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Theme Changer

 Topic: 'Saving' women

 (Read 12773 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • 'Saving' women
     OP - December 14, 2008, 11:12 PM

    My parents often complain to me that marriages in the non-muslim world are more likely to break down or end up with infidelity. Hence they want me to marry a muslim and therefore have a 'secure' future. In order to do so, I must preserve my 'virginity'.

    Obviously, the world outside Islam is freer and more advantageous for muslim women. But once they drop the shackles of religion, are they missing out on security and a devoted partner? I'm sure many western women convert to Islam for this so called security. Muslim men certainly trump the idea that their women are more 'respected', 'secure' and 'happy'. But I would personally prefer to be unhappy than be shacked to some man.

    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #1 - December 15, 2008, 12:44 AM

    You are never secure if you live in a society where it is acceptable for the man to divorce you with one word but for you to divorce him you have to goto court and spend money & years.

    Where 40days after marrying you, he can choose to take you back anytime he wants and you can not refuse (as per koran). You can of course imagine the amount of emotional blackmail that can result.

    When at any time he can find an imam that will marry him in secret and behind your back.

    When at any time, he can find mosque-buddies who are more then willing to aid him and abid him in his quest to remarry, or to claim back his kids when necessary.

    Perhaps getting a Second wife is not infidelity since he *is* married to her.

    Of course, you do not have to worry about most of this, since most islamic marriages do not end up in polygamy. And if you marry him in a Western country ruled by Western laws, he will not be able to pull most of the sharia crap on you.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #2 - December 15, 2008, 02:10 AM

    A good marriage requires a lot more than both people being of the same religion and/or culture. A good marriage is the result of commitment and kindness and sacrifice and honesty, and no culture or religion has a monopoly on these qualities because they depend entirely on the individual. My father married someone outside his religion and culture (against the wishes of his family!) and my parent's marriage is probably one of the strongest and best I know of.

    Though it has no bridge,
    The cloud climbs up to heaven;
    It does not seek the aid
    Of Gautama's sutras.

    - Ikkyu
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #3 - December 15, 2008, 10:46 AM

    Obviously, the world outside Islam is freer and more advantageous for muslim women. But once they drop the shackles of religion, are they missing out on security and a devoted partner?

    My aunt and uncle just celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary. They aren't Muslim. Next question?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #4 - December 15, 2008, 11:17 AM

    My parents often complain to me that marriages in the non-muslim world are more likely to break down or end up with infidelity. Hence they want me to marry a muslim and therefore have a 'secure' future. In order to do so, I must preserve my 'virginity'.

    Obviously, the world outside Islam is freer and more advantageous for muslim women. But once they drop the shackles of religion, are they missing out on security and a devoted partner? I'm sure many western women convert to Islam for this so called security. Muslim men certainly trump the idea that their women are more 'respected', 'secure' and 'happy'. But I would personally prefer to be unhappy than be shacked to some man.


    Islamic marriages last longer and seem more secure only because in many the women are subservient and see their place as taking authority from the man.

    The wife in many cases would rather stay in the marriage, though she is suffering, rather than come out for then she will be viewed as dishonouring the family name.

    She views it as her duty to keep the family together regardless of what she has to go through.

    She sees her condition as the will of Allah thereby becoming ambivalent to her own happiness.

    She sees that her only way to Jannat is through the footsteps of her husband. Muhammad says most women are in Hell because they are ungrateful to their husbands.

    For these reasons, on the outside it may appear satistically that Islamic or arranged marriages last and are better than marriages of love. However happiness of the woman is not taken into consideration in such statistics.

    I'd prefer a women have the option to have their divorce and live a happy life rather than remain subjugated and unhappy in a loveless marriage for the sake of religious and cultural honour.

    The great Islamic scholar Al Ghazali puts marriage in its proper Islamic context as follows:

    The woman is man's slave and her duty therefore is absolute obedience to the husband in all that he asks of her person. A woman, who at the moment of death enjoys the full approval of her husband, will find her place in Paradise. - Ihya' 'Uloum ed-Din by Ghazali.

    I would marry the person you love and who loves you back and work hard at making it work.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #5 - December 15, 2008, 11:22 AM



    Islamic marriages last longer and seem more secure nly because in many the women are subservient and see their place as taking authority from the man.



    Yep, and the rate of divorce was less in the western world also when women saw men as the authority figures too.

    Now of course some would say that this shows women DO need to be subserviant to men because you give a woman freedom and the divorce rates go up, personally i think that men themselves need to realise that women won;t be treated in that manner anymore, and when they start treaing us in the manner we deserve the divorce rates would go down once again.

    It's all got to balance itself out, and anyway why should marriage be the only lifestyle choice available?

    Some people live together for decades, they then decide to make it a marriage and then get divorced, it's stupid really, it's just a certificate.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #6 - December 15, 2008, 12:01 PM

    My mother had a forced marriage, and after 30 years is still with my father. But she quite honestly says that she would have walked away if she hadn't been blackmailed about her in-laws taking her baby away from her.

    As already mentioned, it is due to subservience of women that Muslim marriages seem to last. I've seen families of my peers who aren't Muslim, and I crave the environment they have. My family were never really close, we never ate together really....
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #7 - December 15, 2008, 12:07 PM



    Islamic marriages last longer and seem more secure nly because in many the women are subservient and see their place as taking authority from the man.



    Yep, and the rate of divorce was less in the western world also when women saw men as the authority figures too.

    Now of course some would say that this shows women DO need to be subserviant to men because you give a woman freedom and the divorce rates go up, personally i think that men themselves need to realise that women won;t be treated in that manner anymore, and when they start treaing us in the manner we deserve the divorce rates would go down once again.

    It's all got to balance itself out, and anyway why should marriage be the only lifestyle choice available?

    Some people live together for decades, they then decide to make it a marriage and then get divorced, it's stupid really, it's just a certificate.



    From what I have seen it is not that the marriages' last, it is more the communities do not allow the divorced woman any future in the society.   The more women become financially independent the better it would be.
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #8 - December 15, 2008, 12:09 PM

    Good observation, but it isn't just a question of finances. There's also ostracism and in some cases threats of violence to contend with.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #9 - December 15, 2008, 01:13 PM

    From what I have seen it is not that the marriages' last, it is more the communities do not allow the divorced woman any future in the society.   The more women become financially independent the better it would be.


    Of course the concept of alimony is non existant in Sharia so thats a big negative to a woman looking for a way out.

    Also more critical is that with sharia the man gets custody of the children. Not many women would want to consider that and would have no option but to stay in the marriage.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #10 - December 15, 2008, 01:24 PM

    One major reason, I believe, that Muslim societies see that marriage is essential for a woman and divorce is looked down upon is because they view a single woman with no male guardian to oversee her as a threat to their male hegemony.

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #11 - December 15, 2008, 08:49 PM

    From what I have seen it is not that the marriages' last, it is more the communities do not allow the divorced woman any future in the society.   The more women become financially independent the better it would be.


    Of course the concept of alimony is non existant in Sharia so thats a big negative to a woman looking for a way out.

    Also more critical is that with sharia the man gets custody of the children. Not many women would want to consider that and would have no option but to stay in the marriage.

    There is some sort of alimony but it is ridiculously low. I believe the writer of the koran just put it there for good form:


    [2:240] Those who die and leave wives, a will shall provide their wives with support for a year, provided they stay within the same household. If they leave, you commit no sin by letting them do whatever they wish, so long as righteousness is maintained. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

    [2:241] The divorcees also shall be provided for, equitably. This is a duty upon the righteous.


    A widow gets a support for 1 year. The divorcee gets provided for equitably. Notice the weasel-word 'equitably'. It will be very hard to argue that a divorcee can expect a better treatment then a widow from the koran.

    So a woman loses on the inheritance part, but then we are told it is because the men will take care of her. Yet as soon as the men she is married to, divorces her, she is out on her ass, probably old, and has to provide for herself in 1 year.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #12 - December 16, 2008, 10:54 AM

    There is some sort of alimony but it is ridiculously low. I believe the writer of the koran just put it there for good form:


    [2:240] Those who die and leave wives, a will shall provide their wives with support for a year, provided they stay within the same household. If they leave, you commit no sin by letting them do whatever they wish, so long as righteousness is maintained. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.


    One year provision for the widow provided she stays within the same household. One would assume it is the household of the in-laws. If she decides to leave that household to make a life of her own she gets nothing. What happens after the year? We'd have to assume she has to marry again within that time frame.

    Quote
    [2:241] The divorcees also shall be provided for, equitably. This is a duty upon the righteous.


    The divorcee gets provided for equitably. Notice the weasel-word 'equitably'. It will be very hard to argue that a divorcee can expect a better treatment then a widow from the koran.


    Notice Picthal's translations says 'provision in kindness':

    [2:241] For divorced women a provision in kindness: a duty for those who ward off (evil).

    This can be literally understood as women who you have divorced you need to provide provision for. Not women who divorce the man.

    In the context of the preceding chapters all verses relate to the man doing something and what the consequence is to the woman. For instance:

    2:34 If any of you die and leave widows behind....

    2:35 There is no blame on you respecting that which you speak indirectly in the asking of (such) women in marriage....

    2:36 There is no blame on you if ye divorce women before consummation.....

    2:37 And if ye divorce them before consummation, but after the fixation of a dower....

    2:40 Those of you who die and leave widows should bequeath for their widows....

    2:41 For divorced women Maintenance (should be provided) on a reasonable (scale)....


    Hence when taken in the proper contextual flow, ayat 2:241 clearly means this stipulation is for women who have been divorced by their husband. For a woman who divorces her husband there is no specific rule for maitenance and hance can be interpreted as the sharia judge sees fit.

    Therefore coming back to the soundness of Muslim marriages, a woman is not guranteed any maintenance if she initiates the divorce with her husband which we know is not an easy process for her.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #13 - December 16, 2008, 11:24 AM

    What about Mohammed wives? They were not allowed to remarry after he died so how did they cope?
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #14 - December 16, 2008, 11:46 AM

    What about Mohammed wives? They were not allowed to remarry after he died so how did they cope?


    They were well looked after by the administrators of the growing Islamic Empire. I suppose they were treated honourably based on their association with the prophet.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #15 - December 16, 2008, 02:12 PM

    Where 40days after marrying you, he can choose to take you back anytime he wants and you can not refuse (as per koran). You can of course imagine the amount of emotional blackmail that can result.


    Correction: marrying should be divorcing.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #16 - December 16, 2008, 02:18 PM

    Where 40days after marrying you, he can choose to take you back anytime he wants and you can not refuse (as per koran). You can of course imagine the amount of emotional blackmail that can result.


    Correction: marrying should be divorcing.

    Really? First I've heard of that, can you provide a source?
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #17 - December 16, 2008, 02:34 PM

    Where 40days after marrying you, he can choose to take you back anytime he wants and you can not refuse (as per koran). You can of course imagine the amount of emotional blackmail that can result.


    Correction: marrying should be divorcing.

    Really? First I've heard of that, can you provide a source?


    Isn't it true that if a man divorces his wife, she must get married to another man who should 'taste her sweetness' before she can go back to her original husband?


    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #18 - December 16, 2008, 02:38 PM



    Isn't it true that if a man divorces his wife, she must get married to another man who should 'taste her sweetness' before she can go back to her original husband?




    Yes, but the first husband has to have divorced his wife 3 times before she becomes that inaccessible for him.

    If he has only said Talaaq the once, he can take her back during a certain time period, once he has said it the third time (even if it is in one sitting, like "Talaaq, Talaaq, Talaaq") then she would have to remarry, and have sex, and be divorced, before husband number 1 could have her back.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #19 - December 16, 2008, 02:45 PM

    Yes, but the first husband has to have divorced his wife 3 times before she becomes that inaccessible for him.

    If he has only said Talaaq the once, he can take her back during a certain time period, once he has said it the third time (even if it is in one sitting, like "Talaaq, Talaaq, Talaaq") then she would have to remarry, and have sex, and be divorced, before husband number 1 could have her back.


    Alright slightly off topic, but WHAT is the reasoning behind this requirement?? Why the heck can't he just take her back? Why must she go sleep with another guy first?!
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #20 - December 16, 2008, 02:51 PM



    Isn't it true that if a man divorces his wife, she must get married to another man who should 'taste her sweetness' before she can go back to her original husband?




    Yes, but the first husband has to have divorced his wife 3 times before she becomes that inaccessible for him.

    If he has only said Talaaq the once, he can take her back during a certain time period, once he has said it the third time (even if it is in one sitting, like "Talaaq, Talaaq, Talaaq") then she would have to remarry, and have sex, and be divorced, before husband number 1 could have her back.


    If he only says Talaaq once or twice, she is not at liberty to go off and get marrried to someone else, right? It only becomes a full divorce after the 3rd talaaq.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #21 - December 16, 2008, 02:57 PM

    Yes, but the first husband has to have divorced his wife 3 times before she becomes that inaccessible for him.

    If he has only said Talaaq the once, he can take her back during a certain time period, once he has said it the third time (even if it is in one sitting, like "Talaaq, Talaaq, Talaaq") then she would have to remarry, and have sex, and be divorced, before husband number 1 could have her back.


    Alright slightly off topic, but WHAT is the reasoning behind this requirement?? Why the heck can't he just take her back? Why must she go sleep with another guy first?!

    It's based on a hadith, a really stupid one.
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #22 - December 16, 2008, 02:59 PM

    It's based on a hadith, a really stupid one.

    Saying the hadith is a 'really stupid one' doesn't really narrow it down much Cheesy Cheesy

    Anyone got the source for this? I have a feeling this is gonna be good.
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #23 - December 16, 2008, 03:06 PM

    It's based on a hadith, a really stupid one.

    Saying the hadith is a 'really stupid one' doesn't really narrow it down much Cheesy Cheesy

    Anyone got the source for this? I have a feeling this is gonna be good.

    This one-

    "Narrated Ikrima: 'Rifaa divorced his wife whereupon Abdur-Rahman married her. Aisha said that the lady came wearing a green veil and complained to her (Aisha) and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating. It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's messenger came, Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes! When Abdur-Rahman heard that his wife had gone to the prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him, but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment. Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's messenger! She has told a lie. I am very strong and can satisfy her, but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifaa." Allah's messenger said to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifaa unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." The prophet saw two boys with Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that Abdur-Rahman said, "Yes." The prophet said, "You claim what you claim (that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow."" (Hadith, Bukhari, vol. 7, # 715)

    That hadith makes me sick to the stomach finmad

    (I don't know if it's based on any other related hadith/verses).
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #24 - December 16, 2008, 03:13 PM

    PeruvianSkies: Thanks! I remember that hadith! However I'm asking WHY it is required that a woman has to marry/have sex with another guy before going back to her 1st husband. I agree that hadith is sickening.
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #25 - December 16, 2008, 03:19 PM

    PeruvianSkies: Thanks! I remember that hadith! However I'm asking WHY it is required that a woman has to marry/have sex with another guy before going back to her 1st husband. I agree that hadith is sickening.

    Oh fair enough, I'm not really sure about why. That is an odd rule.
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #26 - December 16, 2008, 04:14 PM

    I believe that this is a remnant of Bedouin custom where spouses were constantly circulated in a series of short-lived marriages to maximise the offspring of the tribe. (I can reference this later if people are interested). In the documentary 'Divorce Sharia Style' the judge tells a man who thinks he has divorced his wife that she may have to do this before they can remarry. It's called a 'tahlil' marriage when the couple pay a man to marry, have sex with and divorce the woman before she can marry her ex-husband again. It's certainly illogical to say the least.

    On ne naƮt pas femme, on le devient
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #27 - December 16, 2008, 04:20 PM

    I believe that this is a remnant of Bedouin custom where spouses were constantly circulated in a series of short-lived marriages to maximise the offspring of the tribe. (I can reference this later if people are interested). In the documentary 'Divorce Sharia Style' the judge tells a man who thinks he has divorced his wife that she may have to do this before they can remarry. It's called a 'tahlil' marriage when the couple pay a man to marry, have sex with and divorce the woman before she can marry her ex-husband again. It's certainly illogical to say the least.


    Joanne: thanks very much! Yes if you have the time (and can be bothered) I'd love to see any information you can dig up! So, it appears we have another plageurised thing in "Allah's" religion.
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #28 - December 16, 2008, 04:47 PM

    The Islamic answer would be to TEACH the man self control.  If he doesn't want to face having his wife screwed by another man, then he has to think carefully before he says the final Talaaq.


    If he only says Talaaq once or twice, she is not at liberty to go off and get marrried to someone else, right? It only becomes a full divorce after the 3rd talaaq.



    Only for a certain time period, if he doesn't take her back within that time then he loses that chance.

    Nor is any woman free to go off straight after even the final talaaq because there is the 3 month waiting period to see if she is pregnant before she can consider marrying again.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: 'Saving' women
     Reply #29 - December 16, 2008, 04:53 PM

    I believe that this is a remnant of Bedouin custom where spouses were constantly circulated in a series of short-lived marriages to maximise the offspring of the tribe. (I can reference this later if people are interested). In the documentary 'Divorce Sharia Style' the judge tells a man who thinks he has divorced his wife that she may have to do this before they can remarry. It's called a 'tahlil' marriage when the couple pay a man to marry, have sex with and divorce the woman before she can marry her ex-husband again. It's certainly illogical to say the least.


    Joanne: thanks very much! Yes if you have the time (and can be bothered) I'd love to see any information you can dig up! So, it appears we have another plageurised thing in "Allah's" religion.

    The original Bedouin customs were quite different from Islam and divorce for women was a heck of a lot easier-
    http://ezinearticles.com/?Bedouin-Marriage&id=670804
    http://www.qatarvisitor.com/index.php?cID=412&pID=1202&pName=bedu

    Women can marry multiple men Grin Mohammed hated them for being promiscuous (second link). I cant find anything about remarrying though.
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