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 Topic: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'

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  • Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     OP - January 03, 2009, 09:23 PM

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/03/airtran-flight-muslim-passengers


    Quote
    Nine Muslims, eight of them US-born citizens, were ordered off a US flight on New Year's Day after two girls overheard what airline officials described as suspicious remarks.

    The group, including three children, were removed as they boarded an AirTran flight from Washington to Florida, where they planned to attend a religious retreat. One of the nine, Kashif Irfan, an anaesthetist, said his brother and his wife were discussing the safest place to sit. "[They] were discussing some aspect of airport security," he told local TV. "The only thing he said was: 'Wow, the jets are right next to my window.' I think they were remarking about safety."

    After other passengers informed the crew of the remarks, the pilot decided to abort the flight. All 104 passengers were cleared by the FBI, but AirTran refused to take the Muslims, who were forced to pay for a ticket with another carrier. A spokesman for the airline defended the decision. "People made comments they shouldn't have made on the airplane," Tad Hutcheson said. "Other people heard them, misconstrued them. It just so happened these people were of Muslim faith and appearance. It escalated, it got out of hand and everyone took precautions."

    A spokeswoman for the Transportation Security Agency backed the airline. "Security is everybody's responsibility," Ellen Howe said. "Someone heard something ... inappropriate, and then the airline decided to act on it. We support [the pilot's] call to do that."

    Irfan said he thought the group, of south Asian descent, had been targeted because of their appearance. The women were wearing headscarves and the men sported beards.

    "It was an ordeal," said Abdur Razack Aziz, another one of the group. "It was paranoid people. It was very sad."


    Life is a sexually transmitted disease which is invariably fatal.
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #1 - January 03, 2009, 09:39 PM

    If you are dressed and look like a Muslim then why even think about flying within the U.S.A.? America is another place I don't intend on ever visiting.

    oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!"
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #2 - January 03, 2009, 10:09 PM

    Muslims fly in the States each and every day and seldom have any problems.... pretty much like every where else in the world. I have Muslims in my neighborhood and everyone treats them as if they were people of any other faith, or no faith at all.

    Rather than get pissed at the people on the plane who were fearful, Muslims should get pissed at their brethren who have caused this sort of fear through acts of terrorism. After all, those weren't Danes that flew airplanes into buildings or blew up tubes, buses, hotels, cafes... and the list goes on and on.
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #3 - January 03, 2009, 10:50 PM

    Muslims fly in the States each and every day and seldom have any problems


    You have to surrender so much information about yourself you might as well be tagged like an animal.

    oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!"
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #4 - January 03, 2009, 11:42 PM

    Muslims fly in the States each and every day and seldom have any problems


    You have to surrender so much information about yourself you might as well be tagged like an animal.


    You're either knowingly engaging in hyperbole, or you've never flown in the States. If you honestly believe that, I suggest a tinfoil hat  Cheesy
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #5 - January 03, 2009, 11:55 PM

    we usually don't have too much of a problem, but my mom and sis got pulled off to the side a few times to be privately searched (they were wearing hijabs). i wore my kufi and nobody bothered me. i was surprised that a TSA guy let me finish my drink, take it past security, usually they're more anal than that.

    i've prayed in the airport post 9/11, didn't have any problems, even made wudu and prayed on the plane (in my seat, and not too loud).

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #6 - January 03, 2009, 11:58 PM

    we usually don't have too much of a problem, but my mom and sis got pulled off to the side a few times to be privately searched (they were wearing hijabs). i wore my kufi and nobody bothered me. i was surprised that a TSA guy let me finish my drink, take it past security, usually they're more anal than that.

    i've prayed in the airport post 9/11, didn't have any problems, even made wudu and prayed on the plane (in my seat, and not too loud).


    Yep, the TSA seem to be equal opportunity harassers. I flew out of Reagan national and they treated everyone the same. We all had to take our shoes off and I had a dress blazer I had to take off. As far as providing so much information that you might as well be tagged like an animal, that consisted of handing over our boarding pass.... oh the humanity!
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #7 - January 04, 2009, 12:07 AM

    I have friends though that have been detained for hours.  Roll Eyes

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #8 - January 04, 2009, 12:13 AM

    I have friends though that have been detained for hours.  Roll Eyes


    It happens. I feel bad for the people it happens to, but it's hard to fault people for wanting to be careful. We had a little white haired old grandmother here who was strip searched because she had some sort of metal thing in her chest after breast cancer surgery. No one fitting that description blew up tubes, buses, cafes, pizza parlors, or flew airplanes into buildings.

    People should get pissed at those lunatics who did these things causing us all to have to go through this idiocy at airports, not to mention being pissed at them for all the innocents they murdered. Given what their victims went through, taking off our shoes, having to provide picture ID, and occasionally being detained seems rather minor, to put it mildly.
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #9 - January 04, 2009, 12:14 AM

    People should get pissed at those lunatics who did these things causing us all to have to go through this idiocy at airports, not to mention being pissed at them for all the innocents they murdered. Given what their victims went through, taking off our shoes, having to provide picture ID, and occasionally being detained seems rather minor, to put it mildly.

    we're all pissed, but what can ya do?

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #10 - January 04, 2009, 12:23 AM

    People should get pissed at those lunatics who did these things causing us all to have to go through this idiocy at airports, not to mention being pissed at them for all the innocents they murdered. Given what their victims went through, taking off our shoes, having to provide picture ID, and occasionally being detained seems rather minor, to put it mildly.

    we're all pissed, but what can ya do?


    I know we're all pissed, but the question is, at who? They've had to put TSA people through special training recently to deal with all the abuse they're getting from the public. And how about the lawsuits? Remember those flying imams and their idiotic lawsuit? Remember the hair raising details of that case where they were asking for seatbelt extensions even though they weren't overweight, kept changing seats, and generally freaking out the other passengers? Do you want to take any bets as to how many lawyers are contacting these people hoping to sue? I bet they've received several dozen such calls at least.

    As for what can we do, I suppose we have two options:

    1) Do what the Israelis do - try to find terrorists, or
    2) Do what the TSA does as to try to avoid hurt feelings, hysterics, and lawsuits and try to find weapons, thereby treating even little old grandmas and babies as potential terrorists and wasting precious resources.
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #11 - January 04, 2009, 12:39 AM

    Muslims fly in the States each and every day and seldom have any problems


    You have to surrender so much information about yourself you might as well be tagged like an animal.


    You're either knowingly engaging in hyperbole, or you've never flown in the States. If you honestly believe that, I suggest a tinfoil hat  Cheesy


    You must be ignorant or something.

    In America, airlines hand over data such as name, address, credit card number, origin and destination, passport number for international travellers, travel history, travel companions, and seat assignments, dates of birth, account details of frequent fliers, hotel accommodations of those booking a package through a travel agent, and even meal requests (ordering the halal option) to form a more complete picture of a traveller to place in context with previous data accumulated.

    They clearly aren't monitoring people called Buster, Paul or David. If you are brown or have a Muslim name or ever flown to a Muslim country then you have a greater chance of being targeted. I'm guessing that this is something that will never concern you.


    Before accusing me of "engaging in hyperbole", if you just searched the internet then you'd  find the following articles which took me 2 minutes to find.


    -----------------------------------------

    Associated Press
    The world's largest airline said it shared approximately 1.2 million passenger itineraries with the Transportation Security Administration?.followed similar disclosures by JetBlue Airways and Northwest Airlines

    A nationwide computer system aimed at screening all airline passengers is being developed by the TSA. The Computer Assisted Passenger Prescreening System, ordered by Congress after the Sept. 11 attacks, will check such things as credit reports and consumer transactions and compare passenger names with those on government watch lists.

    nytimes.com
    The European Union's highest court ruled Tuesday that the Union had overstepped its authority by agreeing to give the United States personal details about airline passengers on flights to America in an effort to fight terrorism.

    theregister.co.uk
    Feds implement mass passenger data trawl
    Introducing the 'Automated Targeting System

    Whenever the US government runs afoul of public opinion with some data-mining scheme threatening to invade the privacy of millions, it changes the name and then goes ahead as planned. We had the "Total Information Awareness" (TIA) federal scheme to mine official and commercial databases, which morphed into the MATRIX, an interconnected state scheme to mine official and commercial databases, to which the federal government has access.

    We had the Computer Assisted Passenger Pre-screening System (CAPPS-2), a scheme to mine official and commercial databases and produce a threat assessment of each passenger. After the public indicated its displeasure, its name was changed to the warmer and fuzzier "Secure Flight", but Congress still shut it down due to privacy and accuracy concerns.

    Now it's back, with a new name and acronym, the Automated Targeting System (ATS).

    "ATS standardises names, addresses, conveyance names, and similar data so these data elements can be more easily associated with other business data and personal information to form a more complete picture of a traveller, import, or export in context with previous behaviour of the parties involved".

    So it's quite clear that commercial profiles will be in the mix: whether one rents or owns a house, credit activity, travel history, and the like. It was this sort of personal data that gave CAPPS-2 such a bad name among the public, and prompted Congress to suspend it. People are less concerned about a quick check against lists of known terrorists and wanted criminals. They're a lot more concerned about being "evaluated" on the basis of where they live, what they buy, where they travel, and how up-to-date their credit payments are by some remote government clerk with a computer.

    oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!"
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #12 - January 04, 2009, 12:43 AM

    animator, that mostly happens if you're coming from or going to another country, in customs security and shit like that, and they ask everybody those questions.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #13 - January 04, 2009, 12:50 AM

    Yup. And if you are a single man entering New Zealand and travelling alone they automatically assume you're smuggling drugs. Seriously.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #14 - January 04, 2009, 12:57 AM

    Muslims fly in the States each and every day and seldom have any problems


    You have to surrender so much information about yourself you might as well be tagged like an animal.


    You're either knowingly engaging in hyperbole, or you've never flown in the States. If you honestly believe that, I suggest a tinfoil hat  Cheesy


    You must be ignorant or something.

    In America, airlines hand over data such as name, address, credit card number, origin and destination, passport number for international travellers, travel history, travel companions, and seat assignments, dates of birth, account details of frequent fliers, hotel accommodations of those booking a package through a travel agent, and even meal requests (ordering the halal option) to form a more complete picture of a traveller to place in context with previous data accumulated.

    They clearly aren't monitoring people called Buster, Paul or David. If you are brown have a Muslim name or ever flown to a Muslim country then you have a greater chance of being targeted. I?m guessing that this is something that will never concern you.


    Before accusing me ?engaging in hyperbole?, if you just searched the internet then you'd  find the following articles which took me 2 minutes to find.


    -----------------------------------------

    Associated Press
    The world's largest airline said it shared approximately 1.2 million passenger itineraries with the Transportation Security Administration?.followed similar disclosures by JetBlue Airways and Northwest Airlines

    A nationwide computer system aimed at screening all airline passengers is being developed by the TSA. The Computer Assisted Passenger Prescreening System, ordered by Congress after the Sept. 11 attacks, will check such things as credit reports and consumer transactions and compare passenger names with those on government watch lists.

    nytimes.com
    The European Union's highest court ruled Tuesday that the Union had overstepped its authority by agreeing to give the United States personal details about airline passengers on flights to America in an effort to fight terrorism.

    theregister.co.uk
    Feds implement mass passenger data trawl
    Introducing the 'Automated Targeting System

    Whenever the US government runs afoul of public opinion with some data-mining scheme threatening to invade the privacy of millions, it changes the name and then goes ahead as planned. We had the "Total Information Awareness" (TIA) federal scheme to mine official and commercial databases, which morphed into the MATRIX, an interconnected state scheme to mine official and commercial databases, to which the federal government has access.

    We had the Computer Assisted Passenger Pre-screening System (CAPPS-2), a scheme to mine official and commercial databases and produce a threat assessment of each passenger. After the public indicated its displeasure, its name was changed to the warmer and fuzzier "Secure Flight", but Congress still shut it down due to privacy and accuracy concerns.

    Now it's back, with a new name and acronym, the Automated Targeting System (ATS).

    "ATS standardises names, addresses, conveyance names, and similar data so these data elements can be more easily associated with other business data and personal information to form a more complete picture of a traveller, import, or export in context with previous behaviour of the parties involved".

    So it's quite clear that commercial profiles will be in the mix: whether one rents or owns a house, credit activity, travel history, and the like. It was this sort of personal data that gave CAPPS-2 such a bad name among the public, and prompted Congress to suspend it. People are less concerned about a quick check against lists of known terrorists and wanted criminals. They're a lot more concerned about being "evaluated" on the basis of where they live, what they buy, where they travel, and how up-to-date their credit payments are by some remote government clerk with a computer.



    Oh dear, I see even the tinfoil isn't helping.

    It's the job of the TSA, or any security organization, to check this information. Imagine finding out if a person is who they say they are before you let them on airplanes that terrorists have been hijacking, and trying to hijack for years!

    My gosh, I can do a credit check on someone and I don't work for the TSA. Any employer can do the same, and often do. This is hardly anything to go into hysterics over.

    None of this rises to the level of being treated like an animal. If you don't like it, don't fly. No where does the US Constitution address a person's right to fly on an airplane without providing basic information. And we don't treat people, Muslim or otherwise, like animals.

    The TSA, or other security organizations didn't pull these tactics out of their arses, they developed them after studying the way the 9-11 hijackers lived and achieved their disgusting goals.

    If they find money coming into a person's bank account from the same sources the 9-11 hijackers received their money from, by all means, pull them off the frickin' airplane! If someone has something that doesn't add up in their information, please, by all means, check things out a little further! If people see something suspicious, by all means, tell someone! It's better to be safe than damn sorry  lipsrsealed

    People can debate as to whether these tactics are sufficiently effective, or whether they waste time and resources, but people should try to reign in their emotions a little. I don't tend to get all worked up because someone had to, God forbid (!) catch a later flight.

    Get a grip  Afro
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #15 - January 04, 2009, 01:02 AM

    Yup. And if you are a single man entering New Zealand and travelling alone they automatically assume you're smuggling drugs. Seriously.


    We have a new show coming on TV here showing our border agents and customs people and what they go through. It was unreal seeing the teasers for it and the, well, strange places people hide drugs  wacko whistling2

  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #16 - January 04, 2009, 01:10 AM

    The Kiwis are funny like that. They'll search your luggage but I've never had a body search. Maybe they only do body searches if they find drugs in your luggage. Weird. Funny little country.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #17 - January 04, 2009, 01:24 AM

    They'll search your luggage but I've never had a body search. Maybe they only do body searches if they find drugs in your luggage. Weird. Funny little country.


    What's your complexion and your name? I've got a feeling you are more likely to got a fist up your arss (arss with a R), to see if you have a bomb up there, if you are brown and your name is Hussain. God only knows what they'll do if you are flying in from Pakistan.

    Your experiences will greatly differ depending on your background.

    oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!"
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #18 - January 04, 2009, 01:36 AM

    I'm white and not called Hassan. I was just commenting on their obvious policy re drug smuggling. The thing is that everyone knows about it so obviously if somebody did want to smuggle drugs into NZ they'd simply travel with a companion or hire a female to do the job.

    Btw they don't automatically body search Muslims either. They target single blokes of any persuasion.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #19 - January 04, 2009, 04:42 AM

    I have sympathy for this family but whenever I hear stories like this it always has the implication that there is some kind of racist persecution going on. It is always told as if it was proof of the inerrant racism of Westerners and as if the Muslims involved had somehow undergone some kind of persecution akin to the persecution of the Jews under Hitler.

    It is possible that some of the passengers where racist but in most of these cases it usually just boils down to the very understandable fear of hijackers.

    If Scottish Catholics carried out 9.11 you would be seeing Scots people detained and inconvenienced in this way. That wouldn't mean that there was any racist persecution going on.

    Yes the Yanks have got extraordinary rendition but on the whole Western nations don't have racist policies and a desire to persecute innocent families which is what you would think was going on if you listened to any of the human rights people bang on about cases like these.
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #20 - January 04, 2009, 04:57 AM

    I've returned from the US a couple of days back . Despite the fact I was with my family I got a little 10 minute mini-interrogation on the way in . Nothing too taxing, but just a little embaressing when you are asked to go to a separate room , especially as there were many other people in the queue behind my family, probably thinking I was "suspect".

    I have been to the US 3 years ago with no probs whatsoever- but I imagine since 2005 if like me, you are British of South Asian origin , and have stamps in your passport from Pakistan and Saudi , that gets alarm bells ringing. Cry

    However my experience is nothing compared to what some friends have gone through in 2001/2002 with people being made to stand for nearly an hour in one spot (!) , then given the third degree , with the same questions repeated over and over again to try and make them trip up.


     

    We are in favor of tolerance, but it is a very difficult thing to tolerate the intolerant and impossible to tolerate the intolerable.

    -George Dennison Prentice
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #21 - January 04, 2009, 09:57 AM

    Yeah well if some white idiots crashed a plane into the Kaaba I imagine the Saudis would be giving Caucasian travellers special treatment for a year or two.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #22 - January 04, 2009, 12:22 PM

    Yeah well if some white idiots crashed a plane into the Kaaba I imagine the Saudis would be giving Caucasian travellers special treatment for a year or two.

    Yes, and then we would call them racist for doing it!

    oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!"
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #23 - January 04, 2009, 12:26 PM

    Yeah well if some white idiots crashed a plane into the Kaaba I imagine the Saudis would be giving Caucasian travellers special treatment for a year or two.

    Yes, and then we would call them racist for doing it!


    Nope, we?d call them reasonable.  Roll Eyes

    and stop shouting.
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #24 - January 04, 2009, 12:29 PM

    Its been 8 years, not just a couple.

    Life is a sexually transmitted disease which is invariably fatal.
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #25 - January 04, 2009, 12:31 PM

    Its been 8 years, not just a couple.


    and there have been plenty of more attacks, not just 9/11 (though this instance was stupid, I didn?t see anything suspicious in those remarks).
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #26 - January 04, 2009, 12:36 PM

    Its been 8 years, not just a couple.


    And looks like the policy will continue for many years to come.


    oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!"
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #27 - January 04, 2009, 12:37 PM

    Its been 8 years, not just a couple.


    And looks like the policy will continue for many years to come.




    As will the threats posed by the terrorist lunatics so one would hope so  Afro
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #28 - January 04, 2009, 12:47 PM

    The attackers are from a very select group of people. When the IRA was bombing the place the police didn't target every Irishman. They used intelligence based selective targeting because they have the sense to know when you use this blanket prejudice on people it pisses them off and more people end up supporting their cause because they are being victimised by what seems like a fascist system. 

    oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!"
  • Re: Muslim family thrown off US jet for 'remarks'
     Reply #29 - January 04, 2009, 12:51 PM

    The attackers are from a very select group of people. When the IRA was bombing the place the police didn't target every Irishman. They used intelligence based selective targeting because they have the sense to know when you use this blanket prejudice on people it pisses them off and more people end up supporting their cause because they are being victimised by what seems like a fascist system. 


    Just like the TSA doesn't target every single Muslim. I traveled with Muslims as part of the Model Arab League in and out of Washington DC. Not one was subjected to a fascist system, or were even given one second extra scrutiny for that matter  idiot2
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