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Theme Changer

 Topic: In heaven but still afraid

 (Read 8633 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • In heaven but still afraid
     OP - November 24, 2008, 04:24 PM

    I was just wondering if there exists any Islamic decree stating that once you reach heaven it is still possible for Allah to kick you out if you do something bad.

    If that is the case you'd obvioulsy still be living in fear of Allah and so my question is when does the living in fear end and the enjoyment begin.

  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #1 - November 24, 2008, 04:31 PM

    I was just wondering if there exists any Islamic decree stating that once you reach heaven it is still possible for Allah to kick you out if you do something bad.

    If that is the case you'd obvioulsy still be living in fear of Allah and so my question is when does the living in fear end and the enjoyment begin.




    I've never heard such a thing. As far as I know, once your on the good list, and you get in - it's party time. party!
  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #2 - November 24, 2008, 04:34 PM

    There is a belief that some of those in Hell will one day get a reprieve.

    Some even believe that everyone will be taken out of Hell one day.
  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #3 - November 24, 2008, 04:35 PM

    DOes that include Kaffirs Hassan?
    Then we have a reason to rejoice.
     parrot
  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #4 - November 24, 2008, 04:36 PM

    There is a belief that some of those in Hell will one day get a reprieve.

    Some even believe that everyone will be taken out of Hell one day.


    Except for the pharoah lol


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #5 - November 24, 2008, 04:45 PM

    Except for the pharoah lol


    Which one? Cheesy

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
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    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #6 - November 24, 2008, 05:13 PM

    I'm asking because in Islam Allah is transcendental and is not bound by any covenant or agreement as he is in other religions so theoretically you could get kicked out.


  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #7 - November 24, 2008, 05:16 PM

    DOes that include Kaffirs Hassan?
    Then we have a reason to rejoice.
     parrot


    There are some who believe that everyone - including Kafirs - will be taken out. I remember my sister used to have a big book written by an Indian Maulana that said this and quoted some Hadith. But it is not a mainstream belief - at least it never used to be. But these days who knows - after all some modernists are now in the process of changing the bit that says you can "Hit" your wife into "Leave them alone" or even "make love to them"  Roll Eyes
  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #8 - November 24, 2008, 05:18 PM

    after all they are now in the process of changing the bit the means you can "Hit" your wife into "Leave them alone" or even "make love to them"  Roll Eyes


    Always makes me chuckle when I hear the "it means beat it, as in street slang, beat it buddy"  Cheesy

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #9 - November 24, 2008, 05:21 PM

    I'm asking because in Islam Allah is transcendental and is not bound by any covenant or agreement as he is in other religions so theoretically you could get kicked out.


    Just off the top of my head I'm pretty sure the Qur'an "promises" (Wa'd) the believers heaven forever and it says "Allah does not break his promises".


  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #10 - November 24, 2008, 05:26 PM

    after all they are now in the process of changing the bit the means you can "Hit" your wife into "Leave them alone" or even "make love to them"  Roll Eyes


    Always makes me chuckle when I hear the "it means beat it, as in street slang, beat it buddy"  Cheesy


    It makes me so angry when I talk to people who "insist" it means "Beat it" or "Leave them alone" and they quote examples of how Daraba can mean different things - but they are idiots and know nothing about Arabic language.
  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #11 - November 24, 2008, 06:21 PM

    I'm asking because in Islam Allah is transcendental and is not bound by any covenant or agreement as he is in other religions so theoretically you could get kicked out.


    Just off the top of my head I'm pretty sure the Qur'an "promises" (Wa'd) the believers heaven forever and it says "Allah does not break his promises".





    Not to forget there could be no reason to be booted out of heaven, since everyone who will end up there is obediant anyway, and of course everything is mostly halal, plus human emotions that are considered bad, like lust, envy, greed etc will no longer be within humanity.

     

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #12 - November 24, 2008, 09:10 PM

    If it means make love, then that's pretty much advocating raping your wife!

    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #13 - November 24, 2008, 09:34 PM

    There are hundreds of verses condemning the unbelievers to hell. We find Allah saying he will never forgive non-believers. They will abide forever in hell. Their skins being replaced over and over again so they can taste the torment of hell fire.

    4:56 Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment.

    4:168 Lo! those who disbelieve and deal in wrong, Allah will never forgive them, neither will He guide them unto a road, 
    4:169 Except the road of hell, wherein they will abide for ever. And that is ever easy for Allah.

    Therefore to claim that non believers will eventually be promoted to paradise is nonsensical and only an attempt to either make Islam look benevolent or the commentators inability swallow the intolerance that is Islam.

    As for those in Paradise being afraid of expulsion there is no such concept as far as I'm aware. In paradise everything that is illegal here on earth is legal; wine, women outside marriage, youthful boys, pearls and jewels.

    Also remember there are seven levels of heaven. Jihadists make it to the higher levels. Adam is in the lowest, Abraham is in the 6th level Muhammad will be in the seventh with Allah. Jesus is in the 3rd or 4th I believe, Moses is in one above him.

    Whether one can move around among the heavenly levels, I'm not sure as I've never read of such an occurrence.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #14 - November 24, 2008, 10:16 PM



    Therefore to claim that non believers will eventually be promoted to paradise is nonsensical and only an attempt to either make Islam look benevolent or the commentators inability swallow the intolerance that is Islam.


    Not for nothing, but Ibn Taymiya is not exactly an icon of bowing to the fear of non Muslims or wanting to make Islaam look more tolerant, and he believed that eventually the fires of hell would be extinguished because 'god's mercy prevails over his wrath.'  I believe ibn Arabi believed this as well, interestingly enough.  Neither of them lived in a time or place where they felt compelled to make Islaam look like it conformed to 20th century Western ideals of tolerance. 

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #15 - November 27, 2008, 01:35 PM

    Not to forget there could be no reason to be booted out of heaven, since everyone who will end up there is obediant anyway, and of course everything is mostly halal, plus human emotions that are considered bad, like lust, envy, greed etc will no longer be within humanity.

    How is that possible? One of the theist arguments for the PoE is that one cannot appreciate the good in the world without the bad.

    Also if heaven is just full of good emotions then would this not make people become very, very spoilt?
  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #16 - November 27, 2008, 01:55 PM

    Not to forget there could be no reason to be booted out of heaven, since everyone who will end up there is obediant anyway, and of course everything is mostly halal, plus human emotions that are considered bad, like lust, envy, greed etc will no longer be within humanity.

    How is that possible? One of the theist arguments for the PoE is that one cannot appreciate the good in the world without the bad.

    Also if heaven is just full of good emotions then would this not make people become very, very spoilt?


    Don't ask me lol this is the arguement used back at me by family members when I talked of being one wife among many in heaven, and about how unfair it was to have to continue a practise on heaven that women have hated on Earth.

    I was told not to worry, since jealousy wouldn't effect me in heaven, and neither would sadness, I would be robotically happy to all intents and purposes.

    It didn't wash with me then and it doesn't now.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #17 - November 27, 2008, 04:00 PM

    DOes that include Kaffirs Hassan?
    Then we have a reason to rejoice.
     parrot


    There are some who believe that everyone - including Kafirs - will be taken out. I remember my sister used to have a big book written by an Indian Maulana that said this and quoted some Hadith. But it is not a mainstream belief - at least it never used to be. But these days who knows - after all some modernists are now in the process of changing the bit that says you can "Hit" your wife into "Leave them alone" or even "make love to them"  Roll Eyes

    Well, the origins of the word "to fvck" in german meant "to strike", so preach to them, and emmigrate their beds and strike them.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #18 - November 28, 2008, 09:32 AM

    Not to forget there could be no reason to be booted out of heaven, since everyone who will end up there is obediant anyway, and of course everything is mostly halal, plus human emotions that are considered bad, like lust, envy, greed etc will no longer be within humanity.

    How is that possible? One of the theist arguments for the PoE is that one cannot appreciate the good in the world without the bad.

    Also if heaven is just full of good emotions then would this not make people become very, very spoilt?


    Don't ask me lol this is the arguement used back at me by family members when I talked of being one wife among many in heaven, and about how unfair it was to have to continue a practise on heaven that women have hated on Earth.

    I was told not to worry, since jealousy wouldn't effect me in heaven, and neither would sadness, I would be robotically happy to all intents and purposes.

    It didn't wash with me then and it doesn't now.

    That's a perfect example of how Islam ignores the sexual needs of the woman, it's like we don't have any  Roll Eyes As for being robotically happy, that is an obstruction of free will and it is brainwash.

    Heaven sounds horrible.
  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #19 - November 28, 2008, 01:39 PM



    Therefore to claim that non believers will eventually be promoted to paradise is nonsensical and only an attempt to either make Islam look benevolent or the commentators inability swallow the intolerance that is Islam.


    Not for nothing, but Ibn Taymiya is not exactly an icon of bowing to the fear of non Muslims or wanting to make Islaam look more tolerant, and he believed that eventually the fires of hell would be extinguished because 'god's mercy prevails over his wrath.'  I believe ibn Arabi believed this as well, interestingly enough.  Neither of them lived in a time or place where they felt compelled to make Islaam look like it conformed to 20th century Western ideals of tolerance. 

    Ho Ho Ho! In the back of their minds, those Two little "Allah's Elves" were a little worried 'they' might also end up in a hell.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #20 - November 28, 2008, 01:45 PM

    I'm asking because in Islam Allah is transcendental and is not bound by any covenant or agreement as he is in other religions so theoretically you could get kicked out.


    Just off the top of my head I'm pretty sure the Qur'an "promises" (Wa'd) the believers heaven forever and it says "Allah does not break his promises".



    Not to forget there could be no reason to be booted out of heaven, since everyone who will end up there is obediant anyway, and of course everything is mostly halal, plus human emotions that are considered bad, like lust, envy, greed etc will no longer be within humanity.
     

    I think muslims, like all humans actually, been practicing all their life on how to detect people they can or can not trust, sane or insane, truthful or deceiving, confident or over-the-edge. And ultimately, between themselves and the wall, I do not think they trust this allah person.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #21 - December 01, 2008, 10:27 AM

    I think muslims, like all humans actually, been practicing all their life on how to detect people they can or can not trust, sane or insane, truthful or deceiving, confident or over-the-edge. And ultimately, between themselves and the wall, I do not think they trust this allah person.

    I don't agree with you there, from the conversations I have had with the more devoted muslims/theists it seems God is the one being they trust without question.
  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #22 - December 05, 2008, 06:03 PM

    I think muslims, like all humans actually, been practicing all their life on how to detect people they can or can not trust, sane or insane, truthful or deceiving, confident or over-the-edge. And ultimately, between themselves and the wall, I do not think they trust this allah person.

    I don't agree with you there, from the conversations I have had with the more devoted muslims/theists it seems God is the one being they trust without question.

    Of course they do trust his strength and power and capacity for revenge and burning and deceiving and using any strategem to win. But then at some time, as they got older and start 'preparing', do you really believe anyone will feel comfortable spending eternity with such a being?

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #23 - December 07, 2008, 02:03 PM

    I think muslims, like all humans actually, been practicing all their life on how to detect people they can or can not trust, sane or insane, truthful or deceiving, confident or over-the-edge. And ultimately, between themselves and the wall, I do not think they trust this allah person.

    I don't agree with you there, from the conversations I have had with the more devoted muslims/theists it seems God is the one being they trust without question.

    Of course they do trust his strength and power and capacity for revenge and burning and deceiving and using any strategem to win. But then at some time, as they got older and start 'preparing', do you really believe anyone will feel comfortable spending eternity with such a being?


    It certainly does seem this way. Although they do not see God the way you have described him; they see him as loving, etc. Living a whole life as a muslim tends to disallusion people somewhat, they can no longer see any negatives, the refuse to. They've been taught from birth that heaven is bliss and God is perfect, this is what they will expect, thinking anything else is wrong and they will not acknowledge such a thing. Ofcourse there are those who break away but it is not anywhere near as prevalent as it needs to be. I guess Islams view on apostasy is to blame. This is what frightens me about Islam the most.
  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #24 - December 09, 2008, 08:41 PM

    I think muslims, like all humans actually, been practicing all their life on how to detect people they can or can not trust, sane or insane, truthful or deceiving, confident or over-the-edge. And ultimately, between themselves and the wall, I do not think they trust this allah person.

    I don't agree with you there, from the conversations I have had with the more devoted muslims/theists it seems God is the one being they trust without question.

    Of course they do trust his strength and power and capacity for revenge and burning and deceiving and using any strategem to win. But then at some time, as they got older and start 'preparing', do you really believe anyone will feel comfortable spending eternity with such a being?


    It certainly does seem this way. Although they do not see God the way you have described him; they see him as loving, etc. Living a whole life as a muslim tends to disallusion people somewhat, they can no longer see any negatives, the refuse to. They've been taught from birth that heaven is bliss and God is perfect, this is what they will expect, thinking anything else is wrong and they will not acknowledge such a thing. Ofcourse there are those who break away but it is not anywhere near as prevalent as it needs to be. I guess Islams view on apostasy is to blame. This is what frightens me about Islam the most.

    That works on kids Peruvian. As people get older they start seeing through the illusion. For some, like you, they leave, for most, they will just maintain decorum in public, and will even publicly defend the monster all the way to their uncertain grave. It is the same reason people will dedicate an inordinate amount of time of their lives studying and justifying the religion. It is because inside them, they do not feel well.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #25 - December 10, 2008, 10:34 AM

    I think muslims, like all humans actually, been practicing all their life on how to detect people they can or can not trust, sane or insane, truthful or deceiving, confident or over-the-edge. And ultimately, between themselves and the wall, I do not think they trust this allah person.

    I don't agree with you there, from the conversations I have had with the more devoted muslims/theists it seems God is the one being they trust without question.

    Of course they do trust his strength and power and capacity for revenge and burning and deceiving and using any strategem to win. But then at some time, as they got older and start 'preparing', do you really believe anyone will feel comfortable spending eternity with such a being?


    It certainly does seem this way. Although they do not see God the way you have described him; they see him as loving, etc. Living a whole life as a muslim tends to disallusion people somewhat, they can no longer see any negatives, the refuse to. They've been taught from birth that heaven is bliss and God is perfect, this is what they will expect, thinking anything else is wrong and they will not acknowledge such a thing. Ofcourse there are those who break away but it is not anywhere near as prevalent as it needs to be. I guess Islams view on apostasy is to blame. This is what frightens me about Islam the most.

    That works on kids Peruvian. As people get older they start seeing through the illusion. For some, like you, they leave, for most, they will just maintain decorum in public, and will even publicly defend the monster all the way to their uncertain grave. It is the same reason people will dedicate an inordinate amount of time of their lives studying and justifying the religion. It is because inside them, they do not feel well.

    That is an interesting point, I haven't thought of it that way. Although another reason for researching religion would be that they actually are interested in it and want to know more to be closer to their God or to clear up misunderstandings. I'm not sure if your reasons will apply to everyone. Denial will play a part in many people. It's also natural to feel doubtful at times but I don't think that's enough to let people see through the illusion. I know a great number of people are actually agnostics deep down but then I'm quite sure many are agnostic theists rather than agnostic atheists.
  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #26 - December 10, 2008, 02:54 PM

    I think muslims, like all humans actually, been practicing all their life on how to detect people they can or can not trust, sane or insane, truthful or deceiving, confident or over-the-edge. And ultimately, between themselves and the wall, I do not think they trust this allah person.

    I don't agree with you there, from the conversations I have had with the more devoted muslims/theists it seems God is the one being they trust without question.

    Of course they do trust his strength and power and capacity for revenge and burning and deceiving and using any strategem to win. But then at some time, as they got older and start 'preparing', do you really believe anyone will feel comfortable spending eternity with such a being?


    It certainly does seem this way. Although they do not see God the way you have described him; they see him as loving, etc. Living a whole life as a muslim tends to disallusion people somewhat, they can no longer see any negatives, the refuse to. They've been taught from birth that heaven is bliss and God is perfect, this is what they will expect, thinking anything else is wrong and they will not acknowledge such a thing. Ofcourse there are those who break away but it is not anywhere near as prevalent as it needs to be. I guess Islams view on apostasy is to blame. This is what frightens me about Islam the most.

    That works on kids Peruvian. As people get older they start seeing through the illusion. For some, like you, they leave, for most, they will just maintain decorum in public, and will even publicly defend the monster all the way to their uncertain grave. It is the same reason people will dedicate an inordinate amount of time of their lives studying and justifying the religion. It is because inside them, they do not feel well.

    That is an interesting point, I haven't thought of it that way. Although another reason for researching religion would be that they actually are interested in it and want to know more to be closer to their God or to clear up misunderstandings.

    Yes and they rarely do clear the misunderstandings, and the time spent obsessing is quite sad, because we are most receptive to education prior to our twenties, we are also most productive at least quantity-wise in our twenties. Once those years are robbed and distracted in drugs or religion, we would be kind of screwed for life.

    I'm not sure if your reasons will apply to everyone. Denial will play a part in many people. It's also natural to feel doubtful at times but I don't think that's enough to let people see through the illusion. I know a great number of people are actually agnostics deep down but then I'm quite sure many are agnostic theists rather than agnostic atheists.

    Seeing through the illusion of a loving master generally comes long before any form of agnosticism occurs. However, my opinion that most muslims are personally afraid of allah is only based on my observation of an islamic society that can speak arabic. I do not know how islam is packaged to indonesians or indians.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #27 - December 11, 2008, 12:29 PM

    That is an interesting point, I haven't thought of it that way. Although another reason for researching religion would be that they actually are interested in it and want to know more to be closer to their God or to clear up misunderstandings.

    Yes and they rarely do clear the misunderstandings, and the time spent obsessing is quite sad, because we are most receptive to education prior to our twenties, we are also most productive at least quantity-wise in our twenties. Once those years are robbed and distracted in drugs or religion, we would be kind of screwed for life.

    The time spent obsessing is out of fear of hell so I don't blame them. But I have seen many cloud their own judgement so they can believe what they want to believe about religion. I have spoken to muslims who believe that God is absolutely perfect and use the 'we have a feeble mind/God knows best' excuses so many times to explain things that I feel even they disagree with. I think this is maybe what you are talking about? I've been in similar situations myself where I used to use those excuses and from this I can tell you it is too easy to trick yourself into believing these doubts are nothing.

    I'm not sure if your reasons will apply to everyone. Denial will play a part in many people. It's also natural to feel doubtful at times but I don't think that's enough to let people see through the illusion. I know a great number of people are actually agnostics deep down but then I'm quite sure many are agnostic theists rather than agnostic atheists.

    Seeing through the illusion of a loving master generally comes long before any form of agnosticism occurs. However, my opinion that most muslims are personally afraid of allah is only based on my observation of an islamic society that can speak arabic. I do not know how islam is packaged to indonesians or indians.

    I don't disagree with you there, I'm sure most theists who's religion preaches of hell are afraid of God. My observations are from those who don't speak arabic but the average muslim in the UK who has been fed bull by mosques and books that tell of 'scientific miracles'. My dad being the main one, he constantly mentions things written in the Quran that can be attributed to being even remotely scientific. He really does feel that Quran is perfect and always talks of how great Islam is.

    The younger muslims I have seen tend to be in denial of any criticism of the Quran and make excuses each time. They have become too accustomed to thinking it is perfect.

    It's possible to both fear and love at the same time but I guess this begs the question of is it really love or just fear? I do know there are some muslims who go past the fear and have only love for Allah but one has to ask do they really fear God deep down?

    Saying this you probably have better experience than me as I'm still quite young and haven't chatted to many adults, just the devoted muslims on the internet who constantly defend and deny, many of whom are young.
  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #28 - December 11, 2008, 01:04 PM

    That is an interesting point, I haven't thought of it that way. Although another reason for researching religion would be that they actually are interested in it and want to know more to be closer to their God or to clear up misunderstandings.

    Yes and they rarely do clear the misunderstandings, and the time spent obsessing is quite sad, because we are most receptive to education prior to our twenties, we are also most productive at least quantity-wise in our twenties. Once those years are robbed and distracted in drugs or religion, we would be kind of screwed for life.

    The time spent obsessing is out of fear of hell so I don't blame them. But I have seen many cloud their own judgement so they can believe what they want to believe about religion. I have spoken to muslims who believe that God is absolutely perfect and use the 'we have a feeble mind/God knows best' excuses so many times to explain things that I feel even they disagree with. I think this is maybe what you are talking about? I've been in similar situations myself where I used to use those excuses and from this I can tell you it is too easy to trick yourself into believing these doubts are nothing.

    Yes "Allahu Alamm - Allah knows more/best" is so widely used and many scholars always even sign off with it. What I see is that, the same need to causes people to say "Allahu Alamm", is the same that causes them to question. They often do believe they have a feeble mind. But that "feeble mind" is not that feeble and it will punish them at every chance it gets.

    I'm not sure if your reasons will apply to everyone. Denial will play a part in many people. It's also natural to feel doubtful at times but I don't think that's enough to let people see through the illusion. I know a great number of people are actually agnostics deep down but then I'm quite sure many are agnostic theists rather than agnostic atheists.

    Seeing through the illusion of a loving master generally comes long before any form of agnosticism occurs. However, my opinion that most muslims are personally afraid of allah is only based on my observation of an islamic society that can speak arabic. I do not know how islam is packaged to indonesians or indians.

    I don't disagree with you there, I'm sure most theists who's religion preaches of hell are afraid of God. My observations are from those who don't speak arabic but the average muslim in the UK who has been fed bull by mosques and books that tell of 'scientific miracles'. My dad being the main one, he constantly mentions things written in the Quran that can be attributed to being even remotely scientific. He really does feel that Quran is perfect and always talks of how great Islam is.

    The younger muslims I have seen tend to be in denial of any criticism of the Quran and make excuses each time. They have become too accustomed to thinking it is perfect.

    It's possible to both fear and love at the same time but I guess this begs the question of is it really love or just fear? I do know there are some muslims who go past the fear and have only love for Allah but one has to ask do they really fear God deep down?

    Saying this you probably have better experience than me as I'm still quite young and haven't chatted to many adults, just the devoted muslims on the internet who constantly defend and deny, many of whom are young.

    Younger ones are screwed. They will need time and life experience. As for the older ones, we need to look through the facade they put forward.

    My grand mother was a very religious christian woman. Prayed every morning and night, and went to church almost everyday in her later 10 yrs, at 7am in the morning. Walking. you would never hear her quoting crap from the bible. She was comfortable with it. It was her morning exercise. Quoting and preaching is for people not comfortable with the text. They need to confirm and re-confirm. Their mind is not as feeble as they claim it to be.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: In heaven but still afraid
     Reply #29 - December 11, 2008, 09:21 PM

    That is an interesting point, I haven't thought of it that way. Although another reason for researching religion would be that they actually are interested in it and want to know more to be closer to their God or to clear up misunderstandings.

    Yes and they rarely do clear the misunderstandings, and the time spent obsessing is quite sad, because we are most receptive to education prior to our twenties, we are also most productive at least quantity-wise in our twenties. Once those years are robbed and distracted in drugs or religion, we would be kind of screwed for life.

    The time spent obsessing is out of fear of hell so I don't blame them. But I have seen many cloud their own judgement so they can believe what they want to believe about religion. I have spoken to muslims who believe that God is absolutely perfect and use the 'we have a feeble mind/God knows best' excuses so many times to explain things that I feel even they disagree with. I think this is maybe what you are talking about? I've been in similar situations myself where I used to use those excuses and from this I can tell you it is too easy to trick yourself into believing these doubts are nothing.

    I'm not sure if your reasons will apply to everyone. Denial will play a part in many people. It's also natural to feel doubtful at times but I don't think that's enough to let people see through the illusion. I know a great number of people are actually agnostics deep down but then I'm quite sure many are agnostic theists rather than agnostic atheists.

    Seeing through the illusion of a loving master generally comes long before any form of agnosticism occurs. However, my opinion that most muslims are personally afraid of allah is only based on my observation of an islamic society that can speak arabic. I do not know how islam is packaged to indonesians or indians.

    I don't disagree with you there, I'm sure most theists who's religion preaches of hell are afraid of God. My observations are from those who don't speak arabic but the average muslim in the UK who has been fed bull by mosques and books that tell of 'scientific miracles'. My dad being the main one, he constantly mentions things written in the Quran that can be attributed to being even remotely scientific. He really does feel that Quran is perfect and always talks of how great Islam is.

    The younger muslims I have seen tend to be in denial of any criticism of the Quran and make excuses each time. They have become too accustomed to thinking it is perfect.

    It's possible to both fear and love at the same time but I guess this begs the question of is it really love or just fear? I do know there are some muslims who go past the fear and have only love for Allah but one has to ask do they really fear God deep down?

    Saying this you probably have better experience than me as I'm still quite young and haven't chatted to many adults, just the devoted muslims on the internet who constantly defend and deny, many of whom are young.


    This is so true. I went to mosques before and I asked questions to the imams, and the only answer they could give me when I asked them a tough question was "well, Allah knows best!". If muslims keep on denying and denying any sort of criticism, its because they know the criticism is true. Deep down I think a lot of muslims know Islam is false, they are just too afraid to actually accept it. The fear of hellfire is probably the biggest reason why they don't leave Islam. Its pounded into their mind and its hard to get rid of.

    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
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