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Theme Changer

 Topic: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.

 (Read 9725 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     OP - January 18, 2009, 08:17 AM

    http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/01/16/israel-on-the-map/#comments



    Take a quick squizz at the map of Israel above.

    Hamas are now claiming they can reach up to 45 kilometers (28 miles) into Israel with their rockets. Iran's PressTV claims rockets fired from Gaza hit the Tel Nof airbase, just 27 km short of Tel Aviv.

    Right, so the map... I think the it's the rockets, stoopid! has been downplayed and denied by many of Israel's critics who won't believe this was behind Israel's decision to confront Hamas. But recognising the issue of the rockets is, in fact, key to understanding the Israeli psyche and the key to unlocking the peace process.

    Like many, I support a two state solution which involves Israel withdrawing from the West Bank, lifting the blockade of Gaza and consolidating its 1967 borders, and the creation of a viable Palestinian state, ideally with an EU-style regional economic co-operation.

    I think that Israel should withdraw from the West Bank to get this process started.

    But here's why they probably won't.

    The red section of the map represents that portion of Israel that would be - for the moment, at least - out of range of Hamas rockets if the experience of the Gaza withdrawal were repeated and Hamas took control of the West Bank.  Yes, only those Jews who wandered the Negev Dessert would be safe from the daily rocket barrages.

    And this, unfortunately, is the most likely reason why a withdrawal from the West Bank is unlikely, if not impossible.  The withdrawal from Gaza was supposed to be a pilot project, but the opportunity was squandered by Hamas because - if this hasn't sunk in yet - they want to be locked in eternal conflict.

    Those who follow the "We are all Hamas" line and support their "resistance" are the ones squandering opportunities for peace and destroying the Palestinian people's future. "With friends like these" is something ordinary Palestinians should take note of.

    Israel quite simply isn't going to budge while it feels threatened. So to those who say they genuinely want peace and a lasting settlement, but express "solidarity" with Hamas, I repeat:

    It's the rockets. stoopid. Bring pressure to bear to make them stop.

    The map tells the story.
  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #1 - January 18, 2009, 08:25 AM

    They are just as bad as each other.
  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #2 - January 18, 2009, 08:57 AM

    Well saying that doesn't help. I hope Obama doesn't take that approach Wink Wink Wink

    People need to do everything they can to put pressure on Hamas to stop their rockets. Bringing pressure to bear on Hamas not Israel is the key to peace in the Middle East. Once you've got Hamas either sidelined, behaving themselves or out of the picture totally then serious pressure can be applied to the Israelis.

    Whether you like it or not Israel has the power to stay put and while it is threatened it is almost impossible to see them giving yet more territory to people who will most likely use it to launch yet more attacks.

    Thats the real politick of the situation. Israel has the power so they call the shots and militarily that map and the Hamas jihad mean that for Israel 67 borders are out of the question. No general is going to look at that map and say lets give the Palestinians more territory especially when Hamas took over Gaza so easily.

    Israel are there to stay until they feel that Hamas is an irrelevance and the Palestinian Authority is serious about peaceful negotiations. It's up to the Palestinians.

    I tell you now if the Palestinians had a Gandhian revolution and started a peaceful approach Israeli air strikes and incursions would halt and serious talks about the West Bank could begin. It's Hamas and their Allah inspired jihad which is the stumbling block to peace. 

    Israel is acting defensively, if the Palestinian people turned their backs on violence and started focusing on making Gaza a functioning modern state they would soon see that the oppressive military presence in the West Bank ease up but first the Palestinians need to turn their backs on violence.

    They can't beat Israel with violence but they can find peace and a two state solution with a peaceful approach.
  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #3 - January 18, 2009, 09:29 AM

    lol I'm allowed to say that, I'm not a president Tongue

    I'm just fed up of it all...
  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #4 - January 18, 2009, 10:12 AM

    I understand Heatbomb. It is a conflict that would be so easy to resolve if there was no religion fucking it all up  mysmilie_977

  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #5 - January 18, 2009, 10:13 AM

    or tribalism, or...

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #6 - January 18, 2009, 11:05 AM

    ...humans...or....

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #7 - January 18, 2009, 05:25 PM

    ...humans...or....

    We should inflict genocide upon the whole species, that would solve all the problems of our little miserable planet, I guess.

     parrot parrot

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #8 - January 19, 2009, 01:42 AM

    Well when it comes to conspiracy theories one of the worst doing the rounds is the one about the Holocaust being a joint venture between Zionist Jews and the Nazis. The aim of the Holocaust, some on the extreme Right and Left argue, was to generate so much sympathy for the  Jews that the world would support Zionism.

    This is kind of conspiracy is very well subscribe to by Hamas activists.

    The worrying thing is I think they believe in these conspiracies and their cause (a Caliphate) enough to try and emulate what they think the evil Jews did. In these two videos you will see Hamas activists admitting that their policy is to use women and children as human shields sacrificing them to 'generate sympathy' for their cause. They even admit that the Israelis have been making telephone calls to their targets telling them to evacuate the civilians before the attack but instead Hamas are rounding up more and sticking them on the roofs of the buildings about to be bombed.

    So it seems that the mainstream press owes Israel an apology. It's Hamas that is targetting Palestinian women and children when Isreal is trying to avoid these casualties.

    A bloody good plan from Hamas, attack your enemy wait for them to retaliate then get all the women and children in to the target area and wait for the world to cry out in support for Hamas and condemn the evil Jews.

    Now I'm not being a conspiracy theorist, just watch these vids and hear it from the horses mouth.

    Can anyone seriously still think Israel are targeting civilians that Hamas is trying to fight for and protect?

    Those antisemitic protesters crowding the streets of London starting riots and waving Hezbollah and Hamas flags should be ashamed of themselves. 

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y&eurl=http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/01/14/getting-our-heads-round-hamas/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBYtij4Q7sE&eurl=http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/01/14/getting-our-heads-round-hamas/
  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #9 - January 19, 2009, 01:21 PM

    Isn't it hypocritical of muslims to accuse Israel of occupying territory that is not theirs when muslims themselves conquered lands that did not belong to them during the conquests?
  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #10 - January 19, 2009, 01:51 PM

    Isn't it hypocritical of muslims to accuse Israel of occupying territory that is not theirs when muslims themselves conquered lands that did not belong to them during the conquests?


    YES!

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #11 - January 20, 2009, 01:16 AM

    Isn't it hypocritical of muslims to accuse Israel of occupying territory that is not theirs when muslims themselves conquered lands that did not belong to them during the conquests?


    Anti imperialist Western Leftists support Hamas because they see them opposing what the Left sees as Jewish imperialism (Zionism) and American imperialism.

    They don't take into account that Hamas are imperialists who's goal is not a free Palestine but a global caliphate. They do not want to see a viable Palestinian state they just want to oust the Jews and Crusaders from Muslim land and hopefully spread globally and crush all in the name of Islam.

    Add to that historically as you rightfully say all of these lands were conquered and stolen by Muslim armies so the way that Islamists and Lefties bang on about the evils of imperialism screams double standards to me.

    Anyway if the boot was on the other foot would the Jews be allowed to survive if Isreal fell? Would they be given Gaza and live in a occupied West Bank or would they just be murdered in a mass genocide and the few survivors forced to flee or live as dhimmis?

    But of course it's the Jews who are brutal and Hamas are just fighting for freedom and self determination.
  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #12 - January 20, 2009, 06:54 AM


    You are not speaking to intelligent people




    There will be no white flag above our door
  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #13 - January 20, 2009, 07:37 PM

    Israel definately gets a big part of the blame. It is no coincidence this all wrapped up before Obama took office.

    I also think it is ridiculous for them to accuse hamas of hiding behind civilians. Where the hell are they supposed to go? You expect them to go stand in the middle of a field and wait for the bombs? There is 1.5 million people in that tiny strip.

    It's like you throw a guy in a barrel of fish and then when you shoot at him acuse him of hiding behind the fish. Or something like that.

    B015B


    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #14 - January 20, 2009, 11:33 PM

    Israel definately gets a big part of the blame. It is no coincidence this all wrapped up before Obama took office.

    I also think it is ridiculous for them to accuse hamas of hiding behind civilians. Where the hell are they supposed to go? You expect them to go stand in the middle of a field and wait for the bombs? There is 1.5 million people in that tiny strip.

    It's like you throw a guy in a barrel of fish and then when you shoot at him acuse him of hiding behind the fish. Or something like that.

    B015B




    Although your picture disturbs me, I fully agree.  It's a two sided issue... everyone in this mess is responsible for their own actions - Israel included.  It has a lot of blood on its hands.
  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #15 - January 21, 2009, 03:04 AM

    Israel definately gets a big part of the blame. It is no coincidence this all wrapped up before Obama took office.

    I also think it is ridiculous for them to accuse hamas of hiding behind civilians. Where the hell are they supposed to go? You expect them to go stand in the middle of a field and wait for the bombs? There is 1.5 million people in that tiny strip.

    It's like you throw a guy in a barrel of fish and then when you shoot at him acuse him of hiding behind the fish. Or something like that.

    B015B




    Bob on this thread I have posted videos with Hamas officials admitting that Israel makes warning phone calls to the targets so the civilians can be evacuated but Hamas have a policy of rounding up more women and children and sticking them in harms way.

    Case closed!

    Didn't you watch the videos?

    Hamas are putting women and children in to target buildings to garner support and sympathy, Israel are trying to avoid civilian casualties with targeted strikes and warning phone calls.

    Hamas have been provoking Israel ever since they took over Gaza, if Hamas had left Israel alone and stuck to building a mini state in difficult circumstances then there would be no Israeli attacks and the subsequent genocidal policy of using Palestinian women and children as human shields.

    This is all Hamas's doing, they wanted this war and when it kicked off they wanted maximum civilian casualties.

    If it's not Hamas's fault and it's just a bloodthirsty Israeli policy then why has it only been Gaza that has been attacked? 

    If Israel just want to kill Palestinians and didn't care about civilian casualties why isn't the West Bank under bombardment and why isn't the death toll in the multiple thousands.

    All of the evidence points to the fact that this is a minor conflict started by a genocidal Islamofascist movement. The fact that so many are in such extreme opposition to Israeli action is very telling indeed.

    Almost the whole world from the streets of the Islamic world to the streets of London and San Francisco have burst into simultaneous righteous anger and murderous rage and it's all about the antisemitism of the Islamists and the Left.

    If this is not antisemitism please explain why a Gazan death toll of 1000 has deranged and angered so many when a Darfurian death toll of 300,000 barely raises a squeek.

    Lets face it, It's because of who is involved in the conflict and people just can't stand the idea of an American backed Israel defending itself but they can quite easily shrug their shoulders when a rocket or a suicide bomber kills Israeli children.

    "Well they are the American backed Jewish oppressors aren't they, maybe they had it coming"

    I think those who are so willing to condemn Israel might need to check themselves for that black pearl of racist intolerance called antisemitism. It might not be obviously there but I think some very well meaning people carry their own little parcel of antisemitism secreted away somewhere, they just don't know it.

    How else can you explain the apparent willingness to accept Israeli deaths but instant outrage over Palestinian deaths. 

    I can understand in a way someone in the Middle East who has been bought up to see Israel and Jews as demonic being more outraged by the proportionate targeted attacks in Gaza than by a real genocide in Darfur. It is them (world dominating blood drinking Jews) against us fighting over holy land but secular Westerners have no such excuse.

    Yes they have grown up to see America, Britain and Israel as the the causes of all the worlds strife but they have the freedom to look at the evidence and make up their own mind. Something someone in the Muslim world cannot do easily.

    The fact that so many Western liberals can still march on the streets of Western cities waiving Israeli flags with swastikas daubed over them as they march in lockstep with Hamas supporting Islamists chanting "Allahu Akbar" "The Jews are our dogs" screams racism.

    I'm not accusing you of being one of those hysterical protesters Bob but you sure are joining in with the demonisation of Israel by saying that they either target civilians or don't care about civilian casualties.

    They have one of the most advanced armies in history and they have been attacking a very densley populated area against an enemy using human shields and only 1000 people have died.

    Just look at what a genocidal movement can do with machetes alone, 800,000 dead in the Rwandan genocide but one of the most advanced armies in the world is on a bloodthirsty rampage and they only kill 1000?

    Please, it just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

    Remember the Jennin 'massacre'?

    According to Western activists and the Palestinian Authority 500 civilians were massacred and the media was a frenzy of condemnation but it turned out that 56 people where killed and 46 of them were armed. Think about that before you buy into what Left wing activists and the mainstream media are saying about Gaza.

    I think everyone needs to put on their bifocals to see things in perspective then give themselves a good patting down for any hidden pockets of antisemitism or nasty traces of anti Americanism.

    Once things are in perspective and the anti imperialist/antisemite baggage is out of the way perhaps the world can talk about peace in the Middle East, until then it's not only Hamas and the IDF keeping the fires burning.   

  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #16 - January 21, 2009, 03:13 AM

    Israel definately gets a big part of the blame. It is no coincidence this all wrapped up before Obama took office.

    I also think it is ridiculous for them to accuse hamas of hiding behind civilians. Where the hell are they supposed to go? You expect them to go stand in the middle of a field and wait for the bombs? There is 1.5 million people in that tiny strip.

    It's like you throw a guy in a barrel of fish and then when you shoot at him acuse him of hiding behind the fish. Or something like that.

    B015B






    Although your picture disturbs me, I fully agree.  It's a two sided issue... everyone in this mess is responsible for their own actions - Israel included.  It has a lot of blood on its hands.



    Yes Israel have blood on their hands but what nation with so many enemies wouldn't.  Essentially their hand was forced, what other choice did they have? Accept Hamas firing rockets at them?

    Would you be cool with rockets hitting your town? Wouldn't you want your government to take action?

    Or are you a pacifist?

    I tend to find that when people talk about Israeli military action they sound like pacifists "War is not the answer man" "Israel is acting like Hitler man" but if they find themselves in the same boat as the Israelis they come over Ariel Sharon and want to see decisive action taken immediately.

    Ahh the sweet smell of double standards.

  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #17 - January 21, 2009, 04:43 PM

    Quote
    Would you be cool with rockets hitting your town? Wouldn't you want your government to take action?



    Those pathetic little rockets are all Hamas has to respond with against Isreali attacks. Such an attack occured on November 4th. When the world was watching the American elections, the Isrealis snuck in a raid on Gaza, killing 6 Hamas guys. This was a complete violation of the till-then successful ceasefire.

    "the Nov. 4 attack as the main cause of the ceasefire breakdown was implicitly supported by a lengthy report released the following day by the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Centre, a private Israeli group."

    http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=45330


    BfinmadB

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #18 - January 21, 2009, 07:14 PM

    But just supposing those pathetic little rockets had nuclear tipped warheads, courtesy of Iran, rather than play dough, what then?

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #19 - January 21, 2009, 08:13 PM

    Bruce,
    I am not here to defend Hamas. I agree that Hamas is to blame. It is the "not Israel" part that I disagree with.

    SoJo
    The propulsion mechanism of a Qassam rocket lacks the thrust to propel a nuclear tipped warhead. The rocket would not even make it out of the olive grove.

    BTongueB

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #20 - January 21, 2009, 08:44 PM

    I'm not so sure. Explain the mechanics of it to me please.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #21 - January 21, 2009, 10:48 PM

    Israel definately gets a big part of the blame. It is no coincidence this all wrapped up before Obama took office.

    I also think it is ridiculous for them to accuse hamas of hiding behind civilians. Where the hell are they supposed to go? You expect them to go stand in the middle of a field and wait for the bombs? There is 1.5 million people in that tiny strip.

    It's like you throw a guy in a barrel of fish and then when you shoot at him acuse him of hiding behind the fish. Or something like that.

    B015B






    Although your picture disturbs me, I fully agree.  It's a two sided issue... everyone in this mess is responsible for their own actions - Israel included.  It has a lot of blood on its hands.



    Yes Israel have blood on their hands but what nation with so many enemies wouldn't.  Essentially their hand was forced, what other choice did they have? Accept Hamas firing rockets at them?

    Would you be cool with rockets hitting your town? Wouldn't you want your government to take action?

    Or are you a pacifist?

    I tend to find that when people talk about Israeli military action they sound like pacifists "War is not the answer man" "Israel is acting like Hitler man" but if they find themselves in the same boat as the Israelis they come over Ariel Sharon and want to see decisive action taken immediately.

    Ahh the sweet smell of double standards.





    And I tend to find that when people talk about Israel being this poor reluctant war hero, and they're 'good because they're Westernized'... they sound a lot like ethnocentric bigots.

    You might find that if you were ever in the same situation as the Palestinians, having your children killed just because the wire from the TOW missile broke and smashed into your house.... oops.  The Palestinians have legitimate grievances.  Many simply wanted to live in peace, and now don't because the Israeli military policy pushed them too far.    And yes, there are elements of Israelis, in key positions, who aren't interested in peace.  They have a lot of blood on their hands.... innocent blood on their hands... blood that could have been prevented. 


    They respond with massive force, well before other options have been exhausted.Both the Palestinians and Israeli decision makers tend to respond in disproportionate and escalatory ways.    They are both responsible for the current mess.  And it won't be solved until one of the sides starts seeing it from the other side's perspective.

     

  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #22 - January 21, 2009, 11:03 PM

    I'm not so sure. Explain the mechanics of it to me please.


    The Qassam can only carry a small payload, lower than any nuclear warhead it'd be likely to carry. 

    Beyond that, Iran doesn't have nuclear weapons yet.  If it did, they'd keep them on a tight leash.  Perhaps through fear of an Israeli nuclear reprisal on Iran, maybe of them falling into the hands of sunni extremists, maybe for fear of lighting up the third holiest site in Islam. 
  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #23 - January 22, 2009, 04:58 PM

    Qassam 3 (biggest Qassam rocket)
    Length   over 200 cm (6 ft 7 in)
    Diameter   17 cm (6.7 in)
    Weight   90 kg (198 lb)
    Explosives Payload   10 kg (22 lb)
    Maximum Range   10 km (6.2 mi)


    The smallest American nuclear warhead is the W54 weighing about 50 lbs, more than twice what a Qassam could carry
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W54

    Now of course theoretically the Iranians could some day make a nuclear warhead like this and Hamas could make a missile big enough to carry it, and Iran might be stupid enough to give them one, but it only has a 10-20 ton yield. This is enough to just make the Israelis mad. Start using bigger nukes and they have to worry about themselves dieing from the fallout.

    Bpropellor headB


    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #24 - January 22, 2009, 05:49 PM

    Thanks for that. So called 'tactical' was what I had in mind but I see what you mean about the current power:payload gap. And I don't suppose it's an arithmetic base either, so it's probably not surmountable or someone would have solved it by now.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #25 - January 23, 2009, 03:33 AM

    Qassam is not the only rockets out there heh?

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #26 - January 23, 2009, 04:43 AM

    Qassam is not the only rockets out there heh?


    Yeh, there're all kinds, and they've gott 'em too.  If they could get their hands on a nuclear weapon, they could find a way to get it into Israel, rocket or no rocket.  But I think even Hamas are cognizant of the reasons why it's better not to use one on Israel. 
  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #27 - January 23, 2009, 06:27 AM

    Qassam is not the only rockets out there heh?


    Yeh, there're all kinds, and they've gott 'em too.  If they could get their hands on a nuclear weapon, they could find a way to get it into Israel, rocket or no rocket.  But I think even Hamas are cognizant of the reasons why it's better not to use one on Israel. 

    Hamas does not mind sacrificing each and every last Palestinian. They already are.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Why Hamas is to blame not Israel.
     Reply #28 - January 23, 2009, 02:54 PM

    Qassam is not the only rockets out there heh?


    Yeh, there're all kinds, and they've gott 'em too.  If they could get their hands on a nuclear weapon, they could find a way to get it into Israel, rocket or no rocket.  But I think even Hamas are cognizant of the reasons why it's better not to use one on Israel. 

    I am not really sure about that.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Ron Paul on Gaza attacks
     Reply #29 - January 23, 2009, 04:17 PM

    I hope this does not get moved again.  It is relevant to the topic of the Gaza attacks but I suppose you will disregard it.  Well, I'll just do my bit.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z6vMAoFwf4
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