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 Topic: Why can't we criticize Islam?

 (Read 9893 times)
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  • Why can't we criticize Islam?
     OP - February 23, 2009, 03:17 PM
    First to clarify, I personally dont believe in any of religion. I do not think Islam is worse than other religions. And if Muslims are happy and contented with their religion, I am no one to comment and I feel different people have different Islam.

    However, I am concerned with the 'opposition to Islamic Criticism coming from other religious people, who have never been Muslims or Ex Muslims.'

    I understand there are many muslims who are decent and good human beings. However, Islam was always a political movement and not just personal spiritual comfort. And, as a political movement it has never been good to people belonging to other religions. the above mentioned muslims have so much become used to theocracy aspect of Islam that they fail to criticize it, rather they idealized it. And the picture is completely different if you see with the eyes of say a coptic Christian or a Malaysian Hindu. And those people might be religious but that does not invalidate the inhuman aspects of Islam (which do exist) that they had to suffer.

    Here, if Islam is criticized by Non-ex-Muslims or non Atheists, their credibility or motives are questioned, why? If a Muslim come here from boards like Ummah.com and try to explain you Islam is correct, will she/he be questioned about intentions?

    Yes, we obviously dont want to be a hate board, but why to get paranoid over criticism of Islam? Here, it is mpore easy to criticize Christianity than Islam.
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #1 - February 23, 2009, 03:23 PM
    Quote from: Calm on February 23, 2009, 03:17 PM
    Here, if Islam is criticized by Non-ex-Muslims or non Atheists, their credibility or motives are questioned, why? If a Muslim come here from boards like Ummah.com and try to explain you Islam is correct, will she/he be questioned about intentions?

    I think it's a case of pot calling the kettle black,  although this usually only applies to the Abrahamic faiths on this board.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #2 - February 23, 2009, 03:29 PM
    Yes, Peruvian all theologies can be equally criticized. But on political level, Christianity have greatly reformed itself. There are nut-cases especially in US but on an average level, life of a Christian in Muslim coutry at present is much more worse tha life of a Muslim in Non Muslim countries in present time. And Muslim coutries are last to talk about secularism. So, just because they are religious, their points do not become automatically invalid.
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #3 - February 23, 2009, 03:37 PM
    I agree with you Calm, I do see this is one of the fatal flaws of this forum. Someone here recently summed it up fairly well:

    Quote
    I dont see a problem with being Islamaphobe, provided you are Mormonophobe, Christianaphobe and Religionaphobe in general.


    I think it's probably because of the strongly atheist/"agnostic" view of most people here. Personally I am not an atheist, I still believe in (a) God and that there is more to life than what we see, but I don't belong to an organised religion either. I don't think it should be a requirement to attack all religions equally if we are to attack Islam. I think many of us can see that Islam is set out as an (evil-violent-political-oppressive etc) religion and therefore we should be able to question it on it's own merits. I would go around questioning the Westboro baptist church and Scientology as other evil religions, but these threats are miniscule, when the time comes that Scientologists number 1.2 billion than I will  be the first to attack them.

    Also, another small problem as you highlighted is the view of "outsiders", IE people who have never been Muslims. This is disgusting, very intolerant and it only has adverse effects. I understand that the founders of this forum might have had a bad time on FFI with never-been-Muslims being ignorant and out of their depth (I wasn't there, I can't judge), but that doesn't mean people who have never been Muslim can't assess the situation and judge as well. A lot of the time it is those who have never been Muslims who come up with the most well-informed and least bias arguements I have seen, therefore they contribute a lot.

    We shouldn't have this kind of closed minded treatment on a forum like this.
    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #4 - February 23, 2009, 04:51 PM
    Great posts by FinallyFree and Calm. If the functionality existed to give you 5 stars I would.  Afro
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #5 - February 23, 2009, 05:11 PM
    Quote from: Calm on February 23, 2009, 03:29 PM
    So, just because they are religious, their points do not become automatically invalid.

    ==========

    I agree,

    I've learned abt Islam from Christians and their sites more than I did from Muslims,


    many 'ppl of the book' know about Islam more than some Muslims do, so even tho their intentions might not be clear, one can learn a lot from them.
    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #6 - February 23, 2009, 06:11 PM
    Quote from: Calm
    Here, if Islam is criticized by Non-ex-Muslims or non Atheists, their credibility or motives are questioned, why? If a Muslim come here from boards like Ummah.com and try to explain you Islam is correct, will she/he be questioned about intentions?

    I agree completely. It is despicable to instigate witch-hunts about people who are not strictly from a Muslim background or who do not happen to be ex-Muslims. Nothing should prevent us from criticing any religion or ideology in this forum, especially Islam.

    +1  Afro
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #7 - February 23, 2009, 10:41 PM
    No one is holding up irriligious people for criticizing Islam, so take it easy - in fact that is what this forum is about. 

    It is those non-exmuslims who follow a religion without predjudice and are highly critical of Islam, but will not accept any fault in their own religions.  It is this mentality that turns Islam into the evil monster that they see.

    They are just as bad as the ignorant Muslims as I have come across - I find it irritating and highly hypocritical - and that was what was being argued.  Sparky was a great example, and you can see the debate that ensued in the Religion & God section.

    The quote finallyfree gave was from one of my comments, which I still stand by

    Quote
    I dont see a problem with being Islamaphobe, provided you are Mormonophobe, Christianaphobe and Religionaphobe in general.


    Quote from: FinallyFree on February 23, 2009, 03:37 PM
    I would go around questioning the Westboro baptist church and Scientology as other evil religions, but these threats are miniscule, when the time comes that Scientologists number 1.2 billion than I will  be the first to attack them.


    So the only real issue you have with Islam over Scientology is the number of believers?

    I think it can come across as quite unjust when other religious devotees attack Islam, (let me reiterate NOT  irriligious people), and remain just as blindly indoctrinated by their own bull.

    I sometimes find certain aspects of Mormonisism as equally contentious as Islam, and if I we come across a Mormon spouting of anti-Islamic rhetoric on this site then I will be equally annoyed.

    If Islam is the only problem, then I am happy to compare good Muslims with bad Christians?

    The biggest problem is blind belief in religious ideology, and you can see examples of this whenever you open mindedly look across all religious spectrums. 
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #8 - February 23, 2009, 11:11 PM
    Quote from: Calm on February 23, 2009, 03:17 PM
    First to clarify, I personally dont believe in any of religion. I do not think Islam is worse than other religions. And if Muslims are happy and contented with their religion, I am no one to comment and I feel different people have different Islam.

    However, I am concerned with the 'opposition to Islamic Criticism coming from other religious people, who have never been Muslims or Ex Muslims.'

    I understand there are many muslims who are decent and good human beings. However, Islam was always a political movement and not just personal spiritual comfort. And, as a political movement it has never been good to people belonging to other religions. the above mentioned muslims have so much become used to theocracy aspect of Islam that they fail to criticize it, rather they idealized it. And the picture is completely different if you see with the eyes of say a coptic Christian or a Malaysian Hindu. And those people might be religious but that does not invalidate the inhuman aspects of Islam (which do exist) that they had to suffer.

    Here, if Islam is criticized by Non-ex-Muslims or non Atheists, their credibility or motives are questioned, why? If a Muslim come here from boards like Ummah.com and try to explain you Islam is correct, will she/he be questioned about intentions?

    Yes, we obviously dont want to be a hate board, but why to get paranoid over criticism of Islam? Here, it is mpore easy to criticize Christianity than Islam.


    mainly because there is more than just criticism going on online against islam... and we're very sick of the hate.

    surely there is reason enough to criticize RELIGION on philosophical and scientific grounds, but to single out islam with the claim that it is somehow more violent than others, to abuse religious figures and generally to vent one's hatred against an entire way of life of other people, is loathsome.

    There is no end of places to go and criticize islam... and many people do that, not even knowing the difference between criticism and out and out hatred, because these are usually either ignorants or kids....

    we like it here because we can be ourselves without losing our unique and respectful dissent against islam, in a virtual sea of islamophobes... after all, would YOU like to be seen as another person from FFI? We certainly don't. This is us. Hello... how are you?
    TRASH - The Rationalist Apostate Society for Humanity!

    Take a look for a few laughs and thoughtful discussions with a wide range of audience - fellow apostates, Muslims, sufis, non-Muslims, Christians, etc

    http://thetrashbin.wordpress.com
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #9 - February 24, 2009, 12:30 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on February 23, 2009, 10:41 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on February 23, 2009, 03:37 PM
    I would go around questioning the Westboro baptist church and Scientology as other evil religions, but these threats are miniscule, when the time comes that Scientologists number 1.2 billion than I will  be the first to attack them.


    So the only real issue you have with Islam over Scientology is the number of believers?

    Makes perfect sense doesn't it? We don't spend much time attacking Nazism either, because Nazism is widely accepted as being a plain bad ideology and the number of adherents has dwindled to a tiny fringe.

    If there was a resurgence of Nazi feeling, certainly we need to go on the attack... Until then, it's a matter of prioritizing.

    Quote from: IsLame on February 23, 2009, 10:41 PM
    I think it can come across as quite unjust when other religious devotees attack Islam, (let me reiterate NOT  irriligious people), and remain just as blindly indoctrinated by their own bull.

    I sometimes find certain aspects of Mormonisism as equally contentious as Islam, and if I we come across a Mormon spouting of anti-Islamic rhetoric on this site then I will be equally annoyed.

    If Islam is the only problem, then I am happy to compare good Muslims with bad Christians?

    The biggest problem is blind belief in religious ideology, and you can see examples of this whenever you open mindedly look across all religious spectrums. 

    I disagree; some beliefs are easily proven false, but the majority of religious doctrine is esoteric and very difficult to falsify. IMO it's only worthwhile trying to falsify supernatural beliefs if they cause tangible harm and suffering to people.

    Blind faith alone doesn't cost human lives unless it's faith in someone or something bad.
    "It may happen that the enemies of Islam may consider it expedient not to take any action against Islam, if Islam leaves them alone in their geographical boundaries... But Islam cannot agree to this unless they submit to its authority by paying Jizyah"

    -Sayyid Qutb, Milestones
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #10 - February 24, 2009, 05:51 AM
    Quote from: Zaephon on February 23, 2009, 06:11 PM
    Quote from: Calm
    Here, if Islam is criticized by Non-ex-Muslims or non Atheists, their credibility or motives are questioned, why? If a Muslim come here from boards like Ummah.com and try to explain you Islam is correct, will she/he be questioned about intentions?

    I agree completely. It is despicable to instigate witch-hunts about people who are not strictly from a Muslim background or who do not happen to be ex-Muslims. Nothing should prevent us from criticing any religion or ideology in this forum, especially Islam.

    +1  Afro


    As far as I can tell no one on this forum objects to non muslims criticising Islam.

    The only people who have tried that with me is Jack Torrance and A_G.

    Jack implied that my motives for being on an ex muslim site when I'm not an ex muslim and I have pig in my name were racist. But lets face it he rarely says anything very intelligent.

    A_G fires off accusations of racism that he can't back up so often it is just a joke.

    So I disagree, on this forum at least all comers are welcome but I know that isn't the case in the wider world where it really is considered by many to be racist to criticise the ideology of Islam.
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #11 - February 24, 2009, 06:10 AM
    Quote from: Calm on February 23, 2009, 03:17 PM

    Here, if Islam is criticized by Non-ex-Muslims or non Atheists, their credibility or motives are questioned, why? If a Muslim come here from boards like Ummah.com and try to explain you Islam is correct, will she/he be questioned about intentions?

    Yes, we obviously dont want to be a hate board, but why to get paranoid over criticism of Islam? Here, it is more easy to criticize Christianity than Islam.


    If a Muslim came here from Ummah.com, I assure he or she is in for an extremely difficult time!For that matter, even ex Muslims like abdalwali have been criticised by people like Baal or even me, when he claimed that Islam brought about equality. King Tut and his different avatars, were all criticised mercilessly & as for Ummah.com  Muslims, if they were to have a debate like the one between Sparky and the rest of us, he would be torn to bits. Perhaps thats' why not that many Ummah.com people have arrived here, its only people like Diotima or sparky.

    As for getting paranoid, its perfectly allright to criticise anything, and the fact that in many Muslim nations, apostasy and criticism can cost your life plus many nations have been victims of Islamic terrorism, is an important reason why Non Muslims perhaps feel the need to criticise, or even rant about Islam.There are forums like Jihad Watch, Dhimmi Watch, FFI and others for people to do that.

    But every forum has its own tone, its own set of unwritten principles. This forum for instance, is not about ex Muslim converts to Christianity but primarily about ex Muslim converts to non belief, and about other non believers.

    Sure practising Christians are very welcome, but their criticisms are often hypocritical. For instance speaklow said this on the topic, "Ex Muslim liberals..."


    I believe a bit of humility is in order as for many here who converted to Islam let's not forget that by your own choice you became a member of the most racist and vile religion on the planet. Of course we can feel sorry for you upto a point but eventually everyone is responsible for their own actions.


    Why should ex Muslims demonstrate "humility" simply for being born into or choosig to convert into a particular faith? Its a choice every human being has a right to make. And what "actions" have these ex Muslims committed for which reason others should feel sympathy for them, and they should feel guilty? All they did was convert to a faith and then apostasise, a choice millions of humans on this planet make.

    As for whether its easier to criticise Christianity than Islam here or not, let the Muslim Shaneequa from Iran come, who believes that a war between Jews and Muslims is neccessary to bring on the Mahdi, and then see all of us criticise in full force.  banana dance

    But he\she doesn't come, perhaps for fear of criticism. Sigh! sad

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #12 - February 24, 2009, 07:52 AM
    Quote
    If a Muslim came here from Ummah.com, I assure he or she is in for an extremely difficult time!For that matter, even ex Muslims like abdalwali have been criticised by people like Baal or even me, when he claimed that Islam brought about equality. King Tut and his different avatars, were all criticised mercilessly & as for Ummah.com  Muslims, if they were to have a debate like the one between Sparky and the rest of us, he would be torn to bits. Perhaps thats' why not that many Ummah.com people have arrived here, its only people like Diotima or sparky.


    No, I would dispute that.  A muslim member wouldn't be torn apart if he came here to debate, he would just be disagreed with, same as plenty of other people are. 

    The reason Ummah muslims don't come here is quite simple - its an apostates site, they don't want to talk to apostates online, they want the company of fellow muslims.  Its more comfortable for Christians to debate with ex-muslims, and probly more comfortable for muslims to debate with ex-Christians,  because their religion is not the one being criticised head on. 
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #13 - February 24, 2009, 08:08 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on February 24, 2009, 07:52 AM

    No, I would dispute that.  A muslim member wouldn't be torn apart if he came here to debate, he would just be disagreed with, same as plenty of other people are. 

    The reason Ummah muslims don't come here is quite simple - its an apostates site, they don't want to talk to apostates online, they want the company of fellow muslims.  Its more comfortable for Christians to debate with ex-muslims, and probly more comfortable for muslims to debate with ex-Christians,  because their religion is not the one being criticised head on. 


    Well, it depends on the kind of person coming I guess. I've lurked in this forum before, and I think a Goldie who's a practicing Muslim was treated differently from one of King Tut's avatar called "Defender of Islam".

    I agree with your point about the comfort level in debates, however, I don't feel many ex Christians would exactly be delighted if a Muslim started ranting about how bad Christianity is compared to Islam, at least if they're knowledgable about Islam.

    Then those ex Christians would probably start attacking Islam, and the same holds true for many ex Muslims who debate Christianity.

    However, its not fair to bar others from criticising Islam, whatever their religion.
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #14 - February 24, 2009, 08:23 AM
    Quote
    Well, it depends on the kind of person coming I guess. I've lurked in this forum before, and I think a Goldie who's a practicing Muslim was treated differently from one of King Tut's avatar called "Defender of Islam".


    Tut's multi nicks were treated "differently" because Tutsie was trolling, ie, deliberately setting out to wind people up.  So no surprise that those who didn't realise who it was got wound up, and those who did thought it was hilarious and took the piss. 

    The reception given to a troll is not representative of the reaction a genuine muslim could expect to get if he came here, the reception Goldie got is. 
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #15 - February 24, 2009, 09:26 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on February 24, 2009, 08:23 AM
    The reception given to a troll is not representative of the reaction a genuine muslim could expect to get if he came here, the reception Goldie got is. 


    Agreed, got what you're saying.  015 I still think a Ummah.com Muslim like Shaneequa will be ridiculed & criticised, just like Shaneequa is. They don't come, they aren't mocked.
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #16 - February 24, 2009, 11:48 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on February 23, 2009, 10:41 PM
    No one is holding up irriligious people for criticizing Islam, so take it easy - in fact that is what this forum is about. 

    It is those non-exmuslims who follow a religion without predjudice and are highly critical of Islam, but will not accept any fault in their own religions.  It is this mentality that turns Islam into the evil monster that they see.

    They are just as bad as the ignorant Muslims as I have come across - I find it irritating and highly hypocritical - and that was what was being argued.  Sparky was a great example, and you can see the debate that ensued in the Religion & God section.

    The quote finallyfree gave was from one of my comments, which I still stand by

    Quote
    I dont see a problem with being Islamaphobe, provided you are Mormonophobe, Christianaphobe and Religionaphobe in general.


    Quote from: FinallyFree on February 23, 2009, 03:37 PM
    I would go around questioning the Westboro baptist church and Scientology as other evil religions, but these threats are miniscule, when the time comes that Scientologists number 1.2 billion than I will  be the first to attack them.


    So the only real issue you have with Islam over Scientology is the number of believers?

    I think it can come across as quite unjust when other religious devotees attack Islam, (let me reiterate NOT  irriligious people), and remain just as blindly indoctrinated by their own bull.

    I sometimes find certain aspects of Mormonisism as equally contentious as Islam, and if I we come across a Mormon spouting of anti-Islamic rhetoric on this site then I will be equally annoyed.

    If Islam is the only problem, then I am happy to compare good Muslims with bad Christians?

    The biggest problem is blind belief in religious ideology, and you can see examples of this whenever you open mindedly look across all religious spectrums. 



    Sure it sounds good on paper that only those blind to their own inconsistencies are critisized but that's not what happens on the Forum. I have seen it myself in action, anyone who remotely expresses belief or a tie with a non-Islamic religion (mainly Christianity) is instantly an outsider and may no longer critisize Islam. I'm not accusing you personally of anything but a lot of people here do push forward with such hate.

    Of course it's not the only issue I have with Islam, there are a lot of issues, but the only reason I bother is because of the number of believers! That's a pretty stupid question especially coming from someone of your calibre. Number of believers (of a dangerous ideology like Islam, Nazism, Fred Phelpsism, Communism) is directly proportionate to how dangerous the religion is to society, if there were 10 Muslims I wouldn't care. Oh, and no other religion is inherently dangerous in the way Islam is so to me no other religion is worth the bother,this is another shortcoming of this site, since you are all so militantly atheist you see all religions as equal. It's sad really that ex-Muslims can't get past this and can't accept allies from other faiths who are aware of Islam (without questioning them thoroughly on their own beliefs).

    By the way, all faith when it boils down to it is blind, there is no proven faith, otherwise we'd all be following that faith. So blind following doesn't matter. I know a lot of the so called "blind followers" of Christianity, not one of them would ever be a militant or Jihadi or even support such activities.

    Please, wake up and smell the horse shit.
    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #17 - February 24, 2009, 01:36 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on February 24, 2009, 11:48 AM
    Sure it sounds good on paper that only those blind to their own inconsistencies are critisized but that's not what happens on the Forum. I have seen it myself in action, anyone who remotely expresses belief or a tie with a non-Islamic religion (mainly Christianity) is instantly an outsider and may no longer critisize Islam. I'm not accusing you personally of anything but a lot of people here do push forward with such hate.

     
    The caveat you missed is failing to see any problem with their own belief, and accepting the vitriole in their religion. 

    When this happens then they would get treated by me with the same degree of annoyance as a Muslim.  In effect they are the same and had they been born in Islam then they would be Muslims and not on this website criticising Islam, but in a mosque doing their salat.  Do you still not get my point?

    Quote from: FinallyFree on February 24, 2009, 11:48 AM
    Of course it's not the only issue I have with Islam, there are a lot of issues, but the only reason I bother is because of the number of believers! That's a pretty stupid question especially coming from someone of your calibre. Number of believers (of a dangerous ideology like Islam, Nazism, Fred Phelpsism, Communism) is directly proportionate to how dangerous the religion is to society, if there were 10 Muslims I wouldn't care. Oh, and no other religion is inherently dangerous in the way Islam is so to me no other religion is worth the bother,this is another shortcoming of this site, since you are all so militantly atheist you see all religions as equal. It's sad really that ex-Muslims can't get past this and can't accept allies from other faiths who are aware of Islam (without questioning them thoroughly on their own beliefs).

     
    I am glad that the numbers of Muslims makes the difference between you caring about Islam or not.  You are in fact one step further than me.  However I dont think Sri Ram Sena would agree with you, and they are the type of people I bear issue with when criticising Islam, not you.

    On the bar attcks against women in India "Whoever has done this has done a good job. Girls going to pubs is not acceptable. So, whatever the Sena members did was right."

    Also please refrain from making such generalizations and then arguing on those wrong inferences.  Firstly I am not an atheist, I am currently agnostic.  Secondly I have already said that Islam has more to answer for than most religions, but that does not mean they have nothing to answer for?   

    Also do you mind if I ask why you are on this site, and not FFI, if you find all these shortcomings?

    Quote from: FinallyFree on February 24, 2009, 11:48 AM
    By the way, all faith when it boils down to it is blind, there is no proven faith, otherwise we'd all be following that faith. So blind following doesn't matter. I know a lot of the so called "blind followers" of Christianity, not one of them would ever be a militant or Jihadi or even support such activities.

    Blind following doesn't matter?  Are you sure you even want me to argue this point, as I think it is too obvious and will do you little credit by doing so.

    Quote from: FinallyFree on February 24, 2009, 11:48 AM
    Please, wake up and smell the horse shit.

    I could smell the horseshit behind all religions, not just Islam.  Thats why I left Islam to become an agnostic, and not just any other religion.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #18 - February 24, 2009, 01:48 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on February 24, 2009, 11:48 AM
    Sure it sounds good on paper that only those blind to their own inconsistencies are critisized but that's not what happens on the Forum. I have seen it myself in action, anyone who remotely expresses belief or a tie with a non-Islamic religion (mainly Christianity) is instantly an outsider and may no longer critisize Islam. I'm not accusing you personally of anything but a lot of people here do push forward with such hate.

    Actually it's only with Abrahamic faiths. I have not seen anyone of other faiths being criticised. We have a Zoroastrian and a Wicca on this forum and they have never been criticised for their faith. I think it is due to the fact that Chritianity and Judaism has such strong ties with Islam that rejecting Islam is also equivalent to rejecting them if you leave these faiths altogether.

    I have no problem with them criticising Islam personally though I do understand the mentality of other ex-muslims on this forum to a degree.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #19 - February 24, 2009, 02:12 PM
    Quote
    We have a Zoroastrian and a Wicca on this forum


    We have a Wiccan on the forum??  I didn't know that, who's the Wiccan?
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #20 - February 24, 2009, 02:13 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on February 24, 2009, 01:48 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on February 24, 2009, 11:48 AM
    Sure it sounds good on paper that only those blind to their own inconsistencies are critisized but that's not what happens on the Forum. I have seen it myself in action, anyone who remotely expresses belief or a tie with a non-Islamic religion (mainly Christianity) is instantly an outsider and may no longer critisize Islam. I'm not accusing you personally of anything but a lot of people here do push forward with such hate.

    Actually it's only with Abrahamic faiths. I have not seen anyone of other faiths being criticised. We have a Zoroastrian and a Wicca on this forum and they have never been criticised for their faith. I think it is due to the fact that Chritianity and Judaism has such strong ties with Islam that rejecting Islam is also equivalent to rejecting them if you leave these faiths altogether.

    I have no problem with them criticising Islam personally though I do understand the mentality of other ex-muslims on this forum to a degree.


    With all due respect,

    When I made the comment I did put in brackets (especially Christianity). But my point remains, why should even Christians and Jews not be ppermitted to point out the problems with Islam even though they themselves have inconsistencies in their religion?

    It is really insulting to draw comparisons between Islam, Christianity and Judaism, especially since you should know how Islam started. It isn't fair to call Islam an abrahamic religion either. It hijacked Abrahamic lore and traditions meaning that it isn't a continuation of anything. The only people who call it an Abrahamic religion are Muslims and liberal Christians/Jews. The God of Abraham is very differant to the God of the Quran. The prophets of Judeo Christianity are also exclusively Jewish,  considering Muhammad isn't, he doesnt form a part of it.

    While in the past Christianity and Judaism have been linked to violence and negative actions, they are not at the core extremist unlike Islam. They have also evolved from previous forms while Islam fluctuates every generation.

    I could go on exploring the differances but I'm not going to. Islam tries to pretend to be a continuation, but isn't.

    Anyway, I don't see anything wrong with devout Christians and Jews expressing their opinions on Islam and talking about it's wrongs unless they are here to proselytise.

    That's all I have to say.
    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #21 - February 24, 2009, 02:15 PM
    Quote from: Calm on February 23, 2009, 03:17 PM
    First to clarify, I personally dont believe in any of religion. I do not think Islam is worse than other religions. And if Muslims are happy and contented with their religion, I am no one to comment and I feel different people have different Islam.

    However, I am concerned with the 'opposition to Islamic Criticism coming from other religious people, who have never been Muslims or Ex Muslims.'

    I understand there are many muslims who are decent and good human beings. However, Islam was always a political movement and not just personal spiritual comfort. And, as a political movement it has never been good to people belonging to other religions. the above mentioned muslims have so much become used to theocracy aspect of Islam that they fail to criticize it, rather they idealized it. And the picture is completely different if you see with the eyes of say a coptic Christian or a Malaysian Hindu. And those people might be religious but that does not invalidate the inhuman aspects of Islam (which do exist) that they had to suffer.

    Here, if Islam is criticized by Non-ex-Muslims or non Atheists, their credibility or motives are questioned, why? If a Muslim come here from boards like Ummah.com and try to explain you Islam is correct, will she/he be questioned about intentions?

    Yes, we obviously dont want to be a hate board, but why to get paranoid over criticism of Islam? Here, it is mpore easy to criticize Christianity than Islam.

    I look at non-muslims opposing the critisism of islam to be at best patronising twats and at worst downright well intentioned racists.

    Passive Racism goes something like this:
    They will criticize their own religion because look at me I am oh so refined, look how i criticize even myself because I am above all that, but as for the cave and desert dwellers, they need to be protected in their natural zoo habitat, let the zoo dwellers naturally evolve so maybe one day they can become something almost like me.

    I absolutely abhor such passive racism, even more so then open racists who can be more easily dealt with and made to be ignored.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #22 - February 24, 2009, 02:17 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on February 24, 2009, 02:12 PM
    Quote
    We have a Zoroastrian and a Wicca on this forum


    We have a Wiccan on the forum??  I didn't know that, who's the Wiccan?

    Get the faggets, ropes and torches ready.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #23 - February 24, 2009, 02:24 PM
    Quote
    When I made the comment I did put in brackets (especially Christianity). But my point remains, why should even Christians and Jews not be ppermitted to point out the problems with Islam even though they themselves have inconsistencies in their religion?


    They can point them out, it just depends how its done.  If someone is dissing the Qur'an in one breath and preaching the Bible in the next it looks like hypocrisy.  They're not going to have their posts censored or anything, but you can't expect people to take them seriously either.

    Quote
    It is really insulting to draw comparisons between Islam, Christianity and Judaism, especially since you should know how Islam started. It isn't fair to call Islam an abrahamic religion either. It hijacked Abrahamic lore and traditions meaning that it isn't a continuation of anything. The only people who call it an Abrahamic religion are Muslims and liberal Christians/Jews. The God of Abraham is very differant to the God of the Quran. The prophets of Judeo Christianity are also exclusively Jewish,  considering Muhammad isn't, he doesnt form a part of it.


    And the God of the Old Testament is very different to the God of the New Testament.  The God of the Qur'an is more similar to the OT, so maybe its Christianity which is the odd religion out, not Islam.

    Anyway, Abrahamic faiths is generally understood to mean Judaism, Christianity and Islam, not just by muslims and liberals, that is the commonly used definition of the term.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #24 - February 24, 2009, 02:28 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on February 24, 2009, 02:12 PM
    Quote
    We have a Zoroastrian and a Wicca on this forum


    We have a Wiccan on the forum??  I didn't know that, who's the Wiccan?

    belladonnasix

    Quote from: FinallyFree on February 24, 2009, 02:13 PM
    Anyway, I don't see anything wrong with devout Christians and Jews expressing their opinions on Islam and talking about it's wrongs unless they are here to proselytise.

    That's all I have to say.

    And I agree (unless they are being hypocritical). I can harbour a guess as to why other religions are not criticised to the same degree is due to lack of knowledge.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #25 - February 24, 2009, 02:36 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on February 24, 2009, 02:13 PM
    When I made the comment I did put in brackets (especially Christianity). But my point remains, why should even Christians and Jews not be permitted to point out the problems with Islam even though they themselves have inconsistencies in their religion?

    Quote from: FinallyFree on February 24, 2009, 02:13 PM
    Anyway, I don't see anything wrong with devout Christians and Jews expressing their opinions on Islam


    Please let us know who said that? If you are unable to do that, then please resubmit your post with these statements changed as it unfortunately formed the basis of your reply.  Once you feel it is correct, then I am happy to reply.

    Also did you intentionally ignore my question re. FFI, or was it an oversight?
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #26 - February 24, 2009, 02:36 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on February 24, 2009, 02:28 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on February 24, 2009, 02:12 PM
    Quote
    We have a Zoroastrian and a Wicca on this forum


    We have a Wiccan on the forum??  I didn't know that, who's the Wiccan?

    belladonnasix




    ===========

    I thought she's a Pantheist  Huh?

    Quote from: belladonnasix on January 21, 2009, 11:31 AM
    As for myself, its: Islam(by default) - Atheism - Paganism - Pantheism  


    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #27 - February 24, 2009, 02:40 PM
    Quote from: Emerald on February 24, 2009, 02:36 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on February 24, 2009, 02:28 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on February 24, 2009, 02:12 PM
    Quote
    We have a Zoroastrian and a Wicca on this forum


    We have a Wiccan on the forum??  I didn't know that, who's the Wiccan?

    belladonnasix




    ===========

    I thought she's a Pantheist  Huh?

    Quote from: belladonnasix on January 21, 2009, 11:31 AM
    As for myself, its: Islam(by default) - Atheism - Paganism - Pantheism  



    Oh, looks like she changed. I read on one of her introductory posts that she became a wicca when she was younger. Did not know she deconverted.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #28 - February 24, 2009, 02:41 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on February 24, 2009, 02:24 PM

    And the God of the Old Testament is very different to the God of the New Testament.  The God of the Qur'an is more similar to the OT, so maybe its Christianity which is the odd religion out, not Islam.



    The God of the OT is indeed very similar to Quran's Allah. Thats' one thing which perturbs me about Islam, I think new religions, like new laws, should always try to improve upon the old. Muhammad missed out entirely on Jesus' humane teachings, it was all back to OT barbarism again.

    Its like someone decided to make their country's Constitution based on the American Constitution, but missed the 21st century American Constitution where a Black could be President, instead chose to base their Constitution on 18th century America, when slavery was still in vogue.

    New religions often give an increasingly sophisticated understanding of God & reduce barbarisms ie the Bahai faith in the 19th century Iran proclaimed absolutely equality between the sexes in unequivocal terms.

    Muhammad chose to copy from the OT, forgetting the NT and made his faith a proselytising & imperialistic faith unlike Judaism with clear divisions between believers & other People of the Book, and with absolute intolerance to all polytheists, thus exacerbating the troubles.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why can't we criticize Islam?
     Reply #29 - February 24, 2009, 02:45 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on February 24, 2009, 02:13 PM
    It is really insulting to draw comparisons between Islam, Christianity and Judaism, especially since you should know how Islam started.


    I suppose Judaism with the killing of all the Canaanites, Midianites, Philistines and so many more was fine?

    It must be insulting to compare it with the Christians starting up their religion in the Americas and Africa with millions killed. The Crusades against fellow Christians for not following the right Christianity is divine. What about the inquisitions?
     
    Quote
    It isn't fair to call Islam an abrahamic religion either. It hijacked Abrahamic lore and traditions meaning that it isn't a continuation of anything.


    It adheres more closely to the Abrahamic traditions.
    - Stoning,
    - Halaal/Kosher (no blood),
    - No pork,
    - Invasion of any group that rubs you the wrong way,
    - Slavery
    - Hell (not so much Judaism)

    So Christianity didn't hijack Judaism as a basis for its new found cult? It used the OT to justify its trumped up prophecies for its messiah and sanction its existence as an established faith.

    Quote
    The only people who call it an Abrahamic religion are Muslims and liberal Christians/Jews. The God of Abraham is very differant to the God of the Quran. The prophets of Judeo Christianity are also exclusively Jewish,  considering Muhammad isn't, he doesnt form a part of it.


    What, the god of Abraham who ordered the killing of men, women and children, well except for the virgin girls? The God who killed all the peoples, animals, plants in a flood, the who destroyed Sodom with bolts of fire. All the same jealous, vengeful god.

    Quote
    While in the past Christianity and Judaism have been linked to violence and negative actions, they are not at the core extremist unlike Islam. They have also evolved from previous forms while Islam fluctuates every generation.


    Their scriptures are intolerant and extremist. And should Christians or Jews follow them they would be mirror image of extremist Muslims.

    We achieved enlightenment in the west only because of secularism. Not because of Christianity or Judaism. The irreligious, though science and reason resulted in fair societies with equality for all including women. Not thru the religious.

    Quote
    I could go on exploring the differances but I'm not going to. Islam tries to pretend to be a continuation, but isn't.


    It is a logical continuation by a man who wanted power and was able to fully utilise the intolerance and hatred found on those scriptures to further his ambitions.

    Quote
    Anyway, I don't see anything wrong with devout Christians and Jews expressing their opinions on Islam and talking about it's wrongs unless they are here to proselytise.


    I don't see any wrong any anyone of any faith expressing their points of view. It?s called free speech. But they must also be strong enough to take as good as they give.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
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