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Theme Changer

 Topic: Readings from the "Holy Book"

 (Read 75912 times)
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  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #150 - January 13, 2009, 02:48 PM

    I still say he wasn't and that you are merely blustering in an attempt to distract attention from your uncomfortable position. Keep digging. You'll hit China this week at the current rate.

    And yet you cannot give a reason.  I have shown you that the vast majority of the verses were off topic (verses which you don't even appear to have noticed before you called me a troll).  I have shown you that there was no attempt to discuss the verses.  I have shown you that they added nothing to the discussion.  I have shown you that this behaviour fits with the definition of trolling.

    I have also responded to virtually every sensible question that has been asked of me so your accusation of blustering is about as empty as your calling me a troll.

    As a mod, you're a disgrace.

    And, I have to confess, I'm surprised.


    You are surprised the the OP of a thread titled "readings from the holy book" posted actual "readings from the holy book"? 

    Now you're being disingenuous.  'readings from the holy book' refers to the readings Hassan is doing in the video in the OP.  Do you think I could post the gospel of John verse by verse in the thread and it wouldn't be trolling?

    The topic and Hassan's video was very clearly about what he said it was about - whether the OT passages he quoted were consistent with a God of love. Hence the references to 'blood-thirsty', psycho etc...
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #151 - January 13, 2009, 02:51 PM

    Why is it ok for the Israelites to kill people that God had commanded them to kill?  Because God commanded them to do it!

    NB:  This quote is not from Al-Qaeda, it is actually from Sparky

    9/11 was due to certain religious fundamentalists doing what they felt God had ordained them to do.  We can't question this act though, as according to Sparky, their God had commanded them to do it.  

    Unless, of course, it comes from any source other than the Bible.

    Who said you couldn't question it?  I didn't.  I'm more than happy for you to question whether God commanded either the Israelites to do it or Al Qaeda.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #152 - January 13, 2009, 02:57 PM

    Why is it ok for the Israelites to kill people that God had commanded them to kill?  Because God commanded them to do it!

    Lovely. And of course you can prove this?

    Mind you the problem isn't as great as it may seem since the OT contains almost no historical content at all and is primarily mythology, which means nobody got killed anyway. It's still an extremely nasty story though. It brings to mind things like the Holocaust and the Rwanda massacres.

    Don't be dense.  In the context of this discussion, it's assumed that God commanded them to do it.  Otherwise it's a discussion about nothing at all.

    You seem to be missing the point again. You are the one who makes the assumption that a putative deity really did give the orders. Other people are not so certain of this and think that perhaps people just made it up. The barbarity of it is one of the things that makes them think this. I notice that once again you are resorting to insults. Keep digging, Sparky.

    No, it is assumed by Hassan in his video - 'it's the same God isn't it - the God of the Old Testament is the God of the New Testament'.  That's the whole context for the discussion.

    Try to keep up.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #153 - January 13, 2009, 03:08 PM

    Would you question God on something that he has commanded you to do? (answer without subterfuge please)

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  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #154 - January 13, 2009, 03:11 PM

    Would you question God on something that he has commanded you to do? (answer without subterfuge please)

    Sure.  The questions I would ask would be to determine whether it was really God asking me to do something.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #155 - January 13, 2009, 03:13 PM

    Basically you have shown nothing. You have simply claimed to have shown something.

    Hass posted a list which extended the points he made in the video and you called him a troll for it. That is why I said that he was not trolling and if anyone was it would be you.

    Shabby.  The list did not 'extend the points' but introduced a whole pile of new ones - without any analysis or discussion.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #156 - January 13, 2009, 03:21 PM

    Would you question God on something that he has commanded you to do? (answer without subterfuge please)

    Sure.  The questions I would ask would be to determine whether it was really God asking me to do something.


    Ok, so if you determined God was asking you to kill all the Midianites, would you do it? (answer again without subterfuge please)

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  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #157 - January 13, 2009, 03:27 PM

    Would you question God on something that he has commanded you to do? (answer without subterfuge please)

    Sure.  The questions I would ask would be to determine whether it was really God asking me to do something.


    Ok, so if you determined God was asking you to kill all the Midianites, would you do it? (answer again without subterfuge please)

    That's nonsense question.  The Midianites don't even exist as a people or nation today.

    In addition, because Jesus has commanded his followers to love their enemies, I would know that any such command wasn't actually from God.

    If you mean 'if you were an Israelite, would you do it?' - I'd have to say 'I don't know because I have no idea what it was like to 'be an Israelite'.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #158 - January 13, 2009, 03:28 PM

    It's fine to question whether the different things that are recorded about God are consistent with each other.


    So if they are consistent then everything is OK? The killing destroying does not bother you once he kills consistently. But you yourself says the laws change from the OT times to the NT times. SO he can't really be that consistent.

    Quote
    Vengeance just means punishment for a offense committed.  So the Midianites had offended God and he was commanding the Israelites to carry out his punishment against them.


    Vengeance means revenge. Not punishment. God says he is taking out vengeance in other words violent revenge. Its as if the people rubbed god the wrong way and he really had to get back at them.
    Anyway What was the offence that the Midianites committed to be hounded down and destoyed in such a manner?

    Quote
    I have no problem with the idea of God taking vengeance.  In fact, believing that the right to vengeance only belongs to God - is what means I don't have to take vengeance myself.


    But it wasn't god taking out the vengeance. It was humans. The Israelites. On the hearsay of a man named Moses who claimed god was speaking to him. He could have spoken to Moses just the same way he spoke to David Koresh or Jim Jones or any crackpot who might hear voices.

    Quote
    The form of his judgement seems to reflect his assessment of what was necessary to protect the Israelites from idolatrous influences


    So if a Hindu moved in next door to you with her idols of Krishna and Shiva would your God feel it necessary to protect you from her idolatrous influences? Would he speak to you and advise you to kill her and her children but request you spare her virgin daughter for you to keep as booty?

    Quote
    ..to punish what they had done to offend God.

    So what offends god so that we need to go to such extents to eradicate it? We really need to know. As I need to take precautions cos I don't want an army of Jehovah's soldiers entering my house killing us all all taking my daughter and other booty because I unintentionally offended him.


    Quote
    The 'share' in the booty just reflects provision for the priestly tribe of the levites.  I don't know what the problem is with that.


    Well it was taken as God's share. Why do the priests need virgin girls? Today the catholic church may prefer the boys. But why virgins? What are the priests going to do with them? Couldn't god have kept the women to be servants for the priests, why kill them and the boys?


    Quote
    The point isn't about being emotionally neutral.  If something is offensive, by all means be offended.  The point is the appeals to emotion are logical fallacies.  Whether you like something does not indicate whether it is true or not.


    Reminds me of Muhammad telling those not too keen on fighting Jihad that maybe they do not like a thing that is good for them.

    Quote
    God doesn't have to be attractive to you to be true.  But as I read this passage, I have no means to say that what God commanded was not for the best - in terms of what God aimed to achieve through the Israelites.


    God has to be attractive to everyone if his goal is to truly have all return it him/her. If god made me in a way that my mind detests his actions and morals then he has preplanned my destiny to hell.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #159 - January 13, 2009, 03:53 PM

    Would you question God on something that he has commanded you to do? (answer without subterfuge please)

    Sure.  The questions I would ask would be to determine whether it was really God asking me to do something.


    Ok, so if you determined God was asking you to kill all the Midianites, would you do it? (answer again without subterfuge please)

    because Jesus has commanded his followers to love their enemies, I would know that any such command wasn't actually from God.



    As per quotes supplied, in the Bible it has commanded followers to kill those enemies.  Are you therefore saying you dont believe in the Bible?

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  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #160 - January 13, 2009, 03:59 PM

    Quote from: a.ghazali
    So if they are consistent then everything is OK? The killing destroying does not bother you once he kills consistently. But you yourself says the laws change from the OT times to the NT times. SO he can't really be that consistent.

    You need to decide what your argument is.  If you want to say 'I don't like it', you'll need to discuss with someone else.  I have no access to what you will or won't like and nor do I expect this to tell me what is true about reality.

    If you want to talk about whether the Christian God exists, then finding an inconsistency in how he reveals himself might demonstrate that he doesn't exist.

    And a change in law doesn't mean that God isn't consistent.  He could be consistent and give different laws to different people to achieve different purposes for those people.

    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Vengeance means revenge. Not punishment.

    I was going by the dictionary:

    Main Entry:
        ven?geance Listen to the pronunciation of vengeance
    Pronunciation:
        \ˈven-jən(t)s\
    Function:
        noun
    Etymology:
        Middle English, from Anglo-French, from venger to avenge, from Latin vindicare to lay claim to, avenge ? more at vindicate
    Date:
        14th century

    : punishment inflicted in retaliation for an injury or offense : retribution
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vengeance]
    [url]http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vengeance
    [/url]

    Quote from: a.ghazali
    God says he is taking out vengeance in other words violent revenge. Its as if the people rubbed god the wrong way and he really had to get back at them.

    Not according to the dictionary.

    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Anyway What was the offence that the Midianites committed to be hounded down and destoyed in such a manner?

    I suspect it was partly the evil in their society and partly the effect they had on the Israelites when they introduced polytheism to them and many Israelites suffered from a plague as a result.

    Quote from: a.ghazali
    But it wasn't god taking out the vengeance. It was humans. The Israelites. On the hearsay of a man named Moses who claimed god was speaking to him. He could have spoken to Moses just the same way he spoke to David Koresh or Jim Jones or any crackpot who might hear voices.

    Which is a whole other argument.  Needless to say, as a Christian, I do think God did the commanding - taking the word of Jesus that the Old Testament record was a reliable guide to God's intervention in Jewish history.

    Quote from: a.ghazali
    So if a Hindu moved in next door to you with her idols of Krishna and Shiva would your God feel it necessary to protect you from her idolatrous influences? Would he speak to you and advise you to kill her and her children but request you spare her virgin daughter for you to keep as booty?

    And again, you veer off into irrelevancies.  This isn't about me.

    Quote from: a.ghazali
    So what offends god so that we need to go to such extents to eradicate it? We really need to know. As I need to take precautions cos I don't want an army of Jehovah's soldiers entering my house killing us all all taking my daughter and other booty because I unintentionally offended him.

    Yeah.  Do you have anything else to say about the passage?
    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Well it was taken as God's share. Why do the priests need virgin girls? Today the catholic church may prefer the boys. But why virgins? What are the priests going to do with them? Couldn't god have kept the women to be servants for the priests, why kill them and the boys?

    Jewish priests were not celibate.  They could, and did, marry.  I suspect some of the virgins were married to them.
    The women were those that had led the Israelites into polytheism and I suspect they felt the boys might grow up to fight against them but the text doesn't really say.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #161 - January 13, 2009, 04:00 PM

    Would you question God on something that he has commanded you to do? (answer without subterfuge please)

    Sure.  The questions I would ask would be to determine whether it was really God asking me to do something.


    Ok, so if you determined God was asking you to kill all the Midianites, would you do it? (answer again without subterfuge please)

    because Jesus has commanded his followers to love their enemies, I would know that any such command wasn't actually from God.



    As per quotes supplied, in the Bible it has commanded followers to kill those enemies.  Are you therefore saying you dont believe in the Bible?

    Which quote? Luke 19?  I asked you to go look it up and then come back with your interpretation in the context of the parable in which it is given.  Have you done that?
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #162 - January 13, 2009, 04:16 PM

    I was referring to these quotes, not that one:

    Deuteronomy 7:1-2    When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations . . . then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

    20:10-17    When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace.
    If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you.
    If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city.
    When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it.
    As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. . . .
    This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

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  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #163 - January 13, 2009, 04:24 PM

    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Vengeance means revenge. Not punishment.

    I was going by the dictionary:

    Main Entry:
        ven?geance Listen to the pronunciation of vengeance
    Pronunciation:
        \ˈven-jən(t)s\
    Function:
        noun
    Etymology:
        Middle English, from Anglo-French, from venger to avenge, from Latin vindicare to lay claim to, avenge ? more at vindicate
    Date:
        14th century

    : punishment inflicted in retaliation for an injury or offense : retribution



    It does not mean just punishment. It means punishment inflicted in retaliation . When something is done in retaliation its revenge.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #164 - January 13, 2009, 04:38 PM

    I was referring to these quotes, not that one:

    Deuteronomy 7:1-2    When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations . . . then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

    20:10-17    When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace.
    If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you.
    If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city.
    When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it.
    As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. . . .
    This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.


    Which, as I have said, were commands to the Israelites - not generic 'followers' to kill a particular group of people - not all their 'enemies'.  Hence they are not commands to me at all.

    You should wonder why you continually need to obfuscate if you really have a point to make.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #165 - January 13, 2009, 04:43 PM

    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Vengeance means revenge. Not punishment.

    I was going by the dictionary:

    Main Entry:
        ven?geance Listen to the pronunciation of vengeance
    Pronunciation:
        \ˈven-jən(t)s\
    Function:
        noun
    Etymology:
        Middle English, from Anglo-French, from venger to avenge, from Latin vindicare to lay claim to, avenge ? more at vindicate
    Date:
        14th century

    : punishment inflicted in retaliation for an injury or offense : retribution



    It does not mean just punishment. It means punishment inflicted in retaliation . When something is done in retaliation its revenge.


    Correct.  You said 'they rubbed him up the wrong way and he 'had' to get back at them.  There is nothing compulsive about it.  You also said 'not punishment' which is clearly wrong.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #166 - January 13, 2009, 04:59 PM

    I suspect it was partly the evil in their society and partly the effect they had on the Israelites when they introduced polytheism to them and many Israelites suffered from a plague as a result


    So when you dabble in polytheism God sends palgues? And you must kill those who indulges and spreads polytheism. What's up with God at present? Has he fallen asleep? Maybe he hasn't noticed that about a billion people on the planet are polytheists. But if you speak to him tonight don't mention it. I wouldn't want to feel guilty for letting the cat out the bag.


    Quote
    And again, you veer off into irrelevancies.  This isn't about me.


    Well it does concern you because you are attempting to justify this story. You said

    " judgement seems to reflect his assessment of what was necessary to protect the Israelites from idolatrous influences"

    If this is necessary judgement to protect his followers from the evils of idol worship then as one of his followers He should also feel the need to protect you from this most horrendous offence to him.

    Therefore he could conceivably ask you, as he did ask Moses to destroy the culprits (except the virgins) in vengeance. I mean if Jesus did appear before you and told you to do it, would you?


    Quote
    Jewish priests were not celibate.  They could, and did, marry.  I suspect some of the virgins were married to them.


    Lucky priests! They must have slept with a good conscience.

    Quote
    The women were those that had led the Israelites into polytheism and I suspect they felt the boys might grow up to fight against them but the text doesn't really say.


    So if your god feels that women who convinces someone to accept a polytheistic religion should be killed. I suppose you feel the same way also. I'm sure you won't carry it out in practice but you must feel yourself inclined to that position?

    I mean the story of God's vengeance on people who worship many idols is pointless if his followers do not take heed and assure such things do not occur in god's sight.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #167 - January 13, 2009, 05:10 PM

    Correct.  You said 'they rubbed him up the wrong way and he 'had' to get back at them.  There is nothing compulsive about it.  You also said 'not punishment' which is clearly wrong.


    Again trying to take the topic off the critical issues.

    You try to change vengeance to punishment. And I said It was not just punishment. That is not accurate. Vengeance means Punishment inflicted in retaliation. You need to add something to punishment ot make it vegenance.

    Vegeance is when you take violent revenge against someone. And is not simply punishment.


    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #168 - January 13, 2009, 05:14 PM

    Quote
    The question for me is 'does the command contradict God's revealed nature in some way?'.  Which is a different thing from saying 'is it acceptable?' which could mean anything from 'I think such a law would be acceptable if it was in force today' to 'it warms my heart to think that such a law existed!'.


    The question for me was, in what context does that command become acceptable?  I guess this is your answer - if it is consistent with God's revealed nature throughout the rest of the Bible it is acceptable.

    Mere consistency strikes me as a very low standard to hold God to. 

    It's not God's standard were talking about, it's our standard of what should be believed and consistency is fairly important for that.  If is was inconsistent you might have some reason to think that it wasn't true.


    Yes, its our standard we are talking about, and by our puny human standards, a God that cannot rise above mere consistency is not worth worshipping. 

    And commanding his followers to stone women to death is a good reason to think he doesn't exist anyway.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #169 - January 13, 2009, 05:19 PM

    I was referring to these quotes, not that one:

    Deuteronomy 7:1-2    When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations . . . then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

    20:10-17    When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace.
    If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you.
    If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city.
    When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it.
    As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. . . .
    This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.


    Which, as I have said, were commands to the Israelites - not generic 'followers' to kill a particular group of people - not all their 'enemies'.  Hence they are not commands to me at all.

    You should wonder why you continually need to obfuscate if you really have a point to make.


    Its not obfuscation, it proves to me your God has demanded for a group of people to be eliminated i.e. he reminds me of Milosovic.  Also if that is something he does, then he seemingly does not care about any innocent people who may not have done anything wrong.

    My questioin is this:

    If God also commanded you to exterminate a group of people, would you do it?

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  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #170 - January 13, 2009, 05:21 PM

    Quote from: a.ghazali
    So when you dabble in polytheism God sends palgues? And you must kill those who indulges and spreads polytheism. What's up with God at present? Has he fallen asleep? Maybe he hasn't noticed that about a billion people on the planet are polytheists.


    You'd have to ask him.  But no, when the Israelites dabbled in polytheism, God sent plagues on them.  You are again generalising with no foundation.
    Quote from: a.ghazali
    Well it does concern you because you are attempting to justify this story. You said

    " judgement seems to reflect his assessment of what was necessary to protect the Israelites from idolatrous influences"

    If this is necessary judgement to protect his followers from the evils of idol worship then as one of his followers He should also feel the need to protect you from this most horrendous offence to him.

    Therefore he could conceivably ask you, as he did ask Moses to destroy the culprits (except the virgins) in vengeance. I mean if Jesus did appear before you and told you to do it, would you?

    I am not 'justifying' the story.  I am arguing that it presents no evidence of a contradiction in God's character as presented by Hassan.

    'what I would do' has no relevance to that question.  And it is a non-sequitor to claim that God's action for one group of people would necessarily extend to everyone.

    Quote from: a.ghazali
    So if your god feels that women who convinces someone to accept a polytheistic religion should be killed. I suppose you feel the same way also. I'm sure you won't carry it out in practice but you must feel yourself inclined to that position?

    No, because I'm not God.  Another non-sequitor.
    Quote from: a.ghazali
    I mean the story of God's vengeance on people who worship many idols is pointless if his followers do not take heed and assure such things do not occur in god's sight.

    No, it isn't pointless.  It shows that sin matters, judgement happens, judgement is God's prerogative and his followers should do what he tells them to.  His command to me is to love my enemies.  The fact that I know God will judge people, helps me not to think that I need to take revenge myself and enables me to love others instead.  The fact that he sent his son reminds me that such judgement is indeed a last resort and not an emotional 'lashing out' and that apart from his son, I am in the same boat as those being judged - not fundamentally different to them.

    None of this means that the story is any kind of instruction to me.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #171 - January 13, 2009, 06:13 PM

    God gave commands to the Israelites for the purpose of preserving them as a people through which he would carry out his promise to Abraham to bless the world through them - i.e. through the Messiah.  Once the Messiah had come, that purpose had been fulfilled.  Jesus talks about being the 'fulfillment' of the law.  Jesus said 'my kingdom is not of this world'.  Hence the aim of the Christian is not to create a 'heaven on earth' national state but to live according to the reality of Christ's spiritual kingdom - a kingdom characterised by love.

    The problem with 'look here, God wants Christians to stone adulterers - it says so in Leviticus' is that it anachronistically takes a command given to one group of people at one time for one purpose and applies it generally without any justification.

    In addition, you are also taking something intended as a societal law and making it a moral standard.  Jesus says that he hates divorce but divorce was permitted in the Old Testament law because to permit it resulted in less evil being done that prohibiting it would have in the context of a sinful people.  As a result, some things might have been commanded because they were pragmatically the 'best' option for the society at the time even though they didn't describe the morally ideal behaviour.

    So in this case, the meaning of the passage is 'the Israelites were commanded to stone adulterers'.

    Given this, Christians can learn moral principles from the OT law that might relate to how they live their lives as individuals.  In this case, 'adultery is morally wrong' might be one - especially as it is reinforced numerous times in the New Testament.  But, as far as I can see, the bible is largely silent on what kind of societal laws Christians should advocate for given that Jesus is not expecting (or wanting) us to set up Christian 'kingdoms'.


    Thanks, Sparky, I am disappointed that you still refuse to answer my questions about the verses regarding homosexuality. Suffice to say I do not find any of your explanations presented here have changed my mind one tiny bit that the god of the Old Testament is an appallingly violent, bloodthirsty, sadistic psycho who is not worthy of worship. (If such a monster existed, which of course I do not believe 'it' does.)


  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #172 - January 13, 2009, 06:17 PM

    Quote
    The question for me is 'does the command contradict God's revealed nature in some way?'.  Which is a different thing from saying 'is it acceptable?' which could mean anything from 'I think such a law would be acceptable if it was in force today' to 'it warms my heart to think that such a law existed!'.


    The question for me was, in what context does that command become acceptable?  I guess this is your answer - if it is consistent with God's revealed nature throughout the rest of the Bible it is acceptable.

    Mere consistency strikes me as a very low standard to hold God to. 

    It's not God's standard were talking about, it's our standard of what should be believed and consistency is fairly important for that.  If is was inconsistent you might have some reason to think that it wasn't true.


    Yes, its our standard we are talking about, and by our puny human standards, a God that cannot rise above mere consistency is not worth worshipping. 

    And commanding his followers to stone women to death is a good reason to think he doesn't exist anyway.

    What is there 'above' consistency, when we are talking about truth?  Consistency is not 'mere' and is one of the standards we use for judging truth.

    This says nothing about whether God can or cannot rise 'above' it.

    And your logic fails - massively.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #173 - January 13, 2009, 06:18 PM

    I was referring to these quotes, not that one:

    Deuteronomy 7:1-2    When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations . . . then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

    20:10-17    When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace.
    If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you.
    If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city.
    When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it.
    As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. . . .
    This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.


    Which, as I have said, were commands to the Israelites - not generic 'followers' to kill a particular group of people - not all their 'enemies'.  Hence they are not commands to me at all.

    You should wonder why you continually need to obfuscate if you really have a point to make.


    Its not obfuscation, it proves to me your God has demanded for a group of people to be eliminated i.e. he reminds me of Milosovic.  Also if that is something he does, then he seemingly does not care about any innocent people who may not have done anything wrong.

    My questioin is this:

    If God also commanded you to exterminate a group of people, would you do it?

    He wouldn't so it's a useless comparative.  And Milosovic is not God so the comparison there fails also.  God - as our creator - has the right to judge us.  Milosovic does not.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #174 - January 13, 2009, 06:26 PM

    God gave commands to the Israelites for the purpose of preserving them as a people through which he would carry out his promise to Abraham to bless the world through them - i.e. through the Messiah.  Once the Messiah had come, that purpose had been fulfilled.  Jesus talks about being the 'fulfillment' of the law.  Jesus said 'my kingdom is not of this world'.  Hence the aim of the Christian is not to create a 'heaven on earth' national state but to live according to the reality of Christ's spiritual kingdom - a kingdom characterised by love.

    The problem with 'look here, God wants Christians to stone adulterers - it says so in Leviticus' is that it anachronistically takes a command given to one group of people at one time for one purpose and applies it generally without any justification.

    In addition, you are also taking something intended as a societal law and making it a moral standard.  Jesus says that he hates divorce but divorce was permitted in the Old Testament law because to permit it resulted in less evil being done that prohibiting it would have in the context of a sinful people.  As a result, some things might have been commanded because they were pragmatically the 'best' option for the society at the time even though they didn't describe the morally ideal behaviour.

    So in this case, the meaning of the passage is 'the Israelites were commanded to stone adulterers'.

    Given this, Christians can learn moral principles from the OT law that might relate to how they live their lives as individuals.  In this case, 'adultery is morally wrong' might be one - especially as it is reinforced numerous times in the New Testament.  But, as far as I can see, the bible is largely silent on what kind of societal laws Christians should advocate for given that Jesus is not expecting (or wanting) us to set up Christian 'kingdoms'.


    Thanks, Sparky, I am disappointed that you still refuse to answer my questions about the verses regarding homosexuality. Suffice to say I do not find any of your explanations presented here have changed my mind one tiny bit that the god of the Old Testament is an appallingly violent, bloodthirsty, sadistic psycho who is not worthy of worship. (If such a monster existed, which of course I do not believe 'it' does.)

    No problem.  Hopefully you are at least marginally more educated on the subject than you were when you prepared your video.

    God's existence really doesn't depend on your preferences.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #175 - January 13, 2009, 08:47 PM

    Hassan,

    What's the point of asking sparky what his stance regarding homosexuality is? I'm sure you have read most of the postings in this thread. It's apparent that he showed more willingness to discuss the verses about God's punishment for certain people than the verses that deal with homosexuality. He has confirmed that he doesn't have a problem with the commands God gave to the Israelites and other believers in the context of the biblical events. Pretty sad stuff.

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  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #176 - January 14, 2009, 12:04 AM

    God gave commands to the Israelites for the purpose of preserving them as a people through which he would carry out his promise to Abraham to bless the world through them - i.e. through the Messiah.  Once the Messiah had come, that purpose had been fulfilled.  Jesus talks about being the 'fulfillment' of the law.  Jesus said 'my kingdom is not of this world'.  Hence the aim of the Christian is not to create a 'heaven on earth' national state but to live according to the reality of Christ's spiritual kingdom - a kingdom characterised by love.

    The problem with 'look here, God wants Christians to stone adulterers - it says so in Leviticus' is that it anachronistically takes a command given to one group of people at one time for one purpose and applies it generally without any justification.

    In addition, you are also taking something intended as a societal law and making it a moral standard.  Jesus says that he hates divorce but divorce was permitted in the Old Testament law because to permit it resulted in less evil being done that prohibiting it would have in the context of a sinful people.  As a result, some things might have been commanded because they were pragmatically the 'best' option for the society at the time even though they didn't describe the morally ideal behaviour.

    So in this case, the meaning of the passage is 'the Israelites were commanded to stone adulterers'.

    Given this, Christians can learn moral principles from the OT law that might relate to how they live their lives as individuals.  In this case, 'adultery is morally wrong' might be one - especially as it is reinforced numerous times in the New Testament.  But, as far as I can see, the bible is largely silent on what kind of societal laws Christians should advocate for given that Jesus is not expecting (or wanting) us to set up Christian 'kingdoms'.


    Thanks, Sparky, I am disappointed that you still refuse to answer my questions about the verses regarding homosexuality. Suffice to say I do not find any of your explanations presented here have changed my mind one tiny bit that the god of the Old Testament is an appallingly violent, bloodthirsty, sadistic psycho who is not worthy of worship. (If such a monster existed, which of course I do not believe 'it' does.)

    No problem.  Hopefully you are at least marginally more educated on the subject than you were when you prepared your video.

    God's existence really doesn't depend on your preferences.


    I really do admire you Sparky- you've managed to keep up a valiant defence of your faith for a whopping 11 pages. A veritable 300-esque battle against the odds.
    It's a glowing testimony to the power of religion over common sense.

    We are in favor of tolerance, but it is a very difficult thing to tolerate the intolerant and impossible to tolerate the intolerable.

    -George Dennison Prentice
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #177 - January 14, 2009, 01:14 AM

    Why is it ok for the Israelites to kill people that God had commanded them to kill?  Because God commanded them to do it!

    Lovely. And of course you can prove this?

    Mind you the problem isn't as great as it may seem since the OT contains almost no historical content at all and is primarily mythology, which means nobody got killed anyway. It's still an extremely nasty story though. It brings to mind things like the Holocaust and the Rwanda massacres.

    Don't be dense.  In the context of this discussion, it's assumed that God commanded them to do it.  Otherwise it's a discussion about nothing at all.

    You seem to be missing the point again. You are the one who makes the assumption that a putative deity really did give the orders. Other people are not so certain of this and think that perhaps people just made it up. The barbarity of it is one of the things that makes them think this. I notice that once again you are resorting to insults. Keep digging, Sparky.

    No, it is assumed by Hassan in his video - 'it's the same God isn't it - the God of the Old Testament is the God of the New Testament'.  That's the whole context for the discussion.

    Try to keep up.

    Oh dear, Sparky, you are flailing now. Hassan makes no such assumption. He doesn't believe that the god of the bible even exists. He is quite convinced that the bible is not the slightest bit historical. His video is about why he cannot believe your version of god is real.

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  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #178 - January 14, 2009, 09:07 AM


    No, it is assumed by Hassan in his video - 'it's the same God isn't it - the God of the Old Testament is the God of the New Testament'.  That's the whole context for the discussion.

    Try to keep up.

    Oh dear, Sparky, you are flailing now. Hassan makes no such assumption. He doesn't believe that the god of the bible even exists. He is quite convinced that the bible is not the slightest bit historical. His video is about why he cannot believe your version of god is real.


    Sparky - I dont like the way you argue as it is very dishonest.  Christianity expects more.  In this example you have plainly lied in order to prove you are right. 

    Hassans point was not "Is God of the Old Testament the God of the New Testament", it was just a critique of Chrisitianity, my guess was to show that Christianity is not that much different from Islam in terms of tyranny. 

    The same reason he has asked you to explain your views on homosexuality, the same reason he listed all those other quotes. 

    If you are still unsure, we could always ask him ?

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  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #179 - January 14, 2009, 09:33 AM

    I was referring to these quotes, not that one:



    Which, as I have said, were commands to the Israelites - not generic 'followers' to kill a particular group of people - not all their 'enemies'.  Hence they are not commands to me at all.

    You should wonder why you continually need to obfuscate if you really have a point to make.


    Its not obfuscation, it proves to me your God has demanded for a group of people to be eliminated i.e. he reminds me of Milosovic.  Also if that is something he does, then he seemingly does not care about any innocent people who may not have done anything wrong.

    My question is this:

    If God also commanded you to exterminate a group of people, would you do it?


    He wouldn't so it's a useless comparative.  And Milosovic is not God so the comparison there fails also.  God - as our creator - has the right to judge us.  Milosovic does not.




    As you did not say no, I assume you would wipe out a race too if God had commanded you to do it.

    Its a useful comparative, as it likens your God (with Milosovic tendencies), with the Islamic God (with Bin Laden tendencies).  I am glad as it appears that I have now come to the bottom of this (we could have done this a lot earlier had you been a little more straightforward)

    You say the difference between Milosovoic and God, is that God has the right to judge us?   

    So provided you have the right to judge, then Chrisitianity has no problem with obliterating a race of people? Castigating homosexuals? Stoning women?  

    In fairness to you, the only reason you have probably allowed yourself to believe this, is because you were probably born into it

    To conclude the picture you have painted of Christianity is a very ugly one (for the same reasons I left Islam) and am disappointed that people like you cannot see beyond its thin walls. 

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