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Theme Changer

 Topic: Agnosticism or Atheism ?

 (Read 6758 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     OP - December 12, 2008, 03:30 PM
    Where you do guys stand on this point?  Is it better to be Agnostic or Atheist?

    From Wikipedia:

    Agnosticism is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims ? particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of deities, ghosts, or even ultimate reality ? is unknown or, depending on the form of agnosticism, inherently impossible to prove or disprove.

    Atheism, as an explicit position, can be either the affirmation of the nonexistence of gods, or the rejection of theism. It is also defined more broadly as an absence of belief in deities, or nontheism.


    The more I think about it I think the middle ground of Agnosticism is the best place to start skeptical discussions?  In my debates with the faithful it is very hard to take an Atheist position.

    What do you think?
  • Re: Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     Reply #1 - December 12, 2008, 03:31 PM
    I can't make up my mind which one I fall under.

    I don't believe in god, I don't believe we are anything more than worm food when we die, but I desperately hope that I am wrong, so whatever that makes me that is what I am.  wacko
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     Reply #2 - December 12, 2008, 03:55 PM
    I don't like to think about it. I call myself agnostic I guess. I doubt there is a god, but I like to read/think about "him", argue the posibilities.  wacko
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     Reply #3 - December 12, 2008, 04:03 PM

    I think I'm agnostic. I can never be certain that there is no God. Especially after spending 20 years of my life believing in one.

    However I've come to the conclusion that either there is no God or God does not give a damn whether we worship her or him.

    Unless God reveals herself and lets me know what She wants then I'm no longer concerned about pleasing an imaginary being when that same time and money could be spent pleasing those close to me or those in need of help.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     Reply #4 - December 12, 2008, 04:18 PM
    Atheist 100%

    Nothing deserves to be called God.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     Reply #5 - December 12, 2008, 04:22 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on December 12, 2008, 03:31 PM
    I can't make up my mind which one I fall under.

    I don't believe in god, I don't believe we are anything more than worm food when we die, but I desperately hope that I am wrong, so whatever that makes me that is what I am.  wacko


    Thats just retarded! if your wrong that means am wrong and pascals wager always allied and we just manged to fuck ourself over, and miss out on the 72 virgins, which will be 1 billion times more sexy then earthly women!

    for that its worth accepting pascals wager, in all honesty! amazing too the hymen the next day will be fixed it will be like breaking the virginity of a woman ever-time you have sex with her, and moreover it will be tight, and she will be exclusively for you. Hot-shit!

    As a Muslim this was the best part in masjid when the imam used to tell me, I didn't feel wrong about being aroused about it, if you get what I mean.
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     Reply #6 - December 12, 2008, 04:24 PM
    Quote from: King Tut on December 12, 2008, 04:22 PM


    Thats just retarded! if your wrong that means am wrong and pascals wager always allied and we just manged to fuck ourself over, and miss out on the 72 virgins, which will be 1 billion times more sexy then earthly women!

    for that its worth accepting pascals wager, in all honesty! amazing too the hymen the next day will be fixed it will be like breaking the virginity of a woman ever-time you have sex with her, and moreover it will be tight, and she will be exclusively for you. Hot-shit!

    As a Muslim this was the best part in masjid when the imam used to tell me, I didn't feel wrong about being aroused about it, if you get what I mean.


    How does anything you have said relate to what I said?

    I said I wish I was wrong, and that I am desperately hopeful that I am wrong, and that somethin after death exists, I was not saying I desperately hoped Allah existed nor did I bring up the virgins.

    I am also not playing by pascals wager, since I don't believe in god, I just wish that death was not the end.  Roll Eyes
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     Reply #7 - December 12, 2008, 04:37 PM
    With which horse do you bet with Pascal's Wager? You bet Islam, but what if Christianity is right, and you will be punished? Or religion x, y, or z? Forget Pascal, listen to The Stoic Roman Emeperor, Philosopher King, Marcus Aurelius:

    Quote
    Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.


    If Allah were just, would he really care if you at pork, drank alcohol, had meaningful sexual relations with partners you weren't married to, entered your house with your right foot, apologised after defecating, etc. etc.; so long as you lived a good life? Or if you picked the wrong god by mistake or circumstance? If he cares about that more than how just you were in the world, than your good deeds, you should not want to worship him. Tongue
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     Reply #8 - December 12, 2008, 05:38 PM
    Quote from: awais on December 12, 2008, 04:37 PM
    With which horse do you bet with Pascal's Wager? You bet Islam, but what if Christianity is right, and you will be punished? Or religion x, y, or z? Forget Pascal, listen to The Stoic Roman Emeperor, Philosopher King, Marcus Aurelius:

    Quote
    Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.


    If Allah were just, would he really care if you at pork, drank alcohol, had meaningful sexual relations with partners you weren't married to, entered your house with your right foot, apologised after defecating, etc. etc.; so long as you lived a good life? Or if you picked the wrong god by mistake or circumstance? If he cares about that more than how just you were in the world, than your good deeds, you should not want to worship him. Tongue


    Here you might like the debate popping off here:
    http://statusqu0.wordpress.com/2008/11/26/hazrat-alis-wager/
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     Reply #9 - December 12, 2008, 08:31 PM
    The only true belief is that we dont know (unless someone can prove otherwise) and hence we can only truthfully say we are all agnostics.  We can only veer towards theism or atheism. 

    This does not mean to say we have to accept the possibility that God exists, but that a supernatural being may exist.  This supernatural being can be anything from a bubbling bottle of cherryade at zero degrees kelvin displaying as yet undiscovered scientific powers, or a god with magical ones.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     Reply #10 - December 12, 2008, 09:17 PM
    I'm an atheist. I don't believe in god and all the supernatural jazz that comes along with it. I can't prove these things don't exist or that there is an afterlife but that's not saying much. Ultimately, it is unknown but I'm still and atheist. 

    I don't think is matters very much as long as you don't fall for religion. skull 
    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     Reply #11 - December 12, 2008, 09:25 PM
    Quote from: King Tut on December 12, 2008, 04:22 PM
    pascals wager

    Are you seriously advancing pascal's wager?? Okay here's the thing; you can't feign belief. Either you *believe* it or you don't!

    If you truly do believe, Pascal's wager is pointless because it would apply only to what you do while you are alive (whether it is in line with what your particular deity wants you to do) or not, and not your actual belief. It is more accurate to say "<since I already believe this particular deity> its a choice between following all the stuff in <chosen holy text> or not, because if I'm wrong I'm in trouble."

    Do you think <particular God> will let you in to heaven because you *pretended* to believe? or is he too stupid to work out who was only bet-hedging and who are the "true believers"?

    Furthermore, pascal's wager is flawed from the get-go in two ways:

    1. It puts evidence for and against existence of God on equal footing of 50%. FACT: there is NO evidence for a deity. NONE! Any "holy books" and "prophets" are not evidence for existence they are simply claims. If you take the texts away then your God goes with them.

    2. It assumes there is only the chance of no God or one religion. ie it ignores every other religion that has ever existed on the planet, which, if we do this right, they should all be included in possibilities.

    So to make the point we can concede for the moment the 50% chance that "God" exists. Then you have to take the number of different religions that have ever existed and divide the 50% by them to get the probability that following <particular holy book/text> will get you into heaven if you follow it.

    If we *only* took the 3 abrahamic religions (and ignore ALL the others) and apply this, its 50% / 3 = 16.666 (etc..) % probability against Pascal's 50% for atheists.


    Pascal's wager doesn't look that good now, does it?
    WikiIslam
  • Re: Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     Reply #12 - December 14, 2008, 01:06 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on December 12, 2008, 04:18 PM
    Atheist 100%

    Nothing deserves to be called God.

    Says a guy with the FSM as his avatar! Tongue
    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     Reply #13 - December 14, 2008, 06:04 PM
    I don't think 'better ' comes into your question. You either are or you aren't.
    Quote from: TomTom on December 12, 2008, 03:30 PM
    Where you do guys stand on this point?  Is it better to be Agnostic or Atheist?

    quote]

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     Reply #14 - December 14, 2008, 07:23 PM
    I'm an Agnostic Atheist. I can't prove that there is a God, nor can I prove there isn't one. I simply go on probability, and God is quite improbable based on the evidence. In the end if there is a God, I'm open to the possibility, but I don't subscribe to a specific God. I'm an Atheist to all the Gods in history, and those that are more likely soon to take birth in the years to come.
    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     Reply #15 - December 14, 2008, 08:00 PM
    Atheist.
  • Re: Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     Reply #16 - December 15, 2008, 10:31 AM
    Quote from: Pazuzu on December 14, 2008, 01:06 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on December 12, 2008, 04:18 PM
    Atheist 100%

    Nothing deserves to be called God.

    Says a guy with the FSM as his avatar! Tongue

    Damn! That's a good point...

    (I'm female btw)
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     Reply #17 - May 03, 2009, 01:50 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on December 15, 2008, 10:31 AM
    (I'm female btw)

    Is this not enough?
    ...
  • Re: Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     Reply #18 - May 03, 2009, 01:55 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on May 03, 2009, 01:50 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on December 15, 2008, 10:31 AM
    (I'm female btw)

    Is this not enough?
    (Clicky for piccy!)

    lol I put that there at a later time when people kept confusing me for a guy Tongue
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     Reply #19 - May 03, 2009, 01:56 PM
    Ancient Egyptian pharaohs were considered to be both divine deities as well as mortal rulers. What do you think they thought of them-selves secretly? Atheists? Or did they actually believed they were gods?
    ...
  • Re: Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     Reply #20 - May 03, 2009, 01:58 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on May 03, 2009, 01:56 PM
    Ancient Egyptian pharaohs were considered to be both divine deities as well as mortal rulers. What do you think they thought of them-selves secretly? Atheists? Or did they actually believed they were gods?


    If you hear the lie enough times you start to believe it. Also the bigger the lie the easier it is to believe

    Also, consider this, they would have based their divinity on people worshipping them. Circular logic is the easiest and most effective tool at the dispense of the religious.
  • Re: Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     Reply #21 - May 03, 2009, 09:14 PM
    Quote from: Sanitarium on December 12, 2008, 09:25 PM
    Quote from: King Tut on December 12, 2008, 04:22 PM
    pascals wager

    Are you seriously advancing pascal's wager?? Okay here's the thing; you can't feign belief. Either you *believe* it or you don't!

    If you truly do believe, Pascal's wager is pointless because it would apply only to what you do while you are alive (whether it is in line with what your particular deity wants you to do) or not, and not your actual belief. It is more accurate to say "<since I already believe this particular deity> its a choice between following all the stuff in <chosen holy text> or not, because if I'm wrong I'm in trouble."

    Do you think <particular God> will let you in to heaven because you *pretended* to believe? or is he too stupid to work out who was only bet-hedging and who are the "true believers"?

    Furthermore, pascal's wager is flawed from the get-go in two ways:

    1. It puts evidence for and against existence of God on equal footing of 50%. FACT: there is NO evidence for a deity. NONE! Any "holy books" and "prophets" are not evidence for existence they are simply claims. If you take the texts away then your God goes with them.

    2. It assumes there is only the chance of no God or one religion. ie it ignores every other religion that has ever existed on the planet, which, if we do this right, they should all be included in possibilities.

    So to make the point we can concede for the moment the 50% chance that "God" exists. Then you have to take the number of different religions that have ever existed and divide the 50% by them to get the probability that following <particular holy book/text> will get you into heaven if you follow it.

    If we *only* took the 3 abrahamic religions (and ignore ALL the others) and apply this, its 50% / 3 = 16.666 (etc..) % probability against Pascal's 50% for atheists.


    Pascal's wager doesn't look that good now, does it?


    Don't you get it? I was mocking the idea. Wow, I am not stupid I do know the implication of Pascals Wager, I am pretty widely read... I just bother to show my intellect most of the time... This sums it up:

    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     Reply #22 - May 03, 2009, 09:59 PM
    Ooh, I didn't notice this thread until now.

    Agnostic all the way. To all those who think Agnostic is a cowardly belief, all I have to say is, I'm just being honest! I really don't know whether God exists or not! I know, I wish I did too but, no can do...

    I THINK God might exist. I base this on the Cosmological Argument which I know is one of the most slammed arguments for the existence of God, but I just don't think it budges so quickly as some might like. However, if you accept it, you end up thinking of God as never having had a beginning, and such a thing is a very wierd thing to believe, to say the least! Which makes me more unsure.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     Reply #23 - May 03, 2009, 10:03 PM
    Quote
    To all those who think Agnostic is a cowardly belief, all I have to say is, I'm just being honest! I really don't know whether God exists or not! I know, I wish I did too but, no can do...


    Good for you.   Afro  Its always best to be honest about what you believe, regardless of what names and straw man arguments you end up being subjected to.  I respect your honesty.

    I'm an atheist, and its not because I'm arrogant, or I think I know God doesn't exist or any other silly straw man.  I'm an atheist because I lack belief in God (or Gods), and I can't do anything to change that.  I'm just being honest too.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     Reply #24 - May 03, 2009, 10:07 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on May 03, 2009, 10:03 PM
    Quote
    To all those who think Agnostic is a cowardly belief, all I have to say is, I'm just being honest! I really don't know whether God exists or not! I know, I wish I did too but, no can do...


    Good for you.   Afro  Its always best to be honest about what you believe, regardless of what names and straw man arguments you end up being subjected to.  I respect your honesty.

    I'm an atheist, and its not because I'm arrogant, or I think I know God doesn't exist or any other silly straw man.  I'm an atheist because I lack belief in God (or Gods), and I can't do anything to change that.  I'm just being honest too.


    Thanks Cheetah  Afro you too.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     Reply #25 - May 06, 2009, 03:21 PM
    Athiests and Agnostics are set to miss out on Eternity.

    These are not my rules.

    God makes them.

    The rule says:

    "Well before your time comes to leave this Earth, you have to have believed completely in God. And not just in any God, but the right God. One True God who is responsible for the Creation of this entire Universe."

    If you do not fulfill this rule, whether buy choice or by accident, that does not matter, you are in one big deep hole in the next life. Its going to be pretty hot and painful hole. And there is no second chance. There is no turning back. Its a one way road that leads only in the forward  direction.

    Sorry boys, tough luck. Thats the rule.

    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     Reply #26 - May 06, 2009, 04:54 PM
    There's no need to be sorry, I couldn't care tuppence for such a stupid rule.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Agnosticism or Atheism ?
     Reply #27 - May 06, 2009, 04:58 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on May 03, 2009, 10:03 PM
    Quote
    To all those who think Agnostic is a cowardly belief, all I have to say is, I'm just being honest! I really don't know whether God exists or not! I know, I wish I did too but, no can do...


    Good for you.   Afro  Its always best to be honest about what you believe, regardless of what names and straw man arguments you end up being subjected to.  I respect your honesty.

    I'm an atheist, and its not because I'm arrogant, or I think I know God doesn't exist or any other silly straw man.  I'm an atheist because I lack belief in God (or Gods), and I can't do anything to change that.  I'm just being honest too.


    Lack of denial is the same thing... Does not make your position stronger, in fact it's devoid of rationality. I define myself in a new term, a god defined by religious scripture does not exist (my atheism) but I don't know of outside those axioms a "god" exists or not. 
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
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