She Might Not Obey Her Male Guardian

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- TomTom
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She Might Not Obey Her Male Guardian
OP - December 29, 2008, 12:36 PM

A Saudi study finds that economic abuse of women in the Kingdom is widespread:
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=117402&d=22&m=12&y=2008&pix=kingdom.jpg&category=Kingdom

Social, verbal and economic abuse of women is more widespread in Saudi society than physical and sexual abuse, according to a recent study on violence against women.

The study, which was conducted by Khaled Al-Radihan, 51, an assistant professor of anthropology at King Saud University in Riyadh, involved 267 women....

Al-Radihan said that economic abuse is when the husband forcefully takes his wife?s money or when he applies for a bank loan under her name without her consent. The results of his research showed that 67 percent of women suffer from economic abuse.

?Economically abusing a woman also includes depriving her of her inheritance, which is very common here,? he added.

But why are Saudi women subject to all this abuse?

Well, that's a tricky one...

Many reasons lead to violence against women. She could be really stubborn and difficult to deal with, she might have unbearable financial demands and she might not obey her male guardian, said Al-Radihan.

Ah.
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Re: She Might Not Obey Her Male Guardian
Reply #1 - December 29, 2008, 12:43 PM

Did someone really need to conduct a study? Some things are just obvious aren?t they?

oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!"
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Re: She Might Not Obey Her Male Guardian
Reply #2 - December 29, 2008, 01:37 PM

Boy do I know the feeling lol my ex husband ran up massive debts in my name, and when i left him I had to struggle to get them removed from my name by proving to them that the only reason I allowed it to go on for so long was fear of violence. He also used to take whatever money I had away from me, saying I was not the type of person to be trusted with money.

I mean apparantly in Islam he isn;t allowed to take any of your money, and yet I know many women who have their money taken from them, but I also know some who have husbands that would never dream of touching their wifes money, and they cite Islam as the reason they wouldn't do that to their wives.

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Re: She Might Not Obey Her Male Guardian
Reply #3 - December 29, 2008, 02:03 PM

Quote from: animation_guy on December 29, 2008, 12:43 PM
Did someone really need to conduct a study? Some things are just obvious aren?t they?

Having a properly peer-reviewed piece of research published takes information, no matter how seemingly obvious, out of the realm of unban myth and into the realm of fact. If it is confirmed upon repeat by others, that further buttresses its reliability.

Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
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Re: She Might Not Obey Her Male Guardian
Reply #4 - December 29, 2008, 04:41 PM

Berbs, imo in islam the male is allowed to take the money of the woman. Once you open the door for violence vs disobedience, how else can you not give the husband control for money matters?

Beside her earnings which the husband can just dip into, sure the woman can keep her dowry and some argue for her share of the inheritance. But I only found text in support of her keeping her dowry.

As for the inheritance, I only found text stating that she should get the inheritance from her parental family. But once she owns her inheritance, there is nothing stopping her marital family, from applying the violence vs disobedience to get their paws on the inheritance.

Like you said once, it all comes down to the strength of personality of the woman. However this strength can be worn down through violence, and through family members holding small things against her (witnessing fahisha) to break her.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: She Might Not Obey Her Male Guardian
Reply #5 - December 30, 2008, 06:47 AM

Quote from: Baal on December 29, 2008, 04:41 PM
imo in islam the male is allowed to take the money of the woman.

=============

Not against her will I believe.

"I'm Agnostic about God."

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==
"If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran." Maryam Namazie
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Re: She Might Not Obey Her Male Guardian
Reply #6 - December 30, 2008, 09:38 AM

Quote from: Emerald on December 30, 2008, 06:47 AM
Quote from: Baal on December 29, 2008, 04:41 PM
imo in islam the male is allowed to take the money of the woman.

=============

Not against her will I believe.

The was my understanding of it too.

A strong woman can hold her own against it, and a decent man wouldn't even consider taking it, the problem arises when you get an asshole of a man and a weak woman (like I was back then) and then they can take everything through fear.

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Re: She Might Not Obey Her Male Guardian
Reply #7 - December 30, 2008, 09:39 AM

Quote from: Emerald on December 30, 2008, 06:47 AM
Quote from: Baal on December 29, 2008, 04:41 PM
imo in islam the male is allowed to take the money of the woman.

=============

Not against her will I believe.

Goes something like this:

Husband: Give me this money.
Wife: Fuck No.
Husband: You dare disobey me?
Husband: <preach> <preach>
Husband: <leave her bed> <leave her bed>
Husband: <slap> <slap> <slap>
Wife: <returns to obedience>
Husband: <cha-ching> <cha-ching> <cha-ching>

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: She Might Not Obey Her Male Guardian
Reply #8 - December 30, 2008, 09:50 AM

Quote from: Baal on December 30, 2008, 09:39 AM

Goes something like this:

Husband: Give me this money.
Wife: Fuck No.
Husband: You dare disobey me?
Husband: <preach> <preach>
Husband: <leave her bed> <leave her bed>
Husband: <slap> <slap> <slap>
Wife: <returns to obedience>
Husband: <cha-ching> <cha-ching> <cha-ching>

=========

Not in accordance with Islam.

For ex.:

http://islamqa.com/ar/ref/112032/%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%AA%D8%A8%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B2%D9%88%D8%AC%D8%A9

(Engl. trans. not available for this fatwa), part of it states that a man ain't allowed to take his wife's $$ against her will.

"I'm Agnostic about God."

Richard Dawkins
==
"If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran." Maryam Namazie
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Re: She Might Not Obey Her Male Guardian
Reply #9 - December 30, 2008, 09:52 AM

Quote from: Baal on December 30, 2008, 09:39 AM

Goes something like this:

Husband: Give me this money.
Wife: Fuck No.
Husband: You dare disobey me?
Husband: <preach> <preach>
Husband: <leave her bed> <leave her bed>
Husband: <slap> <slap> <slap>
Wife: <returns to obedience>
Husband: <cha-ching> <cha-ching> <cha-ching>

Yeah, pretty much.

But the thing is, is it Islamically allowed to do that?

I was always taught that it was wrong, when i would tell my parents that my husband had taken my money, they would get angry and say he wasn't allowed to. My ex husbands even stricter brother would never dream of taking money off his wife, even though he is more Islamic than my ex husband was.

Everyone around me would tell me my ex husband was wrong to do so, my ex husband didn't care though.

So if everyone, including my old school parents, and his old school parents, all believed he did not have a right to take my money, how can it be Islamic?

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: She Might Not Obey Her Male Guardian
Reply #10 - December 30, 2008, 10:21 AM

Quote from: BerberElla on December 30, 2008, 09:52 AM
Quote from: Baal on December 30, 2008, 09:39 AM

Goes something like this:

Husband: Give me this money.
Wife: Fuck No.
Husband: You dare disobey me?
Husband: <preach> <preach>
Husband: <leave her bed> <leave her bed>
Husband: <slap> <slap> <slap>
Wife: <returns to obedience>
Husband: <cha-ching> <cha-ching> <cha-ching>

Yeah, pretty much.

But the thing is, is it Islamically allowed to do that?

I was always taught that it was wrong, when i would tell my parents that my husband had taken my money, they would get angry and say he wasn't allowed to. My ex husbands even stricter brother would never dream of taking money off his wife, even though he is more Islamic than my ex husband was.

Everyone around me would tell me my ex husband was wrong to do so, my ex husband didn't care though.

So if everyone, including my old school parents, and his old school parents, all believed he did not have a right to take my money, how can it be Islamic?

My understanding is that it is like Baal said, verse 3:34 would be the correct one for this. I am sure someone will say I missed the context etc.

Husband: Come on Love give me your money?
Wife: No, I need to buy some prayer mats.
H: You are being disloyal.
W: No, I am not it is my money.
H: Come on Love it has been 3 days now that I need your money.
W: Sorry, I am going to Tesco's.
H: Slap Slap Slap
W: OK I see your point. Also I remember that a woman and slaves that do not obey their husbands/masters will never get into paradise. I will give you my money.
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Re: She Might Not Obey Her Male Guardian
Reply #11 - December 30, 2008, 10:29 AM

Quote from: TomTom on December 30, 2008, 10:21 AM

My understanding is that it is like Baal said, verse 3:34 would be the correct one for this. I am sure someone will say I missed the context etc.

Husband: Come on Love give me your money?
Wife: No, I need to buy some prayer mats.
H: You are being disloyal.
W: No, I am not it is my money.
H: Come on Love it has been 3 days now that I need your money.
W: Sorry, I am going to Tesco's.
H: Slap Slap Slap
W: OK I see your point. Also I remember that a woman and slaves that do not obey their husbands/masters will never get into paradise. I will give you my money.

======

B4 the slaps, or right after the 1st one, she can go to any Islamic court....Islam does not address this point clearly, so it depends on the country and judges...etc.

Based on the Fatwa above, which comes from an extremest Muslim, husband can't do that.

Islamically, he can deprive her from the salary, by not allowing her to work...

"I'm Agnostic about God."

Richard Dawkins
==
"If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran." Maryam Namazie
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Re: She Might Not Obey Her Male Guardian
Reply #12 - December 30, 2008, 10:48 AM

Quote from: TomTom on December 30, 2008, 10:21 AM

My understanding is that it is like Baal said, verse 3:34 would be the correct one for this. I am sure someone will say I missed the context etc.

Husband: Come on Love give me your money?
Wife: No, I need to buy some prayer mats.
H: You are being disloyal.
W: No, I am not it is my money.
H: Come on Love it has been 3 days now that I need your money.
W: Sorry, I am going to Tesco's.
H: Slap Slap Slap
W: OK I see your point. Also I remember that a woman and slaves that do not obey their husbands/masters will never get into paradise. I will give you my money.

A man can not force a woman to do anything that goes against Islam, ie he couldn't for instance make her have anal sex with him by using the disobediance line, so how can he think he can use that for the money rule?

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: She Might Not Obey Her Male Guardian
Reply #13 - December 30, 2008, 11:04 AM

Quote from: BerberElla on December 30, 2008, 10:48 AM
Quote from: TomTom on December 30, 2008, 10:21 AM

My understanding is that it is like Baal said, verse 3:34 would be the correct one for this. I am sure someone will say I missed the context etc.

Husband: Come on Love give me your money?
Wife: No, I need to buy some prayer mats.
H: You are being disloyal.
W: No, I am not it is my money.
H: Come on Love it has been 3 days now that I need your money.
W: Sorry, I am going to Tesco's.
H: Slap Slap Slap
W: OK I see your point. Also I remember that a woman and slaves that do not obey their husbands/masters will never get into paradise. I will give you my money.

A man can not force a woman to do anything that goes against Islam, ie he couldn't for instance make her have anal sex with him by using the disobediance line, so how can he think he can use that for the money rule?

The husband has to protect (is the guardian of) the wife. Protection (Guardianship) is a very broad term, the husband knows what is best for the wife, this includes the way she spends her money or to whom she gives it to.

Do you know of another rule?
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Re: She Might Not Obey Her Male Guardian
Reply #14 - December 30, 2008, 11:18 AM

Wow, I just went looking for information to support my view, and found information to support your view , check this out:

Quote
1- Spending on one's husband and children is among the greatest forms of worship since it is a charity and keeping ties of kinship. The evidence for this is the narration of Zaynab, the wife of Abdullaah bin Mas'ood in which she said: "O Prophet of Allaah! Today you ordered people to give alms and I had an ornament and intended to give it as alms, but Ibn Mas'ood said that he and his children deserved it more than anybody else'. The Prophet replied: "Ibn Mas'ood had spoken the truth. Your husband and your children have more right to it than anybody else." [Al Bukhaari and Muslim]

http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?lang=E&Id=92004&Option=FatwaId

So it's not outright forcing, more like religious coercing, much like the angels cursing a woman till morning if she doesn't give sex.

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Re: She Might Not Obey Her Male Guardian
Reply #15 - December 30, 2008, 01:02 PM

That's part of Zaka, or Sadaqa;

Nice Hadith, cuz the wife is gonna pay sadaka or zaka anyway, why not giving it to her family (kids and/or husband)?

Quote
If the parents are poor and the daughter has wealth surplus to her needs, then she has to spend on her parents in accordance with their needs, without failing to meet her own needs. The woman?s maintenance is obligatory upon her husband: he must spend on that which is essential for her maintenance. If the woman is working then her money is hers and hers alone, unless the husband stipulates the condition that he should get the money or some of it in return for her going out of the house and his missing out on some of his rights. But if she has enough money she can keep it for her own needs or for her children?s or parents? needs. If she has brothers or sisters, and one of them takes care of spending on the parents, then the others are relieved of the obligation, and he will have the reward; or they can all agree that each of them will give a specific amount.

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/12214

Quote
If the wife wants to give the zakaah on her jewellery or anything else to her husband who is in debt and cannot pay it off or who is poor, there is nothing wrong with that, because it comes under the general meaning of the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

?As-Sadaqaat (here it means Zakaah) are only for the Fuqaraa? (poor), and Al-Masaakeen (the poor)?? [al-Tawbah 9:60]

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/12338

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==
"If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran." Maryam Namazie
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Re: She Might Not Obey Her Male Guardian
Reply #16 - December 30, 2008, 07:05 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on December 30, 2008, 10:48 AM
Quote from: TomTom on December 30, 2008, 10:21 AM

My understanding is that it is like Baal said, verse 3:34 would be the correct one for this. I am sure someone will say I missed the context etc.

Husband: Come on Love give me your money?
Wife: No, I need to buy some prayer mats.
H: You are being disloyal.
W: No, I am not it is my money.
H: Come on Love it has been 3 days now that I need your money.
W: Sorry, I am going to Tesco's.
H: Slap Slap Slap
W: OK I see your point. Also I remember that a woman and slaves that do not obey their husbands/masters will never get into paradise. I will give you my money.

A man can not force a woman to do anything that goes against Islam, ie he couldn't for instance make her have anal sex with him by using the disobediance line, so how can he think he can use that for the money rule?

Anal sex is unislamic, so the man can not force (although there is ways around that).

Taking her dowry is against koran. He can not force her.

Taking her inheritance is a grey area. The text seems to indicate that no one can prevent her from receiving her inheritance. What happens to the inheritance after that is open. So as long as the husband is capable of 'ordering' the wife, then why couldn't he order her from giving it to him or spending it on his priorities.

Money she earns from work has little to do with islam. So he can order her up on it. It is dirty and disgusting, and this is why a lot of muslims seem to think that it goes against islam. But if a muslim is psychologically inclined to mooch, then he will have no problem doing it and islam can only be guilty of creating a system without proper checks and balances.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: She Might Not Obey Her Male Guardian
Reply #17 - January 01, 2009, 05:39 AM

Quote from: TomTom on December 30, 2008, 11:04 AM
Quote from: BerberElla on December 30, 2008, 10:48 AM
Quote from: TomTom on December 30, 2008, 10:21 AM

My understanding is that it is like Baal said, verse 3:34 would be the correct one for this. I am sure someone will say I missed the context etc.

Husband: Come on Love give me your money?
Wife: No, I need to buy some prayer mats.
H: You are being disloyal.
W: No, I am not it is my money.
H: Come on Love it has been 3 days now that I need your money.
W: Sorry, I am going to Tesco's.
H: Slap Slap Slap
W: OK I see your point. Also I remember that a woman and slaves that do not obey their husbands/masters will never get into paradise. I will give you my money.

A man can not force a woman to do anything that goes against Islam, ie he couldn't for instance make her have anal sex with him by using the disobediance line, so how can he think he can use that for the money rule?

The husband has to protect (is the guardian of) the wife. Protection (Guardianship) is a very broad term, the husband knows what is best for the wife, this includes the way she spends her money or to whom she gives it to.

Do you know of another rule?

Oh come on. I never heard any Muslim, not even the Wahabis say this. This is your and Baal's conjecture.

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Re: She Might Not Obey Her Male Guardian
Reply #18 - January 02, 2009, 09:11 PM

Quote from: fading on January 01, 2009, 05:39 AM
Quote from: TomTom on December 30, 2008, 11:04 AM
Quote from: BerberElla on December 30, 2008, 10:48 AM
Quote from: TomTom on December 30, 2008, 10:21 AM

My understanding is that it is like Baal said, verse 3:34 would be the correct one for this. I am sure someone will say I missed the context etc.

Husband: Come on Love give me your money?
Wife: No, I need to buy some prayer mats.
H: You are being disloyal.
W: No, I am not it is my money.
H: Come on Love it has been 3 days now that I need your money.
W: Sorry, I am going to Tesco's.
H: Slap Slap Slap
W: OK I see your point. Also I remember that a woman and slaves that do not obey their husbands/masters will never get into paradise. I will give you my money.

A man can not force a woman to do anything that goes against Islam, ie he couldn't for instance make her have anal sex with him by using the disobediance line, so how can he think he can use that for the money rule?

The husband has to protect (is the guardian of) the wife. Protection (Guardianship) is a very broad term, the husband knows what is best for the wife, this includes the way she spends her money or to whom she gives it to.

Do you know of another rule?

Oh come on. I never heard any Muslim, not even the Wahabis say this. This is your and Baal's conjecture.

I never said or conjectured to anything about the male being a guardian. But funny you should mention it, because in the last 3 month I heard Two muslims state something like this to me: "Women are free to do as they wish, but men are just guardians to make sure the women do not do anything unislamic". And now Tomtom came to the same conclusion.

I guess this is how they chose to interpret the Three times in the koran where it said 'men are preferred by a degree over women'.

Anyways, this must be some stupid meme going around in the islamic cultures right now, hope it will die away soon.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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