The Fitrah.

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- Hassan1
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #30 - November 17, 2008, 12:54 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on November 17, 2008, 12:51 PM
Quote from: Hassan1 on November 17, 2008, 12:48 PM
it seems to have worked pretty well for thousands of years and for the vast vast majority of people.

What is your definition of "worked pretty well"?

Hello Berber Ella,

Worked pretty well in the sense that it has provided people with solace and internal peace for countless centuries. Not always, granted. And sometimes maniupulated by those with self intrest, again - granted.

Hassan1

...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #31 - November 17, 2008, 03:24 PM

Hi Hassan 1, what's a pregunta? Is it the same as a connundrum?

Just a few observations you might consider:
Dawn of time? All the evidence currently available suggests that Man hasn't been around since the dawn of time.
Primordial tradition? A contradiction in terms surely.
Wisdom of the Ancients? I don't think they had any in the modern sense.
Worked pretty well? How can we know? What's to compare it with?
Faith and trust in the unseen? Lemmings?
Purpose of life? Observably, it's to produce the next generation.

Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #32 - November 17, 2008, 03:55 PM

Pregunta in Spanish means question - I guess that is what Hassan1 meant.

Paloma

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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #33 - November 17, 2008, 03:59 PM

Thanks, Paloma. It makes sense now when I imagine the accent.

Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
- neilmarr
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #34 - November 17, 2008, 04:25 PM

***My belief in a God remains undefined and without any qualifications - I simply don't know anything - and fully accept that I have no real evidence for a God - and that there indeed may be none.***

It's an honest admission like this that leads me to believe I could happily share a long train journey in the same carriage as a deist without ever having to pretend to be asleep or doing the crossword -- nothing dogmatic and, certainly, no amateur missionary work between Crewe and Carlisle. The one thing that puzzles me about deism, though, is that the supposed indifferent creator is so darned unnecessary. You've taken the giant leap from formal, organised religion to deism (and it seems to me even agnosticism about deism) ... why not take the one small step to atheism and have done with the whole can o' nonsense? Neil

We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
- Lana
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #35 - November 17, 2008, 06:26 PM

Quote from: Hassan1 on November 17, 2008, 12:39 PM
Quote from: Lana on November 15, 2008, 07:29 PM
Quote from: Hassan1 on November 15, 2008, 01:12 PM
Perhaps I haven't explained this concept well. To be a "Muslim" is to submit to God. So a "Muslim" of the past (ie pre-islam) who submits himself to one god, is no different from the "muslim" who submits himself to god today. Likewise, Islam means to "submit" - so those submitting themselves to Allah in the past were followers of Islam. This is regardless of any superflous (not the right word, but whatever) laws that were bought in by the cannon of Muhammad (pbuh).

I dont think any Muslim in their right mind would claim that Moses paid a 2.5% charity tax, or that he fasted in the month of Ramdan - but he will still be a Muslim and a follower of Islam because he submitted himself to the oneness of his lord.

Hope that cleared it up?

Hi Hassan1. It pains me to say this but, no, I don't think you answered my main question: How is present day Islam closer to Abraham's original message than present day Judaism?

Hello Lana,

I will refer you to what I said earlier:

Quote
With regards to your question, present day islam is equated to the monotheism that proceeded it.

The underyling and unyielding theological precept behind Islam is absolute submission to one god. This was the same for all rightly guided monotheists who lived before the advent of islam. That is to say, the original Jews, Xtians, Sabeans etc were "Muslim" in so much as they submitted themslves to their lord.

The fitrah means to have a natural dispositon towards one god (with islam being the oft-used word of interchange). So to say that every child is born with the fitrah is to say they have a inclination towards one god, or more accuratley, an inclination to submit to one god - which is what Islam teaches.

The present day "essence" of islam is closer to Abrahams teachings than that of judaism. Although Judaism (and Sikhism) are monotheistic faiths, the concept of submission is, I believe, unique to islam.

I am sorry if that sounds a bit garbaled, I'm still trying to grapple with it myself. Also, my argument may not align with traditional islamic belief - so I'll be sure to double check that with you too.

Hassan1

Thanks for your response, Hassan1. However, I'm still not convinced. It would like it of you could first define exactly what the original teachings of Abraham are, and then explain why Islam fulfills them and why Judaism falls short of them. For instance, if the it's all supposed to be about submission, how is Islam more submissive to God than Judaism?

Though it has no bridge,
The cloud climbs up to heaven;
It does not seek the aid
Of Gautama's sutras.

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- cosmicdancer
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #36 - November 17, 2008, 07:37 PM

Quote from: neilmarr on November 17, 2008, 04:25 PM
***My belief in a God remains undefined and without any qualifications - I simply don't know anything - and fully accept that I have no real evidence for a God - and that there indeed may be none.***

It's an honest admission like this that leads me to believe I could happily share a long train journey in the same carriage as a deist without ever having to pretend to be asleep or doing the crossword -- nothing dogmatic and, certainly, no amateur missionary work between Crewe and Carlisle. The one thing that puzzles me about deism, though, is that the supposed indifferent creator is so darned unnecessary. You've taken the giant leap from formal, organised religion to deism (and it seems to me even agnosticism about deism) ... why not take the one small step to atheism and have done with the whole can o' nonsense? Neil

I can't avoid the feeling that there is a higher power and higher meaning and purpose above and beyond the biological or evolutionary one.

Of course what I 'feel' is certainly evidence for nothing. Which is why I admit I have no evidence for my belief and I admit there may indeed be no god.

btw I read 'The God Delusion' and found it an excellent book and I agree with a great deal of what Dawkins says. But ultimately - just as there is no undeniable evidence for God - there is no undeniable evidence that there is no God - even Dawkins admits that.
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #37 - November 17, 2008, 10:55 PM

Quote from: Hassan1 on November 17, 2008, 12:48 PM

Although it may not seem completley and irrefutably logical, religion does provide an answer to preguntas that have plagued man since the dawn of time. These answers are steeped in primordial tradition and wisdom of the ancients.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy into that 'wisdom of the ancients' stuff. The ancients didn't know what the fuck they were talking about a lot of the time and believed all kinds of hilarious and brutally disgusting things. An idea should not be afforded validation simply because it's old. And religion doesn't have the answers, full stop. It has some of the answers that people want it to have, hence the diversity of religions providing every answer under the sun. People give religion meaning; it has none on its own, and we're simply conditioned as a society to say that it does.

Quote
Men and Women of faith do not always have the answer, but more often then not, their faith and their trust in the unseen - in their natural disposition - is enough to carry them through. However illogical this may seem, it seems to have worked pretty well for thousands of years and for the vast vast majority of people.

Well no, not really. Start off with human sacrifice, work your way through the hundreds of wars fought over gods, and end up with some airplanes crashing into skyscrapers. Then keep on going until the end of time - that's how well it's working for people. I would say that religion worked a lot better for people when they didn't know how the solar system worked, or what bacteria were, or anything else about the natural world. The more we learn, the less use people seem to have for religion. And even if it did 'work well' as a tool for societal order used by chiefs and kings since the dawn of time - that still doesn't mean that it serves any purpose beyond each individual's desire to believe in a skyman or woman.

Also, I don't get into the 'vast majority' answer either. I know you said your questions were genuine and I believe you, but you're going word-for-word through the 'Missionary / Dawahganda' instruction manual on talking to heathens and doubters here.

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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #38 - November 17, 2008, 10:58 PM

Quote from: Lana on November 17, 2008, 06:26 PM
Thanks for your response, Hassan1. However, I'm still not convinced. It would like it of you could first define exactly what the original teachings of Abraham are, and then explain why Islam fulfills them and why Judaism falls short of them. For instance, if the it's all supposed to be about submission, how is Islam more submissive to God than Judaism?

In brief, what they teach in the masjid is that the Jews and Christians went around tampering with the Bible and disobeying God while of course the Muslims haven't touched their divinely protected Quran which makes them the bestest invisible sky god worshipers EVER! Muslims also, laughably, teach that Muslims follow God's big list of dos and dont's, but we all know that's not true. Even Muslims know this is not true, hence the breast beating and woe is me from all of these famous dawahganda shaykhs and bloggers and such.

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- Lana
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #39 - November 18, 2008, 03:57 AM

Quote from: fading on November 17, 2008, 10:58 PM
Quote from: Lana on November 17, 2008, 06:26 PM
Thanks for your response, Hassan1. However, I'm still not convinced. It would like it of you could first define exactly what the original teachings of Abraham are, and then explain why Islam fulfills them and why Judaism falls short of them. For instance, if the it's all supposed to be about submission, how is Islam more submissive to God than Judaism?

In brief, what they teach in the masjid is that the Jews and Christians went around tampering with the Bible and disobeying God while of course the Muslims haven't touched their divinely protected Quran which makes them the bestest invisible sky god worshipers EVER! Muslims also, laughably, teach that Muslims follow God's big list of dos and dont's, but we all know that's not true. Even Muslims know this is not true, hence the breast beating and woe is me from all of these famous dawahganda shaykhs and bloggers and such.

I understand that as being a belief within Islam, but I don't understand how he can justify the statement within the larger pool of objective thought, outside Islam. I mean, if you told a bunch of Jews that Islam follows the original message of Abraham better than Judaism does, they would find it absurd. It implies that the Jews did not take the message revealed to them (you know, if you buy into all that religious stuff) seriously, when, in fact, Jews have been faithfully cherishing and passing down the teachings of their religion (founded by Abraham) for thousands of years before Muhammad and (in the eyes of everyone who isn't Muslim) Islam was born.

Though it has no bridge,
The cloud climbs up to heaven;
It does not seek the aid
Of Gautama's sutras.

- Ikkyu
- neilmarr
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #40 - November 18, 2008, 10:10 AM

***ultimately - just as there is no undeniable evidence for God - there is no undeniable evidence that there is no God***

That the burden of proof is on the claimant, Hassan, and that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence have become tiresome arguments through repetition. This doesn't mean they're any the less valid. Cheers. Neil

We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #41 - November 18, 2008, 10:50 AM

Quote from: neilmarr on November 18, 2008, 10:10 AM
***ultimately - just as there is no undeniable evidence for God - there is no undeniable evidence that there is no God***

That the burden of proof is on the claimant, Hassan, and that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence have become tiresome arguments through repetition. This doesn't mean they're any the less valid. Cheers. Neil

I think part of it is - we don't even know the nature of God... for all we know the evidence could be staring us in the face... as common as every day matter. For their to be a burden of proof on a claimant, there has to first be a claim. I think the only claim here is "I don't know".

I'm not trying to answer for Hassan, but up until the last post, he's described my own outlook on it pretty much to a T. So I thought I'd drop my two cents in on it.
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #42 - November 18, 2008, 10:53 AM

Quote from: Variable on November 18, 2008, 10:50 AM
For their to be a burden of proof on a claimant, there has to first be a claim. I think the only claim here is "I don't know".

Well said. Neil doesn't seem to get this point.

Ha Ha.
- cosmicdancer
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #43 - November 18, 2008, 11:01 AM

Quote from: neilmarr on November 18, 2008, 10:10 AM
***ultimately - just as there is no undeniable evidence for God - there is no undeniable evidence that there is no God***

That the burden of proof is on the claimant, Hassan, and that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence have become tiresome arguments through repetition. This doesn't mean they're any the less valid. Cheers. Neil

I accept what you say about the burden of proof being on the claimant - and I certainly don't go around proclaiming the existence of God, because I'm not sure he does exist. It is simply my personal belief and I'm not looking for converts lol
- neilmarr
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #44 - November 18, 2008, 11:16 AM

***I think part of it is - we don't even know the nature of God...***

And that's the whole problem, Variable. As long as people (I suspect Hassan is one) have a belief in an unknowable god who may or may not take a personal interest in his creation, religion is harmless and, perhaps, even desirable and admirable. As soon as men claim to know the mind of their god -- what he does and doesn't want -- things turn sour. It is this arrogance that has turned religion from a comfort and a positive guiding force into a disreputable establishment and a threat. Neil

We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
- cosmicdancer
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #45 - November 18, 2008, 11:24 AM

Quote from: neilmarr on November 18, 2008, 11:16 AM
As soon as men claim to know the mind of their god -- what he does and doesn't want -- things turn sour. It is this arrogance that has turned religion from a comfort and a positive guiding force into a disreputable establishment and a threat. Neil

I agree 100% with that.
- Hassan1
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #46 - November 18, 2008, 11:31 AM

Quote from: Lana on November 17, 2008, 06:26 PM
Quote from: Hassan1 on November 17, 2008, 12:39 PM
Quote from: Lana on November 15, 2008, 07:29 PM
Quote from: Hassan1 on November 15, 2008, 01:12 PM
Perhaps I haven't explained this concept well. To be a "Muslim" is to submit to God. So a "Muslim" of the past (ie pre-islam) who submits himself to one god, is no different from the "muslim" who submits himself to god today. Likewise, Islam means to "submit" - so those submitting themselves to Allah in the past were followers of Islam. This is regardless of any superflous (not the right word, but whatever) laws that were bought in by the cannon of Muhammad (pbuh).

I dont think any Muslim in their right mind would claim that Moses paid a 2.5% charity tax, or that he fasted in the month of Ramdan - but he will still be a Muslim and a follower of Islam because he submitted himself to the oneness of his lord.

Hope that cleared it up?

Hi Hassan1. It pains me to say this but, no, I don't think you answered my main question: How is present day Islam closer to Abraham's original message than present day Judaism?

Hello Lana,

I will refer you to what I said earlier:

Quote
With regards to your question, present day islam is equated to the monotheism that proceeded it.

The underyling and unyielding theological precept behind Islam is absolute submission to one god. This was the same for all rightly guided monotheists who lived before the advent of islam. That is to say, the original Jews, Xtians, Sabeans etc were "Muslim" in so much as they submitted themslves to their lord.

The fitrah means to have a natural dispositon towards one god (with islam being the oft-used word of interchange). So to say that every child is born with the fitrah is to say they have a inclination towards one god, or more accuratley, an inclination to submit to one god - which is what Islam teaches.

The present day "essence" of islam is closer to Abrahams teachings than that of judaism. Although Judaism (and Sikhism) are monotheistic faiths, the concept of submission is, I believe, unique to islam.

I am sorry if that sounds a bit garbaled, I'm still trying to grapple with it myself. Also, my argument may not align with traditional islamic belief - so I'll be sure to double check that with you too.

Hassan1

Thanks for your response, Hassan1. However, I'm still not convinced. It would like it of you could first define exactly what the original teachings of Abraham are, and then explain why Islam fulfills them and why Judaism falls short of them. For instance, if the it's all supposed to be about submission, how is Islam more submissive to God than Judaism?

Oh Lana! How many times must we dance this merry dance

The point I have hitherto trying to make is this: Islam is about submission to god. All the prophets in the past were focused on sbmission to god. The creed of abraham as well as the natural inclanation of humanity, is submission to one god. Today, islam is, as per my understanding, the only religion whose emphasis is submission to god.

Hope that made more sense?

...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #47 - November 18, 2008, 11:36 AM

Quote from: Hassan1 on November 18, 2008, 11:31 AM
The creed of abraham as well as the natural inclanation of humanity, is submission to one god.

Assertion. Can you provide evidence (bearing in mind the evidence must also deal with the historical bias towards polytheism)?

Quote
Today, islam is, as per my understanding, the only religion whose emphasis is submission to god.

Hope that made more sense?

Not really. Can you provide examples of religions that encourage rebellion against their respective deities?

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
- Calm
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #48 - November 18, 2008, 11:41 AM

Does anyone else get confused with Hassan and Hassan1?
I read Hassan1's post as if written by Hassan.
Though the posts are pretty interesting, I think 'Did Hassan change his mind'?
- neilmarr
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #49 - November 18, 2008, 11:42 AM

***the only religion whose emphasis is submission to god***

To god, Hassan1, or to those who claim to interpret his intetions and who also claim a mandate to enforce his laws as laid down in flawed and the patently man-written scriptures of all three major monotheisms? Neil

We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #50 - November 18, 2008, 11:53 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on November 18, 2008, 11:36 AM
Quote from: Hassan1 on November 18, 2008, 11:31 AM
The creed of abraham as well as the natural inclanation of humanity, is submission to one god.

Assertion. Can you provide evidence (bearing in mind the evidence must also deal with the historical bias towards polytheism)?

Hello Osmanthus -

No, would be the simple answer.

Quote
Not really. Can you provide examples of religions that encourage rebellion against their respective deities?

I am not sure I follow

PS - I am posting in Red from now on so as to avoid confusion between myself and Hassan.

...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #51 - November 18, 2008, 11:58 AM

Please do not start posting in red. It will not be legible with some of our themes (plus it just looks atrocious anyway).

I'm sure most people can tell your posts apart, particularly since you don't have an avatar and the other Hassan does.

Anyway, my point was that if you;re going to claim that Islam is the only religion that emphasises submission to the will of god then you are, in effect, claiming that other religions emphasise rebellion against the will of god. That is why I requested that you provide examples of such religions. Make sense?

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #52 - November 18, 2008, 11:59 AM

Quote from: learn2bcalm on November 18, 2008, 11:41 AM
Does anyone else get confused with Hassan and Hassan1?
I read Hassan1's post as if written by Hassan.
Though the posts are pretty interesting, I think 'Did Hassan change his mind'?

No, I do not, but then as an admin I need to pay attention to detail.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
- Hassan1
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #53 - November 18, 2008, 12:02 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on November 18, 2008, 11:58 AM
Please do not start posting in red. It will not be legible with some of our themes (plus it just looks atrocious anyway).

I'm sure most people can tell your posts apart, particularly since you don't have an avatar and the other Hassan does.

Anyway, my point was that if you;re going to claim that Islam is the only religion that emphasises submission to the will of god then you are, in effect, claiming that other religions emphasise rebellion against the will of god. That is why I requested that you provide examples of such religions. Make sense?

Back to Black then ala Miss Winehouse.

Let me think on your question for a bit...

...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #54 - November 18, 2008, 12:29 PM

Hassan1 with your statement 'Islam is the only religion that submits to God' you are implying that the Islamic way to relate to God is the superior way to relate to God or in fact the way God wants us to relate to him.

Look back at the earlier posts stating no-one is in a position to know what God wants if he exists.

Furthermore Christians say that they 'have a relationship' with God and they feel their approach to God is the superior approach.

Some religions may engage in periodic worship of their deity and so they might think their approach is the superior approach.

Right now you are working through the standard Islamic beliefs.

I can see that you are not afraid to look at each one.
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #55 - November 18, 2008, 01:39 PM

Quote from: learn2bcalm on November 18, 2008, 11:41 AM
Does anyone else get confused with Hassan and Hassan1?
I read Hassan1's post as if written by Hassan.
Though the posts are pretty interesting, I think 'Did Hassan change his mind'?

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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #56 - November 18, 2008, 01:48 PM

I like ur Avatar.
Quote from: Hassan on November 18, 2008, 01:39 PM
Quote from: learn2bcalm on November 18, 2008, 11:41 AM
Does anyone else get confused with Hassan and Hassan1?
I read Hassan1's post as if written by Hassan.
Though the posts are pretty interesting, I think 'Did Hassan change his mind'?

Look for my avatar - if it's not there - it's not me lol
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #57 - November 18, 2008, 02:08 PM

Quote from: learn2bcalm on November 18, 2008, 01:48 PM
I like ur Avatar.

He's a musician/civil-rights activist from the 60s called called Phil Ochs:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zMnrabYepLM
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #58 - November 18, 2008, 05:24 PM

Quote from: neilmarr on November 18, 2008, 10:10 AM
***ultimately - just as there is no undeniable evidence for God - there is no undeniable evidence that there is no God***

That the burden of proof is on the claimant, Hassan, and that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence have become tiresome arguments through repetition. This doesn't mean they're any the less valid. Cheers. Neil

Absolutely. If you'd not been exposed to the propaganda of the myth in the first place, why would you go and invent something like that anyway. You could say that millions of things might exist but you just don't have the proof. It's a crock.

Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
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Re: The Fitrah.
Reply #59 - November 18, 2008, 07:27 PM

Quote from: Lana on November 18, 2008, 03:57 AM
Quote from: fading on November 17, 2008, 10:58 PM
Quote from: Lana on November 17, 2008, 06:26 PM
Thanks for your response, Hassan1. However, I'm still not convinced. It would like it of you could first define exactly what the original teachings of Abraham are, and then explain why Islam fulfills them and why Judaism falls short of them. For instance, if the it's all supposed to be about submission, how is Islam more submissive to God than Judaism?

In brief, what they teach in the masjid is that the Jews and Christians went around tampering with the Bible and disobeying God while of course the Muslims haven't touched their divinely protected Quran which makes them the bestest invisible sky god worshipers EVER! Muslims also, laughably, teach that Muslims follow God's big list of dos and dont's, but we all know that's not true. Even Muslims know this is not true, hence the breast beating and woe is me from all of these famous dawahganda shaykhs and bloggers and such.

I understand that as being a belief within Islam, but I don't understand how he can justify the statement within the larger pool of objective thought, outside Islam. I mean, if you told a bunch of Jews that Islam follows the original message of Abraham better than Judaism does, they would find it absurd. It implies that the Jews did not take the message revealed to them (you know, if you buy into all that religious stuff) seriously, when, in fact, Jews have been faithfully cherishing and passing down the teachings of their religion (founded by Abraham) for thousands of years before Muhammad and (in the eyes of everyone who isn't Muslim) Islam was born.

Right. It's not Islaam's job to validate other people's beliefs. A Muslim might say, 'If they don't like it, tough luck,' just as someone else might say about his own religion's views on Islaam. Islam's teaching is what it is, and Christianity's is what it is, and so on. Why would or should Hasan justify an Islaamic belief in the larger pool of objective thought when Islaam teaches that it doesn't matter? The point of Islaam, or Christianity or a lot of other religions, isn't to make nice and accept someone else's path as a perfectly valid means to god.

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