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 Topic: Readings from the "Holy Book"

 (Read 75772 times)
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  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #390 - January 29, 2009, 11:38 AM

    Quote from: IsLame
    I've not finished yet, are you planning to respond to my last post below?


    Sorry, forgot to respond to this....

    Uh, no.  But whenever you have something that is not a repetition of something I have already answered, a lie or a random, unrelated red herring opinion with no supporting evidence, feel free to jump in again.

    Oh, and congratulations on that 'poster of the month' thing!  Afro


    ******Warning***** to others who wish to debate with Sparky

    You better stay on the same page as Sparky's mental rehabilition programme, otherwise he will cut you out.  His aim is to stop you thinking for yourself, lose any sense of what is right and wrong and then, and only when operation lobotomy is successful, will he be ready to engage you with Jesus Christ.

    **************************************************************************

    If 'mental rehabilitation' involves avoiding logical fallacies, repetition and red herrings, absolutely!  But then if you rely on these to retain what you believe in, I suspect the problem is yours not mine.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #391 - January 29, 2009, 11:45 AM

    Sparky is persistent - I'll give him that. A little weirdly and obsessively persistent - but persistent, nevertheless. It's also obvious that he believes he is defeating all and sundry with the sword of Christian truth. All he needs now at the end of each of his posts is dancing letters spelling out "Dismissed!"  grin12

    And yet it was you who felt the need to post an ill-researched, logically flawed video followed up by random posts of unrelated verses.  You don't need any kind of sword to defeat that!


    As I said, nothing you have said on this thread has made me think the basic message of my video was wrong - quite the contrary in fact, I am more than ever convinced that no amount of justifications makes the violence in the Bible acceptable.

    I'm not sure what your aim here is, Sparky - I suspect it is to try and bring others to Christ/Christianity. If that is the case then I have to say that you drive me further away from him/Christianity.

    In addition, when you refuse - at the very least - to even see that sane and reasonable people (like all of us on this forum) have good reason not to believe in Christianity, it is hard to see you as anything other than a rather blinkered, smug and contemptuous person.

    Fortunately I know many open-minded, balanced, humble and loving Christians and so would never assume that your attitude is typical of Christians.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #392 - January 29, 2009, 11:50 AM

    All normal human experiences the Jesus endures for the purpose that God has set him.


    But how did God set Jesus a task? Isn't Jesus God? Shouldn't it be God set Himself a task?

    But then Jesus was talking to God when he was down here. Was he actually talking to Himself?

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #393 - January 29, 2009, 11:59 AM

    It does not give you grounds to make any kind of claim about people's behaviour being either right or wrong - which would need objective evidence.

    That makes no sense. It's just an opinion. We are well within our rights to give an opinion on a particular situation and as I stated before 'right' and 'wrong' can be objective or subjective depending on context.

    And I disagreed.  If used without qualifiers they are generally assumed to be universal claims like correct and incorrect.  You could say 'this behaviour is right for me' but what would the point of that be?  You made up the 'rule', you can break it again.

    It is just an opinion - and like other opinions, exists only in your head unless supported by external evidence.

    And I have no idea what these 'rights' are that you keep talking about.  Is there something that you don't have a right to do?  Why?

    You're disagreeing with nothing. The point of it is to state your opinion. What other point would there be? Why does there even need to be some big universal meaning behind the claim? As I told you before we are perfectly capable of knowing whether something is opinion or not. Something being subjective doesn't mean we can't state it.

    Correct and incorrect can also be subjective depending on context.

    What do you mean what rights? I'm talking of freedom of speech. You seem to be assuming we should not be expressing what we feel is right and wrong simply because it's subjective. You're also ignoring the fact that 'right' and 'wrong' can be inferring to law.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #394 - January 29, 2009, 12:02 PM

    As I said, nothing you have said on this thread has made me think anything in my video was wrong


    The bible can be vague and contradictory and can be used to show umpteen PoV's. Is there any wonder there are so many sects within it?

    So sparky sees from an angle with his blinkers on, with no attempt to entertain other people's view, no matter how rational.

    If its in the bible it must be true. Its god's word. God did it so it must be right.

    There must be an explanation/apology somewhere for those difficult issues. One can find so many apologies for everything and they can be made quite believable.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #395 - January 29, 2009, 12:23 PM

    Sparky is persistent - I'll give him that. A little weirdly and obsessively persistent - but persistent, nevertheless. It's also obvious that he believes he is defeating all and sundry with the sword of Christian truth. All he needs now at the end of each of his posts is dancing letters spelling out "Dismissed!"  grin12

    And yet it was you who felt the need to post an ill-researched, logically flawed video followed up by random posts of unrelated verses.  You don't need any kind of sword to defeat that!


    As I said, nothing you have said on this thread has made me think the basic message of my video was wrong - quite the contrary in fact, I am more than ever convinced that no amount of justifications makes the violence in the Bible acceptable.

    Of course you don't.  When you base your beliefs on logical fallacies it is actually impossible to convince you otherwise.  I can only point out the problems, the rest is up to you.

    Quote from: Hassan
    I'm not sure what your aim here is, Sparky - I suspect it is to try and bring others to Christ/Christianity. If that is the case then I have to say that you drive me further away from him/Christianity.

    My only aim is to call people on the rubbish they post about Christianity.  I don't have to be a Christian to do that at all.

    Quote from: Hassan
    In addition, when you refuse - at the very least - to even see that sane and reasonable people (like all of us on this forum) have good reason not to believe in Christianity, it is hard to see you as anything other than a rather blinkered, smug and contemptuous person.

    And yet I'm not the one who posted a video of what was little more than a rant.  And began trolling irrelevancies.  Go figure!

    What is plain from your posts, Hassan, is that the hate that you so virulently claim to oppose, oozes out at every turn.

    Quote from: Hassan
    Fortunately I know many open-minded, balanced, humble and loving Christians and so would never assume that your attitude is typical of Christians.

    Which demonstrates, once again, that you actually have no argument at all.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #396 - January 29, 2009, 12:24 PM

    All normal human experiences the Jesus endures for the purpose that God has set him.


    But how did God set Jesus a task? Isn't Jesus God? Shouldn't it be God set Himself a task?

    But then Jesus was talking to God when he was down here. Was he actually talking to Himself?

    God the Father set him a task and Jesus, God the son, was talking to God the Father.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #397 - January 29, 2009, 12:31 PM

    It does not give you grounds to make any kind of claim about people's behaviour being either right or wrong - which would need objective evidence.

    That makes no sense. It's just an opinion. We are well within our rights to give an opinion on a particular situation and as I stated before 'right' and 'wrong' can be objective or subjective depending on context.

    And I disagreed.  If used without qualifiers they are generally assumed to be universal claims like correct and incorrect.  You could say 'this behaviour is right for me' but what would the point of that be?  You made up the 'rule', you can break it again.

    It is just an opinion - and like other opinions, exists only in your head unless supported by external evidence.

    And I have no idea what these 'rights' are that you keep talking about.  Is there something that you don't have a right to do?  Why?

    You're disagreeing with nothing. The point of it is to state your opinion. What other point would there be? Why does there even need to be some big universal meaning behind the claim? As I told you before we are perfectly capable of knowing whether something is opinion or not. Something being subjective doesn't mean we can't state it.

    Correct and incorrect can also be subjective depending on context.

    What do you mean what rights? I'm talking of freedom of speech. You seem to be assuming we should not be expressing what we feel is right and wrong simply because it's subjective. You're also ignoring the fact that 'right' and 'wrong' can be inferring to law.

    I'm not ignoring anything.  When qualifiers exist, the context to 'right' and 'wrong' is relevant.  When no qualifiers exist such as 'for me' or 'assuming X' then they are generally understood to be absolute statements.

    I'm questioning 'rights' because you seem to be presenting them as something relevant for guiding human behaviour.  As you have already said, there isn't any objective guide for human behaviour and so your appeal to rights is entirely irrelevant.  You may have an unevidence opinion that you have a right to free speech but there is reason anyone else should care one way or the other.

    I'm not saying that you should or shouldn't be expressing anything.  Express what you like.  All I'm pointing out is that unevidenced opinions are of no more relevance to reality than claims about your FSM or the fairies at the bottom of the garden.

    And are you going to answer my question about conscience?  How do you experience yours?
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #398 - January 29, 2009, 12:33 PM

    Sparky you never got back to me on my question as to whether Adam & Eve were created with the knowledge of right and wrong. With morals to know the what they should and shouldn't do.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #399 - January 29, 2009, 12:34 PM

    As I said, nothing you have said on this thread has made me think anything in my video was wrong


    The bible can be vague and contradictory and can be used to show umpteen PoV's. Is there any wonder there are so many sects within it?

    So sparky sees from an angle with his blinkers on, with no attempt to entertain other people's view, no matter how rational.

    If its in the bible it must be true. Its god's word. God did it so it must be right.

    There must be an explanation/apology somewhere for those difficult issues. One can find so many apologies for everything and they can be made quite believable.

    You made a series of claims about Jesus that I'm still waiting for you to support with evidence.  Until you do, your claims, like Hassan's remain completely irrelevant to assessing the truth of Christianity.

    I'm more than happy to entertain another point of view if it is presented rationally.  If someone says 'well I just feel it's wrong and I'm not convinced otherwise', there is just no rational argument to talk about.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #400 - January 29, 2009, 12:40 PM

    My only aim is to call people on the rubbish they post about Christianity.


    That's very noble of you, Sparky. Do you provide this service to whole internet or just places where you find Ex-Muslims?

    Does it matter that you fail to convince anyone as well as push people further away from Christianity?

    I don't have to be a Christian to do that at all


    Any reason why you mentioned that?

  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #401 - January 29, 2009, 12:40 PM

    Sparky you never got back to me on my question as to whether Adam & Eve were created with the knowledge of right and wrong. With morals to know the what they should and shouldn't do.

    There have been alot of irrelevant questions asked on this thread - several by you and which you failed to demonstrate were relevant to the topic.  This is just one more.  No, I don't feel obliged to answer every random question that I am asked.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #402 - January 29, 2009, 12:43 PM

    It does not give you grounds to make any kind of claim about people's behaviour being either right or wrong - which would need objective evidence.

    That makes no sense. It's just an opinion. We are well within our rights to give an opinion on a particular situation and as I stated before 'right' and 'wrong' can be objective or subjective depending on context.

    And I disagreed.  If used without qualifiers they are generally assumed to be universal claims like correct and incorrect.  You could say 'this behaviour is right for me' but what would the point of that be?  You made up the 'rule', you can break it again.

    It is just an opinion - and like other opinions, exists only in your head unless supported by external evidence.

    And I have no idea what these 'rights' are that you keep talking about.  Is there something that you don't have a right to do?  Why?

    You're disagreeing with nothing. The point of it is to state your opinion. What other point would there be? Why does there even need to be some big universal meaning behind the claim? As I told you before we are perfectly capable of knowing whether something is opinion or not. Something being subjective doesn't mean we can't state it.

    Correct and incorrect can also be subjective depending on context.

    What do you mean what rights? I'm talking of freedom of speech. You seem to be assuming we should not be expressing what we feel is right and wrong simply because it's subjective. You're also ignoring the fact that 'right' and 'wrong' can be inferring to law.

    I'm not ignoring anything.  When qualifiers exist, the context to 'right' and 'wrong' is relevant.  When no qualifiers exist such as 'for me' or 'assuming X' then they are generally understood to be absolute statements.

    I'm questioning 'rights' because you seem to be presenting them as something relevant for guiding human behaviour.  As you have already said, there isn't any objective guide for human behaviour and so your appeal to rights is entirely irrelevant.  You may have an unevidence opinion that you have a right to free speech but there is reason anyone else should care one way or the other.

    I'm not saying that you should or shouldn't be expressing anything.  Express what you like.  All I'm pointing out is that unevidenced opinions are of no more relevance to reality than claims about your FSM or the fairies at the bottom of the garden.

    And are you going to answer my question about conscience?  How do you experience yours?

    What qualifiers are you on about? I've shown you they're meaning changes depending on context making any qualifiers redundant. Human language changes.

    So what if unevidenced opinion have no more relevance than fairies? We can still express them and people will, subjective or not. You're still arguing about essentially nothing.

    As for what is objective, one can argue the law is objective as we have to follow it whether we agree or not. The same with god's laws. If god's are to be considered objective I don't see why man made laws cannot. Both laws can be disagreed with and they are, however we are entitled to follow them.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #403 - January 29, 2009, 12:44 PM

    God the Father set him a task and Jesus, God the son, was talking to God the Father.


    And what was God the Holy Spirit doing all the while?

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #404 - January 29, 2009, 12:44 PM

    As for conciousness, it is something that tells me what is right and wrong (subjectively of course).
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #405 - January 29, 2009, 12:46 PM

    Sparky you never got back to me on my question as to whether Adam & Eve were created with the knowledge of right and wrong. With morals to know the what they should and shouldn't do.

    There have been alot of irrelevant questions asked on this thread - several by you and which you failed to demonstrate were relevant to the topic.  This is just one more.  No, I don't feel obliged to answer every random question that I am asked.


    Irrelevant? Random?

    We were discussing morality. The question was about the morality of the first two human beings according to your holy book which according to you is the only source of morality.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #406 - January 29, 2009, 12:53 PM


    Irrelevant? Random?

    We were discussing morality. The question was about the morality of the first two human beings according to your holy book which according to you is the only source of morality.



    If a question cannot be answered with the "logical fallacy" stamp, it gets the "irrelevent and random" one. 

    Stick with the programme Ghazali, or you will be refused Guidance.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #407 - January 29, 2009, 01:03 PM


    Irrelevant? Random?

    We were discussing morality. The question was about the morality of the first two human beings according to your holy book which according to you is the only source of morality.


    If a question cannot be answered with the "logical fallacy" stamp, it gets the "irrelevent and random" one. 


    Well we do get the "Non-Sequitur", or "Unevidenced" stamp thrown in quite often.

    Quote
    Stick with the programme Ghazali, or you will be refused Guidance.



    But I need guidance  Huh?

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #408 - January 29, 2009, 01:10 PM

    from his all-confused, all-non sequituring Holiness

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #409 - January 29, 2009, 01:12 PM

    Sparky you never got back to me on my question as to whether Adam & Eve were created with the knowledge of right and wrong. With morals to know the what they should and shouldn't do.

    There have been alot of irrelevant questions asked on this thread - several by you and which you failed to demonstrate were relevant to the topic.  This is just one more.  No, I don't feel obliged to answer every random question that I am asked.

    Still omnipotent, huh.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #410 - January 29, 2009, 01:23 PM

    It's also obvious that he believes he is defeating all and sundry with the sword of Christian truth

    And yet it was you who felt the need to post an ill-researched, logically flawed video followed up by random posts of unrelated verses.  You don't need any kind of sword to defeat that!


    If it was so ill-researched & logically flawed, why has it taken 26 pages to convince no-one that it was?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #411 - January 29, 2009, 01:30 PM

    We are all either stupid, or you are blinded by your own belief system? (or you are stupid, but won't include that because I dont think its true)

    Which one is it?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #412 - January 29, 2009, 01:43 PM

    Neither, I think. Just fatally Poed at some time, possibly in the recent past.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #413 - January 29, 2009, 01:45 PM

    Quote from: Hassan
    That's very noble of you, Sparky. Do you provide this service to whole internet or just places where you find Ex-Muslims?

    I happen to be here, for now, and there seems to be plenty of material to deal with.

    Quote from: Hassan
    Does it matter that you fail to convince anyone as well as put people off Christianity?

    Not really, no.  But I see that you still can't get over the idea that the 'attractiveness' of a claim has some bearing on its truth.

    Quote from: Hassan
    Quote from: sparky
    I don't have to be a Christian to do that at all

    That seemed a bit random. Any reason why you mentioned that?

    To point out that a bad argument is a bad argument - whatever the worldview of the person who points that out.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #414 - January 29, 2009, 02:01 PM

    The big baby's got me on ignore. I can't be arsed to debate with him. It's like being up to the knees in glutinous mud with the tide coming in. He's got an absolute obsession about the derivation of 'morality' and everything has to be done on his narrowly defined terms. I think you lot are doing a great number on him though but I doubt if you'll shift what seems to be a bid for martyrdom.
    But, one of you may want to engage him on the Q of whether there's such a thing as Altruism and , if so, how it might relate to morality, if you can get him to admit to the existence of it.
    Having said that, he'll probably trot out the same old drivel about morality being god-given without first having given any evidence of his god. It'll be the hamster-wheel in the sky again: should keep him going for another 6 years.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #415 - January 29, 2009, 02:08 PM

    Quote from: PeruvianSkies
    What qualifiers are you on about? I've shown you they're meaning changes depending on context making any qualifiers redundant. Human language changes.


    I gave you an example of qualifiers (which is probably not much different to context) - like 'for me' or 'given assumption X'.  If you say 'it is wrong to kill someone' it would be generally assumed that this meant that you believed that it was wrong for everyone and people would naturally expect you to provide some evidence to support the universality of your claim.  If you say 'it is wrong for me to kill someone' it would be ambiguous whether you were making a universal claim or not.  The only correct way to express what you really mean is to say 'I would prefer if people didn't kill other people'.  Only then does it become clear that you are not making a universal claim and should therefore not be expected to provide evidence.  

    Actually, you haven't shown me anything.  You have repeatedly claimed that they can have a different meaning without showing any examples where they do.  

    And human language is quite adequate for the purpose you need to use it.  You resist this because you actually don't want to give up making a universal claim even though you have no evidence to support it.

    Quote from: PeruvianSkies
    So what if unevidenced opinion have no more relevance than fairies? We can still express them and people will, subjective or not. You're still arguing about essentially nothing.

    No, I'm agreeing with you.  Just don't bother making reference to 'rights' or anything else if you want ton convince me of something.  In fact don't bother making an value statements at all.
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies
    As for what is objective, one can argue the law is objective as we have to follow it whether we agree or not. The same with god's laws. If god's are to be considered objective I don't see why man made laws cannot. Both laws can be disagreed with and they are, however we are entitled to follow them.

    Societal law is objective because it is external to your mind - not because we may or may not agree with it.  I have no issue with the existence of societal law as there is ample evidence that can be brought to show that it exists.  The question was about the existence of moral law.  You have agreed that you believe moral law doesn't exist and that societal law is distinct from moral law.

    In the same way that societal law will judge you whether or not you agree with it.  So it is with God's moral law.  You can disagree all you like with either but it will have no effect on whether you will suffer the consequences if you break the law.  The question isn't whether you are entitled to follow them but that you are required to follow them.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #416 - January 29, 2009, 02:25 PM

    As for conciousness, it is something that tells me what is right and wrong (subjectively of course).

    It's 'conscience' not 'consciousness' (which is probably another worthwhile discussion).

    And it does tell you what is right and wrong (without qualifiers).  It is a subjective experience but it seems to make objective claims.  My conscience doesn't say only that it is wrong for me to rape someone but that it is wrong from anyone to rape anyone else.  My conscience doesn't bother me about whether I use Firefox or IE but does seem to bother me about whether I eat too much at dinner.  It judges my thoughts as well as my actions.  It seems to arbitrate between different desires I might have.

    Anyone else I have met seems to experience conscience in much the same way that I do.

    So, if I accept a worldview that says that an objective morality doesn't really exist, I end up in the awkward position of daily experiencing a conscience that is, in effect, lying to me.

    So while it could well be the case that due to a quirk of evolution, it actually is an illusion, I find it far easier to believe that God exists and is the source of a true objective morality.  And that my experience of conscience is some dim reflection of this fact.

    The universal human experience of conscience is part of my 'evidence', if you like, that God exists.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #417 - January 29, 2009, 02:26 PM

    Sparky you never got back to me on my question as to whether Adam & Eve were created with the knowledge of right and wrong. With morals to know the what they should and shouldn't do.

    There have been alot of irrelevant questions asked on this thread - several by you and which you failed to demonstrate were relevant to the topic.  This is just one more.  No, I don't feel obliged to answer every random question that I am asked.


    Irrelevant? Random?

    We were discussing morality. The question was about the morality of the first two human beings according to your holy book which according to you is the only source of morality.

    No, God is the source of morality.  The bible is where we find out about it.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #418 - January 29, 2009, 02:28 PM

    Sparky you never got back to me on my question as to whether Adam & Eve were created with the knowledge of right and wrong. With morals to know the what they should and shouldn't do.

    There have been alot of irrelevant questions asked on this thread - several by you and which you failed to demonstrate were relevant to the topic.  This is just one more.  No, I don't feel obliged to answer every random question that I am asked.


    Translation: 'i don't know.' Smiley

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Readings from the "Holy Book"
     Reply #419 - January 29, 2009, 02:38 PM

    Quote from: sojournerlumus
    The big baby's got me on ignore.

    No I don't.  I just can't remember the last time you actually said something worthwhile - normally being content just to throw in snide remarks.

    Quote from: sojournerlumus
    I can't be arsed to debate with him.

    Which is quite obvious.

    Quote from: sojournerlumus
    He's got an absolute obsession about the derivation of 'morality' and everything has to be done on his narrowly defined terms.

    But, you see, sojourner, not all atheists have come to your enlightened position of being able to admit that all morality is subjective.  For some reason, they want to cling on to the idea that somehow, somewhere, it must make sense to say that some behaviour is actually wrong!  Your best contribution would be to jump in and say 'don't be an idiot, fellow atheist, of course morality is subjective and no more relevant to reality than santa claus'.

    Of course, I'd just be happier to admit that I can't escape the idea that an objective morality exists and try to find an explanation of reality that fits this experience than to deny the experience.  If someone gives me a logical reason that it isn't true, then I suppose I'll have to accept my internal delusion along with everyone else.

    Quote from: sojournerlumus
    But, one of you may want to engage him on the Q of whether there's such a thing as Altruism and , if so, how it might relate to morality, if you can get him to admit to the existence of it.

    Be my guest.  Give us some definitions and make an argument!  You might want to start by explaining how altruism exists when no evidence can be provided for an objective good.
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