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 Topic: The future of Islam

 (Read 20021 times)
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  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #30 - March 04, 2009, 03:26 PM

    Srsly though, I don't think Islam could die any more than Christianity could. Maybe one day when we are all super-rich and advanced in mentality, but until then we have to try something else.


    Whats' the pressing need for it to die, if it can reform & morph into something benign like Christianity did? However, Christianity had a Christ going for it, with all its faults-there's little like that in Islam to make me feel optimistic.

    Christians' needed to give up their violent ways & become more Christlike, if Muslims become more Muhammad like... Wink


    I'm just pointing out that religion dies through conquer and bloodshed, I haven't seen one that has faded out through peace.


    Generally thats how it happens, however, in Islam's case, Islam is both the perpetrator & the largest victims' of their own violence, but not the only victim. In this saga of conquest & bloodshed-other faiths & people stand the risk of dying.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #31 - March 04, 2009, 03:30 PM


    Whats' the pressing need for it to die, if it can reform & morph into something benign like Christianity did? However, Christianity had a Christ going for it, with all its faults-there's little like that in Islam to make me feel optimistic.

    Christians' needed to give up their violent ways & become more Christlike, if Muslims become more Muhammad like... Wink



    Like you said, there is little in Islam to make you feel optimistic, and being "Muhammad-like" (which is ulimately the aim of every Muslim) will only further the problem.

    I don't see reform or it becoming benign as realistic to be perfectly honest.


    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #32 - March 04, 2009, 03:35 PM

    You guys really think Islam will die?
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #33 - March 04, 2009, 03:36 PM

    I personally hope so but I doubt it

    It can die, but again I doubt it will. :(

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #34 - March 04, 2009, 03:38 PM

    I personally hope so but I doubt it

    It can die, but again I doubt it will. :(


    I doubt it as well. Only through force will it crumble....and even then the shit you have to do is not gonna be pro-Geneva convention if you get my meaning.
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #35 - March 04, 2009, 03:41 PM

    I personally hope so but I doubt it

    It can die, but again I doubt it will. :(


    I doubt it as well. Only through force will it crumble....and even then the shit you have to do is not gonna be pro-Geneva convention if you get my meaning.


    Doing that would make anyone worse than Muhammad.

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #36 - March 04, 2009, 03:44 PM

    I personally hope so but I doubt it

    It can die, but again I doubt it will. :(


    I doubt it as well. Only through force will it crumble....and even then the shit you have to do is not gonna be pro-Geneva convention if you get my meaning.


    Doing that would make anyone worse than Muhammad.


    Indeed. It would make the whole exercise pointless
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #37 - March 04, 2009, 03:49 PM

    You guys really think Islam will die?

    No but it needs to become weaker and have less influence in governments.
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #38 - March 04, 2009, 03:53 PM

    Hassan,
    Few radical individuals carrying attacks are not our only worries. The bigger issue is many young Muslims don not condemn extremism though most of them are decent and peaceful personally. It is not uncommon to read this across Muslim boards: 'We should not criticize Taliban or Mumbai attackers as all the information we get is modified by western media, whatever attackers did is between them and Allah and we should not support evil kaffirs accusing them'. And this attitude of young Muslims makes me worried that Islam is going to be more radical in the near future.


    I've been an avid reader of one of the most mainstream Islamic websites, IslamOnline for several years now and the general tone of most of the readers who comment on articles in that period of time has become more radical, not to mention that many of the articles and the opinions oft their local journalists and ulama has also followed suit.  This, along with 9/11, 7/7,Mumbai and Lahore is what has led me to believe that for Islam it will only get worse before it gets better.

    Remember, radical Islam has been around for nearly a century now since the birth of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.  Probably even longer than that.

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #39 - March 04, 2009, 03:54 PM

    Hassan,
    Few radical individuals carrying attacks are not our only worries. The bigger issue is many young Muslims don not condemn extremism though most of them are decent and peaceful personally. It is not uncommon to read this across Muslim boards: 'We should not criticize Taliban or Mumbai attackers as all the information we get is modified by western media, whatever attackers did is between them and Allah and we should not support evil kaffirs accusing them'. And this attitude of young Muslims makes me worried that Islam is going to be more radical in the near future.


    I've been an avid reader of one of the most mainstream Islamic websites, IslamOnline for several years now and the general tone of most of the readers who comment on articles in that period of time has become more radical, not to mention that many of the articles and the opinions oft their local journalists and ulama has also followed suit.  This, along with 9/11, 7/7,Mumbai and Lahore is what has led me to believe that for Islam it will only get worse before it gets better.

    Remember, radical Islam has been around for nearly a century now since the birth of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.  Probably even longer than that.


    Agreed, I have visited Islamonline every week (at least) now for the last 4 years, I especially read the Fatwa section and the mainpage articles and the tone is worsening. I realised this even as a Muslim.

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #40 - March 04, 2009, 04:11 PM


    I doubt it as well. Only through force will it crumble....and even then the shit you have to do is not gonna be pro-Geneva convention if you get my meaning.


    You know, while Christians & even Buddhists have very often been violent both in the past & present- during Bakhtiyar Khalji's time the Buddha's legacy & today Christ's legacy seems to emascualte societies when they desperately need to fight for their survival.

    In the 12th century in Nalanda, the Buddhists simply didn't know how to fight, they were busy with higher matters of metaphysics & intellect, which was a completely wrong approach to deal with an imperialistic force like Muhammad inspired religious conquests. There are times when you need to  Cat fight to protect your civilization & all that it stands for from barbarians bent on rooting out your way of life. Buddha's legacy left the Buddhists too soft & vulnerable to cope with Mo's forces.

    Something similar is happening to Christians' today, unfortunately, they're too guilty due to past colonizations & genocides, while Muslims don't even acknowledge their genocides in the sub Continent & elsewhere.

    Today its Christ's benign legacy emasculating the West... they let in people who bomb them on their streets yet all they do is blame themselves,& a similar attitude often prevails in India...would Saudis stand for it one moment if their guest workers started to bomb them or Pakistan stand it if its Christians\Hindus & Sikhs started bombing them?  finmad

    Islam might have a cakewalk over the glories & achievements of the present world civilization, if only because other people are too wimpish & apathetic to do anything about it... eusa_boohoo

    Remember, radical Islam has been around for nearly a century now since the birth of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.  Probably even longer than that.


    Radical Islam had been around since the inception of the faith by its Prophet. Islam started out by forcefully converting the pagans with a death threat, genocide of some Jews & compelling other to secondary status-& the gates of most countries' which were Muslim today except South East Asia were opened via jihad.

    Islam briefly realised its flaws when the West stalled its conquests after the Battles of Vienna while Western superiority made it near impossible to conquer more locations. The spent half a century alternately brooding over their failures as a supposedly Allah chosen people subjugated by barbarians or trying to reform. Then came the Muslim Brotherhood... & reform never really worked out for them.

    Even places which once had a moderate Islam-like Kashmir's Sufi Islam or the Javanese Kejawen Islam which perpetrated two dastardly attacks in Bali was subsumed under the pressure of radical Islam.They one by one joined the  bandwagon of puritanical Saudi style Islam.

    In fact, there was no true reform anywhere, only a long road down, down, down into the pit of utter radicalism. finmad

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #41 - March 04, 2009, 06:19 PM

    Isn't it ironical that while we're discussing Islam's supposedly imminent death, the hot topic amongst many Muslims is that the West is apparently dying-with what they call its  sky high divorce rates & plumetting birthrates, nudity, pornography, prostitution,teen moms, anorexics, hedonists etc while their civilization, supposedly free of these deadly sins has the neccessary vitality to slowly take over this decaying civilization.

    Thats' a scary thought, for all its faults, the Western manufactured civilization is infinitely better, hell, even George Bush, Palin & band of their merry neo cons are better than the girls' schools' bombing Talibans! furious


    I've been an avid reader of one of the most mainstream Islamic websites, IslamOnline for several years now and the general tone of most of the readers who comment on articles in that period of time has become more radical, not to mention that many of the articles and the opinions oft their local journalists and ulama has also followed suit.  This, along with 9/11, 7/7,Mumbai and Lahore is what has led me to believe that for Islam it will only get worse before it gets better.



    This appalling situation works both ways- Jihad Watch & Faith Freedom too are getting more & more shrill & rabidly anti Muslim, support for Geert Wilders is rising even in normally tolerant Netherlands,there're rabid Anti Muslims in India, brutality on supposed jihadists in Thailand & Philipines, disproportionate violence in Israel on Hamas-in short there's a lack of desire for rethinking & reconciliation from both sides. However, in the multiple conflicts of Islam v. the Rest-the Rest is definitely more sinned against than sinning.  whistling2

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #42 - March 04, 2009, 07:26 PM

    I have been wondering, what do you think the future has in store for islam? What will happen to islam eventually? will it be reformed? Personally, i think that in the future, islam will be a religion specifically for the misfits much like at how nazism has degrade to what it is today, i.e. for children of the misfits. The reason of why i came out with that conclusion is because that as the internet became widespread, more and more people became aware of the vile nature of islam through websites like this one and as people became more aware, eventually they had to make a decision, i.e. either to accept Allah as the one true god or reject him. The decent ones will be the one that had the trouble to accept him and they will, finally, reject him. The one that are able to accept allah as a god, as i see it, will be the misfits, i.e. people like criminals and gangsters.

    For the question as to why the normal decent people will eventually reject allah as a one true god is because for the surahs like the ones that potray allah abusing his power by doing the devil's work (02:07, 02:10, 06:25 and 06:125) and consenting sex with captive outside marriage (23:5-6) . I think that reformation is impossible as muslims will change at least some of the surahs in the quran. So what do you all think?   

    I do believe islam caters to the misfits, but islam also encourages and reward misfit behaviour, inversely increasing the influence of the misfits, making it beneficial to be a misfit under islamic laws.

    Step 1. It encourage misfit behavior by building a broken family path that is doomed to poverty and strife. i.e. take wealth from women, then education, then cause them to make babies before they are 18.

    Step 2. Poverty and strife make people turn more into religion. As Berb's mentioned, during strife, religion will gain back a bigger foothold.

    So although I agree that islam does appeal to misfits, islam also organizes the misfits and gives them a common purpose. And it only takes a small band of misfits to control the majority. Like in Iran for example, where the government-army (misfits) only has an approval of 5% yet they are holding the country.

    Or in Egypt, where a group of misfits (Ikhwan) managed to kick out the king 60yrs ago, assasinate a president, and today have 25% presence on the Senate, even though the egyptian constitution forbids religious parties. And before someone jumps and clain the 25% were elected, I remind you of hamas and the first iraqui election, where, the misfits hudled around the voting boothes and intimidated the voters they did not know into walking away, or paid them with Saudi money. They give you a cell phone, and you are supposed to take a picture of the vote card you made, if they like the picture, you get some cash.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #43 - March 04, 2009, 07:27 PM

    they fail to condemn the terrorist activities.


    In my experience that is not true, Calm. All the Muslims I know and knew always condemned the terrorist attacks. It always annoyed me the way the TV cameras showed people dancing when 911 happened. I worked in an Islamic School for God's sake! You'd think I'd have seen lots of Muslims being happy about it if that was true. The vast majority immediately ondemned it. It was condemned in a special whole school assembly the next day - and the Sheikh condemned it in the Friday prayers. This was the same in every single attack after that. Also, don't forget that many terrorist attacks kill Muslims!
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #44 - March 04, 2009, 07:38 PM

    Problem is the hardliners who supported it made far more noise and always do.

    The bad apples always stand out more than the good.

    You know my experience was being surrounded by celebrators, and muslims who were horrified, but were shot down by others around them saying "we can't judge them because they are muslims"

    You get called jew lover if you speak out sometimes.

    Also if you are speaking of the majority of muslims in THIS country, fair do, but the vast majority of muslims globally?  that's another story isn't it?

    The crowds that celebrated it were humungous hass, it was like wembley arena in each shot shown.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #45 - March 04, 2009, 07:43 PM


    Also if you are speaking of the majority of muslims in THIS country, fair do, but the vast majority of muslims globally?  that's another story isn't it?

    The crowds that celebrated it were humungous hass, it was like wembley arena in each shot shown.




    Agreed. Not all Muslims are fortunate enough to have lived in an environment like yours Hassan, an environment wereby the 9/11 attack was condemned and the people truly wanted dialogue, understanding and peace.

    I honestly only ever knew Muslims who celebrated the attack (either in public or secretely) or the ones who kept quite. I have known Muslims who occasionaly mention terrorism and how it's bad in passing, but that's about it.

    Lucky Hassan.

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #46 - March 04, 2009, 08:09 PM

    they fail to condemn the terrorist activities.


    In my experience that is not true, Calm. All the Muslims I know and knew always condemned the terrorist attacks. It always annoyed me the way the TV cameras showed people dancing when 911 happened. I worked in an Islamic School for God's sake! You'd think I'd have seen lots of Muslims being happy about it if that was true. The vast majority immediately ondemned it. It was condemned in a special whole school assembly the next day - and the Sheikh condemned it in the Friday prayers. This was the same in every single attack after that. Also, don't forget that many terrorist attacks kill Muslims!

    In Toronto, as I am sure it is in England, I have never ever seen an islamic gathering condeming or criticizing a muslim. All the islamic 'peace rally' were done for the purpose of 'correcting the perception of Westerners'. The mainstream idea is that, the perception of the west of islam is wrong, and once the perception is corrected, then the problems of islam will go away.

    I am sure however, that some muslim gathering were made to criticize a muslim, but the attendance was not important enough I guess for me to notice it.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #47 - March 04, 2009, 08:10 PM


    Also if you are speaking of the majority of muslims in THIS country, fair do, but the vast majority of muslims globally?  that's another story isn't it?

    The crowds that celebrated it were humungous hass, it was like wembley arena in each shot shown.



    Well I wasn't in Egypt or Morocco or Pakistan, and I wouldn't read too much into mass demos in Muslim countries, they tend to be orchestrated either by the govt - or organizations sanctioned by the govt. When the Mullahs in Iran want a demo in support of whatever they only have to click their fingers and you have crowds of black veils hitting the streets. But there are a lot more Iranians in their homes who don't support them.

    When Hamas officials tell you to get out on the street and raise your fist - or hand out sweets to kids - who is going to say no?

    I think that as ex-Muslims if we can't understand the plight of ordinary Muslims - many of whom are doubting Muslims, but are just unable to make that step - for whatever reason - then who can understand them and empathise with them?

    A great many ordinary Muslims are between a rock and hard place - between bullying fundamentalists and those who paint them with the same brush as the fundamentalists.

    Like I say I think we at least ought to be able to appreciate their position since most of us were in that position not so long ago.
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #48 - March 04, 2009, 08:16 PM



    Like I say I think we at least ought to be able to appreciate their position since most of us were in that position not so long ago.


    Oh I do Hass, I know it takes alot to step out from the shadow of the loud hardliners who try to control the quieter ones, I remain optimistic that more and more will step out from the shadow and refuse to stay quiet anymore.  Smiley

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #49 - March 04, 2009, 08:17 PM

    In Toronto, as I am sure it is in England, I have never ever seen an islamic gathering condeming or criticizing a muslim. All the islamic 'peace rally' were done for the purpose of 'correcting the perception of Westerners'. The mainstream idea is that, the perception of the west of islam is wrong, and once the perception is corrected, then the problems of islam will go away.

    I am sure however, that some muslim gathering were made to criticize a muslim, but the attendance was not important enough I guess for me to notice it.



    I was talking about individuals condemning the terrorist attacks - most I know certainly did - and do!

    As for demos - yes you are right, they haven't gone onto the streets to condemn the attacks, at least not in the same way they poured onto the streets against the cartoons etc...

  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #50 - March 04, 2009, 08:58 PM

    I must be the most optimistic person here, because I think in a millennium Islam will be nothing but an extinct cult, just a dead and bad memory.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #51 - March 04, 2009, 09:32 PM


    Also if you are speaking of the majority of muslims in THIS country, fair do, but the vast majority of muslims globally?  that's another story isn't it?

    The crowds that celebrated it were humungous hass, it was like wembley arena in each shot shown.



    Well I wasn't in Egypt or Morocco or Pakistan, and I wouldn't read too much into mass demos in Muslim countries, they tend to be orchestrated either by the govt - or organizations sanctioned by the govt. When the Mullahs in Iran want a demo in support of whatever they only have to click their fingers and you have crowds of black veils hitting the streets. But there are a lot more Iranians in their homes who don't support them.

    When Hamas officials tell you to get out on the street and raise your fist - or hand out sweets to kids - who is going to say no?

    I think that as ex-Muslims if we can't understand the plight of ordinary Muslims - many of whom are doubting Muslims, but are just unable to make that step - for whatever reason - then who can understand them and empathise with them?

    A great many ordinary Muslims are between a rock and hard place - between bullying fundamentalists and those who paint them with the same brush as the fundamentalists.

    Like I say I think we at least ought to be able to appreciate their position since most of us were in that position not so long ago.

    That is an oversimplification. The demos in islamic countries mostly tend to be extremely spontaneous. No arab leader likes to see people gathering in a demo of any kind. Iran is a bit more organized then the rest and i can concede they will plan demonstrations. The rest of the Umma. Never.

    And for years after 9/11, guys we carrying pictures of bin ladin in their wallets. That was also a spontaneous act.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #52 - March 04, 2009, 10:29 PM


    Also if you are speaking of the majority of muslims in THIS country, fair do, but the vast majority of muslims globally?  that's another story isn't it?

    The crowds that celebrated it were humungous hass, it was like wembley arena in each shot shown.



    Well I wasn't in Egypt or Morocco or Pakistan, and I wouldn't read too much into mass demos in Muslim countries, they tend to be orchestrated either by the govt - or organizations sanctioned by the govt. When the Mullahs in Iran want a demo in support of whatever they only have to click their fingers and you have crowds of black veils hitting the streets. But there are a lot more Iranians in their homes who don't support them.

    When Hamas officials tell you to get out on the street and raise your fist - or hand out sweets to kids - who is going to say no?

    I think that as ex-Muslims if we can't understand the plight of ordinary Muslims - many of whom are doubting Muslims, but are just unable to make that step - for whatever reason - then who can understand them and empathise with them?

    A great many ordinary Muslims are between a rock and hard place - between bullying fundamentalists and those who paint them with the same brush as the fundamentalists.

    Like I say I think we at least ought to be able to appreciate their position since most of us were in that position not so long ago.

    That is an oversimplification. The demos in islamic countries mostly tend to be extremely spontaneous. No arab leader likes to see people gathering in a demo of any kind. Iran is a bit more organized then the rest and i can concede they will plan demonstrations. The rest of the Umma. Never.

    And for years after 9/11, guys we carrying pictures of bin ladin in their wallets. That was also a spontaneous act.


    Maybe, but I never witnessed much support for 911 around me apart from a few idiots and supporters of Hizb or ppl like Sheikh Faisal - but most Muslims I knew looked down on such ppl - so you can't generalise.
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #53 - March 04, 2009, 10:39 PM

    Yes but by your own admission you weren't in the Islamic countries concerned and you mostly hung around with very liberal Muslims, so your examples are limited.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #54 - March 05, 2009, 02:08 AM


    Also if you are speaking of the majority of muslims in THIS country, fair do, but the vast majority of muslims globally?  that's another story isn't it?

    The crowds that celebrated it were humungous hass, it was like wembley arena in each shot shown.



    Well I wasn't in Egypt or Morocco or Pakistan, and I wouldn't read too much into mass demos in Muslim countries, they tend to be orchestrated either by the govt - or organizations sanctioned by the govt. When the Mullahs in Iran want a demo in support of whatever they only have to click their fingers and you have crowds of black veils hitting the streets. But there are a lot more Iranians in their homes who don't support them.

    When Hamas officials tell you to get out on the street and raise your fist - or hand out sweets to kids - who is going to say no?

    I think that as ex-Muslims if we can't understand the plight of ordinary Muslims - many of whom are doubting Muslims, but are just unable to make that step - for whatever reason - then who can understand them and empathise with them?

    A great many ordinary Muslims are between a rock and hard place - between bullying fundamentalists and those who paint them with the same brush as the fundamentalists.

    Like I say I think we at least ought to be able to appreciate their position since most of us were in that position not so long ago.

    That is an oversimplification. The demos in islamic countries mostly tend to be extremely spontaneous. No arab leader likes to see people gathering in a demo of any kind. Iran is a bit more organized then the rest and i can concede they will plan demonstrations. The rest of the Umma. Never.

    And for years after 9/11, guys we carrying pictures of bin ladin in their wallets. That was also a spontaneous act.


    Maybe, but I never witnessed much support for 911 around me apart from a few idiots and supporters of Hizb or ppl like Sheikh Faisal - but most Muslims I knew looked down on such ppl - so you can't generalise.

    True. I should have clarified i was still talking about back home. Where the media is mostly condeming any UN/US interference in the genocides in Darfur as an attack and interference on muslims and muslim lands.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #55 - March 05, 2009, 09:27 AM

    The ancient University of Nalanda, which was once a great seat of higher learning-the Oxford & Harvard combined in its day, where both Indian & Chinese & other Asian scholars held debates, was annihilated by Islam one sad day, just like a lot of other civilizations. The creative, multicultural & intellectual life at the University was brought to an abrupt & rude halt by people who had no appreciation of the finer things of life, whose derived their zeal from a new iconoclastic faith, which had itself been created by rudely destroying the gods & culture of the Meccans.Life ebbed out of this great University-students from all over  Asia ceased coming. ghost Yet this incident is never remembered or apologised for by the Muslims, although Europe has made Holocaust denial a punishable offence. finmad

    Today, there's a paranoid attitude amongst Muslims who cling desperately to an archaic way of life or alternately take to terrorizing others, coz they fear that that their culture is destined to be swallowed up by the process of globalization, & American cultural power. The world is being homogenized, the world's laws, beliefs about gender, clothes & attitudes made uniform-& this intensifies fears amongst people whose way of life seems doomed. Its somehow poetic justice that the people who ravaged Nalanda & other glorious civilizations are getting a taste of their own medicine, but in a very different way. hahaha

    Today Muslims fear for their way of life, not through an attack like their imperialistic jihadi days- but through the soft power the rest of the world yields, which even seduces many of their own tribe away from the arid desert brand of Islamic lifestyle, & leads their women to rebel & discard the modes of dress Islam imposes.


    Will Islam someday join this Club? Does its future lie in the waste of history? 

    nowscape.com/atheism/dead_gods.htm

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #56 - March 05, 2009, 09:29 AM

    I think if you wait long enough it's sure to be consigned to the dustbin. The only question is "How long?".

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #57 - March 05, 2009, 10:01 AM

    That link about the graveyard of dead gods doesn't work.  Cry

    Here's a summary:
     Where is the graveyard of dead gods? What lingering mourner waters their mounds? There was a time when Jupiter was the king of the gods, and any man who doubted his puissance was ipso facto a barbarian and an ignoramus.  But where in all the world is there a man who worships Jupiter today? And who of Huitzilopochtli? In one year - and it is no more than  five  hundred years ago - 50,000 youths and maidens were slain in sacrifice to him. Today, if he is remembered at all, it is only by some vagrant savage in  the depths of the Mexican forest. Huitzilopochtli, like many other gods, had  no human father; his mother was a virtuous widow; he was born of an
    apparently innocent flirtation that she carried out with the sun. When he frowned, his father, the sun, stood still.  When he roared with rage, earthquakes engulfed whole cities. When he thirsted he was watered with 10,000 gallons of human blood. But today Huitzilopochtli is as magnificently  forgotten as Allen G. Thurman. Once the peer of Allah, Buddha and Wotan, he  is now the peer of Richmond P. Hobson, Alton B. Parker,
    Adelina Patti,  General Weyler and Tom Sharkey.

          Speaking of Huitzilopochtli recalls his brother Tezcatilpoca.
    Tezcatilpoca was almost as powerful; he consumed 25,000 virgins a year.
    Lead me to his tomb: I would weep, and hang a couronne des perles. But who
    knows where it is? Or where the grave of Quetzalcoatl is? Or Xiehtecuthli?
    Or Centeotl, that sweet one? Or Tlazolteotl, the goddess of love? Of
    Mictlan? Or Xipe? Or all the host of Tzitzimitles? Where are their bones?
    Where is the willow on which they hung their harps? In what forlorn and
    unheard-of Hell do they await their resurrection morn? Who enjoys their
    residuary estates? Or that of Dis, whom Caesar found to be the chief god of
    the Celts? Of that of Tarves, the bull? Or that of Moccos, the pig? Or that
    of Epona, the mare? Or that of Mullo, the celestial jackass? There was a
    time when the Irish revered all these gods, but today even the drunkest
    Irishman laughs at them.


          But they have company in oblivion: the Hell of dead gods is as crowded
    as the Presbyterian Hell for babies. Damona is there, and Esus, and
    Drunemeton, and Silvana, and Dervones, and Adsalluta, and
    Belisima, and Uxellimus, and Borvo, and Grannos, and Mogons. All mighty
    gods  in their day, worshipped by millions, full of demands and impositions, able
    to bind and loose - all gods of the first class. Men labored for generations
    to build vast temples to them - temples with stones as large as hay-wagons.
    The business of interpreting their whims occupied thousands of priests,
    bishops, archbishops. To doubt them was to die, usually at the stake.
    Armies  took to the field to defend them against infidels; villages were burned,
    women and children butchered, cattle were driven off. Yet in the end they
    all withered and died, and today there is none so poor to do them reverence.

          What has become of Sutekh, once the high god of the whole Nile Valley?
    What has become of:
          Resheph                       Baal
          Anath                         Astarte
          Ashtoreth                     Hadad
          Nebo                          Dagon
          Melek                         Yau
          Ahijah                        Amon-Re
          Isis                          Osiris
          Ptah                          Molech?


           All there were gods of the highest eminence. Many of them are mentioned
    with fear and trembling in the Old Testament. They ranked, five or six thousand
    years ago, with Yahweh Himself; the worst of them stood far higher than
    Thor. Yet they have all gone down the chute, and with them the following:

           Arianrod                      Nuada Argetlam
          Morrigu                       Tagd
          Govannon                      Goibniu
          Gunfled                       Odin
          Dagda                         Ogma
          Ogryvan                       Marzin
          Dea Dia                       Mara
          Iuno Lucina                   Diana of  Ephesus
          Saturn                        Robigus
          Furrina                       Pluto
          Cronos                        Vesta
          Engurra                       Zer-panitu
          Belus                         Merodach
          Ubilulu                       Elum
          U-dimmer-an-kia               Marduk
          U-sab-sib                     Nin
          U-Mersi                       Persephone
          Tammuz                        Istar
          Venus                         Lagas
          Beltis                        Nirig
          Nusku                         En-Mersi
          Aa                            Assur
          Sin                           Beltu
          Apsu                          Kuski-banda
          Elali                         Nin-azu
          Mami                          Qarradu
          Zaraqu                        Ueras
          Zagaga 

    Rashna's opinion: Long & interesting list, isn't it? Makes you realise nothing's permanent, even immortal gods... dance

    @ osmanthus, but the situation can't continue like this indefinitely, they can't get out of the rut, & they're killing loads of innocents in the meantime with almost complete impunity.  Angry

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #58 - March 05, 2009, 03:06 PM

    Rashna - I liked the irony behind the phrase "Graveyard of Gods".  Makes me wonder how/where do you bury a dead God?  How do you pay your last respects to a dead God?  How does one die?

    None of these questions matter of course, as Gods dont die - in fact they were never born and only lived in our consiousness.  Their death is simply caused by removing them from our imagination, or replacing them with something stronger and more deserving of our sycophancy. 

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: The future of Islam
     Reply #59 - March 05, 2009, 04:09 PM

    That link about the graveyard of dead gods doesn't work. 
     
    Here's a summary:
     Where is the graveyard of dead gods? What lingering mourner waters their mounds? There was a time when Jupiter was the king of the gods, and any man who doubted his puissance was ipso facto a barbarian and an ignoramus.  But where in all the world is there a man who worships Jupiter today? And who of Huitzilopochtli? In one year - and it is no more than  five  hundred years ago - 50,000 youths and maidens were slain in sacrifice to him. Today, if he is remembered at all, it is only by some vagrant savage in  the depths of the Mexican forest. Huitzilopochtli, like many other gods, had  no human father; his mother was a virtuous widow; he was born of an
    apparently innocent flirtation that she carried out with the sun. When he frowned, his father, the sun, stood still.  When he roared with rage, earthquakes engulfed whole cities. When he thirsted he was watered with 10,000 gallons of human blood. But today Huitzilopochtli is as magnificently  forgotten as Allen G. Thurman. Once the peer of Allah, Buddha and Wotan, he  is now the peer of Richmond P. Hobson, Alton B. Parker,
    Adelina Patti,  General Weyler and Tom Sharkey.

          Speaking of Huitzilopochtli recalls his brother Tezcatilpoca.
    Tezcatilpoca was almost as powerful; he consumed 25,000 virgins a year.
    Lead me to his tomb: I would weep, and hang a couronne des perles. But who
    knows where it is? Or where the grave of Quetzalcoatl is? Or Xiehtecuthli?
    Or Centeotl, that sweet one? Or Tlazolteotl, the goddess of love? Of
    Mictlan? Or Xipe? Or all the host of Tzitzimitles? Where are their bones?
    Where is the willow on which they hung their harps? In what forlorn and
    unheard-of Hell do they await their resurrection morn? Who enjoys their
    residuary estates? Or that of Dis, whom Caesar found to be the chief god of
    the Celts? Of that of Tarves, the bull? Or that of Moccos, the pig? Or that
    of Epona, the mare? Or that of Mullo, the celestial jackass? There was a
    time when the Irish revered all these gods, but today even the drunkest
    Irishman laughs at them.


          But they have company in oblivion: the Hell of dead gods is as crowded
    as the Presbyterian Hell for babies. Damona is there, and Esus, and
    Drunemeton, and Silvana, and Dervones, and Adsalluta, and
    Belisima, and Uxellimus, and Borvo, and Grannos, and Mogons. All mighty
    gods  in their day, worshipped by millions, full of demands and impositions, able
    to bind and loose - all gods of the first class. Men labored for generations
    to build vast temples to them - temples with stones as large as hay-wagons.
    The business of interpreting their whims occupied thousands of priests,
    bishops, archbishops. To doubt them was to die, usually at the stake.
    Armies  took to the field to defend them against infidels; villages were burned,
    women and children butchered, cattle were driven off. Yet in the end they
    all withered and died, and today there is none so poor to do them reverence.

          What has become of Sutekh, once the high god of the whole Nile Valley?
    What has become of:
          Resheph                       BaalCry
          Anath                         Astarte
          Ashtoreth                     Hadad
          Nebo                          Dagon
          Melek                         Yau
          Ahijah                        Amon-Re
          Isis                          Osiris
          Ptah                          Molech?


           All there were gods of the highest eminence. Many of them are mentioned
    with fear and trembling in the Old Testament. They ranked, five or six thousand
    years ago, with Yahweh Himself; the worst of them stood far higher than
    Thor. Yet they have all gone down the chute, and with them the following:

           Arianrod                      Nuada Argetlam
          Morrigu                       Tagd
          Govannon                      Goibniu
          Gunfled                       Odin
          Dagda                         Ogma
          Ogryvan                       Marzin
          Dea Dia                       Mara
          Iuno Lucina                   Diana of  Ephesus
          Saturn                        Robigus
          Furrina                       Pluto
          Cronos                        Vesta
          Engurra                       Zer-panitu
          Belus                         Merodach
          Ubilulu                       Elum
          U-dimmer-an-kia               Marduk
          U-sab-sib                     Nin
          U-Mersi                       Persephone
          Tammuz                        Istar
          Venus                         Lagas
          Beltis                        Nirig
          Nusku                         En-Mersi
          Aa                            Assur
          Sin                           Beltu
          Apsu                          Kuski-banda
          Elali                         Nin-azu
          Mami                          Qarradu
          Zaraqu                        Ueras
          Zagaga 

    Rashna's opinion: Long & interesting list, isn't it? Makes you realise nothing's permanent, even immortal gods... dance

    @ osmanthus, but the situation can't continue like this indefinitely, they can't get out of the rut, & they're killing loads of innocents in the meantime with almost complete impunity.  Angry

    Yes but Ahura Mazda is coming back, isn't he now you Jezebel Smiley

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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