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 Topic: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.

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  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #330 - November 26, 2013, 10:19 PM
    Still its a fallacy of equivocation which they are committing. 
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #331 - November 26, 2013, 10:29 PM
    Quote from: Jibbs on November 26, 2013, 09:02 PM
    All of the scientific miracles are rather vague. Most Muslims see it as a miracle, because they believe nothing in Islam is done without purpose, we just don't know all the purposes, but everything is meant to be good for us. Therefore they use this evidence that living your life as the prophet did has a multitude of benefits, the prophet being the best example of living ones life.


    Yes. In regards to the investigation of knowledge that simply couldn't have been known in Mohammed's time, as long as there is an interpretation or explanation that doesn't require some magical foresight, it cannot be considered a miracle. I don't think it's appropriate to even call it a "vague miracle", because the term miracle often suggests that there's something special behind all this. A "vague verse" is better. I personally believe that if magical foresight was truly involved in any of the verses in the Qur'aan, not only would the verses be more clear, but they would also touch upon a more useful and well-known topic.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #332 - November 26, 2013, 10:33 PM
    Quote from: Jibbs on November 26, 2013, 08:29 PM
    In regards to the sea barrier thing, was the Prophet ever known to travel by sea?


    There is the Red sea the separates the African continent from the Asian continent and the Mediterranean sea to the north that separates Africa from Europe. There is the Indian ocean to the south which the Red Sea empties out into. Red Sea also empties out into the Mediterranean sea.
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #333 - November 26, 2013, 10:34 PM
    Quote from: Jibbs on November 26, 2013, 08:28 PM
    Ok, I don't have any knowledge to refute you so, touché my friend.

    And on to the next one kapow!!

    1257. 'A'isha said, "The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, used to take care to fast on Mondays and Thursdays." [at-Tirmidhi]

     1255. Abu Qatada reported that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, was asked about fasting Mondays and he said, "That is the day on which I was born and the day when I was sent - or when revelation descended on me." [Muslim]

     1256. Abu Hurayra reported that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Actions are presented on Mondays and Thursdays, so I like my actions to be presented while I am fasting." (Muslim related it without mentioning fasting.) [at-Tirmidhi]


    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/feb/18/fasting-protect-brain-diseases-scientists

    and now Mashallah the 5:2 diet has shown to have many benefits the Prophet knew this 1400 years ago.


    This is definitely the fallacy of equivocation. Context is severely important.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #334 - November 26, 2013, 10:44 PM
    There are also other smaller bodies of water in the region like the Persian gulf.



    In short, if he did the amount of traveling across the middle eastern region that the books say he does, he must have ran into these large bodies of water.

    Also this thread: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=23225.msg720829;topicseen#new
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #335 - November 27, 2013, 12:02 AM
    I have a genuine question about this miracle bollocks. What I cannot fail to notice is that is Mo said someone which "couldn't of been known 1400 years ago" it's a miracle. After all, how could he have known? The miracle seems to be that he thought of it first. Yet when we find out he wasn't the first, it's no longer a miracle. Why is this? If it's  miracle that someone would of known so and so 1400 years ago, why is it not a miracle when it turns out someone figured it would 3000 years ago? I'm assuming because the people who came up with it worshiped the wrong gods Roll Eyes Double standard.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #336 - November 27, 2013, 12:17 AM
    Here's another subject on the waters thing. http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=23225.0;topicseen
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #337 - November 27, 2013, 12:42 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on November 27, 2013, 12:02 AM
    I have a genuine question about this miracle bollocks. What I cannot fail to notice is that is Mo said someone which "couldn't of been known 1400 years ago" it's a miracle. After all, how could he have known? The miracle seems to be that he thought of it first. Yet when we find out he wasn't the first, it's no longer a miracle. Why is this? If it's  miracle that someone would of known so and so 1400 years ago, why is it not a miracle when it turns out someone figured it would 3000 years ago? I'm assuming because the people who came up with it worshiped the wrong gods Roll Eyes Double standard.


    Or weren't the chose prophets sent from god. Muslims tend to worship him as if he were a god himself. Same goes for the "shaba" which are the ones who traveled with him and were closest to him. Like a gang.
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #338 - November 27, 2013, 12:48 AM
    Quote from: movingfeet on November 27, 2013, 12:42 AM
    Muslims tend to worship him as if he were a god himself.


    I've pointed this out. They deny it but I see little difference with how christians treat Jesus.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #339 - November 27, 2013, 12:56 AM
    They deny it, and like you said, in the same breath, if you say anything even remotely negative about him, they flip out. Just like the Jesus freaks.
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #340 - November 27, 2013, 01:39 AM
    I don't know why you people are so hung up on this "two seas" thing. If the "miracles" were rated 1 to 10 by their vagueness, this one would be a 10.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #341 - November 27, 2013, 01:42 AM
    The prophet bit doesn't really play out though. If something is a miracle because it was figured out by someone 1400 years ago by someone who worships allah then it should still be a miracle when someone figures it out before then who worships a different god.

    "Guys! Guys!"
    "What?"
    "Barry just figured out how to cure cancer!"
    "Oh my god! It's a miracle!"
    "Praise the lord!"
    "But how can we be sure?"
    "Because he was the first! Hallelujah!"
    "Wait, wait, damn it. Just got a text. Turns out Steve from down the road figured this out last week."
    "So not a miracle then. Fuck."
    "Wait, doesn't that mean the miracle happened to Steve?"
    "What? Ridiculous. Bite your blasphemous tongue!"
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #342 - November 27, 2013, 07:08 PM
    Are we just going to brush them all off with "they're vague, its not a miracle"?... Oh how boring, I thought we were going to refute all the "miracles" individually :/ . Blaaaahhhh.
    "Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #343 - November 27, 2013, 08:02 PM
    A lot of these miracles are not vague in the sense of the claim. The two seas one is somewhat clear due to the language used. The use of the word transgress for example. Water should not move through this barrier. The issue is the science behind the claims is usually vague, quote-mined or omits other facts. They used surface tension which only applies to the surface of water. There is no mention of the mechanics of water below this surface.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #344 - November 27, 2013, 08:13 PM
    Which just further proves that it was an observation that anyone could have made if they paid attention to their surroundings.
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #345 - November 27, 2013, 08:55 PM
    I do love your eloquence in the way you speak bogart.
    The aim was simply to post that which is claimed as scientific miracle amongst the muslim community and through dawah, and then refute that. The statement is vague and therefore can have several applications, people at some point down the line apply a fact relating to science to claim it is confirmation of the vague statement. The fact often vague because often in detail may not have the same application to the statement, but on a surface level does.
    Would you like to post a "miracle" that you feel is eligible from the Muslim perspective and then someone can refute it?
    "Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #346 - November 27, 2013, 09:21 PM
    In the best case scenario, the 'barriers' in the sea the quran is referring to are pycnoclines. Pycnoclines are not advanced modern science. They are ancient science.
    In the worst case scenario, the quran is referring to one of a number of completely false ideas.
    I don't think much more debunking needs to be done on that one. Even if we agree with the Miracle seekers interpretation of the verse (and I don't), it is still only talking about something that has been known for thousands of years, and any idiot can recreate in his kitchen (and I have done so).



  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #347 - November 27, 2013, 11:32 PM
    Quote from: Jibbs on November 27, 2013, 08:55 PM
    I do love your eloquence in the way you speak bogart.


    Eloquent and me do not usually go together. You should see me try to skate on ice.

    Quote from: Jibbs on November 27, 2013, 08:55 PM


    The statement is vague and therefore can have several applications, people at some point down the line apply a fact relating to science to claim it is confirmation of the vague statement.


    There are many different aspects which are vague. The foremost would be the translation from Classical Arabic to Modern English. Some languages are more diverse in usage of masculine, feminine and neuter classification. Modern English is based on natural gender classification for the most part. Gender classification is within pronouns rather than nouns in English. Arabic being a Semitic language at it's core has many more gender classifications, many of which are applied to nouns.

    I just realized an error with this miracle starring all of us in the face. A Sea is a human construct to separate on body of water from another. It is not separating these bodies by the similarity between water molecules. Seas are based on geological factors not molecular. Many of the named Seas were created centuries ago. For example the Sea of Galilee is a fresh water lake. The verse does differentiate between fresh or salt water nor it's use of sea.

    Yay semantics!
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #348 - November 28, 2013, 08:51 AM
    Quote from: Jibbs on November 27, 2013, 08:55 PM
    I do love your eloquence in the way you speak bogart.


     Cry
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #349 - November 28, 2013, 07:15 PM
    Did I miss something? I always lose an element of understanding in text based conversations.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #350 - November 28, 2013, 09:28 PM
    Aww Quod I love you for different reasons. lol
    "Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #351 - November 28, 2013, 09:29 PM
    Anyone want to post the next one? Since the intermittent fasting is not considered as a valid claim as a miracle of Islam.
    "Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #352 - November 28, 2013, 10:03 PM
    Honestly I'm not sure how much point there is. The way I see it is that if you can debunk any part of it then you're debunked the entire thing as the claim in perfect word of the creator. Besides, as science changes the "miracles" change. The quran predicted water on Mars, the quran predicted life on other planets, the quran predicted physics, the quran predicted blah blah blah.

    If something they now claim is a miracle turns out to be bollocks, they'll just go on about interpretation.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #353 - November 28, 2013, 10:08 PM
    QSE said  Undecided
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on September 30, 2013, 02:34 AM
    Can we bring this back? I'm sure there are more miracles to debunk.


    "Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #354 - November 28, 2013, 10:14 PM
    Well you want to have a miracle claim a muslim would hold to then refute it right? How many do you need to prove it isn't perfect?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #355 - November 28, 2013, 10:15 PM
    Quote from: Jibbs on November 28, 2013, 10:08 PM
    Undecided



    That reminds me of Karl Pilkington. Cheesy
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #356 - November 28, 2013, 10:18 PM
    He's a funny fella.

    Was the purpose to prove the religion is false? I thought it was just debunking the different claims.
    "Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #357 - November 28, 2013, 10:22 PM
    Just making a point if you planning on calling bullshit with the miracle claim peddlers. You not get any to put forth? Post and debunk. Smiley
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #358 - November 28, 2013, 10:23 PM
    Now that Hamza Tzortzis has admitted it is all a load of crap, i think the cat is out of the bag, and I have seen plenty of Muslims agreeing with him. They are feeling safer to come out of the woodwork these days, and I feel like the whole movement is on it's last legs.

    When Muslims present me with a scientific miracle these days, it is usually one of the more obscure ones. The most recent one i heard was foreknowledge of cloning.

    http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_101.html

    A while ago I would have torn it apart, but I just couldnt be bothered.
  • Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked.
     Reply #359 - November 28, 2013, 10:26 PM
    THE CLONING OF LIVING THINGS

    [Satan said:] “I will lead them astray and fill them with false hopes. I will command them and they will cut off cattle’s ears. I will command them and they will change Allah’s creation.” Anyone who takes satan as his protector in place of Allah has clearly lost everything.” (Surat an-Nisa’, 119)

    It's talking about mutilating. From this verse alone circumcision should not be allowed, as you're apparently being led astray and altering Allah's creation.

    I have to admit to finding it funny they've decided it's cloning.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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