Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


New Britain
Today at 11:13 AM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
Today at 08:00 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
Yesterday at 10:07 PM

Muslim grooming gangs sti...
Yesterday at 08:20 PM

German nationalist party ...
Yesterday at 01:15 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
Yesterday at 01:08 PM

Russia invades Ukraine
Yesterday at 11:01 AM

Islam and Science Fiction
February 11, 2025, 11:57 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
February 08, 2025, 01:38 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
February 06, 2025, 03:13 PM

Gaza assault
February 05, 2025, 10:04 AM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
February 03, 2025, 09:25 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Humanism, the way forward?

 (Read 13657 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Humanism, the way forward?
     OP - January 06, 2009, 11:19 AM

    I am looking into Humanism, at the moment as it appears to be similar to what I believe. Don?t normally believe in putting people into boxes, but it appears to be different.  It helps provides the lifeskills required to lead to a rewarding existence, based on your own interpretations. 

    Particularly like the fact that it accepts its mantra is evolving, so its doctrine are continually shaped by society.

    Here's a little snippet about humanism below:-

    ________________________________________________________________________________________


    Humanists embrace the moral principle known as the Golden Rule. This means we believe that people should aim to treat each other as they would like to be treated themselves, with tolerance, consideration and compassion.

    Humanism is an approach to life based on reason and our common humanity, recognising that moral values are properly founded on human nature and experience alone.
    Robert Ashby


    Humanists believe that human experience and rational thinking provide the only source of both knowledge and a moral code to live by.

    They reject the idea of knowledge 'revealed' to human beings by gods, or in special books.

    Humanism is a democratic and ethical life stance, which affirms that human beings have the right and responsibility to give meaning and shape to their own lives.

    It stands for the building of a more humane society through an ethic based on human and other natural values in the spirit of reason and free inquiry through human capabilities.

    While atheism is merely the absence of belief, humanism is a positive attitude to the world, centred on human experience, thought, and hopes.

    It is not theistic, and it does not accept supernatural views of reality.

    The British Humanist Association and The International Humanist and Ethical Union use similar emblems showing a stylised human figure reaching out to achieve its full potential.

    International Humanist and Ethical Union

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #1 - January 06, 2009, 11:39 AM

    Islam embraces all these ethical considerations anyway, although it has the added benefit of Allah (swt) to guide you through it.

    I don't understand why you would leave Islam to embrace all the same principles you left behind, but I respect that its your prerogative.  Smiley
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #2 - January 06, 2009, 11:48 AM

    Islam embraces all these ethical considerations anyway, although it has the added benefit of Allah (swt) to guide you through it.

    I don't understand why you would leave Islam to embrace all the same principles you left behind, but I respect that its your prerogative.  Smiley


    Hi Goldie,

    Nice to see you back here.

    Anyway with regards to Islam embracing all these ethical considerations I'm pretty sure that Hassan in one of his videos said that he couldn't find the Golden Rule in Islam as it understood by many other religions and practices. I've also read something similar on other websites that the Golden Rule does exist in Islam.

    Perhaps Hassan could clear this up for us.
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #3 - January 06, 2009, 11:55 AM

    You may view Hassan as the final word on Islam, but with all due respect, I don't.  Speaking as a muslim, I find it unbelievable that anybody would think that Islam does not include values of compassion, tolerance and fairness.  It may be expressed through different words than other religions, but that does not mean it isn't in there.
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #4 - January 06, 2009, 12:01 PM

    Well now's your chance to prove us wrong.

    Maybe it is there buried in the small print.

    Who knows?
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #5 - January 06, 2009, 12:25 PM

    Goldie - It sounds to me that you have found solace in Islam, and am glad that you feel it makes you into a better human being. 

    I agree Islam contains many of these ethical principles, but also some unethical ones.  This proves to me that it was not put together by a supreme and infallible supernatural being,

    There are many reasons why I dont believe Islam,  not just one or two, and hence too lengthy to go into here.  Will pm you directly.


    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #6 - January 06, 2009, 01:03 PM

    Islam embraces all these ethical considerations anyway, although it has the added benefit of Allah (swt) to guide you through it.


    Humanism which I have been studying and trying to follow of late is quite different to Islam's stance on life and humanity.

    Let us look at some of the principles Islame posted:

    Humanists embrace the moral principle known as the Golden Rule. This means we believe that people should aim to treat each other as they would like to be treated themselves, with tolerance, consideration and compassion.

    Many years ago in my Islamic coocoon I would have thought yes this is Islam. However this is not so. Good treatment of others is specific to within the Islamic ummah. Those that do not accept Islam are referred to in the Qur'an as dogs (Q7:176), vilest of animals (Q8:55), deaf, dumb and blind (Q2:18) and evil (Q7:177).

    There can be no golden rule when God tells you that those not with us are the vilest of creatures. What compassion can you have for those Allh refers to as evil? What tolerance can you have for people who Allah says you must go out and kill once the fasting month is over?


    Humanism is an approach to life based on reason and our common humanity, recognising that moral values are properly founded on human nature and experience alone.  Robert Ashby


    What common humanity can we have when Muhammad divided the people of the world into two camps. Dar-ul-Islam and dar-ul-harb?

    Islam does contain many moral values, but they are stagnant in 7th century desert Arabia. Many are no longer applicable to today's modern societies. They are very misogynistic and when looked at rationally are not based on human nature.


    Humanists believe that human experience and rational thinking provide the only source of both knowledge and a moral code to live by.

    Our knowledge and morals come from a collective experience of humanity. Not from the teachings of one man who claimed to have a contact with a higher being.


    They reject the idea of knowledge 'revealed' to human beings by gods, or in special books.

    A revealed book is the basis of Islam.

    Humanism is a democratic and ethical life stance, which affirms that human beings have the right and responsibility to give meaning and shape to their own lives.

    In Islam we do not have the right to shape our own lives. We must follow the dictates of the scriptures. In many Islamic societies women cannot work and have little control over their destiny. Non-Muslims do not have the same rights as Muslims. And if not for international pressure Islam would still subdue humans under slavery.

    It stands for the building of a more humane society through an ethic based on human and other natural values in the spirit of reason and free inquiry through human capabilities.

    A society that recommends amputaions, stoning to death, subjugation of non believers or the slaughter of animals by slitting the throat so they stay alive for the blood to drain cannot never be considered a humane society. Free inquiry and respect of various ideologies is condemned for they can lead to apostasy punishable by death.

    It is not theistic, and it does not accept supernatural views of reality.

    Islam is theistic and does accept supernatural views of reality.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #7 - January 06, 2009, 01:14 PM

    Nicely argued, Ghazali

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #8 - January 06, 2009, 01:32 PM

    I agree, very well argued Ghazali!

    I am also trying to follow the humanist approach and I'm a life member of the ritish Humanist Association (BHA) - I would recommend it you.

    Z
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #9 - January 06, 2009, 02:02 PM

    I agree, very well argued Ghazali!

    I am also trying to follow the humanist approach and I'm a life member of the ritish Humanist Association (BHA) - I would recommend it you.

    Z


    Thanks. I'll check out their website.

    I have listened to an internet Humanist radio station at humanist studies (www.humaniststudies.org) and they have been very interesting. There is one where they interview Salman Rushdie who is now apparently a humanist. You can get the podcasts at:

    http://www.humaniststudies.org/podcast/

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #10 - January 06, 2009, 02:37 PM

    do you have the link for the the Salman Rushdie podcast?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #11 - January 06, 2009, 03:52 PM

    do you have the link for the the Salman Rushdie podcast?


    Just follow the podcast link above and the Salman interview is Number 18. Down to the bottom. Wait a bit for the page to load fully it takes a little while.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #12 - January 06, 2009, 05:12 PM

    Islam embraces all these ethical considerations anyway, although it has the added benefit of Allah (swt) to guide you through it.

    I don't understand why you would leave Islam to embrace all the same principles you left behind, but I respect that its your prerogative.  Smiley

    Goldie, I believe you are thinking of "Pax Islamia (tm)". A global islamic peace. That state that most muslims dream of, when the entire world becomes muslim. Then the sword verses will no longer be needed, the wife beating verses will somehow no longer be needed. Everybody will be happy and content as they follow some set of perfect laws.

    Of course in pax islamia there will be no sunni and shiia and ismaili, the khaliphs who were always persecuting some muslim or another, will somehow stop doing it. The very first Khaliphs & companions who built islam and who murdered each other for money and power, will somehow become the world Saints.

    But for now islam is still just trying to build this perfect society, right Goldie?

    So I guess if I am an infidel who heard the call to islam and refused it, and I am, then i would want to pay a jizya and have my fingers cut off and be lied to and my women and belongings become fair game, and even if I am under the loving protection of a muslim wali, and I am murdered, then the religion of my murderer will matter in deciding the punishment.

    I will also like how in the koran it mentions 17 times torture with boiling water, then burning, then getting new skin, etc.

    But that is okay Goldie, you do not mind the mistreatment, because you actually and honestly believe that those who do not follow islam are worth less. You think to yourself: "Well if I am worth less, then clearly I would want to be kissing the boots".

    You would think that the strife is just temporary before we all become muslims and in pax islamia, we will all live well and be happy. You do not think it will become like the Sunni & Shia and Ismaili are today. You do not think it will be like every single Caliphate who was persecuting some muslims or another. Like the very First Khaliphs and companions who murdered each other for money and power.

    Why does a religion that beatifies the thugs, that sanctifies the boot, somehow suddenly achieve peace when everyone is following it? What will happen to women in that society? What will happen to homosexuals? Who will get the better jobs? Who will get the better women? Who will judge? Who will execute the judgement? Of course Pax Islamia might happens, but beside all bloodshed and misery such a peace will cause, would you want to live in that Pax?


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #13 - January 06, 2009, 06:40 PM

    Pax Islamica isn't it?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #14 - January 06, 2009, 07:04 PM

    Islam embraces all these ethical considerations anyway, although it has the added benefit of Allah (swt) to guide you through it.

    I don't understand why you would leave Islam to embrace all the same principles you left behind, but I respect that its your prerogative.  Smiley


    Hi Goldie,

    Nice to see you back here.

    Anyway with regards to Islam embracing all these ethical considerations I'm pretty sure that Hassan in one of his videos said that he couldn't find the Golden Rule in Islam as it understood by many other religions and practices. I've also read something similar on other websites that the Golden Rule does exist in Islam.

    Perhaps Hassan could clear this up for us.



    I remember when I was still a Muslim trying to argue that Islam did support the Golden Rule and I used to quote the hadith:

    "None of you truly believe until he loves for his brother that which he loves for himself"

    But I was often told that this hadith refers to one's "Muslim" brother as the Kafir is not our brother.

    That is certainly the view of the more narrow and dogmatic salafis and others who take a more rigid traditional view.

    To be fair, there are many moderate Muslims who will tell you that this hadith refers to all humanity. But I remember searching for some authoritative comment by a sheikh to support that view and couldn't find any at the time.

    There is another hadith though that says "You will be treated as you treat others" which makes no mention of "brothers" and kinda gives the Golden Rule meaning.

    I feel now, that I wouldn't want to insist that there is no Golden Rule in Islam. It is not for me to define what Muslims believe or do not believe.

    Perhaps Goldie can clarify more whether he believes Islam agrees with the Golden Rule and what quotes would support it.
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #15 - January 07, 2009, 12:33 PM

    There is another hadith though that says "You will be treated as you treat others" which makes no mention of "brothers" and kinda gives the Golden Rule meaning.

    That's not really the golden rule though as it states 'you will be treated...' which makes no sense in reality :S Unless you quoted that out of context.

    Anyway even if Islam stated the Golden rule it's scripture would certainly contradict it.

    A problem I have the Golden rule is that what would happen if you do not mind being beaten? Does that make it ok for you to beat others?
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #16 - January 07, 2009, 12:48 PM

    A problem I have the Golden rule is that what would happen if you do not mind being beaten? Does that make it ok for you to beat others?


    Good question Peru. I once inquired about that and found out that the Golden Rule which apparently originated in Eastern religions is stated differently which supposedly overcomes that issue.

    Do not do unto others that which you do not want done to you.

    In others words if you do not like something don't do it to someone else.

    It overcomes the problem of the masochist who likes pain from saying I like pain so I can do it to someone else.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #17 - January 07, 2009, 12:49 PM

    A problem I have the Golden rule is that what would happen if you do not mind being beaten? Does that make it ok for you to beat others?


    Good question Peru. I once inquired about that and found out that the Golden Rule which apparently originated in Eastern religions is stated differently which supposedly overcomes that issue.

    Do not do unto others that which you do not want done to you.

    In others words if you do not like something don't do it to someone else.

    It overcomes the problem of the masochist who likes pain from saying I like pain so I can do it to someone else.


    that is the exact wording of the German formula. And - since the masochist DOES like to feel pain - does of course NOT solve the dilemma.
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #18 - January 07, 2009, 12:51 PM

    A problem I have the Golden rule is that what would happen if you do not mind being beaten? Does that make it ok for you to beat others?


    Good question Peru. I once inquired about that and found out that the Golden Rule which apparently originated in Eastern religions is stated differently which supposedly overcomes that issue.

    Do not do unto others that which you do not want done to you.

    In others words if you do not like something don't do it to someone else.

    It overcomes the problem of the masochist who likes pain from saying I like pain so I can do it to someone else.


    I don't see how this overcomes the problem, it says do not do what you don't want to be done to you. A masochist does want to feel pain so this cannot apply to them.
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #19 - January 07, 2009, 01:10 PM

    I don't see how this overcomes the problem, it says do not do what you don't want to be done to you. A masochist does want to feel pain so this cannot apply to them.


    Well it does not say you can DO what you like either. So because you like to be beaten the saying does not say you can do that to someone else.

    If I do not like to be beaten I should not do it to you.

    If I like to be beaten, the rule does not explicity say I can do it to you. It does not say what you can do. It says what you cannot do.


    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #20 - January 07, 2009, 01:16 PM

    I don't see how this overcomes the problem, it says do not do what you don't want to be done to you. A masochist does want to feel pain so this cannot apply to them.


    Well it does not say you can DO what you like either. So because you like to be beaten the saying does not say you can do that to someone else.

    If I do not like to be beaten I should not do it to you.

    If I like to be beaten, the rule does not explicity say I can do it to you. It does not say what you can do. It says what you cannot do.



    yep, but that means the golden rule doesn?t prohibit beating... to a masochist, anyway.
    Unless you are German, you can do anything that is not forbidden, so...  cool2
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #21 - January 07, 2009, 01:21 PM

    I don't see how this overcomes the problem, it says do not do what you don't want to be done to you. A masochist does want to feel pain so this cannot apply to them.


    Well it does not say you can DO what you like either. So because you like to be beaten the saying does not say you can do that to someone else.

    If I do not like to be beaten I should not do it to you.

    If I like to be beaten, the rule does not explicity say I can do it to you. It does not say what you can do. It says what you cannot do.

    As dio stated, it does not forbid it either.

    However as laws go the golden rule is quite a good one Smiley Humanism has tried to bypass the problems with the golden rule by stating with tolerance, consideration and compassion after the rule. I can with that, though I'm sure there are holes in it still but no law is perfect.
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #22 - January 07, 2009, 01:46 PM

    it does not forbid it either.


    No this rule does not forbid it, but it does not tell you to do it. You have specific laws that will deal with forbidding that which is not humane, compassionate, etc.

    With the Christian golden rule it can contradict the law as it specifically says to do to others what you want them to do to you. Even thoigh that action may be unlawful.

    The rule says to do it but the law says you can't.

    With the Eastern version it just says not to do something. What you can do is determined by the secular or state laws.

    Quote
    However as laws go the golden rule is quite a good one Smiley Humanism has tried to bypass the problems with the golden rule by stating with tolerance, consideration and compassion after the rule. I can with that, though I'm sure there are holes in it still but no law is perfect.


    That is why we have to allow humanity to develop and evolve.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #23 - January 07, 2009, 01:49 PM

    Quote
    With the Christian golden rule it can contradict the law as it specifically says to do to others what you want them to do to you. Even thoigh that action may be unlawful.

    The rule says to do it but the law says you can't.

    With the Eastern version it just says not to do something. What you can do is determined by the secular or state laws.


    totally illogical hogwash!
    The golden rule exists in a positive and a negative form (do/do not) in many cultures (I already referred you to the German version of "was Du nicht willst, das man Dir tu, das f?g`auch keinem anderen zu").
    Also, in ALL versions, it?s simply an ETHICAL principle, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the law. (cf. btw Kant`s categorical imperative, which is related to the Golden rule). Npt to mention the simple fact, that the law indeed DOES forbid/punish INACTION in certain circumstances as well.
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #24 - January 07, 2009, 05:00 PM

    Quote from: a.ghazali
    With the Christian golden rule it can contradict the law as it specifically says to do to others what you want them to do to you. Even thoigh that action may be unlawful.


    As Dio says, it's an ethical principle.  Its implications change depending on the assumptions surrounding it.  The Christian golden rule is in the context of a particular assumed good - being in a right relationship with God.  In that context it means 'act for the good of others as you want them to act for your good'.  And is really not different to 'love your neighbour as you love yourself' - or even 'love your enemy' (which is the immediate context in Luke).

    Outside of this context, its implications differ according to the particular 'good' that is assumed to exist.

    For example, if a person believed that the greatest good was their own happiness then the golden rule would mean 'act for the happiness of others as you act for your own happiness'.  Of course, this would lead to a contradiction if there were situations where giving happiness to others would decrease your own.  As a result, it could only be accepted with caveats - 'do to others what you want them to do to you as long as the end result makes you happier'.

    In the case of the humanist, the goals expressed seem to be too vague to know what it would mean.
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #25 - January 07, 2009, 05:08 PM

    Diotima, this website has a good explanation of the rule-

    http://www.thinkhumanism.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=59&Itemid=69

    The Golden Rule         

    Humanists try to embrace the moral principle known as the ?Golden Rule?, otherwise known as the ethic of reciprocity, which means we believe that people should aim to treat each other as they would like to be treated themselves ? with tolerance, consideration and compassion.

    Humanists like the Golden Rule because of its universality, because it is derived from human feelings and experience and because it requires people to think about others and try to imagine how they might think and feel. It is a simple and clear default position for moral decision-making.

    Sometimes people argue that the Golden Rule is imperfect because it makes the assumption that everyone has the same tastes and opinions and wants to be treated the same in every situation. But the Golden Rule is a general moral principle, not a hard and fast rule to be applied to every detail of life. Treating other people as we would wish to be treated ourselves does not mean making the assumption that others feel exactly as we do about everything. The treatment we all want is recognition that we are individuals, each with our own opinions and feelings and for these opinions and feelings to be afforded respect and consideration. The Golden Rule is not an injunction to impose one?s will on someone else!

    Trying to live according to the Golden Rule means trying to empathise with other people, including those who may be very different from us. Empathy is at the root of kindness, compassion, understanding and respect ? qualities that we all appreciate being shown, whoever we are, whatever we think and wherever we come from. And although it isn?t possible to know what it really feels like to be a different person or live in different circumstances and have different life experiences, it isn?t difficult for most of us to imagine what would cause us suffering and to try to avoid causing suffering to others. For this reason many people find the Golden Rule?s corollary ? ?do not treat people in a way you would not wish to be treated yourself? ? more pragmatic.
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #26 - January 07, 2009, 05:31 PM

    Sparky - I understand what you are trying to say, but think you are looking at it from a traditional religious context.  As society has evolved into an ever more complex and dynamic place, some ideologies have also evolved to reflect that. 

    Contrary to most religions, it accepts that its tenets are not set in stone.  Its vagarities allow it to remain flexible, and to a certain extent encompass people from all walks of life - not just male, non-black, heterosexual monotheists.

    I dont know that much about it yet, but it does have a concept of good.  Instead of God, it sees society & self actualization (be interesting to know which one is above the other) at its core.  Yes, there are times when they could be in conflict with each other, you could argue that with the Christian Golden rule.  However at least this school of thought, gives you more room to make that choice.

    P.S the Humanist golden rule started with the word "aim"

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #27 - January 07, 2009, 05:39 PM

    There is another hadith though that says "You will be treated as you treat others" which makes no mention of "brothers" and kinda gives the Golden Rule meaning.

    That's not really the golden rule though as it states 'you will be treated...' which makes no sense in reality :S Unless you quoted that out of context.


    You are quite right, it's ambiguous.

    As usual with Islam the "clear truth" always seems to be rather unclear and open to never ending dispute lol

  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #28 - January 07, 2009, 06:01 PM

    Quote
    Diotima, this website has a good explanation of the rule-


    thanks, PS. I did several semesters of philosophy at university, and am a lawyer by profession. I had heard about the golden rule (in various formulations) before. Wink
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #29 - January 07, 2009, 06:08 PM

    Isn't it sad, when you have to state you level of education to prove to others how clever you think you are?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »