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Theme Changer

 Topic: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal

 (Read 19120 times)
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  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #60 - April 18, 2009, 02:43 PM

    I think Islamic empires behaved like any other empire throughout history.
    it has as much to do with Zionism as your unbelievably dumb and typical mischaracterization of my comments on the cold war as an "american conspiracy"


    Nope, they didn't, even in places which had empires before Islam overran them, previous empires were often much more enlightened, for instance King Cyrus's empire in Iran was far more tolerant of all races & nationalities, than post Islamic Persia, where a Zoroastrian convert to Islam was often given the property of his entire family.

    http://www.farsinet.com/cyrus/

    Since human nature is always the same, regardless of religion, we can always expect some people to act in inhuman ways, regardless of religion, but that certainly doesn't condone inhuman religious teachings, Islamic rulers & Empires, when they were charging jizya from People of the Book or slaughtering polytheists, were walking in Muhammad's footsteps, while those who refrained from doing so were violating Muhammad's teachings.



    It seems every single christian king/army/soldier in history had it wrong then and despite having the most pacifist, loving and cuddly religion, they still took up arms and waged war (both defensive and offensive warfare are anti-christian Im sure you'll agree) killing, raping and enslaving millions upon millions of people throughout the world.

    by the way, religious tolerance is not an indicator of anything. Ghenkis Khan and the monghols were quite tolerant of other religions but that didnt stop them from destroying everything in their path.  The romans were quite tolerant of other religions but they slew millions on their way to consolidating an empire.


    Are you defending islamic teachings by TU QUOQUE here? I thought islam and Muhhamad came to save the world and guide the ignorant. IF Islam taught the same things that these men have been doing since ages like raping, enslaving etc  then what is the difference between these evil men and Muhhamad?

    Shouldnt be there any difference between muhhamad and these men who committed all the evil acts? People who did these acts throughout the history were not final prophets of GOD like Muhhamad. IF muhhamad followed the same set of evils of the society then he becomes an ordinary man and not any messenger of GOD. This is where exactly he should stand out and be differentiated from ordinary men.Sadly for you he fails .


    Why?  war is an accepted concept among most religions and almost all cultures past and present. Wars are bloody and not nice. Where did you get the idea that I consider the old ways evil, I consider them innapropriate for the present day (just as future generations will think some of our current practices and ethics are innapropriate).

    And Mohammed did not participate in the conquests, he consolidated and united the warring tribes of Arabia and died shortly thereafter. Im sorry if this consolidation necessitated military operations, its actually quite difficult to get tribal societies to start working together (see FATA). It was his companions who undertook the conquests after his death.

    Do you seriously consider all conquests "evil acts"? This is how the world as we know was formed, this is why you have an "england" or a "united states of america", you do realize this right? We conquered Canada, without this conquest, I wouldnt be here. If I though this was an evil act, I would move somewhere where no conquest ever took place...like nowhere.

    What Mohammad brought was a set of rules regarding warfare and rules of engagement. These were sometimes followed and sometimes not during war.

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #61 - April 18, 2009, 02:45 PM

    The higher taxes and the "trauma"(apparently non-existent in other cuddlier empires like.....?) are irrelevant to your assertion that the Muslim empires were the bloodiest and most "genocidal"


    They were non existent in Cyrus' empire, most other empires, they didn't discriminate on the basis of religion, infact most often the conqueror adopted the faith of those conquered, & the distinction between the conqueror & the conquered blurred over time in many conquests.



    You are going to have to give me a few example of these non-discriminatory empires first.

    Second, your assertion concerning Islamic empires being the most genocidal and bloody.

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #62 - April 18, 2009, 02:53 PM

    And Mohammed did not participate in the conquests, he consolidated and united the warring tribes of Arabia and died shortly thereafter. Im sorry if this consolidation necessitated military operations, its actually quite difficult to get tribal societies to start working together (see FATA). It was his companions who undertook the conquests after his death.


    Really? What about the Conquest of Mecca?

    Muhammad marched into Mecca, smashed every one of the idolators idols, threatened to slaughter anyone who came out of their homes to protect their idols, chanting, "Truth has come, falsehood disappeared..." & then converted the people to Islam. Naturally, people forcibly converted like this by a "Prophet" wanted to break free as soon as the self declared Prophet died, & apostasy wars broke out after his death, which were ruthlessly suppressed by his followers.

    If today, someone marches into Mecca, smashes the mosques & the kaaba, threatens to kill all Muslims who resist & then convert the Muslims to Christianity\atheism, won't that be forced conversion?

    Muhammad did give rules of warfare, here they are:

    Quran 9:5, "Then when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever you find them-& seize them, besiege them & lie in ambush for them everywhere...
    but if they repent, take to prayer & render the alms levy, allow them to go their way, Allah is forgiving & merciful."

    If they become Muslims, they're allowed to go. How kind...this Prophet.Buddha & Jesus were such sissies! cool2


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #63 - April 18, 2009, 03:03 PM

    Quote from: Arab-Wannabe
    Why?  war is an accepted concept among most religions and almost all cultures past and present. Wars are bloody and not nice. Where did you get the idea that I consider the old ways evil, I consider them innapropriate for the present day (just as future generations will think some of our current practices and ethics are innapropriate).


    Can you tell us the precise date when murdering , rape , enslaving people, looting  became evil? I guess they were not evil according to you back then so you must be able to tell me a date since when these practices started being called as evil.These practices were evil , are evil and will be evil till the end of the world.

    War in self defense is Ok but war to sujugate people into believing into islam is bloody nonsense.

    Btw finally you say that those old ways are inappropriate today so why are you still a muslim then? YOu must accept that Muhhamad wasnt any USWA HASANA or a perfect example for entire mankind to emulate and quran contains outdated teachings which are not applicable today. Are you ready to reject quranic teachings in that case?

    POST EDITED TO ADD THE FOLLOWING

    If the above mentioned things like raping,murdering,stealing  werent evil then why does quran order punishment for rapist, murderers , thiefs etc etc ? It shouldnt if they werent evil back then. right? The point is they were evil back then and yet muhhamad resorted to these things thereby contradicting himself and his fake Allah.

    Quote from: Arab-Wannabe
    And Mohammed did not participate in the conquests, he consolidated and united the warring tribes of Arabia and died shortly thereafter. Im sorry if this consolidation necessitated military operations, its actually quite difficult to get tribal societies to start working together (see FATA). It was his companions who undertook the conquests after his death.


    Muhhamad  started all this shitty thing about islam .The first muslim terrorist was muhhamad and he fought more than 60 wars as per Tabari.With the exception of a few all wars of muhhamad were offensive as most of them were fought on enemies territory. This lone fact should give you a clue that it was muhhamad who was the aggressor and not the enemy and so military operations were carried not to unite people but to conquer and subjugate them .  ITs true that his successors undertook conquest but they were only following orders of quran i.e muhhamads teachings to do that.

    Quote from: Arab-Wannabe
    Do you seriously consider all conquests "evil acts"? This is how the world as we know was formed, this is why you have an "england" or a "united states of america", you do realize this right? We conquered Canada, without this conquest, I wouldnt be here. If I though this was an evil act, I would move somewhere where no conquest ever took place...like nowhere.

    What Mohammad brought was a set of rules regarding warfare and rules of engagement. These were sometimes followed and sometimes not during war.


    Killing people who dont accept your religion is an evil act. If you try to do that today you will be put in jail. IT seems you have totally different sense of morality.
     Fight the infidels until they acknowledge the religion of islam is what quran orders its believers. Self defense is the only accepted form of war. If conquests are ok then you should have no problem kafirs bombing saudi arabia and all islamic countries and converting them forcibly.
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #64 - April 18, 2009, 03:15 PM

    And Mohammed did not participate in the conquests, he consolidated and united the warring tribes of Arabia and died shortly thereafter. Im sorry if this consolidation necessitated military operations, its actually quite difficult to get tribal societies to start working together (see FATA). It was his companions who undertook the conquests after his death.


    Really? What about the Conquest of Mecca?

    Muhammad marched into Mecca, smashed every one of the idolators idols, threatened to slaughter anyone who came out of their homes to protect their idols, chanting, "Truth has come, falsehood disappeared..." & then converted the people to Islam. Naturally, people forcibly converted like this by a "Prophet" wanted to break free as soon as the self declared Prophet died, & apostasy wars broke out after his death, which were ruthlessly suppressed by his followers.

    If today, someone marches into Mecca, smashes the mosques & the kaaba, threatens to kill all Muslims who resist & then convert the Muslims to Christianity\atheism, won't that be forced conversion?



    Are we talking about the international conquest or the conquest of Mecca (for neither of which have you provided proof that they were the most genocidal and bloody in history)?

    Yes, consolidation of tribes meant that tribal identity (often interwoven with religious identity i.e tribe x follows y God) had to be superseded with one common ideology.

    Yes, today we dont forcibly convert people nor do we think its appropriate.

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #65 - April 18, 2009, 03:54 PM

    Are we talking about the international conquest or the conquest of Mecca (for neither of which have you provided proof that they were the most genocidal and bloody in history)?

    Yes, consolidation of tribes meant that tribal identity (often interwoven with religious identity i.e tribe x follows y God) had to be superseded with one common ideology.

    Yes, today we dont forcibly convert people nor do we think its appropriate.


    Muhammad couldn't manage international conquests, but he did set an example for his followers to emulate with whatever forced conversions & conquests he could manage to achieve...

    Muhammad had 11-13 wives, he didn't have thousands, but does that make a polygamist of 11+ wives nobler than one of 1000+ wives?

    Once a gate is left open, it hardly matters how much...

    As for consolidation of tribes, tribes were pretty consolidatedeven prior to Muhammad, inspite of different faiths. Thats' why Khadija's Uncle Waraqa ibn Nawfal & Mo's cousin Ubaydallah ibn Jahsh had both freely converted to Christianity, without any harassments.

    According to Jewish Halacha, anyone whose mother is a Jew is Jewish, well Kaab ibn al Ashraf, who opposed Muhammad was the son of a Jewish mom, pagan dad & freely followed his mother's religion, became the leader of a Jewish tribe & all this was perfectly acceptable.

    As for this being unacceptable today, it wasn't acceptable at any time from the founder of a world religion, who's supposed to be an example for all time.

    Buddha lived more than 1000 years before Muhammad, Jesus more than 500 years before Muhammad, none behaved like Muhammad.

    As I said, they were such sissies,Muhammad was a brave, brave man!

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #66 - April 18, 2009, 04:43 PM

    Are we talking about the international conquest or the conquest of Mecca (for neither of which have you provided proof that they were the most genocidal and bloody in history)?

    Yes, consolidation of tribes meant that tribal identity (often interwoven with religious identity i.e tribe x follows y God) had to be superseded with one common ideology.

    Yes, today we dont forcibly convert people nor do we think its appropriate.


    Muhammad couldn't manage international conquests, but he did set an example for his followers to emulate with whatever forced conversions & conquests he could manage to achieve...

    Muhammad had 11-13 wives, he didn't have thousands, but does that make a polygamist of 11+ wives nobler than one of 1000+ wives?

    Once a gate is left open, it hardly matters how much...

    As for consolidation of tribes, tribes were pretty consolidatedeven prior to Muhammad, inspite of different faiths. Thats' why Khadija's Uncle Waraqa ibn Nawfal & Mo's cousin Ubaydallah ibn Jahsh had both freely converted to Christianity, without any harassments.



    They were not consolidated, tribal warfare and competition was an integral feature of pre-Islamic arabia (raids or razzias, capturing livestock etc.)

    Now, Im waiting for you to show me that Islamic conquests (more appropriately termed regular wars of state) were more bloody or genocidal than anyone else's.

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #67 - April 18, 2009, 04:50 PM

    They were not consolidated, tribal warfare and competition was an integral feature of pre-Islamic arabia (raids or razzias, capturing livestock etc.)



    And post Islamic Arabia, inspite of having been saddled with a common faith by Muhammad, was a hotbed of tribal warfare too!

    Of course, they also set out on conquests, but tribal warfare remained!

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #68 - April 18, 2009, 04:53 PM

    They were not consolidated, tribal warfare and competition was an integral feature of pre-Islamic arabia (raids or razzias, capturing livestock etc.)



    And post Islamic Arabia, inspite of having been saddled with a common faith by Muhammad, was a hotbed of tribal warfare too!

    Of course, they also set out on conquests, but tribal warfare remained!


    Could be, religion is sometimes easily overrided by tribal and ethnic divisions. The example of Afghanistan is but one of many (Tajiks vs Pashtuns vs. etc.)

     

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #69 - April 18, 2009, 05:32 PM

    Could be, religion is sometimes easily overrided by tribal and ethnic divisions. The example of Afghanistan is but one of many (Tajiks vs Pashtuns vs. etc.)
     


    So why do you, or any sane thinking person who's not been brainwashed, respect Muhammad?

    It really doesn't matter if Muhammad's followers were the most genocidal, what matters is they were often brutally genocidal, as a direct consequence of Muhammad's actions, rather than inspite of it.

    Were the Nazis the most genocidal people in all history? I dunno, I doubt they were-infact Alexander the Great's army & Genghiz Khan's army might've been far more genocidal, & killed far more people as a % of the global population of the time.

    But that certainly doesn't excuse Nazi atrocities, & those atrocities were a direct result of Hitler's beliefs & practices.

    The Nazis for example, singled out Jews, scoured Europe for Jews & put them in gas chambers, Alexander the Great & Genghiz Khan didn't target any specific people for extermination.

    Ditto for Muslims, they often singled out idolators, often even other People of the Book, whom they slaughtered as they were unbelievers, which other conquerors didn't do.

    Now if there is a religion called Hitlerism, would it be worthwhile to sign up for it? Would it be sensible to excuse Hitler's conduct by saying that people of those times often harbored anti Semitic views, so Hitler was doing nothing out of the ordinary, he was simply attempting to give the Germans' their prestige back etc?

    Course not, there were many excellent people even in Hitler's time, more worth emulating.

    Same with Muhammad, he behaved in ways which other founders of world religions like the Buddha or Jesus absolutely didn't. He preached hatred towards specific people like idolators & unbelievers, which go against ethical norms of all times, & it makes absolutely no sense to revere him as an "insaan i kamil" or perfect human being when most of his conduct didn't even remotely resemble perfection.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #70 - April 18, 2009, 05:56 PM

    Thats what I said

    This is what you said:

    Quote
    Very interesting, this seems to have happened in most arab countries as well which indicates that the rise of Islamism (or the real, true Islam as some of our friends call it) is directly attributable to political decisions influenced by the cold war and not (as our esteemed friends think) to someone reading this or that hadith.


    You were clearly trying to exonerate Islam from blame with this statement. Who is the liar now?

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #71 - April 18, 2009, 08:55 PM

    Dear Homer,

    I know you have a valid point. However, it is childish to claim --like AW did-- that there would be no global Islamist movement if the anti-communist purges of the Cold War did not happen.

    Thats not what I said, you fucking liar.

    "The personalities you mentioned are crucial but so are the events that led to the spread of their ideas (such as petro-dollar funded wahhabism/super true Islam being spread to the rest of the Islamic world and the west). We also previously mentioned the crushing of socialist progressive groups across the Muslim world and the support by short sighted politicians (such as Sadat) to Islamists."

    Thats what I said



    Thats not what I said, you fucking liar.

    Mind your language, AW!

    NO, Im tired of having this liar deform and miscontrue everything I say.

    Which part are you objecting to, Rashna? There is no ban on expletives here. If it's the word "liar"  then yes, that is difficult to prove. On the other hand, whether is was deliberate or not it appears Zaephon did distort and misconstrue what AW said.

    AW, it is possible that Zaephon simply misread what you posted. People do have different biases and often read things in a hurry. Zaephon, please do not report the same post twice. Once is quite enough, thank you. For the information of anyone who still requires clarification I'll explain how the rules here work in practice.

    This forum deals with a lot of issues that are emotive issues for many people. Consequently we do not expect people to be perfect angels 100% of the time. If someone is generally reasonable but blows their stack occasionally we are not going to smite the hell out of them. This applies to everyone, regardless of their religious or political affiliation. The forum rules are rather loosely worded for practical reasons, so that the staff can take action when it is necessary in their opinions. We are not going to try and tie ourselves down to a meticulously worded set of rules that attempt to cover every possible circumstance. That course leads to insanity because anyone who breaks the spirit of the rules but, arguably, not the letter of them will bleat ad infinitum if censured and tie up masses of time and energy with bollocks no sane person should need explained to them. We are prepared to deal with that if you are prepared to pay us the wages and benefits of Supreme Court judges. Until then it's pay peanuts, get monkeys.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #72 - April 18, 2009, 09:12 PM

    Quote from: osmanthus
    AW, it is possible that Zaephon simply misread what you posted.

    Well, did I really misread this post? I think it is very clear to anyone that AW was trying to exonerate Islam from blame with his post.

    Very interesting, this seems to have happened in most arab countries as well which indicates that the rise of Islamism (or the real, true Islam as some of our friends call it) is directly attributable to political decisions influenced by the cold war and not (as our esteemed friends think) to someone reading this or that hadith.

    Now, AW called me a fucking liar for "misconstruing" this statement as:

    However, it is childish to claim --like AW did-- that there would be no global Islamist movement if the anti-communist purges of the Cold War did not happen.

    I prefer reporting posts to replying in similar language. What's so wrong with that?

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #73 - April 18, 2009, 09:32 PM

    Nothing is wrong with reporting a post. I just said that it is not necessary to report the same post twice.

    Ok, so it's over to AW. The other part of his post that you have just quoted makes it seem like your post was a fair assessment of what he said. How about someone link people to the full post so we can make up our own minds if we missed it earlier? 

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #74 - April 19, 2009, 02:55 AM

    Which part are you objecting to, Rashna? There is no ban on expletives here. If it's the word "liar"  then yes, that is difficult to prove. On the other hand, whether is was deliberate or not it appears Zaephon did distort and misconstrue what AW said.


    Oh thats' allright then.  Smiley

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #75 - April 19, 2009, 07:18 PM

    Quote from: osmanthus
    AW, it is possible that Zaephon simply misread what you posted.

    Well, did I really misread this post? I think it is very clear to anyone that AW was trying to exonerate Islam from blame with his post.

    Very interesting, this seems to have happened in most arab countries as well which indicates that the rise of Islamism (or the real, true Islam as some of our friends call it) is directly attributable to political decisions influenced by the cold war and not (as our esteemed friends think) to someone reading this or that hadith.

    Now, AW called me a fucking liar for "misconstruing" this statement as:

    However, it is childish to claim --like AW did-- that there would be no global Islamist movement if the anti-communist purges of the Cold War did not happen.

    I prefer reporting posts to replying in similar language. What's so wrong with that?


    You are la iar because I said the policies of the cold war, which include the anti-communist purges but also dozens of other short-sighted policies (such as funding extremist groups, support for Islamist countries at the expense of others etc., dessemination of extremist literature by various agencies including western ones etc.). In typical fashion, you have distorted my argument first by misrepresenting it as "an american conspiracy" and then by reducing it to "anti-communist purges" as if I claimed that those were the only factors.

     

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #76 - April 19, 2009, 08:40 PM

    Wow, what an utterly horrible misrepresentation that was.  Roll Eyes

    Yes, there were other related policies of course, but they were all related to the suppression of communism in one way or another. Don't be petty. The essence of your post remains unchanged: that the rise of global Islamism has nothing to do with the reeking evils of Islamic scripture. I refuted this stupid apology, Homer agreed with me, but you are still throwing a tantrum.

    Then again, I can always call you a coward for avoiding threads where you fail to defend your arguments, cannot I? But I really understand you. It is not easy to accept that the man you worship was a genocidal pedophile, or that a truly merciful Allah would not punish innocent infidels for eternity in her Jahannam, let alone ordering their oppression and destruction.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #77 - April 19, 2009, 09:16 PM

    Wow, what an utterly horrible misrepresentation that was.  Roll Eyes



    Of course it was, but that is your specialty after all. Here's the first one on the same thread

    AW: "Very interesting, this seems to have happened in most arab countries as well which indicates that the rise of Islamism (or the real, true Islam as some of our friends call it) is directly attributable to political decisions influenced by the cold war and not (as our esteemed friends think) to someone reading this or that hadith."

    LIAR: "Yes, it's all an evil American conspiracy, isn't it? Mohammad was definitely not a pedophile warlord, was he now?"

    These movements would have been contained or eradicated had it not been for the short sighted policies of the cold war. All these were marginal and heavily suppressed before state involvement.

    Where do you think the Taliban came from? you think they just popped out of nowhere?

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #78 - April 19, 2009, 09:42 PM

    Another brain-killing reply from an intellectual coward, who is too afraid to discuss his taboos, i.e. the pedophilia of Mohammad, yet rails against anyone who comes to the conclusion that Islam is evil.

    Quote from: Arab-Wannabe
    LIAR: "Yes, it's all an evil American conspiracy, isn't it? Mohammad was definitely not a pedophile warlord, was he now?"

    Why didn't you quote the rest of my statement, cowardly liar? This is what I also said in the same post, which you conveniently omitted, and which was the essential part:

    Quote from: Zaephon
    Was Islam created by the West? Was there Islamic persecutions and genocides before the Cold War, or not? And finally, even if we are to accept Western collaboration, how would the rise of true Islam be possible without intellectual vacuums like Necmettin Erbakan, Hasan al-Banna, Sayyid Qutb, and their bloodthirsty minions? If the Quran never called for violence against the House of War, would such a global, oppressive movement ever arise?

    After all, all the Islamists had to do was to return to the primitive teachings of a genocidal pedophile bandit.


    Now, I am aware that with all this petty and obscurantist nonsense, you are trying to evade one critical point. You tried to exonerate Islam from the blame, suggesting that Islamism is a result of American foreign policy concerning the Cold War period. Saying that Islamic scripture is guiltless in the rise of political Islam is like saying that racist doctrines were not involved in the crimes of Nazi Germany.

    Quote
    Where do you think the Taliban came from? you think they just popped out of nowhere?

    They popped out of Islam, coward. Understand? They tried to enforce Islam as is written down in the Islamic scripture. If Islam did not exist, there would be no Taliban. If Mohammad did not "reveal" verses about the inferiority of women, Taliban would not treat Afghan women like chattel slaves. Do you get this? It's very simple.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #79 - April 19, 2009, 09:49 PM



    Now, I am aware that with all this petty and obscurantist nonsense, you are trying to evade one critical point. You tried to exonerate Islam from the blame, suggesting that Islamism is a result of American foreign policy concerning the Cold War period. Saying that Islamic scripture is guiltless in the rise of political Islam is like saying that racist doctrines were not involved in the crimes of Nazi Germany.

    [/quote]

    No Liar, I said Cold war policies (which include USSR policies by the way) Liar

    I didnt say Islamic scripture was guiltless, Liar, I said the Rise of Islamism is directly attributable to cold war policies, Liar.

    Have a good night, Liar.

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #80 - April 19, 2009, 10:04 PM

    You messed up your HTML tags.  Cheesy

    Now, let's see:

    1. You refuse to discuss your taboos, which is a sign of intellectual weakness and cowardice, i.e. Mohammad's pedophilia.
    2. You cherry-pick arguments, omitting important parts if necessary, i.e. the example demonstrated in my previous post
    3. You use personal insults when cornered, which shows just how mature you are, i.e. your consistent use of the word "liar"
    4. You try to summon petty rhetorical differences to your aid, i.e. attacking the phrase "anti-communist purges" which is obviously a summary of what happened in Islamic lands as relevant to our discussion.
    5. You miscontrue your opponent's posts, and build strawmen out of them. Tell me what this post is supposed to mean, and how it isn't a crass, silly, and irrelevant mischaracterisation of a simple, rational question:

    Quote
    Or else.... rape, genocide, pedo, blood, bloodthirsty, headbutt, decapitation, cross-dressing, warlord, evil, dripping, super pedo, bloodcult.


    Quote from: Arab-Wannabe
    I didnt say Islamic scripture was guiltless, Liar,

    I beg to differ. This is what you've said:

    "Very interesting, this seems to have happened in most arab countries as well which indicates that the rise of Islamism (or the real, true Islam as some of our friends call it) is directly attributable to political decisions influenced by the cold war and not (as our esteemed friends think) to someone reading this or that hadith."

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #81 - April 20, 2009, 08:45 AM

    Attack the posts, not the posters. Notice the plurals. This is a friendly reminder to both of you.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #82 - April 20, 2009, 05:49 PM

    Here's a recent editorial from the Dawn newspaper, it may be a sign that Pakistani media is waking up.

    What the Taliban ideology means Dawn Editorial
    Sunday, 19 Apr, 2009 | 08:44 AM PST | The footage recently made public showing the flogging of a girl in Swat district must have sickened anyone with respect for human rights and dignity. ? Reuters/File Photo The footage recently made public showing the flogging of a girl in Swat and the execution of a man and woman in their 40s reportedly in the Hangu district must have sickened anyone with respect for human rights and dignity. As such, these videos constitute a graphic reminder of the fact that behind the rhetoric of religion, the real face of the Taliban is one of unmixed brutality and murderousness.

    This should come as no surprise. Since the rise of the Taliban in Afghanistan during the 1990s and in Pakistan more recently, there has been ample evidence that the otherwise harmless moniker ? which means ?students? ? is a mask worn by an ideologically united group that uses tactics of violence, fear and gross coercion to get its way.

    Given this, it is alarming that Pakistan?s state and society continue to bury their heads in the sand and resort to denial of either specific acts of brutality or the threat in general posed by the Taliban. The most recent example of this approach is an investigation team?s conclusion that the video depicting the whipping of the young woman in Swat was ?fake and false?, as indicated by Interior Secretary Kamal Shah.

    He quoted the final report as saying that that no such incident took place since the girl in question denied it and the area?s residents also expressed their ignorance. Yet anyone who has suffered such an act of barbarity, and who continues to live under the shadow of his or her persecutors, is unlikely to risk inducing their ire further. More dangerous, however, is the reduction of the issue to a debate over whether or not the video was ?real? and when exactly the incident took place.

    This constitutes yet another example of the manner in which the Pakistani state and its citizenry live in denial of the clear and present danger to their personal freedoms. It is precisely this attitude that has allowed the Taliban and others of their ilk to make such deep inroads. Even if this particular video was faked, there is ample evidence otherwise of the Taliban?s brutality. Reports of beheadings, shootings and the coercion of people ? who are citizens of Pakistan and residents of Swat ? are made public practically everyday.

    For the survival of values pertaining to freedom, democracy and citizens? rights, the threat posed by the Taliban must be combated not only militarily but also by taking up positions on the ideological battleground from where they fire the salvos. For this to happen, the grotesqueness of the Taliban worldview must first be recognised and then rejected wholesale.

    The Swati girl?s ordeal sparked outrage across the country; but such graphic footage ought not to be necessary to convince the citizenry of the Taliban?s real face. Living in denial is a luxury that is no longer available to us.

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #83 - April 20, 2009, 06:05 PM

    You messed up your HTML tags.  Cheesy

    Now, let's see:

    1. You refuse to discuss your taboos, which is a sign of intellectual weakness and cowardice, i.e. Mohammad's pedophilia.
    2. You cherry-pick arguments, omitting important parts if necessary, i.e. the example demonstrated in my previous post
    3. You use personal insults when cornered, which shows just how mature you are, i.e. your consistent use of the word "liar"
    4. You try to summon petty rhetorical differences to your aid, i.e. attacking the phrase "anti-communist purges" which is obviously a summary of what happened in Islamic lands as relevant to our discussion.
    5. You miscontrue your opponent's posts, and build strawmen out of them. Tell me what this post is supposed to mean, and how it isn't a crass, silly, and irrelevant mischaracterisation of a simple, rational question:

    Quote
    Or else.... rape, genocide, pedo, blood, bloodthirsty, headbutt, decapitation, cross-dressing, warlord, evil, dripping, super pedo, bloodcult.


    Quote from: Arab-Wannabe
    I didnt say Islamic scripture was guiltless, Liar,

    I beg to differ. This is what you've said:

    "Very interesting, this seems to have happened in most arab countries as well which indicates that the rise of Islamism (or the real, true Islam as some of our friends call it) is directly attributable to political decisions influenced by the cold war and not (as our esteemed friends think) to someone reading this or that hadith."


    One more time

    1) the rise of Islamism is directly attributable to cold war policies

    2) The rise of Islamism is not directly attributable to Islamic scriptures

    This is not to say that Islamic scriptures are "guiltless" as you put it. In my opinion, these are indirectly related or indirectly correlated with the rise of Islamism. That is to say there is little causality in my opinion. This is also the opinion of many respected experts/analysts on the subject (Jason Burke, Gilles Keppel, Olivier Roy and a host of others). I do not subscribe to the reductionist approach of explaining everything through Islamic scriptures. This is in my opinion extremely simplistic and reductionist and increasingly carries with it a very dangerous anti-muslim agenda. Those who subscribe to this particular theory (and have this agenda) are such individuals as Robert Spencer (and most of his readers), Ali Sina (and most of his readers), serge trikofik, Andrew bostom, hugh ftizgerald, Lawrence Auster etc..

    this is not to say that those who claim Islam is guilty of the rise of Islamism (or the rise of Islam or whatever..) are necessarily anti-Muslim, but starkly those that are, are becoming the majority.

    ** You'll also note that I do not believe Islamism or extremism to be the one true Islam. **

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #84 - April 20, 2009, 06:29 PM

    There are at least a couple of jihads going on currently which have nothing to do with the Cold war, the first of those is going on in Southern Thailand while the other jihad is happening in Philippines

    There are of course quite a few other non Cold War jihads, but I'm restricting myself to these two here.

    The word jihad has been used 199  times in the most Sahih Hadith collection, Bukhari & its used all the time for "holy armed war". The participants in Thailand & Philippines uprisings don't describe themselves as Marxist Leninist or Nationalist, they call themselves "mujahideen" & other Islamist names.

    Avoiding or ignoring these unpleasant facts & remaining deliberately obtuse might be mentally peaceful, but it won't make these issues disappear, not from Islamic Scriptures or Muhammad's conduct which is the ideal for all Muslims, & certainly not from our world.




    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #85 - April 20, 2009, 06:47 PM

    There are at least a couple of jihads going on currently which have nothing to do with the Cold war, the first of those is going on in Southern Thailand while the other jihad is happening in Philippines




    You'll also note that many of the cadres of these movements have undergone training (including ideological) in Afghanistan during soviet times.

    The milf sent hundreds of men to Afghanistan (was against the soviet union) as did the extremist Abu Sayaf for instance:

    The Abu Sayyaf Group (literally ?Bearer of the Sword?), a fundamentalist organization was founded in1989 and was originally named Mujahideen Commando Freedom Fighters (MCFF), due to its link with the Mujahideen movement in Afghanistan. The majority of the group?s members are Muslim youths, with many of the older cadres reportedly veterans of the Afghan war. The Abu Sayyaf does not only want to establish a separate Islamic state governed by the Shari?a. The group also wants this state to be exclusive for Muslims. The Abu Sayyaf does not practice religious tolerance towards non-Muslims. The activities of the group are terrorist in nature and are tied to the integrated effort among Muslim fundamentalists in asserting the dominance of Islam in global politics. The Abu Sayyaf Group received international attention when they abducted and hostaged some foreigners in Sipadan, Malaysia.


    source:  http://www.army.mil.ph/OG5_articles/Insegencies.htm



    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #86 - April 20, 2009, 06:50 PM

    There are at least a couple of jihads going on currently which have nothing to do with the Cold war, the first of those is going on in Southern Thailand while the other jihad is happening in Philippines

    The word jihad has been used 199  times in the most Sahih Hadith collection, Bukhari & its used all the time for "holy armed war". The participants in Thailand & Philippines uprisings don't describe themselves as Marxist Leninist or Nationalist, they call themselves "mujahideen" & other Islamist names.



    It also helps if you want funding from the Gulf (they won't support Nationalist struggles). If you look at the first Chechen war all the slogans were nationalistic. a few years later, with the arrival of ideologues, foreign fighters and lots of money, it all of a sudden became Islamic.

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #87 - April 20, 2009, 06:58 PM

    It also helps if you want funding from the Gulf (they won't support Nationalist struggles). If you look at the first Chechen war all the slogans were nationalistic. a few years later, with the arrival of ideologues, foreign fighters and lots of money, it all of a sudden became Islamic.


    Oh the Chechens have been mollified, at least temporarily, they've introduced new laws supporting honor killings & compulsory veilings, & hey presto!


    Their nationalistic urges for a separate nation seems diminished, now that their Islamist urges are fulfilled! yes

    Its not what we're overlooking but what you're desperately trying to avoid or ignore- the violence in the Quran, hadiths & Prophet Muhammad's sayings & actions-which can provide tremendous impetus to Islamism!

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #88 - April 20, 2009, 07:17 PM

    It also helps if you want funding from the Gulf (they won't support Nationalist struggles). If you look at the first Chechen war all the slogans were nationalistic. a few years later, with the arrival of ideologues, foreign fighters and lots of money, it all of a sudden became Islamic.


    Oh the Chechens have been mollified, at least temporarily, they've introduced new laws supporting honor killings & compulsory veilings, & hey presto!


    Their nationalistic urges for a separate nation seems diminished, now that their Islamist urges are fulfilled! yes

    Its not what we're overlooking but what you're desperately trying to avoid or ignore- the violence in the Quran, hadiths & Prophet Muhammad's sayings & actions-which can provide tremendous impetus to Islamism!


    Well thats different, I never claimed that certain passages or sayings cannot be used as an ideological basis for waging war etc..

    What I said is that the rise of Islamism is directly attributable to the policies of the cold war. What we're seeing now is a direct result of these policies (as well as a host of other factors) and it has taken a life of its own. Even now, it cannot survive without some form of state sponsorship. Even in the 1990s when the coffers were overflowing, it couldnt take power anywhere in the world except in Afghanistan with the help of a state.

    What I oppose is the reductionism so close to your heart which naturally leads people to say things like "the islamic conquests were the most genocidal and bloody"....without evidence because it must have been so.  Conversely, I dont believe in looking at phenomena in isolation, context for one is very important.

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Pakistan - Taliban - Shariah Deal
     Reply #89 - April 20, 2009, 07:37 PM

    Well thats different, I never claimed that certain passages or sayings cannot be used as an ideological basis for waging war etc..

    What I said is that the rise of Islamism is directly attributable to the policies of the cold war. What we're seeing now is a direct result of these policies (as well as a host of other factors) and it has taken a life of its own. Even now, it cannot survive without some form of state sponsorship. Even in the 1990s when the coffers were overflowing, it couldnt take power anywhere in the world except in Afghanistan with the help of a state.

    What I oppose is the reductionism so close to your heart which naturally leads people to say things like "the islamic conquests were the most genocidal and bloody"....without evidence because it must have been so.  Conversely, I dont believe in looking at phenomena in isolation, context for one is very important.


    I'm sure no person knowledgeable on the topic would disagree that the Cold War played an important part in the present day situation.  But how do you know that it is more responsible than Islamic ideology?  Or maybe some other factor?
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