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Theme Changer

 Topic: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!

 (Read 44274 times)
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  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #90 - February 27, 2009, 03:32 PM
    Quote from: awais on February 27, 2009, 04:33 AM
    Gawd it's exausting trying to read that. Such flowery language, praising Allah and the prophet too much. Just say what you're going to say! Gawd. Roll Eyes

    Thanks for the links tho. Good lookin' out!  Afro

    ===========

    Simply the story of a Jewish man/woman throwing garbage in front of Mu's home has no references in Islam.
    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #91 - February 27, 2009, 03:33 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on February 27, 2009, 02:59 PM

    Did you get an answer?  Its not about it sleeping on his pillow, but on something he was wearing.  Because he didnt want to disturb it, he decided to cut his sleeve/or part of the clothing off ..

    ============

    Not yet, good that you reminded me.
    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #92 - February 27, 2009, 03:34 PM
    I have come across this allegation in several websites, but they all fail to locate it in any Hadith source. One source indicates that Ali was the cat-guy, not Mohammad. The closest hadiths are referred to in this webpage:

    http://www.muttaqun.com/cats.html

    In typical PC attitude, Wikipedia mentions the same story in this Muezza article, but fails to locate it in the Hadith:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muezza

    Ironically, this Wikipedia page and the Muslim Heritage website refer to each other. Famous charlatan and dhimmi Karen Armstrong also referred to this fable at some point, apparently.

    Quote from: Rashna
    Turkish Nobel Laureate Orhan Pamuk mentions this story in his book "My Name is Red."

    I read that book but I don't remember it, do you? You must have quite the memory.
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #93 - February 27, 2009, 04:12 PM
    I was just about to write the same thing as I must have discovered it at the same time as you.  I think its shocking!

    Every place I have looked quotes this cat story, without a source, even Wiki!  Wiki points the source as another website, when you look at this source it quotes the source as Wiki.  AAArgghh!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muezza

    I am very disappointed about this, as this was one of the only 2 examples I remembered from childhood as examples of the prophet at his best.  However I was conned.  The other turned out to be a fake too.

    I wonder where this story came from, as it is a hugely popular and recycled myth that now has Wikipedia as its source.  This should not happen, and wiki should have procedures to prevent this from happening, otherwise how many others will continue to be sold this story?

    Wiki is often happily referenced by those at this site, and was very convenient, but this one example proves wiki's lack of reliability.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #94 - February 27, 2009, 04:22 PM
    Hahahaha lol

    A circle of deciet. Wikipedia in effect citing itself.

    What should we write on the tombstone of intellectualism?
    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #95 - February 27, 2009, 05:03 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on February 27, 2009, 04:24 PM
    You're similar to me, I found it very hard to live the life of a lie and better to face the consequences as a result. 

    I  now look back at that time as the second start of my life, where my life choices were defined by my personality and thoughts, and not those of others. 

    Not only have you explained your set of beliefs, but also that you are an independent person with independent thoughts.  I hope they treat you with more respect as a result, but only time will tell.

    Has your mum mentioned the hitting incident, or been remotely sheepish about it and how are you both treating each other now?  Are you close to your brother, what are his views on religion and this whole issue? 


    Check it out now. 

    It annoyed me so much that I have changed it, with the following :-

    "However this story is a fallacy, as there are no references in the Quran or Hadith to this story. "

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muezza

    It only took 2 minutes to do, didnt even require a password or email address

    Ha!
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #96 - February 27, 2009, 05:11 PM
    You messed up the HTML tags, though. Also, Wikipedia is heavily regulated, and some Muslim will revert the page back to its old form eventually. Wikipedia activism requires constant effort.

    Check this out:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Muezza
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #97 - February 27, 2009, 05:33 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on February 24, 2009, 07:12 AM
    I'm afraid I can't find the hadith or Quran reference to that story about woman\man throwing garbage on Prophet Muhammad after extensive search All Muslim sites say is that it is a tradition, but don't mention from where. Funny how Muslims refuse to accept many sordid stuff which the Prophet is believed to have done, claiming they're from unreliable hadiths. 001_tongue



    I just decided to boast a li'l bit, if you don't mind. I was the first person to do a search for this hadith about the Jewish woman who supposedly threw garbage & voiced my suspicion that it was a  False hadith. so I deserve some credit for enlightening you all! Wink
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #98 - February 27, 2009, 05:35 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on February 27, 2009, 05:33 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on February 24, 2009, 07:12 AM
    I'm afraid I can't find the hadith or Quran reference to that story about woman\man throwing garbage on Prophet Muhammad after extensive search All Muslim sites say is that it is a tradition, but don't mention from where. Funny how Muslims refuse to accept many sordid stuff which the Prophet is believed to have done, claiming they're from unreliable hadiths. 001_tongue



    I just decided to boast a li'l bit, if you don't mind. I was the first person to do a search for this hadith about the Jewish woman who supposedly threw garbage & voiced my suspicion that it was a  False hadith. so I deserve some credit for enlightening you all! Wink




    That was a false hadith?

    Dayyum! That was the hadith that I based my compassion and love for mankind on when I was a kid.

    Sheeet.

    Oh well, those days are gone.
    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #99 - February 27, 2009, 05:36 PM
    Quote from: Rashna
    I just decided to boast a li'l bit, if you don't mind.

    We love you, cool lass. Now it'd be awesome if you could refute the cat story, too...
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #100 - February 27, 2009, 05:40 PM
    Good work Rashna for bringing it to our attention, and Emerald for putting the nail in the coffin. 
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #101 - February 28, 2009, 07:43 AM
    Quote from: Rashna on February 27, 2009, 05:33 PM
    I just decided to boast a li'l bit, if you don't mind. I was the first person to do a search for this hadith about the Jewish woman who supposedly threw garbage & voiced my suspicion that it was a  False hadith. so I deserve some credit for enlightening you all! Wink

    =============

    You rock, Rashna  bunny

     Afro
    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #102 - February 28, 2009, 09:16 AM
    Fuck if it's made up. That's kind of Islam I believed in, and we should want muslims to believe in, if they're going to believe. Muhammad the merciful, rahmat lil'alameen, who only fought out of defense and just retaliation. That's the sunnah to follow. Tongue
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #103 - February 28, 2009, 10:16 AM
    Quote from: awais on February 28, 2009, 09:16 AM
    Fuck if it's made up. That's kind of Islam I believed in, and we should want muslims to believe in, if they're going to believe. Muhammad the merciful, rahmat lil'alameen, who only fought out of defense and just retaliation. That's the sunnah to follow. Tongue


    Unfortunately, it is made up, awais, in fact not only is it made up but plagiarized from Bahai sources. We don't know anything about Muhammad's life other than some legitimate age old sources, and only those sources can be legitimate sunnah. I think that the stories in the sunnah unfortunately have little stuff which can set a good precedent to Muslims' living in a modern multicultural, multi faith, gender equal world, and loads which can act as barriers for Muslims to do so. Yet truth is truth, even if truth hurts. We can't obliterate the truth by plagiarizing from 19 th century religious faiths' like the Bahai faith, can we? Ought we?

    What will Muslims be plagiarizing from next? We know Islamic nations were some of the last to ban slavery, now should Muslims be encouraged to plagiarize from Abraham Lincoln's life to prove that Muhammad fought to free all slaves? Wink

    Truths dagger sometimes hurts, hurts real bad Hopefully truth's dagger will cut through the censorship & conspiracy theories permeating through the present Muslim ummah and enable Muslims to look at Muhammad's life & actions as they're stated in the original sunnah-the good, the bad & the ugly and make an honest re evaluation of their beliefs. Hope they won't be Chicken when taking a long hard look at their faiths in the future, nor  Shooter others who either leave the faith or seek to expose its bad bits.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #104 - February 28, 2009, 11:42 AM
     Afro

    And the fact that even if they can accept the peaceful make-believe, their friends, family or next generation might end up disgruntled and start believing in the radical, true, version of it..
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #105 - February 28, 2009, 08:29 PM
    That's what has happened recently. "Islam" has become more in tune with Salafi ideals than it was in the fairly recent past. Of course this is largely because the Salafis can back their arguments with the relevant texts. Moderates have a lot of difficulty making good, substantiated countering points. They end up having to rely on their humanity rather than being "Islamically correct". 
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #106 - March 01, 2009, 11:32 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 28, 2009, 08:29 PM
    That's what has happened recently. "Islam" has become more in tune with Salafi ideals than it was in the fairly recent past. Of course this is largely because the Salafis can back their arguments with the relevant texts. Moderates have a lot of difficulty making good, substantiated countering points. They end up having to rely on their humanity rather than being "Islamically correct". 


    Exactly

    Any form of "moderate Islam" has no substance and no basis. All "moderates" are either closet apostates or self decievers.
    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #107 - March 01, 2009, 12:20 PM
    Tongue poo on you, fuck all that. I believe in moderate Islam. I was an orthodox moderate muslim. Islam is what muslims make of it. Outsiders have no place in defining what Islam is or should be to it's adherents. Want to? Then join the club. Put up or shut up.
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #108 - March 01, 2009, 12:22 PM
    That's like saying an outsider has no right to say that FGM is wrong.  Roll Eyes
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #109 - March 01, 2009, 12:25 PM
    Quote from: awais on March 01, 2009, 12:20 PM
    Tongue poo on you, fuck all that. I believe in moderate Islam. I was an orthodox moderate muslim. Islam is what muslims make of it. Outsiders have no place in defining what Islam is or should be to it's adherents. Want to? Then join the club. Put up or shut up.


    Outsiders?

    I was born a Muslim, more of a Muslim than you and for longer. Who here is the outsider?

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #110 - March 01, 2009, 12:53 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on March 01, 2009, 12:25 PM
    Quote from: awais on March 01, 2009, 12:20 PM
    Tongue poo on you, fuck all that. I believe in moderate Islam. I was an orthodox moderate muslim. Islam is what muslims make of it. Outsiders have no place in defining what Islam is or should be to it's adherents. Want to? Then join the club. Put up or shut up.

    Outsiders?

    I was born a Muslim, more of a Muslim than you and for longer. Who here is the outsider?

    Yeah? Fuck that. You're not muslim anymore now are you? So, that makes you an outsider. Islam is not in your form, ethnicity, length of time in it, who your mom or dad is or was, none of that shit. "more of a muslim than you", "The best of you in the sight of Allah is he who has the most taqwa, and only Allah knows the contents of the hearts".

    Quote from: BerberElla on March 01, 2009, 12:22 PM
    That's like saying an outsider has no right to say that FGM is wrong.  Roll Eyes

    No it's not. They can say it all they want. What I'm saying is an outsider cannot define and restrict Islam.

    I keep saying islamophobes and jihadis/takfiris should team up, they have the same definition of Islam, and who is and who isn't muslim!
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #111 - March 01, 2009, 12:58 PM
    Quote from: awais on March 01, 2009, 12:53 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on March 01, 2009, 12:25 PM
    Quote from: awais on March 01, 2009, 12:20 PM
    Tongue poo on you, fuck all that. I believe in moderate Islam. I was an orthodox moderate muslim. Islam is what muslims make of it. Outsiders have no place in defining what Islam is or should be to it's adherents. Want to? Then join the club. Put up or shut up.

    Outsiders?

    I was born a Muslim, more of a Muslim than you and for longer. Who here is the outsider?

    Yeah? Fuck that. You're not muslim anymore now are you? So, that makes you an outsider. Islam is not in your form, ethnicity, length of time in it, who your mom or dad is or was, none of that shit. "more of a muslim than you", "The best of you in the sight of Allah is he who has the most taqwa, and only Allah knows the contents of the hearts".

    Quote from: BerberElla on March 01, 2009, 12:22 PM
    That's like saying an outsider has no right to say that FGM is wrong.  Roll Eyes

    No it's not. They can say it all they want. What I'm saying is an outsider cannot define and restrict Islam.

    I keep saying islamophobes and jihadis/takfiris should team up, they have the same definition of Islam, and who is and who isn't muslim!



    OK sir, so if I (as an ex-Muslim) am an outsider, doesn't that make you an outsider?

    If you are also an outsider, how can you claim that there is a "moderate" Islam? As you are indeed an outsider.

    Ousted by your own silly reasoning

    Anyway, BerberElla is right, if you were part of a violent religion and you didn't want others to know, you wouldn't proclaim it as a violent religion, and if others couldn't look into the matter, what happens  to the truth? Obviously Muslims will try and tell us that their religion is holy, pure, from the one God, and non-violent. They are Muslims! That's what they believe! Should we accept it as truth because we are outsiders?

    "We should just listen to Muslims and take their words for it because it's their religion".

    You are an awful hypocrite. I don't know why you are so defensive of a crappy system you used to be part of.

    And by the way, it shouldn't take 20 minutes to make a comment that consists of a few lines.
    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #112 - March 01, 2009, 12:58 PM
    Quote
    No it's not. They can say it all they want. What I'm saying is an outsider cannot define and restrict Islam.


    Yes they can, that's how change happens.

    What is the geneva convention except on outsiders restriction and definition of what consitutes human rights?  isn't it thanks to outsider intervention that slavery is outlawed in all muslim countries, saudi being the last to adhere to it (on the surface), or the fact that muslims countries have had to set age restrictions on marriage?

    That is due to outsiders.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #113 - March 01, 2009, 01:12 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on March 01, 2009, 12:58 PM
    And by the way, it shouldn't take 20 minutes to make a comment that consists of a few lines.

    Because I kept writing things like 'go fuck yourself' and such, debating whether I should leave it in or not Tongue.

    Truth is relative. If I as a muslim believe Islam is a religion of peace, and practice it like a religion of peace (not doing any 'taqiyyah' Roll Eyes) then it is a religion of peace. Fuck anyone who says otherwise.

    How can I claim there is a moderate Islam, now being an outsider? Because I practiced it, and have friends who still do.

    I am defensive of muslims as human beings more than I am of Islam. Muslims make Islam. Without Muslims, there is no Islam. Just as there is no Manicheanism or what have you today, because there are no followers to define it.

    Quote from: BerberElla on March 01, 2009, 12:58 PM
    Quote
    No it's not. They can say it all they want. What I'm saying is an outsider cannot define and restrict Islam.


    Yes they can, that's how change happens. ...That is due to outsiders.

    Muslims adopted these things because they wanted to, not because someone said because 'this is how islam is'.
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #114 - March 01, 2009, 01:17 PM
    Quote from: awais on March 01, 2009, 01:12 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on March 01, 2009, 12:58 PM
    And by the way, it shouldn't take 20 minutes to make a comment that consists of a few lines.

    Because I kept writing things like 'go fuck yourself' and such, debating whether I should leave it in or not Tongue.

    Truth is relative. If I as a muslim believe Islam is a religion of peace, and practice it like a religion of peace (not doing any 'taqiyyah' Roll Eyes) then it is a religion of peace. Fuck anyone who says otherwise.

    How can I claim there is a moderate Islam, now being an outsider? Because I practiced it, and have friends who still do.

    I am defensive of muslims as human beings more than I am of Islam. Muslims make Islam. Without Muslims, there is no Islam. Just as there is no Manicheanism or what have you today, because there are no followers to define it.

    Quote from: BerberElla on March 01, 2009, 12:58 PM
    Quote
    No it's not. They can say it all they want. What I'm saying is an outsider cannot define and restrict Islam.


    Yes they can, that's how change happens. ...That is due to outsiders.

    Muslims adopted these things because they wanted to, not because someone said because 'this is how islam is'.


    You should just say what you want, I don't intend on "reporting" anyone.

    You're right, truth is relative in that way. But if I as an Ex Muslim said that I used to practice Salafism, Sufi inspired orthodoxism, reformism and Godknows what else, and that I found Salafi and other extremist thoughts to be closest to the authentic sources, than I am right, "fuck anyone who says otherwise". That way, it's your word against mine.

    As I told you before, there is a moderate Islam but it's based on nothing,  absolutely nothing. Made up ahadith interspliced with rational attitudes and the goodness that is in us all. That's all I am saying

    And you can be defensive of Muslims all you like, but you seem to take critisicsm of the religion as a personal insult and as something offensive.
    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #115 - March 01, 2009, 01:28 PM
    Fuck if I am taking it personal. " moderate Islam but it's based on nothing", "extremist thoughts to be closest to the authentic sources".

    The salafis I know oppose terrorists and terrorism vehemently, and I believe they're closest to authentic sources! "Read!"
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #116 - March 01, 2009, 01:32 PM
    Quote from: awais on March 01, 2009, 01:28 PM
    Fuck if I am taking it personal. " moderate Islam but it's based on nothing", "extremist thoughts to be closest to the authentic sources".

    The salafis I know oppose terrorists and terrorism vehemently, and I believe they're closest to authentic sources! "Read!"



    Did I say anything about "terrorism" or "terrorists"? I didn't say Osama bin laden is the leader of most Muslims

    Incidentally, the terrorism they oppose is Al Qaeda etc, but that doesn't mean they oppose terrorism. What about Muhammad's terrorism? What about Saudi Arabia's terrorism?

    So please, don't try to paint a nice picture of Salafis if there is nothing to paint.
    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #117 - March 01, 2009, 01:52 PM
    Moderate Islam is just pipe-dreams. Turkey is being destroyed by it right now.
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #118 - March 01, 2009, 01:53 PM
    Quote from: Zaephon on March 01, 2009, 01:52 PM
    Moderate Islam is just pipe-dreams. Turkey is being destroyed by it right now.


    You're not allowed to say that because you aren't a moderate Muslim (!)

     Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Ex-Muslim Liberals, Please Wait a Minute!!
     Reply #119 - March 01, 2009, 02:22 PM
    Quote from: awais on March 01, 2009, 01:12 PM


    Truth is relative. If I as a muslim believe Islam is a religion of peace, and practice it like a religion of peace (not doing any 'taqiyyah' Roll Eyes) then it is a religion of peace. Fuck anyone who says otherwise.


    2 + 2 = 5, if I say it is so then that is what it is, fuck anyone who tries to say different.

    Quote

    How can I claim there is a moderate Islam, now being an outsider? Because I practiced it, and have friends who still do.


    Hypocritical statement awais, why is your right as an ex practiser anymore important than finallyfrees rights to criticise as an ex muslim?

    Sheesh, do you have any idea how you sound right now?


    Quote

    Quote from: BerberElla on March 01, 2009, 12:58 PM
    Quote
    No it's not. They can say it all they want. What I'm saying is an outsider cannot define and restrict Islam.


    Yes they can, that's how change happens. ...That is due to outsiders.

    Muslims adopted these things because they wanted to, not because someone said because 'this is how islam is'.


    Oh please.  Yep yep, it's got nothing to do with outside influences.  Roll Eyes
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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