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 Topic: Conservative or liberal

 (Read 39224 times)
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  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #60 - September 26, 2014, 11:40 AM

    The Welfare state is necessarily a bad thing. It is in unfair distribution of wealth. Imagine a society where 20% of people work and 80% simply cannot be bothered. Those 80% can easily vote-in governments to do their bidding, which for instance would be to take from the workers and give to the leechers.

    This is a huge problem with modern democracy; the idea that every individual has an equal vote even though the contribution is not equal. Power is generally self-regulating in any society as those who perform best acheive the most power. Therefore, they should have the larger say in how things are run.

    What we have now in the West is huge income disparity and huge governments with greater power. The governments use this power to promote the interests of their friends in big business. BUT, it is not big business, or the powerful, that have given the governments this much power. It is the weak, and weak-minded, those weak-minded people who believe in greater socialism/liberalism (nhs, increased government conrol and taxes) that ultimately weaken the most important part of society, the (upper) Middle Classes, lets say those earning 50K to 150K.

    Society is being run by the top 1%-5% with help from the lowest 20%-30%.

    Middle Class squeeze anyone?
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #61 - September 26, 2014, 11:57 AM

    Right is right, hence the name, and the left is a but perverted if you ask me. All great powers that arose inc America, The British Empire, Europe, Rome, Greece, Persia, arose with culture that we today would call Right-leaning. Leftism is anti-civilizational, it simply does not work. Why? Because reality trumps idealism and the left is driven now by a type of "Equality/Welfare" idealism which usually manifests in the young, and inexperienced, idealists.
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #62 - September 26, 2014, 11:57 AM

    Ah, yes. True words of wisdom that will be relevant forever. And especially so since you say it's attached to Churchill. There's no reason why we shouldn't take the social opinions of a successful old white guy who was born in the 1800's seriously in 2014, right?

    Americans are weird on race. Since he supposedly had native American blood, would he be considered white if true? I still scratch my head at Obama being called black when he's a clearly mixed race man who was born to and raised primarily by his white mother.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #63 - September 26, 2014, 11:59 AM

    Yeah this place is going to be Liberal City, sister.

    Most people here are under 30.


    As a young man in his mid twenties you'll be happy to know I have some very conservative leanings. However I also have very liberal leanings, hence my earlier post.

    I'm either a very liberal conservative or a very conservative liberal.


     Wink

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #64 - September 26, 2014, 12:02 PM

    toor,

    Though I am currently unable to find a record of the particular incident I mentioned, I did come across even more damning evidence of Karl Marx blatant hypocricy.

    Marx lived on an allowance made to him by Friedrich Engels.  Engels made his vast wealth as a mill owner.  Marx therefore lived on the backs of the poorly paid workers in Engels sweat shops.

    Marx had a privileged background, and never personally knew any working class people.  The one exception to this was his maid, Helen Demuth, who he sexually abused.  Demuth became pregnant and bore Marx a son, though he refused to accept responsibility for the child.

    He was abusive and disloyal to his wife, and had the most terrible temper.  Marx also enjoyed the sport of making uneducated working class people look stupid, and was known to be a mean and abusive man.

    I feel sure that if I dig around long enough, I will come across the incident I mentioned in a previous post.  It was something I read in college, though I have no idea of the source.

    Kind Regards,
    Stephen.
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #65 - September 26, 2014, 12:05 PM

    mubs_352, you're like a badly written parody of a conservative. Everything you say is a cliche.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #66 - September 26, 2014, 12:11 PM

    It is interesting that in America, many of both the right and left wings hold anti-scientific views.
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #67 - September 26, 2014, 12:12 PM

    In America, science continues in spite of wider society, not because of it.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #68 - September 26, 2014, 12:44 PM

    Americans are weird on race. Since he supposedly had native American blood, would he be considered white if true? I still scratch my head at Obama being called black when he's a clearly mixed race man who was born to and raised primarily by his white mother.


    The unfortunate thing about the states in my experience is less about what you identify as, and more about what people observe. We still haven't evened out the playing field round these parts, and people who appear to be white tend to have totally different experiences than other races, which erroneously leaves lot of white people here insisting that race isn't really an issue anymore.

    I'm pretty sure that white was also the color to be in Churchill's day and place. I tend not to believe that most of us have a fair appreciation of the struggles of the minorities and the oppressed. Same with people who, like Churchill, had a decent start, so besides finding apostate's quote silly, I find it even sillier if that's the source.

    Edit: Didn't really answer your question, oops. But yes, if you look white, but you're a mixed race, you're probably going to have the standard white person in America experiences. If you're mixed and appear black, you will probably have to contend with some issues along the way here, regardless of how you identify yourself, and the vast majority will just stick to easy labeling without asking about your family tree.
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #69 - September 26, 2014, 01:02 PM

    You're looking at it from an American perspective, outside America this isn't the case. I'm from an Irish family and have relatives alive today who remember when the Irish were considered to be a separate race and, as is often the case in these situations, an inferior race. I'm talking signs outside hotels saying no Irish allowed, turned down or kicked out of jobs, violent attacks for being Irish and a common socially accepted rampant discrimination. Being a small child with an Irish background with the IRA in swing there was also this collective guilt that is apparent in todays climate with muslims as a whole in regards to islamic terrorism. Of course, I actually do have family who were in the IRA, so there's that. Grin

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #70 - September 26, 2014, 01:07 PM

    Well, we weren't always number one fans out the Irish, either. Grin If you think that our man in question would have done just as well if he were another race, alright, though he still has being born ages ago and being born to wealth and status as working against his authority on the necessity for social services today.
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #71 - September 26, 2014, 01:11 PM

    I never said he would of done just as well, it was just a random thought that came into my head. Besides, he wouldn't have to be white, he'd have to be straight, white and English. Afro

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #72 - September 26, 2014, 01:13 PM

    I gotcha. And yes, I forgot about the straight thing. Grin
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #73 - September 26, 2014, 01:15 PM

    Thinking about it I'm feeling curious enough to look into British/English history regarding racial attitudes. Happily I don't think we were ever as bad as you fucking yanks, though further research may turn some things up.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #74 - September 26, 2014, 01:35 PM

    Grin Are we related?

    lol…maybe in another dimension. im guessing you have more irl experience with the faux news crowd Grin
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #75 - September 26, 2014, 01:39 PM

    @mubs

    most western countries are welfare states…they seem to be doing fine. the usa is the most neoliberal and the least welfare state-y and has very high income INequality among other issues. once again, you are wrong.

    i must ask…are you for real, or is this just a persistent troll?
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #76 - September 26, 2014, 01:39 PM

    .
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #77 - September 26, 2014, 01:46 PM

    @mubs

    most western countries are welfare states…they seem to be doing fine. the usa is the most neoliberal and the least welfare state-y and has very high income equality among other issues. once again, you are wrong.

    i must ask…are you for real, or is this just a persistent troll?


    Yes, good point, the US is both very Liberal but doesnt have much of a welfare state. I suppose the welfare state is something related to Liberalism, but not necessarily ever-present. I am not sure about your assertion on US income equality though.
  • Re: Conservative or liberal
     Reply #78 - September 26, 2014, 01:53 PM

    toor,

    Though I am currently unable to find a record of the particular incident I mentioned,



    Because it doesn't exist.

    I did come across even more damning evidence of Karl Marx blatant hypocricy.

    Marx lived on an allowance made to him by Friedrich Engels.  Engels made his vast wealth as a mill owner.  Marx therefore lived on the backs of the poorly paid workers in Engels sweat shops.



    As do you, and as do I. My cultural riches originate from surplus value imported from the periphery. See Zak cope (2012) for an assessment of how capitalism has functioned in the centre. This being the export, pre-monopolistic era, of course. Unless you propose that Marx should have just been left to wither away in chronic poverty and not contribute anything of substantial worth.

    But let's take your point at face value. How does this invalidate his theoretical contributions? Can you extemporise about aufheben? Can you talk about the distinction between the modes and means of production? Can you talk about the inherent antinomies of the acceleration of the productive forces? Can you speak of the negation of the revolutionary event and its negation? No. Thought not. How do you propose to replace the contradiction between surplus value and capital? Underconsumption? Tendency of the rate of profit to fall? Unequal exchange?


    Marx had a privileged background, and never personally knew any working class people.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Workingmen%27s_Association

    Oh, come off it now. You honestly think Marx had no correspondences with the paris commune? You think him and Engels had nothing to say about its downfall?

     The one exception to this was his maid, Helen Demuth, who he sexually abused.  Demuth became pregnant and bore Marx a son, though he refused to accept responsibility for the child.

    He was abusive and disloyal to his wife, and had the most terrible temper.  Marx also enjoyed the sport of making uneducated working class people look stupid, and was known to be a mean and abusive man.

    I feel sure that if I dig around long enough, I will come across the incident I mentioned in a previous post.  It was something I read in college, though I have no idea of the source.

    Kind Regards,
    Stephen.


    None of this is remotely true. There is no decisive/conclusive evidence from the time to suggest the boy was indeed Marx's son, (see Cambridge companion to Marx, 1991) and Karl and Jenny Marx's amicable relationship has been well documented.

    Marx was somewhat arrogant and polemically ferocious in the delivery of his points, I'll concede, but you need to remember that he was a man of his time, not someone who'd grown up during the post-war era. Anyone who claims Marx should have been an inerrant God (like yourself) is taking a thoroughly unmaterialistic and wholly metaphysical position.
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #79 - September 26, 2014, 01:55 PM

    mubs, would you prefer social Darwinism?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #80 - September 26, 2014, 01:55 PM


    Yes, good point, the US is both very Liberal but doesnt have much of a welfare state. I suppose the welfare state is something related to Liberalism, but not necessarily ever-present. I am not sure about your assertion on US income equality though.


    the us is not very liberal…unless you mean neoliberal. my point is that the welfare state is not necessarily a bad thing…the us has more poverty, more income inequality and hence a smaller middle class and a bigger underclass than those awful euro welfare states. you seem to have this bizarre notion that the welfare state destroys the middle class and civilisation as a whole.

    http://www.oecd.org/berlin/47570121.pdf
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #81 - September 26, 2014, 02:35 PM

    Also, mods, you might want to consider banning Stephen if he fails to cite a source for Marx sexually abusing Helene Demuth..

    Claiming that sexual abuse took place (with references) is one thing, but making false allegations is lower than low. Many of our female members might feel uncomfortable with someone who can randomly accuse people of sexual abuse when it doesn't suit his ideology. These sorts of claims should never be trivialised.
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #82 - September 26, 2014, 02:43 PM

    @mubs

    most western countries are welfare states…they seem to be doing fine. the usa is the most neoliberal and the least welfare state-y and has very high income equality among other issues. once again, you are wrong.

    i must ask…are you for real, or is this just a persistent troll?


    high income INequality, you must mean?

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #83 - September 26, 2014, 02:55 PM

    woops, yeah…that was a typo.
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #84 - September 26, 2014, 03:07 PM

    Was Marx something great? What successes have his works lead to?

     I am not too familiar with his work but rate him alongside the likes of Einstein and Freud as overrated and vacuous frauds, more interested in fame than accomplishment.
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #85 - September 26, 2014, 03:15 PM

    I'd advise you to read and decide for yourself. My personal opinion won't much matter to you, as yours won't to me.

    You know, since we're authoritarian and stuff, we don't allow people to come to their own conclusions etc. Totally.
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #86 - September 26, 2014, 03:17 PM

    Libertarian socialist

    isnt that an oxymoron? libertarians are for small government…socialists are the ultimate statists.

    No - socialism based on direct democracy rather than state control - which is what 'libertarian' was usually taken to mean before the term was borrowed by mad right wing Americans.
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #87 - September 26, 2014, 03:25 PM


    most western countries are welfare states…they seem to be doing fine.


    Im not sure they are doing "fine". They have ridden a wave of success but that seems to be ending now.  Future successes will be hard-won.

    Quote

    Investors seem to be saying, in how they place their money, that the UK's and USA's current reasonably rapid growth will turn out to be a short-lived period of catch-up, following the deep recession of 2008-9.Why might they fear that?One reason, which I have been banging on about for years, is that in Britain (though less so in America) the private sector, especially households, remains hobbled by record debts incurred during the boom years - whose burden, at a time of low inflation, remains oppressive.Other possible apocalyptic jockeys - with a nod to the influential US economist Bob Gordon - include our ageing populations, inequality which channels the fruits of whatever economic success we see to low-spending rich people, inadequate education for an intensely competitive global economy and the putative end of the West's capacity to make society-transforming innovations.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29377075
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #88 - September 26, 2014, 03:33 PM

    Leftist and anarchist that pisses both religionists and secular humanists

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Conservative or liberal
     Reply #89 - September 26, 2014, 03:37 PM

    Europe’s Secret Success

    Quote
    SINTRA, Portugal — I’ll be spending the next couple of days at a forum sponsored by the European Central Bank whose de facto topic — whatever it may say on the program — will be the destructive monetary muddle caused by the Continent’s premature adoption of a single currency. What makes the story even sadder is that Europe’s financial and macroeconomic woes have overshadowed its remarkable, unheralded longer-term success in an area in which it used to lag: job creation.

    What? You haven’t heard about that? Well, that’s not too surprising. European economies, France in particular, get very bad press in America. Our political discourse is dominated by reverse Robin-Hoodism — the belief that economic success depends on being nice to the rich, who won’t create jobs if they are heavily taxed, and nasty to ordinary workers, who won’t accept jobs unless they have no alternative. And according to this ideology, Europe — with its high taxes and generous welfare states — does everything wrong. So Europe’s economic system must be collapsing, and a lot of reporting simply states the postulated collapse as a fact.

    The reality, however, is very different. Yes, Southern Europe is experiencing an economic crisis thanks to that money muddle. But Northern European nations, France included, have done far better than most Americans realize. In particular, here’s a startling, little-known fact: French adults in their prime working years (25 to 54) are substantially more likely to have jobs than their U.S. counterparts.

    It wasn’t always that way. Back in the 1990s Europe really did have big problems with job creation; the phenomenon even received a catchy name, “Eurosclerosis.” And it seemed obvious what the problem was: Europe’s social safety net had, as Representative Paul Ryan likes to warn, become a “hammock” that undermined initiative and encouraged dependency.

    But then a funny thing happened: Europe started doing much better, while America started doing much worse. France’s prime-age employment rate overtook America’s early in the Bush administration; at this point the gap in employment rates is bigger than it was in the late 1990s, this time in France’s favor. Other European nations with big welfare states, like Sweden and the Netherlands, do even better.

    Now, young French citizens are still a lot less likely to have jobs than their American counterparts — but a large part of that difference reflects the fact that France provides much more aid to students, so that they don’t have to work their way through school. Is that a bad thing? Also, the French take more vacations and retire earlier than we do, and you can argue that the incentives for early retirement in particular are too generous. But on the core issue of providing jobs for people who really should be working, at this point old Europe is beating us hands down despite social benefits and regulations that, according to free-market ideologues, should be hugely job-destroying.

    Oh, and for those who believe that out-of-work Americans, coddled by government benefits, just aren’t trying to find jobs, we’ve just performed a cruel experiment using the worst victims of our job crisis as subjects. At the end of last year Congress refused to renew extended jobless benefits, cutting off millions of unemployed Americans. Did the long-term unemployed who were thereby placed in dire straits start finding jobs more rapidly than before? No — not at all. Somehow, it seems, the only thing we achieved by making the unemployed more desperate was deepening their desperation.

    I’m sure that many people will simply refuse to believe what I’m saying about European strengths. After all, ever since the euro crisis broke out there has been a relentless campaign by American conservatives (and quite a few Europeans too) to portray it as a story of collapsing welfare states, brought low by misguided concerns about social justice. And they keep saying that even though some of the strongest economies in Europe, like Germany, have welfare states whose generosity exceeds the wildest dreams of U.S. liberals.

    But macroeconomics, as I keep trying to tell people, isn’t a morality play, where virtue is always rewarded and vice always punished. On the contrary, severe financial crises and depressions can happen to economies that are fundamentally very strong, like the United States in 1929. The policy mistakes that created the euro crisis — mainly creating a unified currency without the kind of banking and fiscal union that a single currency demands — basically had nothing to do with the welfare state, one way or another.

    The truth is that European-style welfare states have proved more resilient, more successful at job creation, than is allowed for in America’s prevailing economic philosophy.


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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