The Atheist Experience is amazing......check it out

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- brucepig
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The Atheist Experience is amazing......check it out
OP - February 07, 2009, 03:18 AM

This is great. I will post more.

Be careful the sound peaks on this, your speakers might pop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJxCFa8YmbQ&feature=PlayList&p=83F1C80BE0C4CCE1&playnext=1&index=27
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Reply #1 - February 07, 2009, 03:49 AM

"Atheists have faith, just like theists."

It's starts with reasoned debate and ends with raw hostility.

"I'm gonna punch your fat head in for Jesus"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs3RKZjSzYg&feature=PlayList&p=32FC398DBDB14692&index=0&playnext=1
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Reply #2 - February 07, 2009, 05:47 AM

I didn't watch the whole thing, but I caught the part where he said he didn't claim absolute knowledge of the truth, and I thought that was commendable. All too often is the case that atheist....'enthusiasts' I suppose, claim proof that there is no God, failing to realize they have as much proof of no God as Christians, Muslims or Hindus have of their God(s).
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Reply #3 - February 07, 2009, 07:32 AM

Well I don't claim absolute certainty that gay alien leprechauns don't exist but it's fair to say that I'm pretty certain that they don't exist.

Would it be dogmatic and extreme of me to say I was 100% certain they didn't exist?

For the purposes of everyday discourse I would say that gay alien leprechauns don't exist but if you really pushed the point I would have to say that I wasn't 100% certain but lets face it you wouldn't push the point because most people agree that gay leprechauns don't exist because there is no evidence for them.

There is no evidence for Yahweh/Allah so I put it on the same level as gay leprechauns, does that make me an atheist fanatic claiming absolute proof?

No, of course not. Atheists don't claim absolute proof they just declare a lack of evidence.

People get confused between absolute certainty and everyday certainty. Most atheists might sound like they are 100% certain but if you pushed the point most would say that they are open to evidence. Even Dawkins and Harris are open to evidence.

It's funny people see it as mirroring fundamentalism when atheists say that the Abrahamic god doesn't exist but if they say that Ganesh or Thor don't exist that's cool but as soon as someone says the Islamic/Judeo Christian god doesn't exist it is treated as if it were an arrogant claim comparable to the arrogance of a fundamentalist believer saying they are certain he does.

I don't see the similarity sorry.
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Re: The Atheist Experience is amazing......check it out
Reply #4 - February 07, 2009, 07:43 AM

Quote from: brucepig on February 07, 2009, 07:32 AM
I would say that gay alien leprechauns don't exist but if you really pushed the point I would have to say that I wasn't 100% certain

Would it be dogmatic and extreme of me to say I was 100% certain they didn't exist?

No, just contradictory. Not a surprise. Know it all's hate having to admit these words - 'Actually, I really don't know.'

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Reply #5 - February 07, 2009, 07:45 AM

Quote
For the purposes of everyday discourse I would say that gay alien leprechauns don't exist but if you really pushed the point I would have to say that I wasn't 100% certain but lets face it you wouldn't push the point because most people agree that gay leprechauns don't exist because there is no evidence for them.

This happy couple are really annoyed with you now....

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Reply #6 - February 07, 2009, 08:09 AM

Quote from: Cheetah on February 07, 2009, 07:45 AM
Quote
For the purposes of everyday discourse I would say that gay alien leprechauns don't exist but if you really pushed the point I would have to say that I wasn't 100% certain but lets face it you wouldn't push the point because most people agree that gay leprechauns don't exist because there is no evidence for them.

This happy couple are really annoyed with you now....

(Clicky for piccy!)

I take it all back
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Reply #7 - February 07, 2009, 10:38 AM

PS: They are terrestrial gay leprechauns, not the alien variety
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Reply #8 - February 07, 2009, 02:24 PM

V good videos Brucepig - this man is obviously a well seasoned debater. He finally explained the difference between a weak atheist & an agnostic for me, which has alway puzzled me.

Apart from the burden of proof argument always used, it is possible to prove that this supernatural being, that by all religious accounts is purported to defy the laws of physics, can exist using these very laws of physics.

Once example is he created mass & energy (earth & sun) from nothing then it is going against the grain of physical laws, which say it cannot be created nor destroyed.

They dont have a choice - if you are 100% sure a religious God exists, then you are forced to accept the basic laws of science as they stand are wrong.

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Reply #9 - February 07, 2009, 02:50 PM

Yes his name is Matt Dilahunty and he trained as a Southern Baptist preacher before he realised it was all crap and decided to do what he is doing now. What a conversion. Manaman knows his Biblical onion rings and can defeat most Bible bashers with their own scripture.
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Reply #10 - February 07, 2009, 03:11 PM

Quote from: brucepig on February 07, 2009, 03:18 AM
This is great. I will post more.

Be careful the sound peaks on this, your speakers might pop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJxCFa8YmbQ&feature=PlayList&p=83F1C80BE0C4CCE1&playnext=1&index=27

Give that man a winners medal....
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Reply #11 - February 08, 2009, 02:20 AM

Quote from: IsLame on February 07, 2009, 02:24 PM
They dont have a choice - if you are 100% sure a religious God exists, then you are forced to accept the basic laws of science as they stand are wrong.

That's not a problem, most theists I know say God is above the laws of science as they are his creation.

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Reply #12 - February 08, 2009, 02:28 AM

Matt Dilahunty deals with another caller I get the feeling he is a Muslim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8mTuAVe-pY&feature=related
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Reply #13 - February 08, 2009, 05:28 AM

Quote from: brucepig on February 07, 2009, 07:32 AM
Well I don't claim absolute certainty that gay alien leprechauns don't exist but it's fair to say that I'm pretty certain that they don't exist.

Would it be dogmatic and extreme of me to say I was 100% certain they didn't exist?

For the purposes of everyday discourse I would say that gay alien leprechauns don't exist but if you really pushed the point I would have to say that I wasn't 100% certain but lets face it you wouldn't push the point because most people agree that gay leprechauns don't exist because there is no evidence for them.

There is no evidence for Yahweh/Allah so I put it on the same level as gay leprechauns, does that make me an atheist fanatic claiming absolute proof?

No, of course not. Atheists don't claim absolute proof they just declare a lack of evidence.

People get confused between absolute certainty and everyday certainty. Most atheists might sound like they are 100% certain but if you pushed the point most would say that they are open to evidence. Even Dawkins and Harris are open to evidence.

It's funny people see it as mirroring fundamentalism when atheists say that the Abrahamic god doesn't exist but if they say that Ganesh or Thor don't exist that's cool but as soon as someone says the Islamic/Judeo Christian god doesn't exist it is treated as if it were an arrogant claim comparable to the arrogance of a fundamentalist believer saying they are certain he does.

I don't see the similarity sorry.

I'm not saying it mirrors 'fundamentalism', and I wasn't talking about Abrahamic gods specifically. Instead I was simply saying that people who assert that there is no god have as much proof of that as people who assert there is one (or many).

I've heard all the arguments before, bringing up examples of magical fairies and loch ness monsters. Those arguments are effective when debating against religions, but do nothing for the assertion that there is no god at all. What they're essentially doing is accepting the religions' definitions of 'god' or creating that definition themselves, only to turn around and debunk it. And they raise valid arguments in doing so.

But leaving that aside, the fact remains that those making the argument don't know what the nature of an actual god might be like. Dawkins and Harris may be open to evidence, but they wouldn't know what that evidence might look like outside the structure of an existing belief system. To say they did would be to again cross into the realm of belief.
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Reply #14 - February 08, 2009, 05:50 AM

I'm not really sure that your reply adds anything to what you first said.

You seem to be saying that it takes as much faith for someone to say there is no god as it does for someone to say there is or that the burden of proof is the same for someone who proclaims an absence of god/gods equal to the burden of proof for someone who proclaims that there is a god/gods.

What I said in my previous post still stands because very few atheists claim absolute certainty, they just say that god/gods are on the same level as pink unicorns and no one asks for proof if you say they don't exist. Ditto for god/gods.....

I don't believe that god exists because there is no evidence for him/her and considering that over the centuries believers have put immense time and energy into proving their imaginary friends existence the fact that they have failed miserably is bloody good evidence to the contrary.

So atheists actually have quite a bit of evidence pointing to how unlikely the claims of the religious are but the religious have nothing positive to put forward apart from anecdotal evidence and scripture.

Anyway the burden of proof is very much on the person who claims something exists not on the person who claims the absence of something..

Nuf said me thinks
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Reply #15 - February 08, 2009, 09:15 AM

Quote from: brucepig on February 08, 2009, 05:50 AM

What I said in my previous post still stands because very few atheists claim absolute certainty,

Except Bruce Pig, naturally, who knows everything.

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Reply #16 - February 08, 2009, 11:27 PM

Quote from: brucepig on February 08, 2009, 05:50 AM
I'm not really sure that your reply adds anything to what you first said.

You seem to be saying that it takes as much faith for someone to say there is no god as it does for someone to say there is or that the burden of proof is the same for someone who proclaims an absence of god/gods equal to the burden of proof for someone who proclaims that there is a god/gods.

No, I didn't say anything about the quantity of faith involved, I made a statement about the quantity of proof involved. Which is 'zero' in both cases by the way.

Quote
What I said in my previous post still stands because very few atheists claim absolute certainty, they just say that god/gods are on the same level as pink unicorns and no one asks for proof if you say they don't exist. Ditto for god/gods.....

Which is why I said it's an effective argument against religions... not against god(s)

Quote
I don't believe that god exists because there is no evidence for him/her and considering that over the centuries believers have put immense time and energy into proving their imaginary friends existence the fact that they have failed miserably is bloody good evidence to the contrary.

And here you're tying your argument to existing religions... essentially allowing them to determine what 'god is' for you. What you're not doing is taking into account that god may exist in a way entirely outside of what those believers thought about their imaginary friends. It may not fit any definition we as a human race have yet come up with. In effect, by dismissing it, you're claiming to know the defining boundaries of something you cannot know.

Quote
Anyway the burden of proof is very much on the person who claims something exists not on the person who claims the absence of something..

Just as the burden of proof is very much on the person who claims that nothing exists, and not on the person who claims simply not to know...
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Reply #17 - February 09, 2009, 02:00 AM

No there is no burden on a person who claims the absence of something.

Also most atheists are talking about the personal god of the monotheists not a deistic god. You are blurring the boundaries of the debate, atheists tend to debate theism not deism.

The very word "atheist" implies an absence of belief in a theistic personal god. Atheist not adeist.

This has nothing to do with gods that don't fit into the theistic personal definition of god who made us, listens to our prayers and interferes in our lives.

I think most atheists would agree that it is much more likely that there are higher intelligences out there, maybe even god like higher intelligences that are beyond our imagination but an anthropomorphic supreme creator who rewards and punishes is what is up for debate not the nebulous, "anything is possible" god of the deists that you are introducing into the debate.

In this instance the personal god of the bible and the koran is on the same level as pixies and unicorns and there is absolutely no burden of proof on the person who claims an absence of pink unicorns. Ditto for Yahweh/Allah
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Reply #18 - February 09, 2009, 09:16 AM

Quote from: brucepig on February 09, 2009, 02:00 AM

I think most atheists would agree that it is much more likely that there are higher intelligences out there, maybe even god like higher intelligences that are beyond our imagination

So it's just other people's traditional 'Gods' that atheists have a problem with, is it? And most atheists are likely to believe in a 'higher intelligence' God? Right okay, I believe you.

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Reply #19 - February 09, 2009, 11:14 AM

Quote from: Jack Torrance on February 09, 2009, 09:16 AM
Quote from: brucepig on February 09, 2009, 02:00 AM

I think most atheists would agree that it is much more likely that there are higher intelligences out there, maybe even god like higher intelligences that are beyond our imagination

So it's just other people's traditional 'Gods' that atheists have a problem with, is it? And most atheists are likely to believe in a 'higher intelligence' God? Right okay, I believe you.

I think the point being made is that using scientific reasoning, and our understanding of the universe, it can be deduced based on the 'picture' we have of galaxies around us, that life would be feasible on quite a number of planetary systems.

This is supposition and not a 'belief'. It is theoretical, not worshipful. It is about further studies and not stagnant unchangeable divine concepts.

That's the difference between scientific research and religion. Atheists are more prone to veer with science than the religious.

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Reply #20 - February 09, 2009, 12:21 PM

The point is atheism is a lack of belief in theistic claims so atheists tend to argue against the personal god of theists not the nebulous and undefined god of deists.

Quite simple really.

PS: You are right Mr G, atheists are free to imagine a myriad of possibilities. The universe is full of potential from super intelligent aliens to god like entities but once again saying these things are a posibility does not put any burden of proof on the person who says such a thing.

Saying there is a personal god who created the universe and interferes in our lives needs proof to back it up and those who say that it doesn't exist have no burden because they are not bringing anything to the table apart from thin air, a total absence.

God is on the same level as unicorns and there is no burden of proof on someone who says unicorns don't exist.......
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Reply #21 - February 09, 2009, 02:16 PM

Quote from: brucepig on February 09, 2009, 12:21 PM
Atheists are free to imagine a myriad of possibilities. The universe is full of potential from super intelligent aliens to god like entities

Evreyone is entitled, end of story - what's the point in shouting louder than anyone else? What are you trying to prove?

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Reply #22 - February 11, 2009, 03:05 AM

Quote from: brucepig on February 09, 2009, 02:00 AM
No there is no burden on a person who claims the absence of something.

Also most atheists are talking about the personal god of the monotheists not a deistic god. You are blurring the boundaries of the debate, atheists tend to debate theism not deism.

The very word "atheist" implies an absence of belief in a theistic personal god. Atheist not adeist.

This has nothing to do with gods that don't fit into the theistic personal definition of god who made us, listens to our prayers and interferes in our lives.

I think most atheists would agree that it is much more likely that there are higher intelligences out there, maybe even god like higher intelligences that are beyond our imagination but an anthropomorphic supreme creator who rewards and punishes is what is up for debate not the nebulous, "anything is possible" god of the deists that you are introducing into the debate.

In this instance the personal god of the bible and the koran is on the same level as pixies and unicorns and there is absolutely no burden of proof on the person who claims an absence of pink unicorns. Ditto for Yahweh/Allah

I admittedly have a very limited experience with the topic of atheism, but usually I go by the colloquial "atheist" - there is no god, "agnostic" - don't know if there's a god or not. It sounds like you're more interested in the field of atheism, and know the more technical aspects of the language. So maybe we're just disagreeing over definition rather than anything substantive.
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