The Fitrah.

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- Hassan1
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The Fitrah.
OP - November 14, 2008, 06:42 PM

Hello All,

For those of you unaware of the concept, the Fitrah is an Islamic belief that all people have a natural inclination towards believing in one god. That is to say, every man, woman and child has an innate belief in a creator and a disposition towards monotheism as his faith. To quote the prophet (pbuh):

"No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)

I have noticed that the majority of ex-Muslims have turned towards rejection of the creator – be it in the form of mild agnosticism, or wholesale adoption of the atheistic creed. Whether disbelief in god was the chicken, and rejection of islam the egg (or vice versa depending on your perspective) is a topic for another time, perhaps.

Anyhoo, I firmly believe in the aforementioned statement of the prophet (pbuh). I was speaking recently to a hard-nosed atheist friend of mine who, despite rejecting god openly (and rather eloquently), wasn’t able to shake off the feeling that there may be a higher purpose. He discussed this away as an evolutionary trait – that belief in god is a sort of primordial hangover from a time when man needed god to answer the many puzzles of life. Dawkins touched upon this in The God Delusion, which I read recently. I didn’t buy his explanation.

The fitrah, for me, is the defining factor that points me towards the belief in one god. It is that “gut” feeling that drives me forward. The feeling that our existence today isn’t the product of millions of years of coincidence. It is something that is embedded, hard to wriggle out of and devastating in its hold over me. It keeps me Muslim and it keeps me praying.

I wanted to know your thoughts on the Fitrah. Whether you “have it”, don’t have it, have it but haven’t found an avenue for it’s fulfilment – or whether you think that it is all a bit silly.

Thanks :-)

...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #1 - November 14, 2008, 06:54 PM

Hi Hassan1,

Personally I do believe in God and my rejection of Islam was not because I had doubts about God - but because I had doubts about the Qur'an.

As for whether humans have this Fitrah - natural inclination towards belief in God. I suspect that most people do lean towards belief in God. But I really have no way of knowing whether it is a natural inclination put there by God - or whether it is just a inclination towards trying to explain things one cannot or seek solace or to calm fear etc...

The honest answer is I don't know.

It does seem odd though that God would put this inclination - presumably so we could be guided and thus avoid Hell - yet make it so easily confused and misguided.
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #2 - November 14, 2008, 06:56 PM

Quote
On the Upper West Side of NYC lived an assimilated Jewish man who was now a very militant atheist. But he sent his son Morris to Trinity School because, despite its denominational roots, it was a great school and completely secular.

After a month, the boy came home and said casually, "By the way, Dad, I learned what Trinity means! It means 'The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.'"

The father could barely control his rage. He seized his son by the shoulders and declared, "Morris, I'm going to tell you something now and I want you never to forget it. Forget this Trinity business. There is only one God... and we don't believe in him!"

If there is a God, sure, 'He' is one. But I have a problem with the way 'He' is conveyed in Islam (or has conveyed Islam), or any other religion I know of for that matter.

I'll respond in detail later, inshallah. I'm just feeling lazy right now.

Good question for discussion Hassan1.

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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #3 - November 14, 2008, 07:01 PM

Quote from: Hassan on November 14, 2008, 06:54 PM
Hi Hassan1,

Personally I do believe in God and my rejection of Islam was not because I had doubts about God - but because I had doubts about the Qur'an.

As for whether humans have this Fitrah - natural inclination towards belief in God. I suspect that most people do lean towards belief in God. But I really have no way of knowing whether it is a natural inclination put there by God - or whether it is just a inclination towards trying to explain things one cannot or seek solace or to calm fear etc...

The honest answer is I don't know.

It does seem odd though that God would put this inclination - presumably so we could be guided and thus avoid Hell - yet make it so easily confused and misguided.

Namesake,

You believe in god. What next. How does one find answers to the many questions that are posed to him. What is the nature of god. How many gods are there. How does one seek to please him. And most importantly of all, what is the prupose of life. Do you belive these are questions that can never really bre answered?

...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #4 - November 14, 2008, 07:05 PM

Quote from: Hassan1 on November 14, 2008, 07:01 PM
You believe in god. What next. How does one find answers to the many questions that are posed to him. What is the nature of god. How many gods are there. How does one seek to please him. And most importantly of all, what is the prupose of life. Do you belive these are questions that can never really bre answered?

It's not that I believe these questions can never be answered - but imho none of the religions in existence answer them satisfactorily - and as yet I am yet to find any satisfactory answers.

Not knowing the answers sucks at times.

But I'd rather that than subscribe to beliefs I don't really buy.
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #5 - November 14, 2008, 07:08 PM

Quote from: Hassan on November 14, 2008, 07:05 PM
Quote from: Hassan1 on November 14, 2008, 07:01 PM
You believe in god. What next. How does one find answers to the many questions that are posed to him. What is the nature of god. How many gods are there. How does one seek to please him. And most importantly of all, what is the prupose of life. Do you belive these are questions that can never really bre answered?

It's not that I believe these questions can never be answered - but imho none of the religions in existence answer them satisfactorily - and as yet I am yet to find any satisfactory answers.

Not knowing the answers sucks at times.

But I'd rather that than subscribe to beliefs I don't really buy.

Do you think that given the unfruitful quest of many a philosopher to answer these questions, that your own endeavor will inevitibly fall short of what you consider satisfactory?

...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
- cosmicdancer
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #6 - November 14, 2008, 07:18 PM

Quote from: Hassan1 on November 14, 2008, 07:08 PM
Do you think that given the unfruitful quest of many a philosopher to answer these questions, that your own endeavor will inevitibly fall short of what you consider satisfactory?

I do, but like I say, I'd rather continue searching than settle for beliefs that I don't believe. (Even if that were possible.)
- Iris
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #7 - November 14, 2008, 07:26 PM

This is confusing! I dont know which hassan to address

Original Hassan (XP) - as usual you've hit the nail on the head:
Quote
As for whether humans have this Fitrah - natural inclination towards belief in God. I suspect that most people do lean towards belief in God. But I really have no way of knowing whether it is a natural inclination put there by God - or whether it is just a inclination towards trying to explain things one cannot or seek solace or to calm fear etc...

I think so too - I would love to believe in God but acknowledge that a lot of that stems from a desire to give my life some sort of meaning or my need to feel looked after by some sort of powerful parental figure.

Quote
Not knowing the answers sucks at times.

But I'd rather that than subscribe to beliefs I don't really buy.

Hassan1 (vista):

F
Quote
or those of you unaware of the concept, the Fitrah is an Islamic belief that all people have a natural inclination towards believing in one god. That is to say, every man, woman and child has an innate belief in a creator and a disposition towards monotheism as his faith. To quote the prophet (pbuh):

"No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)

Im not sure that is true - for starters it seems that primitive cultures - which should theoretically live by instinct more that we do - generally believe in multiple deities .
|Also, believing in one God is not equivalent to being a muslim - even if it were true that our natural inclination is towards monotheism, its a pretty tall claim to say that we are all born as Muslims!

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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #8 - November 14, 2008, 07:33 PM

Quote from: Iris on November 14, 2008, 07:26 PM
Hassan1 (vista):

Im not sure that is true - for starters it seems that primitive cultures - which should theoretically live by instinct more that we do - generally believe in multiple deities .
|Also, believing in one God is not equivalent to being a muslim - even if it were true that our natural inclination is towards monotheism, its a pretty tall claim to say that we are all born as Muslims!

First of all - I object to being referred to as Vista. I have been told that it has a lot of bugs and am not particularly keen on what you are trying to imply. If you must give me an operating system epithet, let it be MacOS.

With regards to your question, present day islam is equated to the monotheism that proceeded it. For instance, it was not in Abraham's canonical law to pray 5 times a day, he still professed the core teachings of monotheism - which is most cloesly mirrored by present day islam. In short, Muslim circles beieve that ancient monothiesm, as a word/phrase, is interchanebale with the word Islam.

...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
- zomzom
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #9 - November 14, 2008, 07:38 PM

Actually, the Vista bug is a lie, the patches have addressed all the problems, the only problem is, its a memory hog.

Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
- Hassan1
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #10 - November 14, 2008, 07:39 PM

Quote from: King Tut on November 14, 2008, 07:38 PM
Actually, the Vista bug is a lie, the patches have addressed all the problems, the only problem is, its a memory hog.

So now I am a drain on memory? When will the insults cease!

...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
- Lana
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #11 - November 15, 2008, 09:44 AM

I no longer like the idea of the one, almighty, powerful god who makes and is in charge of everything. It brings to mind the image of a child playing with a bunch of toy soldiers. What is the point of us if God is already all-powerful and all perfect? "Why would God create humans in the first place?" I kept asking myself. There was some Jewish theology/philosophy I read once which discussed the idea "God created man because he loves stories." It was sort of a brain-teaser-type thing, where you had to ponder what it meant and if the "he" referred to God or man. A fun exercise, but it doesn't answer the question. At this point I prefer the concept of the divine found in Taoism or even (lol, because I'm a sci fi geek) Jedi. I'm open to there being Something, but the idea of a "person" who created everything, knows everything, is all-powerful, and monitors your thoughts and actions to the point of caring what you eat and wear and whether or not you believe in him? It just seems...

Silly.

Quote from: Hassan1 on November 14, 2008, 07:33 PM
With regards to your question, present day islam is equated to the monotheism that proceeded it. For instance, it was not in Abraham's canonical law to pray 5 times a day, he still professed the core teachings of monotheism - which is most cloesly mirrored by present day islam. In short, Muslim circles beieve that ancient monothiesm, as a word/phrase, is interchanebale with the word Islam.

How is it that present-day Islam mirrors the teachings of Abraham better than present-day Judaism?

Though it has no bridge,
The cloud climbs up to heaven;
It does not seek the aid
Of Gautama's sutras.

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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #12 - November 15, 2008, 09:50 AM

It doesn't. It's just part of Islamic dogma that Islam is the original religion and all others are corruptions of it. It's a self-serving dogma and entirely without any evidence to back it up, as well as a lot of evidence to contradict it. As Iris pointed out "primitive" societies are not monotheistsic. In fact in the history of the world monotheisms are a rarity. Polytheism is the norm.

The Jews themselves were polytheistic until quite late ( Yahweh was just one member of their pantheon ) and there's no evidence that was ever preceded by a monotheistic period.

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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #13 - November 15, 2008, 11:29 AM

Quote from: Hassan1 on November 14, 2008, 07:33 PM

In short, Muslim circles beieve that ancient monothiesm, as a word/phrase, is interchanebale with the word Islam.

They would say that wouldn't they.

This whole idea that Muslims put forward of everyone being born Muslim is very annoying and a complete brain ache. In fact it makes me cringe it is that annoying.

Most people believe there to be just one God if he exists has more to do IMO with people's attempts to make sense of the world and believe that there is ultimately one unique source for all we see around us. It simply makes it easier for us to try and develop a theory for creation when working with just one starting point.

Since neither muslims nor anyone else has yet to prove that one god exists then if other people want to spice up their religions by including 3. 300 or 3000 gods then good luck to them as lomg as they don't damage others in the process.
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #14 - November 15, 2008, 01:12 PM

Perhaps I haven't explained this concept well. To be a "Muslim" is to submit to God. So a "Muslim" of the past (ie pre-islam) who submits himself to one god, is no different from the "muslim" who submits himself to god today. Likewise, Islam means to "submit" - so those submitting themselves to Allah in the past were followers of Islam. This is regardless of any superflous (not the right word, but whatever) laws that were bought in by the cannon of Muhammad (pbuh).

I dont think any Muslim in their right mind would claim that Moses paid a 2.5% charity tax, or that he fasted in the month of Ramdan - but he will still be a Muslim and a follower of Islam because he submitted himself to the oneness of his lord.

Hope that cleared it up?

...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #15 - November 15, 2008, 01:50 PM

Thanks Hassan1 but I've already heard before on many occasions the workaround you outline in your first paragraph.

To quote Gordon Brown some of us are not 'novices' with regards to Islam on this forum.

This line of thougt that Muslims propose that all people are in fact born Muslim is in fact a subtle form of bullying and oppression.

In my opinion it is not too dissimilar to the phrase 'Resistance is Futile'.
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #16 - November 15, 2008, 04:45 PM

Quote from: Hassan1 on November 14, 2008, 06:42 PM
Hello All,

For those of you unaware of the concept, the Fitrah is an Islamic belief that all people have a natural inclination towards believing in one god. That is to say, every man, woman and child has an innate belief in a creator and a disposition towards monotheism as his faith. To quote the prophet (pbuh):

I believe a very different thing: That the default state of a newborn is "atheist" and his/her parents instill (infect more like it) them with their religion.

There are millions of us who lead very happy, productive, and joyful lives without need for any kind of religious beliefs.

And no, we do not have "all the answers" nor do we claim to. But that doesn't stop us from looking.
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #17 - November 15, 2008, 04:54 PM

Quote from: Lana on November 15, 2008, 09:44 AM
I no longer like the idea of the one, almighty, powerful god who makes and is in charge of everything. It brings to mind the image of a child playing with a bunch of toy soldiers. What is the point of us if God is already all-powerful and all perfect? "Why would God create humans in the first place?" I kept asking myself. There was some Jewish theology/philosophy I read once which discussed the idea "God created man because he loves stories." It was sort of a brain-teaser-type thing, where you had to ponder what it meant and if the "he" referred to God or man. A fun exercise, but it doesn't answer the question. At this point I prefer the concept of the divine found in Taoism or even (lol, because I'm a sci fi geek) Jedi. I'm open to there being Something, but the idea of a "person" who created everything, knows everything, is all-powerful, and monitors your thoughts and actions to the point of caring what you eat and wear and whether or not you believe in him? It just seems...

Silly.

If there is in fact a supreme being of some sort as some people assert, then I would have to say that all the evidence available to me would suggest that said supreme being simply DOES NOT CARE one way or the other about us.

And the image of a child playing with toy soldiers is a good one because if reflects how many people view their deity.

It is a recipe for failure.
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #18 - November 15, 2008, 07:29 PM

Quote from: Hassan1 on November 15, 2008, 01:12 PM
Perhaps I haven't explained this concept well. To be a "Muslim" is to submit to God. So a "Muslim" of the past (ie pre-islam) who submits himself to one god, is no different from the "muslim" who submits himself to god today. Likewise, Islam means to "submit" - so those submitting themselves to Allah in the past were followers of Islam. This is regardless of any superflous (not the right word, but whatever) laws that were bought in by the cannon of Muhammad (pbuh).

I dont think any Muslim in their right mind would claim that Moses paid a 2.5% charity tax, or that he fasted in the month of Ramdan - but he will still be a Muslim and a follower of Islam because he submitted himself to the oneness of his lord.

Hope that cleared it up?

Hi Hassan1. It pains me to say this but, no, I don't think you answered my main question: How is present day Islam closer to Abraham's original message than present day Judaism?

Iris, it's funny, Islam isn't the only religion that does that. I was speaking with a Catholic friend the other day and she explained how in Catholicism they believe that everyone is "born with a God-shaped hole in their hearts." Uh, it's a metaphor, which I didn't get at first, I thought "wtf?" It just means that they believe everyone has a certain innate longing to find the divine and God.

I think there's some logic to that, but I don't think the desire for God means he must exist. Or that it's necessarily actually a desire for God as much as it is a desire for everything to really be controlled by a single person who is on your side, who you can make appeals to, who will make sure everything's okay for you in the end as long as you are a good person. It reminds of a quote, I don't remember who said it: "It's not 'God is dead,' it's 'God is dad'."

Though it has no bridge,
The cloud climbs up to heaven;
It does not seek the aid
Of Gautama's sutras.

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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #19 - November 15, 2008, 09:19 PM

Quote from: Hassan1 on November 15, 2008, 01:12 PM
Perhaps I haven't explained this concept well. To be a "Muslim" is to submit to God. So a "Muslim" of the past (ie pre-islam) who submits himself to one god, is no different from the "muslim" who submits himself to god today. Likewise, Islam means to "submit" - so those submitting themselves to Allah in the past were followers of Islam. This is regardless of any superflous (not the right word, but whatever) laws that were bought in by the cannon of Muhammad (pbuh).

I dont think any Muslim in their right mind would claim that Moses paid a 2.5% charity tax, or that he fasted in the month of Ramdan - but he will still be a Muslim and a follower of Islam because he submitted himself to the oneness of his lord.

Hope that cleared it up?

Words.

Anyway we already know what Islam means. It doesn't change anything.

To be a Muslim is to submit to the Islamic conception of god. Bear in mind that Islam states the Torah and Bible are corruptions of the original Quran that Allah wrote in heaven. IOW, the only reason they don't mention the 2.5% tax is because some clown edited that bit out against Allah's wishes, which is why Mohammed had to go and fix it up again.

Also you are still ignoring the whole point about polytheisms and ancient cultures. You claim the natural-born state of all humans is Islam. The evidence seems to indicate that if anything the natural-born state of humans is polytheist.

As I said, the Islamic dogma is self-serving and entirely without evidential basis.

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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #20 - November 15, 2008, 09:52 PM

A very good question:I think it is typical of the arrogance of all religions and monotheistic ones in particular.

It seems to say,'Don't look any further, we have all the answers and don't question, it's non-negotiable'. IOW it is claiming to be the default position whilst having absolutely no evidence for any of it's assertions.
The only thing we know for sure is that 'belief' itself exists. In which case I might be inclined to summise that 'belief' has evolved into something useful for our species. I mean, 6.5 billion and rising: it's time we ditched 'belief'.
Perhaps that's what Atheism is, the next successful evolutionary trait.

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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #21 - November 16, 2008, 07:38 PM

Quote
I think there's some logic to that, but I don't think the desire for God means he must exist. Or that it's necessarily actually a desire for God as much as it is a desire for everything to really be controlled by a single person who is on your side, who you can make appeals to, who will make sure everything's okay for you in the end as long as you are a good person. It reminds of a quote, I don't remember who said it: "It's not 'God is dead,' it's 'God is dad'."

Thanks Lana, you've eloquently summarised exactly what I was trying to express earlier.

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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #22 - November 17, 2008, 01:15 AM

Quote from: Hassan1 on November 14, 2008, 07:01 PM
Quote from: Hassan on November 14, 2008, 06:54 PM
Hi Hassan1,

Personally I do believe in God and my rejection of Islam was not because I had doubts about God - but because I had doubts about the Qur'an.

As for whether humans have this Fitrah - natural inclination towards belief in God. I suspect that most people do lean towards belief in God. But I really have no way of knowing whether it is a natural inclination put there by God - or whether it is just a inclination towards trying to explain things one cannot or seek solace or to calm fear etc...

The honest answer is I don't know.

It does seem odd though that God would put this inclination - presumably so we could be guided and thus avoid Hell - yet make it so easily confused and misguided.

Namesake,

You believe in god. What next. How does one find answers to the many questions that are posed to him. What is the nature of god. How many gods are there. How does one seek to please him. And most importantly of all, what is the prupose of life. Do you belive these are questions that can never really bre answered?

Hassan1, I'm not saying you're doing this here, but this is the argument for religion that religionists make all the time - it starts with these questions and ends with a plea or demand to accept Jesus or Allah or whoever - and it presumes that there must be an answer. Religionists believe that these are the most important questions, that they demand to be answered, but I think it is just a conceit that religion affords itself. 'How to please him' is no more important if the him is god or your bedroom partner.

I know it is uncomfortable to consider but maybe there aren't answers. All kinds of stupid answers are posed to god. Why didn't I win the poetry contest at school? Well, maybe the answer is that your poem wasn't good enough. Why did I get cancer? Because you did. Does it somehow make a life experience easier to bear if there is a mystical answer to it? I'm asking honestly, because I don't know. The mind numbing, absolute and utter silence of 'Allah' wasn't an answer at all, only an indicator that this all powerful deity wasn't there at all or if he was, he had better things to do than listen to my whining.

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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #23 - November 17, 2008, 01:20 AM

Quote from: SmartAssmodeus on November 15, 2008, 04:45 PM

I believe a very different thing: That the default state of a newborn is "atheist" and his/her parents instill (infect more like it) them with their religion.

There are millions of us who lead very happy, productive, and joyful lives without need for any kind of religious beliefs.

And no, we do not have "all the answers" nor do we claim to. But that doesn't stop us from looking.

SmartAssmodeus, this is the viewpoint to which I find myself leaning. That one's search for god in Islaam or anything else is due to the fact that you are raised by society to believe in a supernatural being. Even if one's parents don't do a lot of god-talking, society does. From god to Jeebus to Muhammad to angels to ghosts to any other number of things, it's part and parcel of the culture. I think this is why a lot of people who leave Islaam and other religions, especially strict ones, end up with this agnosticism and sort of a vaguely defined belief in the divine. Because it's what you've been raised to do. I am a firm agnostic - I don't know because I really don't even know what is really coming from me and what's coming from societal conditioning when I try to think about god and the afterlife. Though I lean towards nothing being there.

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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #24 - November 17, 2008, 03:12 AM

Quote from: fading on November 17, 2008, 01:15 AM
I know it is uncomfortable to consider but maybe there aren't answers. All kinds of stupid answers are posed to god. Why didn't I win the poetry contest at school? Well, maybe the answer is that your poem wasn't good enough. Why did I get cancer? Because you did. Does it somehow make a life experience easier to bear if there is a mystical answer to it? I'm asking honestly, because I don't know. The mind numbing, absolute and utter silence of 'Allah' wasn't an answer at all, only an indicator that this all powerful deity wasn't there at all or if he was, he had better things to do than listen to my whining.

Right. To quote Mr. Dawkins, " 'God did it' is an explanation that doesn't actually explain anything."

Though it has no bridge,
The cloud climbs up to heaven;
It does not seek the aid
Of Gautama's sutras.

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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #25 - November 17, 2008, 08:51 AM

Sorry to be late into this interesting thread, Hassan1 (fitrahist?), Hassan (deist?), Smartassmodeus (atheist), Fading (agnostic).

I'm very much with my fellow SmartAss in being sure of atheism as the human default condition at birth. Subsequent defined religious belief is entirely the result of indoctrination.

I have a certain sympathy with Hassan. Deism, I can see as the comforting mystical conclusion of wonder and bewilderment before science came along, and as the natural conclusion of many free-thinking people today who, for one reason or another, can vaguely envisage a hands-off creator. My only beef with deism is its likely history and an opinion (by no means grounded in scholarship) that deism may well have pre-dated and given rise to the more formalised religions which have been such a burden to mankind ever since.

There is no 'god gene', although there may well be an evolutionary predisposition to believe 'authority'. The notion of fitrah as explained by Hassan1, I find unacceptable and verging on the ridiculous. We mustn't confuse belief with Daniel Dennett's 'belief in belief'.

Cheers. Neil

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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #26 - November 17, 2008, 12:34 PM

Quote from: neilmarr on November 17, 2008, 08:51 AM

I have a certain sympathy with Hassan. Deism, I can see as the comforting mystical conclusion of wonder and bewilderment before science came along, and as the natural conclusion of many free-thinking people today who, for one reason or another, can vaguely envisage a hands-off creator. My only beef with deism is its likely history and an opinion (by no means grounded in scholarship) that deism may well have pre-dated and given rise to the more formalised religions which have been such a burden to mankind ever since.

I accept your point, Neil. Without doubt the temptation is to define what God wants etc...

Personally I don't feel I will ever fall into that trap again - after all I've been through.

My belief in a God remains undefined and without any qualifications - I simply don't know anything - and fully accept that I have no real evidence for a God - and that there indeed may be none.
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #27 - November 17, 2008, 12:39 PM

Quote from: Lana on November 15, 2008, 07:29 PM
Quote from: Hassan1 on November 15, 2008, 01:12 PM
Perhaps I haven't explained this concept well. To be a "Muslim" is to submit to God. So a "Muslim" of the past (ie pre-islam) who submits himself to one god, is no different from the "muslim" who submits himself to god today. Likewise, Islam means to "submit" - so those submitting themselves to Allah in the past were followers of Islam. This is regardless of any superflous (not the right word, but whatever) laws that were bought in by the cannon of Muhammad (pbuh).

I dont think any Muslim in their right mind would claim that Moses paid a 2.5% charity tax, or that he fasted in the month of Ramdan - but he will still be a Muslim and a follower of Islam because he submitted himself to the oneness of his lord.

Hope that cleared it up?

Hi Hassan1. It pains me to say this but, no, I don't think you answered my main question: How is present day Islam closer to Abraham's original message than present day Judaism?

Hello Lana,

I will refer you to what I said earlier:

Quote
With regards to your question, present day islam is equated to the monotheism that proceeded it.

The underyling and unyielding theological precept behind Islam is absolute submission to one god. This was the same for all rightly guided monotheists who lived before the advent of islam. That is to say, the original Jews, Xtians, Sabeans etc were "Muslim" in so much as they submitted themslves to their lord.

The fitrah means to have a natural dispositon towards one god (with islam being the oft-used word of interchange). So to say that every child is born with the fitrah is to say they have a inclination towards one god, or more accuratley, an inclination to submit to one god - which is what Islam teaches.

The present day "essence" of islam is closer to Abrahams teachings than that of judaism. Although Judaism (and Sikhism) are monotheistic faiths, the concept of submission is, I believe, unique to islam.

I am sorry if that sounds a bit garbaled, I'm still trying to grapple with it myself. Also, my argument may not align with traditional islamic belief - so I'll be sure to double check that with you too.

Hassan1

...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #28 - November 17, 2008, 12:48 PM

Quote from: fading on November 17, 2008, 01:15 AM
Quote from: Hassan1 on November 14, 2008, 07:01 PM
Quote from: Hassan on November 14, 2008, 06:54 PM
Hi Hassan1,

Personally I do believe in God and my rejection of Islam was not because I had doubts about God - but because I had doubts about the Qur'an.

As for whether humans have this Fitrah - natural inclination towards belief in God. I suspect that most people do lean towards belief in God. But I really have no way of knowing whether it is a natural inclination put there by God - or whether it is just a inclination towards trying to explain things one cannot or seek solace or to calm fear etc...

The honest answer is I don't know.

It does seem odd though that God would put this inclination - presumably so we could be guided and thus avoid Hell - yet make it so easily confused and misguided.

Namesake,

You believe in god. What next. How does one find answers to the many questions that are posed to him. What is the nature of god. How many gods are there. How does one seek to please him. And most importantly of all, what is the prupose of life. Do you belive these are questions that can never really bre answered?

Hassan1, I'm not saying you're doing this here, but this is the argument for religion that religionists make all the time - it starts with these questions and ends with a plea or demand to accept Jesus or Allah or whoever - and it presumes that there must be an answer. Religionists believe that these are the most important questions, that they demand to be answered, but I think it is just a conceit that religion affords itself. 'How to please him' is no more important if the him is god or your bedroom partner.

Hello Fading,

These were posed as genuine questions.

Although it may not seem completley and irrefutably logical, religion does provide an answer to preguntas that have plagued man since the dawn of time. These answers are steeped in primordial tradition and wisdom of the ancients.

Men and Women of faith do not always have the answer, but more often then not, their faith and their trust in the unseen - in their natural disposition - is enough to carry them through. However illogical this may seem, it seems to have worked pretty well for thousands of years and for the vast vast majority of people.

...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #29 - November 17, 2008, 12:51 PM

Quote from: Hassan1 on November 17, 2008, 12:48 PM
it seems to have worked pretty well for thousands of years and for the vast vast majority of people.

What is your definition of "worked pretty well"?

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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