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Theme Changer

 Topic: Reforming Islam?

 (Read 9306 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Reforming Islam?
     OP - December 04, 2008, 07:26 PM

    Hi,

    I've recently stumbled upon few videos on Youtube about Irshad Manji. She has written a book titled The Trouble with Islam Today where she claims to be a 'reformed minded Muslim'. She says she is still devout, and prays to Allah. However, Manji as a 'reformed Muslim', wishes to re-write the verses in the Quran which calls for violence, and other certain dogmas of the same nature.

    If I understand her cause correctly, I find this a bit confusing. I give her credit for encouraging young Muslims to speak out against Extremists, but I see this whole 'reform' thing as incredibly unnecessary. I'm an ex-Muslim and an Atheist. When I was studying the Quran, and the Hadiths, I was told that the best interpretations are from scholars, and from the Tafsir.  After reading those, and understanding them, I left my religion.

    I wonder, if someone wants to leave certain dogmas behind from any religion, why not just leave the whole religion completely behind, instead of cherry-picking the religion? Why not be sincere, and acknowledge that ancient religions has only very few benefit for us in the 21st century? This is what I don't understand. From my understanding, I believe most Muslims like the 'idea' that no one has re-written the Quran in about 1400 years. They take much pride in that.

    To me, Manji seems like an Islamic Apologist.

    I haven't read her book, but I plan to. My thoughts and opinions about her, are strictly from what I read about her on the internet so far. So if I'm wrong, please do correct me. I'd love to know more.

    What are your thoughts on this?

    Here is a quick link to one of her videos:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba6IR0x-k1c&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWfHTio87pA

    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #1 - December 04, 2008, 07:39 PM

    She's not an apologist in my opinion - the reason being that she doesn't avoid telling the truth enough.

    It is hard to take her as a Muslim since in her book she questions whether the Qur'an is the word of God, suggests that Muhammad isn't the perfect example etc.
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #2 - December 04, 2008, 07:41 PM

    When it comes to Irshad Manji I think the overall conclusion is that she's in denial.

    This may sound strange but I actually think she hasn't officially declared herself an apostate out of respect for her parents and perhaps a little bit of apprehension about what might happen next if she does. Overall though I just find her a little immature.
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #3 - December 04, 2008, 08:01 PM

    Hi,

    I've recently stumbled upon few videos on Youtube about Irshad Manji. She has written a book titled The Trouble with Islam Today where she claims to be a 'reformed minded Muslim'. She says she is still devout, and prays to Allah. However, Manji as a 'reformed Muslim', wishes to re-write the verses in the Quran which calls for violence, and other certain dogmas of the same nature.

    If I understand her cause correctly, I find this a bit confusing. I give her credit for encouraging young Muslims to speak out against Extremists, but I see this whole 'reform' thing as incredibly unnecessary. I'm an ex-Muslim and an Atheist. When I was studying the Quran, and the Hadiths, I was told that the best interpretations are from scholars, and from the Tafsir.  After reading those, and understanding them, I left my religion.

    I wonder, if someone wants to leave certain dogmas behind from any religion, why not just leave the whole religion completely behind, instead of cherry-picking the religion? Why not be sincere, and acknowledge that ancient religions has only very few benefit for us in the 21st century? This is what I don't understand. From my understanding, I believe most Muslims like the 'idea' that no one has re-written the Quran in about 1400 years. They take much pride in that.

    To me, Manji seems like an Islamic Apologist.

    I haven't read her book, but I plan to. My thoughts and opinions about her, are strictly from what I read about her on the internet so far. So if I'm wrong, please do correct me. I'd love to know more.

    What are your thoughts on this?



    I have read her book and you are pretty much correct. But unlike you and me and the other ex-Muslims here - there are millions of Muslims who simply cannot leave Islam because it provides so much for them - such as identity, comfort, security, meaning to their lives, family, friends, society etc etc... - that they simply can't contemplate leaving it.

    Reforming it - even if it is dishonest - is easier for them.

    Don't forget that human beings have an almost infinite capacity for re-writing the facts/history.



  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #4 - December 04, 2008, 08:12 PM

    Perhaps she believes a more realistic approach is to reform koran, and realistically, it is an *impossibility* to reform islam without changing or ignoring text.

    Just read the OT's Deuteronomy to get a good idea for an example of ranting garbage that can only be interpreted correctly by modifying it or ignoring it.

    Ignoring and Reforming text has been done and will continue to be done. By ALL humans. The problem with the koran is, the book is too small, only 6200 verses, and the amount of text to be ignored is too large. So the only realistic solution to reform koran, is to change the text.

    Wafaa Sultan tried the reforming approach early on, but then gave up and apostated. Which is the much much more realistic approach.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #5 - December 04, 2008, 09:49 PM

    Perhaps she believes a more realistic approach is to reform koran, and realistically, it is an *impossibility* to reform islam without changing or ignoring text.

    Just read the OT's Deuteronomy to get a good idea for an example of ranting garbage that can only be interpreted correctly by modifying it or ignoring it.

    Ignoring and Reforming text has been done and will continue to be done. By ALL humans. The problem with the koran is, the book is too small, only 6200 verses, and the amount of text to be ignored is too large. So the only realistic solution to reform koran, is to change the text.

    Wafaa Sultan tried the reforming approach early on, but then gave up and apostated. Which is the much much more realistic approach.




    Good points Baal. But honestly I think it would take a miracle in order for Islam to be reformed, but it is a must, because if muslims keep up this nonsense on how islam can never change then the islamic world will never change. If it weren't for the oil in the Arabian Peninsula, the muslim world would be pathetic, they would have absolutely nothing.

    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #6 - December 04, 2008, 10:13 PM

    I don`t know what she is trying to prove. She is probably extremely attached and scared. Plus She is a lesbian and we all know Islam`s attitude toward homosexuality. I can`t respect her because she won`t even face the facts.

    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #7 - December 04, 2008, 10:17 PM


    I have read her book and you are pretty much correct. But unlike you and me and the other ex-Muslims here - there are millions of Muslims who simply cannot leave Islam because it provides so much for them - such as identity, comfort, security, meaning to their lives, family, friends, society etc etc... - that they simply can't contemplate leaving it.

    Reforming it - even if it is dishonest - is easier for them.

    Don't forget that human beings have an almost infinite capacity for re-writing the facts/history.



    Yeah, you pretty much hit the nail on the head there.

    Religion serves as a type of identity which I think is quite harmful. Sure, it's good to have individual identity, but that's different from social identity. I strongly believe social identity is very harmful and it divides people. Race already serves a big role in dividing people, and Religion serves a bigger one where the reasons for the divide are completely irrational.

    Good points Baal. But honestly I think it would take a miracle in order for Islam to be reformed, but it is a must, because if muslims keep up this nonsense on how islam can never change then the islamic world will never change. If it weren't for the oil in the Arabian Peninsula, the muslim world would be pathetic, they would have absolutely nothing.


    I don't see how 'reforming' is the answer. Look at Christianity for example. They have 'reformed' their religion constantly to the point where it is very obvious that the religion is man made. I personally don't see what reforming will solve.

    I think the idea of reforming is just an excuse as Hassan pointed out.

    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #8 - December 04, 2008, 10:38 PM


    I have read her book and you are pretty much correct. But unlike you and me and the other ex-Muslims here - there are millions of Muslims who simply cannot leave Islam because it provides so much for them - such as identity, comfort, security, meaning to their lives, family, friends, society etc etc... - that they simply can't contemplate leaving it.

    Reforming it - even if it is dishonest - is easier for them.

    Don't forget that human beings have an almost infinite capacity for re-writing the facts/history.



    Yeah, you pretty much hit the nail on the head there.

    Religion serves as a type of identity which I think is quite harmful. Sure, it's good to have individual identity, but that's different from social identity. I strongly believe social identity is very harmful and it divides people. Race already serves a big role in dividing people, and Religion serves a bigger one where the reasons for the divide are completely irrational.

    Good points Baal. But honestly I think it would take a miracle in order for Islam to be reformed, but it is a must, because if muslims keep up this nonsense on how islam can never change then the islamic world will never change. If it weren't for the oil in the Arabian Peninsula, the muslim world would be pathetic, they would have absolutely nothing.


    I don't see how 'reforming' is the answer. Look at Christianity for example. They have 'reformed' their religion constantly to the point where it is very obvious that the religion is man made. I personally don't see what reforming will solve.

    I think the idea of reforming is just an excuse as Hassan pointed out.


    You have great points Tommy, I agree, but if Islam cannot be reformed, than what will happen? If they won;t reform it, then it will stay this way for hundreds of years and that wouldnt be too good lol. I seriously hope Islam dies out in the future just like many religions in the past did.

    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #9 - December 05, 2008, 05:25 PM

    I actually have a lot of admiration for Irshad Manji and I wish her all the best.

    I doubt very much she is campaigning for reform because she cannot bear rejecting Islam herself - but because she genuinely cares about her fellow Muslims. She knows that the vast majority will never leave Islam and so reform is the only way to rescue them from the situation they are in.

    I can completely empathise as I spent some years trying to do the same thing - but gave up.

    She seems to be a strong and gutsy lady, so perhaps she will stay the course. I actually think Islam will reform. (and is being reformed as we speak.)

    Whatever the case - good luck to her.  Afro
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #10 - December 05, 2008, 05:40 PM

    Hassan,
    What is the problem with reforming Islam?

    Like all the religions have undergone reform. It is just about dividing necessary and unnecessary stuff in a religion. You will not see Jews killing anyone of breaking sabath now  Wink. You will not see Hindu women trying to copulate with Horse after Horse sacrifice  Wink

    I guess there is something known as principles and then whole lot of unnecessary things. Like 5 pillar of Islam etc. can still continue and they can have a reform.

    I actually have a lot of admiration for Irshad Manji and I wish her all the best.

    I doubt very much she is campaigning for reform because she cannot bear rejecting Islam herself - but because she genuinely cares about her fellow Muslims. She knows that the vast majority will never leave Islam and so reform is the only way to rescue them from the situation they are in.

    I can completely empathise as I spent some years trying to do the same thing - but gave up.

    She seems to be a strong and gutsy lady, so perhaps she will stay the course. I actually think Islam will reform. (and is being reformed as we speak.)

    Whatever the case - good luck to her.  Afro

  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #11 - December 05, 2008, 05:55 PM

    Hassan,
    What is the problem with reforming Islam?

    Like all the religions have undergone reform. It is just about dividing necessary and unnecessary stuff in a religion. You will not see Jews killing anyone of breaking sabath now  Wink. You will not see Hindu women trying to copulate with Horse after Horse sacrifice  Wink

    I guess there is something known as principles and then whole lot of unnecessary things. Like 5 pillar of Islam etc. can still continue and they can have a reform.

    I actually have a lot of admiration for Irshad Manji and I wish her all the best.

    I doubt very much she is campaigning for reform because she cannot bear rejecting Islam herself - but because she genuinely cares about her fellow Muslims. She knows that the vast majority will never leave Islam and so reform is the only way to rescue them from the situation they are in.

    I can completely empathise as I spent some years trying to do the same thing - but gave up.

    She seems to be a strong and gutsy lady, so perhaps she will stay the course. I actually think Islam will reform. (and is being reformed as we speak.)

    Whatever the case - good luck to her.  Afro


    But judaism did not reform. We still in Toronto have most of the buildings in the jewish area where the elevator goes on automatic on saturdays so a sabbatical jew on saturday does not have to push a button and break his sabath (in public at least). Historically, all this stuff about killing Sabath breakers, is just as a tool to empower a society to bully its members to follow rituals. Just like today.

    The main balance and check of judaism is, they can not convert others. Unless your mother is jewish, then they can not accept you as a jew.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #12 - December 05, 2008, 05:56 PM

    Hassan,
    What is the problem with reforming Islam?


    Islam is a little different from Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism or any other religion in that the Qur'an is regarded as the infallible and literal word of God for all times and all places.

    This has always made it much harder for reformers to change things.

    But I am not one of those who says reform is impossible. On the contrary, Islam has already evolved and is being reformed all the time. It's true that it is harder to reform - but certainly not impossible.

    For example, the verse 34 of Nisa allows a man to hit his wife. Now we have God's unchanging word interpreted as "Leave them alone!" instead of "Hit them!" Most Muslims would rather swallow that than leave Islam.

    It's not for me though.

    I have a low toleration level for 'complete bollocks'.
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #13 - December 05, 2008, 05:58 PM

    So then are they a race or a religion?
    Do all Jews believe that, no one can convert to Judaism?

    http://www.convert.org/

    This is the site for promoting conversion
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #14 - December 05, 2008, 06:18 PM

    So then are they a race or a religion?
    Do all Jews believe that, no one can convert to Judaism?

    http://www.convert.org/

    This is the site for promoting conversion

    They call themselves Reform Judaism. Good luck getting promoted in the isreali army or even be permitted to buy land if your mother is not jewish. Also good luck finding a rabbi in that phone book they mention who will convert you.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #15 - December 05, 2008, 06:20 PM

    No I don't want to get converted, just I saw the website  Smiley
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #16 - December 05, 2008, 08:05 PM

    I'm an Atheist like you Tommy. I think we need to be realistic about what's achievable though. Reform is better than entrenchment,  which is what happens when you try to ban something.
    So I'm all for someone , well meaning, who wants to overhaul something that's in dire need of modernisation.
    Most bibles, I would say, are in English nowadays whereas they were just in Latin at one time, until the reformers got their hands on it. It seems to me that once you modernise the language of a religious tract and it's  more accessible to ordinary folk, the more of them can see the obvious fallacies and iniquities in the original and think, 'what the hell, I don't believe this bull.'
    Islam, suffers the same problem as was found in early Christianity in that you needed a priestly sect to interpret it for and to the people. When it's commonly accessible you can cut the 'experts' out of the understanding and make your own mind up.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #17 - December 05, 2008, 09:02 PM

    I think Islam has a future in the world. I personally want Islam, the current backward type to die out, but as a whole religion, I don't really mind it staying. If reforming the religion means that we can have a much more tolerant version of Islam, and ultimately give rise to a more tolerant sect of Islam, then I'm okay with that. I encourage that reform.

    However, I will say that in the very end, it doesn't make sense. The reason why I say this is because we have to recognize that reform is just another word for 'cherry-picking.' And it gives atheists the obvious evidence that every religion is man made. Which is I think is one of the greatest pride that Muslims hold about Islam. They are proud of the fact that no one has altered the Quran in about 1400 years. I remember when I was a Muslim, that was one of the things that was presented to a Non-Muslims, especially a Christian when giving da'wah.

    All in all, if Muslims want to reform Islam to make it whatever they want, then so be it. Who am I to say no? As long as any government is not at any cost influenced by religion, and religion is kept separate, and is practiced privately, then I'm perfectly fine with a reformed version of Islam.

    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #18 - December 05, 2008, 09:12 PM

    I have a theory that a great many Muslims are closet Atheists or Agnostics, but are too lazy to challenge their comfort zone.
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #19 - December 05, 2008, 09:27 PM

    I have a theory that a great many Muslims are closet Atheists or Agnostics, but are too lazy to challenge their comfort zone.

     True say. I believe that as well. I personally know a few people like that. They are good friends of mine.

    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #20 - December 05, 2008, 09:41 PM

    I just came across this article written by a another lesbian muslim  this one a British 'revert' .

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/04/gayrights-islam

    Quote
    I became a member of Imaan 18 months ago, when I stumbled upon their online forum almost randomly. I remember the moment so clearly, I kept pressing the back button on my browser, retracing the small steps from Google, thinking how come it took me so long, why didn't I find this before? I'd spent a lot of time in Muslim countries before that day, but had never before heard sexuality being discussed so honestly by Muslims.

    The possibility that Islam could have a space for me as a queer woman had seemed almost impossible to consider until that point. I had taken my shahada (testimony of faith) soon after reading the Qur'an for the first time, and never since doubted my belief in the truth of its message. Yet the actual reality of living as a Muslim was much harder as a gay woman, especially as the emphasis on heterosexual marriage is so pervasive in Muslim literature and consciousness.

    As a convert I wasn't surrounded by family pressurising me to get married ? as so many born Muslims are ? but almost every Muslim I met told me I needed to get married (and asap!) in order to learn about Islam. This made it hard to connect with my faith community, as I actually felt quite comfortable in my man-less life. I spent a many hours on the Imaan forum when I first joined, because although people do talk about sexuality and Islam, there's a lot of just hanging out; I guess, exploring alternative ways of being. At one point I decided I would never go to an Imaan event, simply because I didn't want to spoil the space that I'd found.

    I changed my mind during Ramadan 2007. I had spent the first part of the month in the Middle East, and coming back to London, breaking fast alone while listening to khutbah on the internet just didn't feel right. I hadn't been able to access the Imaan forum while away (many Muslim majority countries block such sites) and when I heard that Imaan was hosting regular iftars (breaking of fast), I finally thought, if not now, when?

    Attending that first social event was so frightening. To actually enter a room full of queer Muslims was such a bizarre thought, but actually it was just a room full of people breaking their fasts with dates and talking about their days. Still, I stayed nervous and must have only spoken a few words in that whole evening. Afterwards the sisters went for cake, and I was able to connect with them more easily. I don't know what I was expecting, but the fact that there were existent, full-of-faith women practising Islam, and also queer, was the most inspiring thing. I started attending Imaan social and religious events as often as I could after that, ranging from an Eid party to film shows, dinners, interfaith events ... and Gay Pride.

    I've been blessed, through Imaan, to have met ? and married ? my partner, to have found some astounding friends and, inshallah, to have also grown in my Islamic faith. Simultaneously, I've heard people talk of such horrific experiences that I've realised the discussions that need to happen within the Muslim community have barely begun. For the overwhelming majority of born Muslims, the possibility of finding peace between their sexual orientation and their religious identity looks like a mirage on a distant landscape. This is a human rights issue. This is also an issue that could, and should, be solved by looking at our Islam. Some of the most fundamental tenets of Islam are compassion for others, human dignity, respect for life in all its forms and charity. The fact that so many brothers and sisters are turning ? and being turned ? away from their faith communities, their mosques, their families and even from their trust in Allah, testifies that somehow this compassionate side to our religion is not being lived fully.

    The Holy Qur'an insists that there are multiple ways of understanding its message, and that overall, every believer is responsible for her own self, for her own choices, and for her own spirituality. When I read the Qur'an, the compassionate and merciful nature of our creator is the loudest message that I hear. In my understanding, the intricacies of human sexuality are not clearly spelt out within the Qur'an's pages. Neither am I convinced that the infamous Lut narrative is a straightforward condemnation of consenting same-sex unions, although I respect that many Muslims read it as such. There has always been sexual diversity in Muslim history. It has received dramatically different "Islamic" responses, ranging from complete condemnation to widespread tolerance, to institutionalisation within specific Sufi contexts. It is important to recognise that there is no one right answer to questions of sexual ethics, and to keep returning, as the Qur'an tells us, back to Allah.

    I think it is important to keep "subversive optimism" (as one gay Muslim website describes it) towards the future, without being naive about the pain involved for so many Muslims across the world. Just this year I know of two different lesbians who have entered into heterosexual marriages for the sake of their families, (and don't forget, for every woman in a non-consenting marriage, there is also a man and often children as well). However, I also know two others who have had inspirationally religious civil partnerships, and heard of a queer Imam (in America) blessing a same-sex nikah. While critics will continue to be dismissive of such unions, numerous queer Muslims are, quite simply, getting on with their lives and growing closer to Allah as they do so.

    It is not necessary to ask for absolute acceptance from our faith community; difference does not have to be threatening. The Qur'an tells us, as relevant as ever, that Allah:

        ... created you all from a single man and a single woman, and made you into races and tribes so that you should know each other.

    Yet is it too idealistic to ask for tolerance from our brothers and sisters in Islam? I guess on that question the only answer is "Allahu a'lam" (God knows better).

    Note: This is a personal view by the author and does not necessarily reflect the views of Imaan.


    Imaan is a social support group for lesbian gay, bisexual and transgender muslims.

    [url]http://www.imaan.org.uk[url]

    I've never understood how people can claim that homosexuality is acceptable in Islam. And though its nice that the author has found peace and happiness in her own life, I still think that she is fooling herself.

    Quote
    In my understanding, the intricacies of human sexuality are not clearly spelt out within the Qur'an's pages. Neither am I convinced that the infamous Lut narrative is a straightforward condemnation of consenting same-sex unions, although I respect that many Muslims read it as such.


    How else can the story of Lut be explained? And why should she 'respect' the fact that many Muslims read it as such, when their interpretation amounts to a direct condemnation of who she is?


    Life is a sexually transmitted disease which is invariably fatal.
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #21 - December 05, 2008, 09:52 PM

    I just came across this article written by a another lesbian muslim  this one a British 'revert' .

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/04/gayrights-islam


    I am oddly comforted by that article.
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #22 - December 06, 2008, 03:33 PM

    She demonstrates that she has an immature perspective by stating that she wanted to "see what it felt like to a woman in a society like The Yemen by dressing in the burqa." Well, the simple answer is that she cannot know what it feels like to be a woman in another society simply by dressing in the same way. She is not compelled to dress like that, unlike Yemeni women. Her lack of understanding. too, as to why the youths who waited until the media had gone before speaking to her shows that she clearly does not understand even the basics of socio-familial pressure in an Islamic community.

    "If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it" From a letter Einstein wrote in English, dated 24 March 1954.
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #23 - December 06, 2008, 05:19 PM

    I just read some of the comments underneath the Guardian article and I thought one of them was worth including here.

    On reading her story someone posted the following

    This article reminds of a very funny Woody Allen joke. It went something like this: 'My rabbi is a liberal Jew. He's a very liberal Jew. In fact he's a Nazi'.

    There will always be people like her.


  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #24 - December 06, 2008, 05:31 PM

    Yeah I thought that one was really good .

    Life is a sexually transmitted disease which is invariably fatal.
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #25 - December 06, 2008, 05:51 PM

    I just came across this article written by a another lesbian muslim  this one a British 'revert' .

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/04/gayrights-islam


    I am oddly comforted by that article.


    I'm not surprised.

    I know for you Hassan your official apostasy is fairly recent but I'm sure as more time passes you'll start to think you've had a lucky escape if I may be so bold as to say so.
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #26 - December 06, 2008, 06:56 PM

    From her article: "When I stumbled upon their online forum almost randomly"

    Yeah right! When I?m on the internet I stumble upon porn almost randomly. Funny how these things randomly happen.

    When I clicked on her profile it says "Dervla Shannahan Hussain is a British Muslim revert/convert and ..... and studying for an MA in Islamic studies, whilst writing on queer theory and spirituality"

    Studying Islam whilst writing on queer theory! 
    wacko wacko


    oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!"
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #27 - December 06, 2008, 09:06 PM

    I know that King Tut will tut-tut over this as I am about to comment on an aspect of religion as a bisexual man. I could not have stayed a Muslim whilst being a practising bisexual. I thought very hard about it and considered that it was not possible to do both, believe and have a same-sex relationship. I was pleased to get married, which was my own choice and not imposed on me by religious belief, nor was it the reason that I became a Muslim.

    Now I am an atheist and separated from my wife, I no longer feel constrained concerning my sexuality. I find it incredible that anyone can distort their logic to the extent that, as a person who would conduct a same-sex relationship, they can also be a Christian or Muslim. That's my opinion and it is formed of my own experiences and sexuality.

    "If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it" From a letter Einstein wrote in English, dated 24 March 1954.
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #28 - December 06, 2008, 09:21 PM

    I think Islam has a future in the world. I personally want Islam, the current backward type to die out, but as a whole religion, I don't really mind it staying. If reforming the religion means that we can have a much more tolerant version of Islam, and ultimately give rise to a more tolerant sect of Islam, then I'm okay with that. I encourage that reform.

    However, I will say that in the very end, it doesn't make sense. The reason why I say this is because we have to recognize that reform is just another word for 'cherry-picking.' And it gives atheists the obvious evidence that every religion is man made. Which is I think is one of the greatest pride that Muslims hold about Islam. They are proud of the fact that no one has altered the Quran in about 1400 years. I remember when I was a Muslim, that was one of the things that was presented to a Non-Muslims, especially a Christian when giving da'wah.

    All in all, if Muslims want to reform Islam to make it whatever they want, then so be it. Who am I to say no? As long as any government is not at any cost influenced by religion, and religion is kept separate, and is practiced privately, then I'm perfectly fine with a reformed version of Islam.

    I think we're at one on this Tommy. I think that religion evolved as an asset to man, otherwise it wouldn't  still be surviving, but I think, in view of the number of irreligious people that the enlightenment and Science seem to have spawned, it may be starting to be on it's way out. Reform may be an interim  measure for getting us from one big idea to the next.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #29 - December 07, 2008, 02:07 AM

    Reform doesn't necessarily solve all the problems. Like SJ mentioned, it's a path to the 'next big idea' but whose to say that the next big idea will be better?

    Attempting to reform a religion just emphasizes that religion is in fact man made. Taking bits out  of the Qur'an would also emphasize that as it is being edited by man, there is no higher being involved. So how can you follow a man-made faith?

    The Qur'an mentions that it is the perfect book, the perfect book does not require reform!
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