It seems your argument contains a very strong contradiction: "the problem is the interpretation and believing in something 100% without question."
See, you are talking about Two very different people. The interpreters, and the followers.
Let's just assume you are talking about some people who will follow certain interpretations 100%, which is I think what you really mean.
No, the contradiction is caused by misunderstanding what was written. I was talking about 2 different problems, those that interpret negatively, as opposed to in a positive fashion. The others are those that do not question what they read/are told and therefore follow suit blindly.
k, perhaps an 'or' instead of the 'and' but that's just my training as a programmer mindfudging with me.
So people are interpreting the doctrine in their hand to best suit their needs. But what is new? What is different than any other ideology? Doctrines' raison-d'etre is to be interpreted to suit people's need.
No, when it comes to religion, the raison d'etre is to suit Gods need.
Hmm, accepting that god either does not exist, either does not care about religion X from Y from Z, then your statement is not very useful to me. Suits who's need?
All religions and all doctrines, will be interpreted to suit people's need. Smarter and more educated and more famous people will have more influential interpretations then your average pawn or ponce. But everyone will interpret what he/she is presented to the best of their ability, to suit their needs.
That is actually a major issue within islam. The lack of good/useful stuff compatible with our 20th+ Century sensibility. I wish there was some good stories or good subjects in the koran. Then it would have been easier to direct the muslim to the good stuff and compare the koran itself between good and bad. But I can not do this. Same with Muhammad. I wish there was some good deeds the guy did. So I can tell a muslim: Look, on that day muhammad was good, on that day muhammad was different. But I can not do this. I do not know of a day when muhammad was 'good'. It really sucks, not being able to find good stuff. It really makes my job of criticizing islam that much harder.
Very biased. There is a lot of good stuff in the quran. In fact most of the bad stuff is directed solely at none believers. Have you not come across any good stuff related to charity, family, children, parents etc.
As far as Good Subjects go, I am not at all happy with the charity, family, children and or parents.
The koran has 6200+ verses, less then 1% is for doing good to humanity and then another 1% is for doing good to muslims. However in the other 99% of the book is enough ammunition to counter and obliterate the goodness of those 2%.
Worse, the 2% are not that good or enlightened or useful.
For example, on the subject of Parents: Muhammad is always more loved then your parents, setting the kid to be a religious cop against his family which comes Second, with all the negativity such a role will wreck.
Orphans: So little and few good verses in the koran, yet Five are 'spent' on the orphans. When I read those verses, I keep imagining the picture of Bush or Canada's Stephen Harper taking a picture beside a baby, to make themselves look more humane and they are not. To make it worse, on the subject of orphans, Muhammad prohibited adoption so he can get away with something, not very kosher with the quite young wife of his ex-adopted son.
Charity: Reduced the customer charity of the time from 10% to 2.5%. Also the concept of using charity to pay for sin does not lead to a fair society. Sure today, a rich person can hire better lawyers, but at least that is a fault of the system, not an enshrined command.
Unfortunately for me, I can go on. You can read some good verse here and there, but when you try to come up with a complete subject, some matter or subject that the koran handles and support with verses, the koran will always fall short.
You might not be aware of this, but I have a request (often misconstrued as a challenge), for people to give me a good subject from the koran. I need good subjects in the koran. It is integral for my criticism of the koran to have some good subjects from the koran. Without good subjects, I will always be accused of being biased, even by Brucepig.
So please, if you have a couple of good subjects from the koran, give them to me. Even if you are not sure, give them to me and tell me you are not sure. I will research them. Give me anything, that the koran is anti-fascism, anti-communism, anti-monopoly, honorable, good for old women, good for young women, good for unmarried women, good for married women, good for young men, good for old men, good for business, etc.. Anything, One or Two good subjects is all I ask for now.
Admittedly Islam has got more to answer for as it has not been formally adapted for the modern era yet, but that is primarly because Christianity for the moment exists is the developed world. If Islam existed in Europe under the same conditions, then I have no doubt it would have modernised and left Christians feeling like the underdogs and conversely fighting to rid the world of evil Islam via similar means such as terrorism.
That is a very wide jump. Basically you are implying that beliefs are pretty much inconsequential. You might as well replace the religions you mention with budhism and hinduism.
I am quite happy to replace Christians with Budhists and Hindus in the example I gave - any minority with a sense of injustice is perfectly capable of fighting when they feel vulnerable and oppressed.
Non-Sequitur. You stated that if islam was placed under the same conditions as Christianity in Europe, then islam would have reacted the same way. Then your answer to me, was about minority and injustice. Two very unrelated points. I guess you can Either rewrite the opening statement, either re-explain it for me, either rewrite the answer.
You are making an assumption that it does not matter what religion the west had, all and any religion the west would have had, would have reformed and ended up giving us the developed world.
Yes, I think any religion is capable of reforming, as most Muslims globally have. If you take a look at the percentage of muslims who follow the Quran the way you describe it and you will see what I mean.
Globally, muslims are become more radicalized, in their own countries as well as immigration destinations. Also globally, muslims who move away from the koran, which I agree with you is the majority of muslims, are falling into the traps of the hadith.
In reality I have only actually known of a handful of muslims who thought that way, and in practice it was all talk and hyperbole & amounted to very little anyway. How many Muslims have you heard have been killed for apostacy, yet it is supposedly clear in the Quran that they all should be murdered.
A bit of non-sequitur on your part. I never stated my concern with islam is just the apostate-killer. It is also the man who thinks he can hit his wife and divorce her with 1 word. Also the man who thinks apostates should not be killed, yet would be more then happy to turn their lives into hell.
Religion can only slow human progress, it can never reverse it over a sustained period of time. Beliefs are not inconsequential but they adapt according to the times albeit at different rates, but they still do and always will.
Destruction through adaptation.
I have no problem with reforming islam. In fact that is my stated goal. However I do not think that islam will survive its reform. I think islam will be destroyed when it reforms. I also think it is a fallacy to believe that every organism has the right to survive its evolution.
The only right any organism has, is to evolve. Surviving the evolution is a privilege that most organisms did not get.
I also accept that we both agree that islam should be reform and accept that whatever happens after the reform is of no consequence to you or me. I would call it a win-win situation. If we end up with a reformed and thriving islam, we win. If we end up with a reformed and destroyed islam, we still win.
Cheers,
~ Edited to fix quote tags ~
Topic: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!