend their own irrational beliefs on an Ex-Muslim site is also a huge turn away to any doubting Muslim.
Is this a dig at me or the Christians on FFI? Either way, I don't consider your opinions on my beliefs to be the defining view of whether they are irrational or not - especially at a site that shares a platform with communists. And, once again, you are not all muslims.
As for FFI I doubt that it has had a very big effect on Muslims - at least as not as big as it should have. I personally know there are lots of Muslims who have loads of doubts - I was talking to one on the phone yesterday and this is when I thought about all this - if one wanted to really encourage Muslims to leave Islam it really shouldn't be that hard - if it was done intelligently and with real empathy and understanding of where they're coming from - as there are loads with doubts - but it is done so stupidly and without any real empathy.
The idea of a forum where ex-Muslims debate Muslims is an excellent one. But in reality you mostly have people who have never-been Muslim and only have lopsided knowledge of Islam and who have an axe to grind. My own experience with FFI was that it delayed my leaving Islam. I came there wanting to discuss my doubts intelligently with REAL ex-Muslims. All I got were people who knew nothing or very little about the reality of ordinary every-day Muslims and many who were outright haters. I ended up forced into the position of having to argue against the ignorance, bigotry and hatred on that site - instead of discussing the things in Islam that really troubled me.
A real Muslim can spot someone who really understand them and a fake a mile off. So there is no point in even pretending. Only genuine empathy and real understanding will make a Muslim feel comfortable enough to open up.
I don't disagree at all. I haven't been on FFI for a while but I didn't find that the posters there were uniformly unintelligent or lacking empathy. At the same time, I did feel that the overall environment was hostile and unlikely to attract many muslims - and I said so at the time.
If anything - ummah.com - the staunch Muslim/Salafi forum - did more to help me leave Islam,, because they forced me into the position of trying to argue against the very traditional and orthodox views. The result was that it only highlighted to me the futility of the liberal and moderate views I was putting forward. They were demolished by the traditionalists. I was forced to conclude that my nice liberal views were weak - and that I either had to accept the harsh traditional views or reject Islam.
Which is your experience. What I tended to see on FFI was that it was influential with more nominal, Westernised muslims who did not have well-formed theological views but responded to having revealed to them what was contained in Islam's core texts - such as 4:34 and Mohammed's behaviour. That doesn't sound like you.
Cheers,
sparky
Topic: Just a Thought