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 Topic: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam

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  • The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     OP - November 27, 2008, 05:26 PM

    This maybe a difficult subject to talk about - but what do you think are the psychological effects - if any - of rejecting Islam?

  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #1 - November 27, 2008, 09:25 PM

    By the time someone takes the decision to leave a doctrine, that person first must have come to a conclusion that this doctrine will harm them, as well as loved ones, considerably more then any service the doctrine offers.

    The harm has to be perceived so much that, even a comforting neutrality or a secularism becomes too uncomfortable.


    Of course once a decision is reached to apostate, the apostate still has to disassociate from most of the services that the religion offers, which can be hard. Specially if One of the services offered was an identity.

    For example, there are people who, like most of us, never achieved a title, a Sir, or a Doctor, or a PhD, yet they can go around and be called a 'Haj'. What will you give them instead once you take the Haj title aways from them?

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #2 - November 27, 2008, 09:47 PM

    It's quite individual. People reject Islam for what are often different personal, or theological/ideational/spiritual reasons.

    One that seems to crop up is guilt. Another a sense of immense moral and personal freedom without the spectre of (a panoptic) god.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #3 - November 27, 2008, 10:06 PM

    By the time someone takes the decision to leave a doctrine, that person first must have come to a conclusion that this doctrine will harm them, as well as loved ones, considerably more then any service the doctrine offers.


    Or that they simply don't believe in it, it is not useful, or explains the world, to them?

    Quote
    Of course once a decision is reached to apostate, the apostate still has to disassociate from most of the services that the religion offers, which can be hard. Specially if One of the services offered was an identity.

    For example, there are people who, like most of us, never achieved a title, a Sir, or a Doctor, or a PhD, yet they can go around and be called a 'Haj'. What will you give them instead once you take the Haj title aways from them?


    What you describe is 'status' rather than 'identity', as such. But yes, identity (and belonging) are integral to religion, particularly in Islam, as the existential sense of community that is built into it is very strong.

    Loss of identity, lonliness, guilt are all related to the above.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #4 - November 27, 2008, 11:33 PM

    By the time someone takes the decision to leave a doctrine, that person first must have come to a conclusion that this doctrine will harm them, as well as loved ones, considerably more then any service the doctrine offers.


    Or that they simply don't believe in it, it is not useful, or explains the world, to them?

    The 'simply do not believe' are exceptions to the rule, they are too privileged and few. To just leave or switch your faith, is valid with most of the Christian (and Western) world today "I like this ideology today but I like this other One tomorrow". With islam, there is always a price. People will always leave islam only after they come to the conclusion that it harms them more then it serves some of their needs.

    Quote
    Of course once a decision is reached to apostate, the apostate still has to disassociate from most of the services that the religion offers, which can be hard. Specially if One of the services offered was an identity.

    For example, there are people who, like most of us, never achieved a title, a Sir, or a Doctor, or a PhD, yet they can go around and be called a 'Haj'. What will you give them instead once you take the Haj title aways from them?


    What you describe is 'status' rather than 'identity', as such. But yes, identity (and belonging) are integral to religion, particularly in Islam, as the existential sense of community that is built into it is very strong.

    Loss of identity, lonliness, guilt are all related to the above.

    True, I meant Status as well as Identity and status is only a subset of our identity.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #5 - November 28, 2008, 12:04 AM

    The 'simply do not believe' are exceptions to the rule, they are too privileged and few. To just leave or switch your faith, is valid with most of the Christian (and Western) world today "I like this ideology today but I like this other One tomorrow". With islam, there is always a price. People will always leave islam only after they come to the conclusion that it harms them more then it serves some of their needs.


    I agree insofar as real/percieved interests are a definite unperpinning [of ideology]. It's not an economic calculation, though - this is about psychology. Religious belief is conditioned into people.

    Quote
    True, I meant Status as well as Identity and status is only a subset of our identity.


    I don't think a treatise on 'memetic social capital' is appropriate here, hence not blurring that distinction.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #6 - November 28, 2008, 02:46 AM

    As I am still in the confusion state, I still do not know what to look ahead to... but its been years of struggling for me, the decision to leave was just the tip of the iceberg... as you know most of us know more about islam than the average muslim, but I have always asked myself... if I reached this conclusion, why didn't the so called scholars discover it?

    To me, coming out to friends and family has a big X on it... and that builds up some pressure.

    Good topic... cheers
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #7 - November 28, 2008, 04:49 AM

    As I am still in the confusion state, I still do not know what to look ahead to... but its been years of struggling for me, the decision to leave was just the tip of the iceberg... as you know most of us know more about islam than the average muslim, but I have always asked myself... if I reached this conclusion, why didn't the so called scholars discover it?

    Depends which scholars you ask. Muslim scholars have 'perfect Quran' imprinted into their minds and this will affect the way they read it. Non-muslim scholars have come up with quite a few criticisms.

    There's also all the laws for apostasy that will scare many people from criticising. Over the years any body who has displayed concerns openly and starts to question the Quran is never taken seriously and tend to be threatened or killed.

    It makes you wonder how much has been hidden from us. Luckily there are quite a few books that we can easily get our hands on now that criticise Islam and the Quran. The only question is who do we believe, the sceptics or the apologists?

    Something that made me sceptical of muslim scholars was the way they over-reacted to criticisms of Islam, and also to any insults. I've also noticed many muslims do not know the difference between criticism and insult.
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #8 - November 28, 2008, 08:10 AM

    As I am still in the confusion state, I still do not know what to look ahead to... but its been years of struggling for me, the decision to leave was just the tip of the iceberg... as you know most of us know more about islam than the average muslim, but I have always asked myself... if I reached this conclusion, why didn't the so called scholars discover it?

    To me, coming out to friends and family has a big X on it... and that builds up some pressure.

    Good topic... cheers

    Scholars have too much investment into it and nothing else to do if they go against islam. Not to mention the over-high status that their society places them in and the expectations they put on them.

    Also just like western medicine only seems to accept type A personalities into the medical field, the existing scholars are very careful about what type of personality they permit into the circle.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #9 - November 28, 2008, 08:35 AM

    The 'simply do not believe' are exceptions to the rule, they are too privileged and few. To just leave or switch your faith, is valid with most of the Christian (and Western) world today "I like this ideology today but I like this other One tomorrow". With islam, there is always a price. People will always leave islam only after they come to the conclusion that it harms them more then it serves some of their needs.


    I agree insofar as real/percieved interests are a definite unperpinning [of ideology]. It's not an economic calculation, though - this is about psychology. Religious belief is conditioned into people.

    I have put a lot of thought into this, and I would not mind discussing the matter further perhaps you can punch few holes in my opinion.

    We can use all the psychology we want, ultimately that psychology will only demonstrate to us that the main reason someone apostates, is when they perceive more harms then services from the religion.

    You have to understand that many people, specially as we get older, will realize that religions are bogus yet still cling to the religion.

    Here is a perceived service:  man being given the power to control the women in his house.
    Here is the racket: Many prohibitive religions make it so the men grow up lacking basic knowledge & experience about women. And then have an entire set of rules to make up for that lack of experience at the expense of oppressing the women (i.e. divorce rules, beating rules, polygamy rules)

    Now such a man will have stronger motives to remain in his religion. At least until he finds a different way of how to handle the women in his life.

    Here is a perceived service: A religion promises to offer you continuity, to protect your kids from outside influence of cults like "Jehovah's bitches" or "Scientology". Also while you are at work 12hrs a day, we will be with your kids and educate them in a certain way.
    Here is the racket: Such a religion could be worse or as bad or almost as bad as 'Jehovah's witnesses'.  As for education, that religion will drown the kids in illogical fallacies and ends up red herringing your kids till they grow old.

    The price of such a racket is that, the kids will spend an inordinate amount of time trying to understand the religion, or drown in rituals, and then become much less productive and much less knowledgeable because they spent their lives reading senseless books instead of learning about & creating philosophy, social science, science, sex, arts, etc.

    Here is a perceived service:  No pain, No gain. We offer you to reward you for pain. We will even impose some pain on you to increase your gains, now go do ablution and get on your knees Five times a day.
    Here is the racket: Once people start investing into the religion, they expect a return and it becomes harder for them to walk away.

    Here is a perceived service:  The leaders are worshiped.
    Here is the racket: No racket in this one, you accept a leadership position, lead them my way, and I will get the sheeple to serve you. Except for the fact that murder and backstabbing becomes the norm and the leader will 'always' live in a precarious position. Ask almost every khalifa, before they got murdered of course.


    So Panoptic, when you discuss religion with someone, always find out what services the religion offers to them first. The more senile the arguments they make, the more you should realize that there is something else holding them onto that religion the arguments they just made.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #10 - November 28, 2008, 08:50 AM

    One effect I've observed in myself is an increase in anxiety, fear and panic-attacks over all sorts of daily matters, both minor and major. The sorts of things that I might have deferred to God and trusted that he would "make it all turn out ok"

    Of course it's difficult to separate what is specifically a result of rejecting Islam and what is simply a result of other factors and I have always been a worrier.

    But I am much more anxious, insecure and fearful of things 'going wrong' than I used to be and I think the feeling that there is no Divine safety net is a factor. (Even though I do believe in God - that belief is too undefined to provide much comfort.)
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #11 - November 28, 2008, 11:11 AM

    This maybe a difficult subject to talk about - but what do you think are the psychological effects - if any - of rejecting Islam?


    For me the psychological effects of having left Islam are that I am much more relaxed, confident, I don't have irrational fears, I can see things for what they really are and not attribute them to some supernatural force, I am more tolerant, I have a greater desire to understand the human mind and the physical world, etc.

    Basically it has been a very very positive effect!

    Z
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #12 - November 28, 2008, 11:23 AM

    Hi Hassan,
    I have to admit I went through these thiongs like anxiety, panic-attacks etc earlier on when I had just given up... i believe this is a result of ones brain having to rewire itself - ie to get rid off the conditioning.  I was also constantly thinking how my family would react, whether I was letting them down, etc...
    This probably lasted for about a year for me...
    Having said that, as I mentioned above, for many years afterwards I have been growing in confidence, tolerance etc and I now feel that I am the strongest I have ever been psychologically.

    Stay in there - I'm sure this is just a temporary thing as I said it takes time for ones brain to readjust itself - I can categorically say that its worth it.

    Take care,
    Z
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #13 - November 28, 2008, 11:32 AM

    I dunno. I've always been an easy going guy, and still am. Islam added to it for me. If something was going wrong, I'd say to myself, there's nothing I could've done to change it (qadr), except try to act different next time, and just deal with what I have now.

    I used not to give a shit about what anybody thought of me, but the threat of death has stifled that a little. I converted to Islam, grew a beard, prayed 5 times a day, didn't give a shit about what anyone thought of me (although I wasn't rude). Now I pretend I believe and adhere to something I don't anymore. I don't think anyone would try to kill me (except maybe a few zealots I know), but I want to avoid confrontation, censuring, excommunication from old friends, little kids who look up to me...

    Now I'm just a crypto rebel.  wacko



    I'm not as comforted as I used to be; I'm back at square one with my pre-Islamic angst. I might be a little more confidant though, in being acquainted with some of the answers (no longer satisfactory) offered though.



    In the beginning of my doubts and disbelief of Islam, I was very angsty. I heard the phrase used 'Dark Night of the Soul', I thought it fit well. It took me a year to get over it, and I still feel it a little bit, I call it my 'mourning the death of God' phase. I needed for their to be purpose and direction, reassurance and love of a creator in my life, so suddenly yanked out from under me. I'm learning to adjust, to make up my own purpose and direction, reassure and love myself, be my own 'God', make my own law. Fun times.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #14 - November 28, 2008, 11:50 AM

    How can one go form rejecting Islam to still believing in a god seems like clutching at straws. Agnosticism would make more sense.
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #15 - November 28, 2008, 11:59 AM

    How can one go form rejecting Islam to still believing in a god seems like clutching at straws. Agnosticism would make more sense.


    So what do you think the psychological effect of rejecting Islam has had on you, KT?
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #16 - November 28, 2008, 12:05 PM

    How can one go form rejecting Islam to still believing in a god seems like clutching at straws. Agnosticism would make more sense.


    So what do you think the psychological effect of rejecting Islam has had on you, KT?


    But, he is still a cultural muslim, i guess?
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #17 - November 28, 2008, 12:19 PM

    This maybe a difficult subject to talk about - but what do you think are the psychological effects - if any - of rejecting Islam?


    For me the psychological effects of having left Islam are that I am much more relaxed, confident, I don't have irrational fears, I can see things for what they really are and not attribute them to some supernatural force, I am more tolerant, I have a greater desire to understand the human mind and the physical world, etc.

    Basically it has been a very very positive effect!

    Z


    Same thing here, although I'm not really out yet.

    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #18 - November 28, 2008, 01:23 PM

    How can one go form rejecting Islam to still believing in a god seems like clutching at straws. Agnosticism would make more sense.

    Because the islamic god is that empty, that many people just prefer to substitute it with a more useful and less harmful god.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #19 - November 28, 2008, 02:26 PM

    How can one go form rejecting Islam to still believing in a god seems like clutching at straws. Agnosticism would make more sense.


    So what do you think the psychological effect of rejecting Islam has had on you, KT?


    Well many, firstly am still not sure if I should attack Islam or not, but I do realize it needs to be attacked (intellectually) and be shown to lack any divinity, which would make the society progress more. I think for me, I find it hard to see others attacking Islam, its fine when I do it, but when others do it it almost feels like an attack on me, and when women do it exmuslim or not that is the worst, that really gets me mad, and I don't even know why! but there are still many things in Islam I agree with, and in fact I very fond of.

    Realizing Islam is not true, has made me suicidal more suspetbale to wanting to commit suicide.  In any case I was kind of mentally "unstable" in and out of Islam, in Islam is just thought it was the jinn fucking with me, but even as an atheist I still believe in some superstition, like pir (head of Sufi Order) I drink and wear taveez! and I really think they work, and I also make intercession, I am fond of pir, and Sufism. But I know it's all bull though, but it's all good!
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #20 - November 29, 2008, 01:16 AM

    There are some good points. For example Islam legitimates/institute the oppression of women by men. Insofar as it can serve that purpose men are more likely to hold to the religion. On the other hand, it doesn't tell us much about how women internalize that, and why they may be just as likely to hold to it - in other words, how it can come to be of 'service to men'. Somewhere, the psychology of interpersonal relationships must appear.

    Likewise the service which religion gives to leaders - in the example you provide, early Islam's dynastic power - is perfectly obvious, but it doesn't explain why Islam was able to be used in such a way in the first place. (Power is always risky, by the way. "The King is dead; Long live The King". But it's worthwhile if you're that way minded.)

    You don't at all account for some fundamental "services" of religion which include: providing a coherent (if false) worldview which explains the world to those who adhere to it, coming to terms with the ephemeral nature of being/consciousness, and giving a framework by which those experiences that we call "religious" can be interpreted. All of those cannot be explained without psychology.

    Many of us are truth-seeking, we don't neccesarily just believe what is most palletable, we had to reject Islam on that basis alone.

    What can be said for your conception of religion is that it in many ways applies to society at large and how they serve vested interests, power formations etc. yet it leaves out much of individual experience. What does it have to say about the pychological aspects of someone leaving a faith they were brought up in?

    I have put a lot of thought into this, and I would not mind discussing the matter further perhaps you can punch few holes in my opinion.

    We can use all the psychology we want, ultimately that psychology will only demonstrate to us that the main reason someone apostates, is when they perceive more harms then services from the religion.

    You have to understand that many people, specially as we get older, will realize that religions are bogus yet still cling to the religion.

    Here is a perceived service:  man being given the power to control the women in his house.
    Here is the racket: Many prohibitive religions make it so the men grow up lacking basic knowledge & experience about women. And then have an entire set of rules to make up for that lack of experience at the expense of oppressing the women (i.e. divorce rules, beating rules, polygamy rules)

    Now such a man will have stronger motives to remain in his religion. At least until he finds a different way of how to handle the women in his life.

    Here is a perceived service: A religion promises to offer you continuity, to protect your kids from outside influence of cults like "Jehovah's bitches" or "Scientology". Also while you are at work 12hrs a day, we will be with your kids and educate them in a certain way.
    Here is the racket: Such a religion could be worse or as bad or almost as bad as 'Jehovah's witnesses'.  As for education, that religion will drown the kids in illogical fallacies and ends up red herringing your kids till they grow old.

    The price of such a racket is that, the kids will spend an inordinate amount of time trying to understand the religion, or drown in rituals, and then become much less productive and much less knowledgeable because they spent their lives reading senseless books instead of learning about & creating philosophy, social science, science, sex, arts, etc.

    Here is a perceived service:  No pain, No gain. We offer you to reward you for pain. We will even impose some pain on you to increase your gains, now go do ablution and get on your knees Five times a day.
    Here is the racket: Once people start investing into the religion, they expect a return and it becomes harder for them to walk away.

    Here is a perceived service:  The leaders are worshiped.
    Here is the racket: No racket in this one, you accept a leadership position, lead them my way, and I will get the sheeple to serve you. Except for the fact that murder and backstabbing becomes the norm and the leader will 'always' live in a precarious position. Ask almost every khalifa, before they got murdered of course.


    So Panoptic, when you discuss religion with someone, always find out what services the religion offers to them first. The more senile the arguments they make, the more you should realize that there is something else holding them onto that religion the arguments they just made.




    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #21 - November 29, 2008, 10:34 AM

    One effect I've observed in myself is an increase in anxiety, fear and panic-attacks over all sorts of daily matters, both minor and major. The sorts of things that I might have deferred to God and trusted that he would "make it all turn out ok"

    Of course it's difficult to separate what is specifically a result of rejecting Islam and what is simply a result of other factors and I have always been a worrier.

    But I am much more anxious, insecure and fearful of things 'going wrong' than I used to be and I think the feeling that there is no Divine safety net is a factor. (Even though I do believe in God - that belief is too undefined to provide much comfort.)


    Sorry to backtrack but I think mention should be made of the decreasing robustness of the individual's nervous system after the onset of middle age. I feel that keeping/maintaining  a faith might just shift the focus for anxiety to something else awry in that person's life.
    What I'm lumbering towards is the idea that it's the nervous condition and not the loss of faith that is the key dominating factor.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #22 - November 29, 2008, 02:02 PM

    One effect I've observed in myself is an increase in anxiety, fear and panic-attacks over all sorts of daily matters, both minor and major. The sorts of things that I might have deferred to God and trusted that he would "make it all turn out ok"

    Of course it's difficult to separate what is specifically a result of rejecting Islam and what is simply a result of other factors and I have always been a worrier.

    But I am much more anxious, insecure and fearful of things 'going wrong' than I used to be and I think the feeling that there is no Divine safety net is a factor. (Even though I do believe in God - that belief is too undefined to provide much comfort.)


    Sorry to backtrack but I think mention should be made of the decreasing robustness of the individual's nervous system after the onset of middle age. I feel that keeping/maintaining  a faith might just shift the focus for anxiety to something else awry in that person's life.
    What I'm lumbering towards is the idea that it's the nervous condition and not the loss of faith that is the key dominating factor.


    Deteriorating nervous system? Great! One more thing to worry about... where's God when you need him.

     grin12
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #23 - November 29, 2008, 04:38 PM

    A deteriorating nervous system my help in explaining my mum's hysterical reactions to my lifestyle choices.

    Leaving Islam has caused me immense grief due to my parents, but has also given me a great sense of relief because I'm freer to speak my mind and have fewer irrational restrictions on my life. I am also happier in my person and more confident compared to how I used to be when carrying the burden of my parents' religion.

    But I'm also less grounded and feel I have les of a safety net, but this is more due to a cultural shift than losing one's religion. In traditional cultures people have security and community, although at the expense of freedom. I chose freedom, but I'm feeling the biting lonliness as a result.

    As far as the pyschological comfort of belief, I haven't felt too much of a difference. I was never one to pray to God for things, but was quite stoical and accepted things I couldn't change. My purpose in life hasn't changed either; it's still to make the most out of it, do good, learn, grow, love. In moments of despair, it wasn't my belief in God that comforted me, but my own mortality, and that hasn't changed.

    So the main adverse effects of leaving Islam is the onset of a very Western and urban kind of lonliness and fear (of people).

    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #24 - November 29, 2008, 06:57 PM

    For outside readers, this is a discussion between Panoptic and me about a belief I put forward that people leave or stay or become neutral in a religion based on the amount of services or harm they perceive to themselves. Panpotic (correct me if i am wrong) is of the point that we need psychology to determine why a person stays or leave.


    But Panpotic providing a coherant window *is* a service offered. Of course we need psychology to measure the how and the what of religious experiences. But ultimately, a religion that survives, will have found a way to convince its followers that they have a good (the best?) window.

    I maintain that islam offers to men the service "of maintaining women" and also offers the racket of "making men personally weaker". I do not deny (or contradict) that Psychology is needed to measure for example how are men made personally weaker. I also do not deny that psychology is needed to make men realize that a racket was pulled on them.

    As for Truth-seekers, it is islam that fails them, not my theory Smiley. Islam fails to provide the service of 'Truth' or whatever it is that those people need. OF course to determine whatever it is that truth-seeker or others really need, you will need psychology.

    * Psychology will tell us what people want, perceive or need and how to influence them.
    * Service or Harm, is a form of currency that psychologists (and the rest of us) can use to discuss possible reasons for someone's adherence to or repulsion from a doctrine.


    There are some good points. For example Islam legitimates/institute the oppression of women by men. Insofar as it can serve that purpose men are more likely to hold to the religion. On the other hand, it doesn't tell us much about how women internalize that, and why they may be just as likely to hold to it - in other words, how it can come to be of 'service to men'. Somewhere, the psychology of interpersonal relationships must appear.

    Likewise the service which religion gives to leaders - in the example you provide, early Islam's dynastic power - is perfectly obvious, but it doesn't explain why Islam was able to be used in such a way in the first place. (Power is always risky, by the way. "The King is dead; Long live The King". But it's worthwhile if you're that way minded.)

    You don't at all account for some fundamental "services" of religion which include: providing a coherent (if false) worldview which explains the world to those who adhere to it, coming to terms with the ephemeral nature of being/consciousness, and giving a framework by which those experiences that we call "religious" can be interpreted. All of those cannot be explained without psychology.

    Many of us are truth-seeking, we don't neccesarily just believe what is most palletable, we had to reject Islam on that basis alone.

    What can be said for your conception of religion is that it in many ways applies to society at large and how they serve vested interests, power formations etc. yet it leaves out much of individual experience. What does it have to say about the pychological aspects of someone leaving a faith they were brought up in?

    I have put a lot of thought into this, and I would not mind discussing the matter further perhaps you can punch few holes in my opinion.

    We can use all the psychology we want, ultimately that psychology will only demonstrate to us that the main reason someone apostates, is when they perceive more harms then services from the religion.

    You have to understand that many people, specially as we get older, will realize that religions are bogus yet still cling to the religion.

    Here is a perceived service:  man being given the power to control the women in his house.
    Here is the racket: Many prohibitive religions make it so the men grow up lacking basic knowledge & experience about women. And then have an entire set of rules to make up for that lack of experience at the expense of oppressing the women (i.e. divorce rules, beating rules, polygamy rules)

    Now such a man will have stronger motives to remain in his religion. At least until he finds a different way of how to handle the women in his life.

    Here is a perceived service: A religion promises to offer you continuity, to protect your kids from outside influence of cults like "Jehovah's bitches" or "Scientology". Also while you are at work 12hrs a day, we will be with your kids and educate them in a certain way.
    Here is the racket: Such a religion could be worse or as bad or almost as bad as 'Jehovah's witnesses'.  As for education, that religion will drown the kids in illogical fallacies and ends up red herringing your kids till they grow old.

    The price of such a racket is that, the kids will spend an inordinate amount of time trying to understand the religion, or drown in rituals, and then become much less productive and much less knowledgeable because they spent their lives reading senseless books instead of learning about & creating philosophy, social science, science, sex, arts, etc.

    Here is a perceived service:  No pain, No gain. We offer you to reward you for pain. We will even impose some pain on you to increase your gains, now go do ablution and get on your knees Five times a day.
    Here is the racket: Once people start investing into the religion, they expect a return and it becomes harder for them to walk away.

    Here is a perceived service:  The leaders are worshiped.
    Here is the racket: No racket in this one, you accept a leadership position, lead them my way, and I will get the sheeple to serve you. Except for the fact that murder and backstabbing becomes the norm and the leader will 'always' live in a precarious position. Ask almost every khalifa, before they got murdered of course.


    So Panoptic, when you discuss religion with someone, always find out what services the religion offers to them first. The more senile the arguments they make, the more you should realize that there is something else holding them onto that religion the arguments they just made.





    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #25 - November 29, 2008, 09:14 PM

    Your theory amounts to people performing a rational cost/benefit analysis, like an economic calculation, which I think is too crude to explain religion as a socialised phenomenon that can operate at a prerational/emotional level as much as anything else.

    Quote
    Panpotic (correct me if i am wrong) is of the point that we need psychology to determine why a person stays or leave.


    I said: It's quite individual. People reject Islam for what are often different personal, or [intellectual]/theological/ideational/spiritual reasons.

    But Panpotic providing a coherant window *is* a service offered. Of course we need psychology to measure the how and the what of religious experiences. But ultimately, a religion that survives, will have found a way to convince its followers that they have a good (the best?) window.

    I maintain that islam offers to men the service "of maintaining women" and also offers the racket of "making men personally weaker". I do not deny (or contradict) that Psychology is needed to measure for example how are men made personally weaker. I also do not deny that psychology is needed to make men realize that a racket was pulled on them.

    As for Truth-seekers, it is islam that fails them, not my theory Smiley.

    Islam fails to provide the service of 'Truth' or whatever it is that those people need. OF course to determine whatever it is that truth-seeker or others really need, you will need psychology.

    * Psychology will tell us what people want, perceive or need and how to influence them.
    * Service or Harm, is a form of currency that psychologists (and the rest of us) can use to discuss possible reasons for someone's adherence to or repulsion from a doctrine.


    I think it's more of an analogy you're using than a theory. People stay in a religion because they perceive it as more beneficial than harmful doesn't explain a lot does it?

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #26 - November 30, 2008, 02:06 PM

    @Baal. Here is my basic assessment.

    What you say as a description is completely correct. If someone clings onto a religion they do so for a reason that proves, as you put it, is of service to them. But I'm not saying the problem is assumed rationality, as such. The problem is that you are being circular thus far. What you need to do to develop your observation into a theory of religion is to give it a consistency by which it can provide a totality of explanation. That may be religion in relation to other 'ideologies' but then it needs refining to deploy itself to that extent. So far it has to -rely- on psychology - so it cannot account for things in the way psychology does, even if that psychology may itself make for a superficial representation of actual interests, which I admit it can. In a generaliseable way it could actually be a totalising theory (at least within a dominant-type famework, such as memetics). The merit is that makes religion an open-ended source of services to individual interests it is to that extent a collective investment as much as it as individual one. So it could be more nuanced.

    That patriarchy harms men and doesn't just benefit them is also a very good point. Unfortunately a rare one.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #27 - November 30, 2008, 02:10 PM

    One effect I've observed in myself is an increase in anxiety, fear and panic-attacks over all sorts of daily matters, both minor and major. The sorts of things that I might have deferred to God and trusted that he would "make it all turn out ok"

    Of course it's difficult to separate what is specifically a result of rejecting Islam and what is simply a result of other factors and I have always been a worrier.

    But I am much more anxious, insecure and fearful of things 'going wrong' than I used to be and I think the feeling that there is no Divine safety net is a factor. (Even though I do believe in God - that belief is too undefined to provide much comfort.)


    Sorry to backtrack but I think mention should be made of the decreasing robustness of the individual's nervous system after the onset of middle age. I feel that keeping/maintaining  a faith might just shift the focus for anxiety to something else awry in that person's life.
    What I'm lumbering towards is the idea that it's the nervous condition and not the loss of faith that is the key dominating factor.


    Deteriorating nervous system? Great! One more thing to worry about... where's God when you need him.

     grin12

    Ever seen the end of 'The Wizard of Oz'?

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #28 - November 30, 2008, 07:15 PM

    There are many more psychological effects of being a Muslim.  Such as the constant threat of hell fire at the back of your mind, or feeling really guilty when you miss a daytime prayer or not waking up for fajr or questioning the Quran or listening to music or befriending a non-Muslim or eating non-halal meat..... etc *I can go on*

    I no longer have any of these "guilts" now, so the psychological effects of leaving Islam have been very positive. Smiley

    .
  • Re: The Psychological Effects of Leaving Islam
     Reply #29 - November 30, 2008, 10:56 PM

    Your theory amounts to people performing a rational cost/benefit analysis, like an economic calculation, which I think is too crude to explain religion as a socialised phenomenon that can operate at a prerational/emotional level as much as anything else.

    I will comment on the term "Rational cost/benefit analysis": I said the 'services' that people 'perceive'. People will make a rational analysis every now and then, however, they will make the decision based on what they 'perceive' to be True.

    Quote
    Panpotic (correct me if i am wrong) is of the point that we need psychology to determine why a person stays or leave.


    I said: It's quite individual. People reject Islam for what are often different personal, or [intellectual]/theological/ideational/spiritual reasons.

    Okay,

    But Panpotic providing a coherant window *is* a service offered. Of course we need psychology to measure the how and the what of religious experiences. But ultimately, a religion that survives, will have found a way to convince its followers that they have a good (the best?) window.

    I maintain that islam offers to men the service "of maintaining women" and also offers the racket of "making men personally weaker". I do not deny (or contradict) that Psychology is needed to measure for example how are men made personally weaker. I also do not deny that psychology is needed to make men realize that a racket was pulled on them.

    As for Truth-seekers, it is islam that fails them, not my theory Smiley.

    Islam fails to provide the service of 'Truth' or whatever it is that those people need. OF course to determine whatever it is that truth-seeker or others really need, you will need psychology.

    * Psychology will tell us what people want, perceive or need and how to influence them.
    * Service or Harm, is a form of currency that psychologists (and the rest of us) can use to discuss possible reasons for someone's adherence to or repulsion from a doctrine.


    I think it's more of an analogy you're using than a theory. People stay in a religion because they perceive it as more beneficial than harmful doesn't explain a lot does it?

    I only used the analogy to explain the theory. From now on however, this is what I would like you to try, when you face someone taking sides in an argument and making unusual points: Do not spend times on the points they make, look further into what benefits they perceive and what racket was/is played on them. Look for the real reason they are taking sides.

    When someone is making a point like: "necrophilia can not be applied on someone from the 7th century, because everyone was doing it." Chances are, that person has other motives, possibly he does not mind necrophilia himself and can not wait for a chance to get away with it One day. Perhaps it would shatter a belief he holds. Or perhaps a family member had necrophilia applied on them and as such he does not want to think that necrophilia is bad in order not to victimize his family member. Either way, spending too much time discussing necrophilia with them is moot. Their belief stems from somewhere else.

    Even if you "beat" them. Even if you "win". They will not drop the belief because you did not disprove the real service the religion is offering them. They wasted your time on a herring.






    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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