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Theme Changer

 Topic: Humanism, the way forward?

 (Read 13621 times)
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  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #60 - January 08, 2009, 02:46 PM

    Also, even if one follows the idea that Hell is not a place but rather a state of being cut off from god, it is still a punishment and a threat.

    It's also a form of blackmail. One of the reasons why I could never go back to religion/God.


    Absolutely, even those moments where I have found myself feeling lost and alone, I can't go back to religion, for that among many other reasons.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #61 - January 08, 2009, 02:55 PM

    Also, even if one follows the idea that Hell is not a place but rather a state of being cut off from god, it is still a punishment and a threat.

    It's also a form of blackmail. One of the reasons why I could never go back to religion/God.

    Is pointing out the consequences of overeating a threat? Of shooting heroin?
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #62 - January 08, 2009, 03:06 PM

    No, the effects of overeating & drug use would be considered as a scientific fact.  Gods chooses the consequences of not following religion, and is thus a threat. 

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #63 - January 08, 2009, 03:11 PM

    Also, even if one follows the idea that Hell is not a place but rather a state of being cut off from god, it is still a punishment and a threat.

    It's also a form of blackmail. One of the reasons why I could never go back to religion/God.

    Is pointing out the consequences of overeating a threat? Of shooting heroin?

    What kind of logic is that? God made us and dictated everything to us without us having a say. It is no less than a hideous dictatorship! By your logic you could justify the actions of people like Hitler.
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #64 - January 08, 2009, 03:14 PM

    No, the effects of overeating & drug use would be considered as a scientific fact.  Gods chooses the consequences of not following religion, and is thus a threat. 


    If you DO believe in God, the effects of overeating or shooting heroin could also be blamed on him. HE made us that way, after all. Roll Eyes

    basically "not following religion" translates to "not following the way to God". That this will not lead you to him (i.e. into heaven, which is a state of union with Him) ... surprising?
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #65 - January 08, 2009, 03:27 PM

    Also, even if one follows the idea that Hell is not a place but rather a state of being cut off from god, it is still a punishment and a threat.

    It's also a form of blackmail. One of the reasons why I could never go back to religion/God.

    Is pointing out the consequences of overeating a threat? Of shooting heroin?

    What kind of logic is that? God made us and dictated everything to us without us having a say. It is no less than a hideous dictatorship! By your logic you could justify the actions of people like Hitler.

    Really?  Did Hitler make people?
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #66 - January 08, 2009, 03:30 PM

    You didn?t understand the "naturalist fallacy", did you, PS? There is no logical road that leads from an "is" to a "should be", i.e. factual statements vs. normative statements. The fact that people are "emotionally damaged" by certain acts is in no way a reason not to commit those acts, UNLESS you accept the MORAL principle, that people SHOULD NOT be damaged. Why not, would be a sociopaths (or Nietzsche?s ) answer.

    Even more hogwash!
    I totally disagree that one has to bring up a supernatural 'MORAL principle' for one to think that one SHOULD NOT do something!
    Evolutionary instincts make most humans want to perserve the human race, they have a sense of empathy, it is perfectly logical for a human to see suffering etc and would not want that to be inflicted on others.
    Its total bollocks that this Moral code is given to us by some superbeing in some old dubious texts!
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #67 - January 08, 2009, 03:44 PM

    No, the effects of overeating & drug use would be considered as a scientific fact.  Gods chooses the consequences of not following religion, and is thus a threat. 


    If you DO believe in God, the effects of overeating or shooting heroin could also be blamed on him. HE made us that way, after all. Roll Eyes



    If you believe God has a choice on the effects that drugs or overeating have on you, then this would probably be considered as a threat (if he forewarned you) or malicious (if he did not).  Choose whichever one you want, depending on whichever definition of the Bible you have chosen.

    Regarding the second part i.e. ["basically "not following religion" translates to "not following the way to God". That this will not lead you to him (i.e. into heaven, which is a state of union with Him) ... surprising?]

    It is surprising to learn that in this union with him he will give me everything that he has pre-programmed me to want, and when I am not, he will give me everything that I dont, including punishments?  Or is that just a coincidence. 

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #68 - January 08, 2009, 03:46 PM

    It's also a form of blackmail. One of the reasons why I could never go back to religion/God.


    They're more than just blackmail they are outright threats to force fear and belief in their doctrine.

    The concept of heaven and hell were the first principles of religion that I rejected. No God could misunderstand justice so much as to condemn someone to eternal punishment. And for what? Not believing in him for the few years we are put here without any sound evidence of his existence.

    The religious always seems to want to claim the moral high ground. Yet study the scriptures with an open mind and you see such shortsightedness in morality, it's unbelievable.

    Morals and ethics are flexible based on society. They evolve as humans evolve for the good of the society.

    Back in Old Testament days the punishment for raping a girl (virgin) was to give her father 50 shekels and take the girl. A few hundred years later Muhammad made the punishment 100 lashes and banishment for a year (if unmarried) but allowed rape of captives. The commandments of this god does not even include thou shalt not rape.

    Of course if the rape victim was married the rapist (in both Islam and the bible) was to be stoned to death. Ever asked yourself why? Because the woman was owned by another man. Raping a married woman was basically offending the husband, the owner of the woman.

    Today Ethics advises us differently. Thank god (pardon the pun)

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #69 - January 08, 2009, 03:53 PM

    Goldie - It sounds to me that you have found solace in Islam, and am glad that you feel it makes you into a better human being. 


    I have found truth in Islam, and from that I find both solace and the incentive to be the best human being I can be.

    The best human in islam is someone who does not commit shirk, not someone who does good to other humans. And there is less then 1% of the koran dedicated to tell us to do well to other humans.

    Quote
    I agree Islam contains many of these ethical principles, but also some unethical ones.  This proves to me that it was not put together by a supreme and infallible supernatural being.


    Islam contains the ethical principles, but people often subvert them into unethical shapes and practises. 

    Judge a tree by its fruits Goldie. The old excuse of islam being misinterpreted. Somehow some people have 'the book', yet as soon as they start implementing things from 'the book', the culture degenerates.

    You cannot say that Allah (swt) is wrong, or that he does not exist, just  because his perfect guidance is not followed properly. 

    Who said allah is wrong. We say the koran is wrong. The koran is a bad book. It is bad on the surface when we read it. Yet people still like to dig under the sentences and jump for joy if they find something that could be construed as good. This is not how things should work. The book has to be good on the surface as well as good in the hidden meanings.

    You cannot say
    The failings of human beings in implementing the message of Islam, is not proof of the untruth of Islam at all, it is proof of the fallibility of human nature.

    Muslim cultures failures, again and again, century after century, is actually a strong proof to koran being a book that spreads misery & strife wherever it settles. i.e. Plz keep the perfect book to yourself, i do not want 'the book' anywhere near my family, just in case you misinterpret it, again.

    But why you think I judge islam based on the action of muslims? I judge islam based on islam. based on islamic text. and based on the founders of islam. Most importantly, I judge islam based on the messages it spreads. Messages of hate and fear.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #70 - January 08, 2009, 04:28 PM

    You didn?t understand the "naturalist fallacy", did you, PS? There is no logical road that leads from an "is" to a "should be", i.e. factual statements vs. normative statements. The fact that people are "emotionally damaged" by certain acts is in no way a reason not to commit those acts, UNLESS you accept the MORAL principle, that people SHOULD NOT be damaged. Why not, would be a sociopaths (or Nietzsche?s ) answer.

    Even more hogwash!
    I totally disagree that one has to bring up a supernatural 'MORAL principle' for one to think that one SHOULD NOT do something!
    Evolutionary instincts make most humans want to perserve the human race, they have a sense of empathy, it is perfectly logical for a human to see suffering etc and would not want that to be inflicted on others.
    Its total bollocks that this Moral code is given to us by some superbeing in some old dubious texts!

    And again...  Evolutionary instincts, if they are evolutionary, should make me want to preserve my genes shouldn't they?  And if they act this way, there is nothing I can do about it anyway - hence it wouldn't create any kind of moral imperative to do anything at all.  I really recommend that you read up about the naturalistic fallacy.  There is a wikipedia page all about it.

    And as Dio has already pointed out, empathy is just another emotion.  If you want to choose to act on it, fine, but don't pretend that there is some kind of universal rule to do so.

    Here is a definition of empathy:
    Main Entry:
        em?pa?thy Listen to the pronunciation of empathy
    Pronunciation:
        \ˈem-pə-thē\
    Function:
        noun
    Etymology:
        Greek empatheia, literally, passion, from empathēs emotional, from em- + pathos feelings, emotion ? more at pathos
    Date:
        1850

    1: the imaginative projection of a subjective state into an object so that the object appears to be infused with it
    2: the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner ; also : the capacity for this

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/empathy

    So when you imagine yourself as a rapist, this is as much empathy as imagining yourself as a rape victim.

    And again, statements about where morality doesn't come from, don't mean that it exists.  If you believe that it exists - a superbeing seems about as good an explanation as any other at this stage!
  • Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #71 - August 10, 2013, 02:00 AM

    I would have to agree humanism of some kind or another will have to be a replacement. And WHEN THE FUCK IS SAIF RAHMAN COMING BACK?! I read his book years before I even found this site. Back then it wasn't even an actual book and you didn't get charged, just a wonderful blog. Come back Saif Rahman!

    Yours,
    A Fan
    X

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #72 - August 10, 2013, 02:06 AM

    Fear not! Somewhere out there he is continuing to be an arrogant sexist capitalist.

    fuck you
  • Humanism, the way forward?
     Reply #73 - August 10, 2013, 02:12 AM

    Arrogant sexist capitalist?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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