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 Topic: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question

 (Read 11614 times)
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  • Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     OP - February 24, 2009, 10:52 PM

    Have a watch of this.  It also features a gay Muslim.  Very interesting.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00hvtbc

    .
  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #1 - February 24, 2009, 10:54 PM

    It's also on youtube.  I'm still watching it.  I will give my analysis once I've watched it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g72se3x8GN8

    .
  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #2 - February 25, 2009, 01:46 PM

    Can't watch vids at work but Anjem Choudhry and a gay Muslim in the same room should be pretty entertaining.  Will watch as soon as I get home!  evil

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #3 - February 25, 2009, 05:54 PM

    Nice link, thanks

    More on on anjem choudary..

    http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23367406-details/The+unholy+past+of+the+Muslim+cleric+demanding+the+Pope's+execution/article.do


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  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #4 - February 25, 2009, 06:04 PM

    watch the bit where he calls the gay Muslim an oxymoron and gets called a moron in return Cheesy

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  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #5 - February 25, 2009, 06:56 PM

    See, as soon as Islam moves to the West or gets exposed to Western morals, there's noticeable improvements.No Muslim nation has legal slavery today. Just last week, Christopher Hitchens was invited to Lebanon by a Muslim group(even if he got beaten up) & now gay Muslims discuss Islam with fundie Muslims. banana dance

    I can't wait for the day fundie Wahhabis become a fringe sect like the Ultra Orthodox Jewish nutters, but entirely give up the Shariah just like the Orthodox Jews have given up stoning or easy gets.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #6 - February 25, 2009, 08:11 PM

    See, as soon as Islam moves to the West or gets exposed to Western morals, there's noticeable improvements.No Muslim nation has legal slavery today. Just last week, Christopher Hitchens was invited to Lebanon by a Muslim group(even if he got beaten up) & now gay Muslims discuss Islam with fundie Muslims. banana dance

    Not necessarily true, if you lived in the UK I dont think you would say that either.  Funny you make that point here.  Anjem Choudary, the fundie in the video, was born & raised in the UK. 

    The only reason a gay was put in front of a fundie, is because it was for a debate in the West - says nothing about Muslims over here. 

    In fact I can't remember who it was, but in an earlier post, somebody mentioned that the Muslims in the UK of Pakistani descent, are worse than those born & bred in Pakistan.  There are many reasons for that, but that is an altogether different post.


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  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #7 - February 25, 2009, 10:04 PM

    In fact I can't remember who it was, but in an earlier post, somebody mentioned that the Muslims in the UK of Pakistani descent, are worse than those born & bred in Pakistan.  There are many reasons for that, but that is an altogether different post.

    Probably because a lot of people in Pakistan admire the West, and it's higher standard of living, and it's education system, and a lot of Pakistani's aspire to emigrate to the West one day.

    Whereas the British born Muslims of Pakistani descent take the West for granted.

    .
  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #8 - February 25, 2009, 11:05 PM

    Maybe because the grass is always greener.  Also sense of belonging, insecurity complex, racism, parental paranoia of cultural dilution/pollution etc etc

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  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #9 - February 26, 2009, 07:26 AM

    Maybe because the grass is always greener.  Also sense of belonging, insecurity complex, racism, parental paranoia of cultural dilution/pollution etc etc


    If Muslims are becoming closer to the faith than their cousins back home, fine enough. However, if they're trying to have the most obscurantist interpretation of their faith, then its a sad thing. no

    Jews in Europe banned polygamy, Rabbinical Courts never implemented stoning in Europe etc & most importantly Jews in Europe never planned terror attacks. Reform of Islam into a benign doctrine is essential to loads of people- Muslim women, apostates, rebel children & non Muslims who live in proximity with them to name just a few.

    If it doesn't reform, the only possible & desirable option is extinction, but loads of people will die or suffer before that happens.  sheikh Muslimah= either  Chilling OR ghost of the future .

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #10 - February 26, 2009, 10:27 AM

    In Asian countries where the majority of Muslims in the UK are from some try to modernise to conform to the West and adopt some of the Western lifestyles.

    The problem in the UK with the younger generation they are influnced by Imams in the mosques, most of whom are recuited from abroad and many of whom speak little English. The majority of funding for Islam here (UK) is from Saudi. All their literature, videos, lectures are sourced and funded from Saudi. Mosques gets financial support and must tow a certain line.

    This results in an extreme indoctrination of young minds.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #11 - February 26, 2009, 10:39 AM

    In Asian countries where the majority of Muslims in the UK are from some try to modernise to conform to the West and adopt some of the Western lifestyles.

    The problem in the UK with the younger generation they are influnced by Imams in the mosques, most of whom are recuited from abroad and many of whom speak little English. The majority of funding for Islam here (UK) is from Saudi. All their literature, videos, lectures are sourced and funded from Saudi. Mosques gets financial support and must tow a certain line.

    This results in an extreme indoctrination of young minds.


    Yup!  Just take a gander in any mosque bookshop in the UK and you will see exactly what a.ghazali is talking about.  VERY disturbing stuff, especially if you are a woman!

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #12 - February 26, 2009, 10:39 AM

    BTW I LOVED watching Anjem Choudary get OWNED on that show!  It's good to see that most British Musilms and non-Muslims clearly see this guy as an embarrassment to the British Muslim community.

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #13 - February 26, 2009, 10:41 AM

    BTW I LOVED

    loved what?

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #14 - February 26, 2009, 11:39 AM

    watch the bit where he calls the gay Muslim an oxymoron and gets called a moron in return Cheesy


    That was AWESOME.  Cheesy
  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #15 - February 26, 2009, 12:03 PM

    The majority of funding for Islam here (UK) is from Saudi. All their literature, videos, lectures are sourced and funded from Saudi. Mosques gets financial support and must tow a certain line.

    This results in an extreme indoctrination of young minds.

     Then perhaps Islam in Saudi needs to change first. Islam in places like Indonesia was pretty moderate, no compulsory veiling, today provinces like Aceh have compulsory veiling,compulsory attendance at  mosques for men and violators of these Shariah by-laws are caned.Aceh was the first place in Indonesia to become Islamic- one wonders whether Aceh's (or Ache's as I keep typing it) fate today could be all Indonesia's fate tomorrow.

    In any case, this situation cannot continue indefinitely. I'm still comfortable with fringe groups like the Amish or Hasidic Jews who seem to centre their whole existence around their faiths, but stuff like Shariah punishments or killing & jailing those who disagree with you have to go. Hasidic Jews or Amish don't do this.

    The problem with the Wahhabi worldview, unlike the Haredi Jewish or Amish worldview is that, these Wahhabis seek to dominate the world's thought process & actions, but find few takers for their vision of the ideal society & increasing numbers of people even amongst them who reject it causing utter fitna. Far from further imperialism, inspite of the accident of oil, they lack the military capacities to even defend themselves, and the future lies in Los Angeles & Shanghai, not in any Islamic capital, depriving them of the means of fully & effectively silencing their critics.

    Many cultures, like Japan, were remarkably capable of assimilating Western influences while maintaining their distinctiveness, & even exporting their distictiveness in the form of anime or electronic goods. Today, more & more cultures are succeeding in doing this, albeit with a few hiccups. But the Islamic culture, or at least the puritanical Wahhabi version of it, has been profoundly troubled by these changes & violently fearful for its survival-leading them to kill, or punish anyone who disagrees with them.

    The choices before them aren't attractive-they can try to make an attempt ie wage a jihad to turn the clock back to 7th century, or accept the abject failure of their vision of an ideal & just society before the modern version of laws & human rights. In other words, yield to the inevitable changes, commit cultural suicide.

    The choices aren't attractive, because the passing away of societies with obsolete views & practices , be it the slave owning Southern landowners in the American Civil War or the Wahhabis today come with cataclysmic upheavals & struggles for the people in those societies- unfortunately it also usually brings with it plenty of warfare & death on others opposing it, before its inevitable & long overdue demise. skull

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #16 - February 26, 2009, 01:39 PM

    Maybe because the grass is always greener.  Also sense of belonging, insecurity complex, racism, parental paranoia of cultural dilution/pollution etc etc

    Yep, A. Ghazali is right, Saudi financial support for Wahabi indoctination is another reason

    P.S I meant inferiority complex above, not insecurity complex, but that can also occur indirectly through discrete & indiscrete racism

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  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #17 - February 26, 2009, 03:17 PM

    BTW I LOVED watching Anjem Choudary get OWNED on that show!  It's good to see that most British Musilms and non-Muslims clearly see this guy as an embarrassment to the British Muslim community.

    Which is, I think, the reason he was there. Choudary is a violent and repugnant idiot, but it was rather obvious that he was just the punching bag of the whole show. And in the end, the Labour messiah appeared to declare how British Muslims are nice and tolerant, and how Choudary is just a fringe radical --which is far from the truth. The mediocre Islamic majority is always happy to blame a few radicals for the collective intolerance and stupidity of the Ummah while they never openly reject, and sometimes discreetly support, these radicals.

    Also, Maryam Namazie wasn't given much time to defend her ideas. She sounded like an Islamic reformist or a liberal Muslim, and not really an ex-Muslim atheist. The difference is important, as we all know.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #18 - February 26, 2009, 03:41 PM

    Also, Maryam Namazie wasn't given much time to defend her ideas. She sounded like an Islamic reformist or a liberal Muslim, and not really an ex-Muslim atheist. The difference is important, as we all know.


    Yep, some reformers might be genuinely tolerant somehow managing to reconcile their devotion to their faith with  modern ethics & encouraging their followers to do the same while others are actually wolves in sheep's clothing, practicing their taqiyya on unsuspecting masses & silently supporting the radicals.

    I think the real litmus test to decide how tolerant a crowd is to throw in an ex Muslim, someone who's openly renounced Islam & crtiticizes a faith he\she's no longer a part of.

    Its easy to tolerate a Fethullah Gulen-for both moderate & not so moderate Muslims, but tolerating a Turan Dursun? Tougher, but proves true liberalism.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #19 - February 26, 2009, 03:58 PM

    In fairness though Anjem Choudary is preaching closer to the Quran and Sunnah than the rest of the Muslims who were there, while his beliefs are abhorrent, they aren't "in the minority".

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #20 - February 26, 2009, 04:08 PM

    I actually had more respect for his honesty than the other Muslims.  At least he interpreted the Quran the way it was meant to be interpreted, and not just to suit himself.  I just disliked him because of his ability & willingness to do so.

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  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #21 - February 26, 2009, 04:33 PM

    I actually had more respect for his honesty than the other Muslims.  At least he interpreted the Quran the way it was meant to be interpreted, and not just to suit himself.  I just disliked him because of his ability & willingness to do so.


    Same, well I wouldn't go as far as respect but at least he's gutsy and not pulling Taqqiya.

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #22 - February 26, 2009, 04:33 PM

    There was a stat posted here couple weeks ago about how the UK is the most anti-european and the most self-hating. I came to the conclusion that the muslims born in the UK are actually well integrated, however they are integrated in a culture that taught them how to hate itself and themselves.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #23 - February 26, 2009, 04:42 PM

    There was a stat posted here couple weeks ago about how the UK is the most anti-european and the most self-hating. I came to the conclusion that the muslims born in the UK are actually well integrated, however they are integrated in a culture that taught them how to hate itself and themselves.


    Imagine how the Germans feel!

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  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #24 - February 26, 2009, 06:21 PM

    Quote from: Rashna
    Its easy to tolerate a Fethullah Gulen-for both moderate & not so moderate Muslims, but tolerating a Turan Dursun? Tougher, but proves true liberalism.

    You seem well-versed in Turkish politics, Rashna. I would like to warn against the assumption that Fettullah Gulen is a liberal or reformist Muslim, though. All the worshippers of Fettullah I have come across are Islamic drones who oppose secularism and desire a more Islamic, less liberal Turkey. His understanding of Islam is only a few shades lighter than Choudary. He is extremely unpopular among Turkish leftists, for obvious reasons.

    You see, Fettullah Gulen and similar idiots all derived from the reactionary Islamic forces who opposed the secular Republic. Because they were suppressed, discredited, and deemed repugnant by the Kemalists and the secular forces within Turkish society, they decided to apply a lighter shade of Islamic green. In other words, Fettullah Gulen is not a reformist, but a lightweight reactionary.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #25 - February 27, 2009, 12:46 AM

    There was a stat posted here couple weeks ago about how the UK is the most anti-European and the most self-hating. I came to the conclusion that the Muslims born in the UK are actually well integrated, however they are integrated in a culture that taught them how to hate itself and themselves.



    A strong confident culture with strong confident male role models is what most young people are looking for. White or black, African, Asian, American or British when we are young we look for something to unite behind.

    Preferably something that is gutsy enough to assert itself and if it's followers are tough enough to assert themselves violently the more attractive that culture or group is to most young men and a handful of young women.

    We need to belong and we want to stand out and look tough.

    The problem with the UK is that we don't have anything to offer.

    We apologise for the warriors who came from our country and present them as cowardly thugs who we want to distance ourselves from.

    We teach that English/British culture is a bland, dead racist concept and that all other cultures are superior.

    In Britain we have a culture that teaches minorities that they are oppressed by the system and that we are an inherently racist society, minorities are the noble blameless victims and the true heros of our society.

    What do we have to offer young people from minorities to unite behind apart from their own cultures and sense of noble victimhood?

    A fluffy nebulous concept of fair play, freedom and minority rights with a love for other peoples cultures and a dash of pacifism and masochism. "War is never the answer" "It's all our fault"

    Or The Sun, Big Brother, binge drinking and football.

    We do have great scientists, poets, intellectuals and philosophers to be proud of but lets be honest as great as these minds are they are the geeks not the warriors and young men want something to stand up and proudly beat their chests for and that is never going to be Keats, Shakespeare, Bertrand Russel, Sir Issac Newton and Darwin is it?

    Warriors like Churchill are forever tainted with the crimes of Empire so it is not the done thing to be overly proud or identify with the likes of him or the men in our armed forces.   

    So what do we have left?

    A demoralised apologetic spineless middle class majority with nothing to be proud of and unite behind apart from multiculturalism, anti Americanism and self hate.

    An angry disenfranchised bunch of white working class wasters with nothing to unite behind apart from the robustly masculine black street culture or binge drinking, football and the pathetic BNP or maybe conversion to Islam.

    Ethnic minorities who are taught that Britain is inherently racist and that the oppression they suffer makes them morally superior to the rest of society.

    So who can blame black and Muslim youth if they join a gang or become jihadis.

    Lets face it the UK isn't showing them anything they can proudly unite behind.

    These lads are not integrated because there is nothing tangible to integrate into.

    They are just latching on to anything that gives them a sense of power.

    Victimhood empowers the youth and gives a reason to have a "Don't fuck with me attitude" which strangely the middle class majority applaud and gangsta identity or fearless jihadi warriors give them that robust masculine culture to unite behind.

    For the first time since 7.7 I will have to agree with the anti imperialists. "It's all our fault" Not because of our history of imperialism and the Iraq war but because we are so bloody apologetic and spineless.
     
  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #26 - February 27, 2009, 05:23 AM

    You seem well-versed in Turkish politics, Rashna. I would like to warn against the assumption that Fettullah Gulen is a liberal or reformist Muslim, though.  In other words, Fettullah Gulen is not a reformist, but a lightweight reactionary.


    Actually, I'm more interested than well versed. I've been to Egypt, Morocco & Turkey, and I liked Turkey the best of the three . One of my father's closest friends, who's also in the Indian Foreign Services like my father was posted in Turkey for several years. He's an ex Muslim man, with an Ex Hindu wife and two daughters about my age who they're raising to be somewhat irrereligious & anti religious. He mastered Turkish while in Turkey & discusses Turkish religion & politics whenever I've met him. He knows that I'm researching religions & recommended Turan Dursun's works which he says he found truly impressive. Unfortunately, they're in Turkish, so I can't read them. sad

    The problem with reformers,is precisely that its difficult to spot a genuine reformer from a lightweight reactionary.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #27 - February 27, 2009, 08:26 AM


    You write so well it seems a shame to disagree with you. 

    However you need to take a positivity pill.  If you think the UK is so bad, which countries do you prefer?  Self-analysis and ability to criticise itself shows the maturity of this society.

    I dont loathe the UK, I actually like it when I compare it internationally - the only ciriticism I would make is that the English can be anal and self centric, but at least they are an honest group of people that are not stuck inside their own buttholes.

    The English have learned that pride come before a fall, as post war UK proved and is on the right road to reinventing itself.  How many other nations can say that?

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  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #28 - February 27, 2009, 09:16 AM


    You write so well it seems a shame to disagree with you. 

    However you need to take a positivity pill.  If you think the UK is so bad, which countries do you prefer?  Self-analysis and ability to criticise itself shows the maturity of this society.

    I dont loathe the UK, I actually like it when I compare it internationally - the only ciriticism I would make is that the English can be anal and self centric, but at least they are an honest group of people that are not stuck inside their own buttholes.

    The English have learned that pride come before a fall, as post war UK proved and is on the right road to reinventing itself.  How many other nations can say that?


    Agreed I'm being a grump.  Tongue

    There is a lot of truth in what I said but of course there is a lot to be positive about in the UK. It's not all doom and gloom.

    Although I never want to live there again.

    The British reluctance to have national pride or buy into the warrior cult is a positive thing but it does leave many young men with nothing to latch onto and revere which is why so many youths end up looking to football hooliganism, gangsta culture or jihadis for their inspiration.

    I remember when I was a boy in the 80's there was nothing cool or tough about British identity.

    That is why so many white kids became white raggas complete with the super baggy trousers, flat top barnets and Jamaican accents.

    Britishness was either stupid cowardly and racist, pompous and posh or limp wristed and middle class.

    No tough guys to look up too.

    Even our prized values of freedom and democracy should be treated as just another culture on the smorgasbord of multiculturalism, nothing to be proud of especially when it didn't have any ethnic/minority struggle attached to it and our politicians come from the pathetic white middle classes. No glamour there.   

    Also many of our enemies and our self hating citizens see our lack of national pride, apologetic approach to our successful military history and our reluctance to defend ourselves or lionise those who do defend us as proof positive that Britain is doomed.
  • Re: Maryam Namazie, Anjem Choudary, Majid Nawaz on BBC's The Big Question
     Reply #29 - February 27, 2009, 09:55 AM

    Britain needs to stop being such a nanny-state and grow some balls. It is swallowing up all that PC-crap and I commend those who refuse to fall for it but unfortunately there is not enough of them.
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