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Theme Changer

 Topic: May Allah Bless Basmalah

 (Read 8653 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • May Allah Bless Basmalah
     OP - March 07, 2009, 02:35 PM

    I know many have already watched it, but I wanna spread it again to let you see how we (Middle Easterns) get eductaed from da beginning.  grin12




    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL0C2QvqIlo

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #1 - March 07, 2009, 03:14 PM

    @ Emerald

    Thanks for the video. Such a cute little girl, so small, already veiled & taught to hate. finmad

    If & when these people begin questioning Islam, Prophet Muhammad will be a very good reason for them to dislike Islam. Christian kids' taught to hate Jews were taught:

    Jews were baaad, they killed our Jesus!

    Muslim kids are taught:

    Jews were baaad, our Mohammed killed themgrin12

    So probably some Christian kids who've become skeptics will still like Jesus, where Muslim kids will hate Mo himself.  bunny

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #2 - March 07, 2009, 03:20 PM

    Without doubt hatred and paranoia towards Jews is widespread amongst Arabs. My dad blamed them for everything.

    Arabs - and Muslims in general need to admit it and confront it.

    In fairness it also has to be said that hatred of Arabs is quite widespread amongst Jews.

    Jews also need to admit and confront it too!

  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #3 - March 07, 2009, 03:22 PM

    Muslim kids are taught:

    Jews were baaad, our Mohammed killed themgrin12

    =============

    Cheesy

    Good one,

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #4 - March 07, 2009, 03:25 PM


    In fairness it also has to be said that hatred of Arabs is quite widespread amongst Jews.

    Jews also need to admit and confront it too!




     Afro Considering a certain someone wiped off 6 million Jews claiming to do the "Lord's work" just 60 years ago its a little unfair for Jews to now blame all Arabs & Muslims.

    I also think had Jews the asperity to demand a tiny portion of Europe as their homeland 100 years ago like they took Israel, European Christians would wipe every one of them off the face of the Earth. European religious tolerance towards all is a comparatively recent phenomenon, it has existed for a fraction of Christianity's history.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #5 - March 07, 2009, 03:36 PM

    I've seen this vid before.  I really hate seeing little girls in hijab.  There is NO injunction for it no matter what the Islamists say!

    I think little Basmallah was pretty much fed her lines by the interviewer or someone behind the scenes before they started taping although I do know that they pretty much learn by rote in the ME but it didn't appear that she was giving her answers with much conviction, she seemed pretty shy and apprehensive about being on camera at all!

    I agree with Hassan that many Jews do have an inordinate hatred of Arabs just like most Arabs hate Jews.  I remember my mom telling me never to marry an Arab or man from the ME when I was little, of course this was right after watching Not Without My Daughter.  Mother sure had to learn a lot about accepting Muslims after I converted and married one! 

    Both sides need to stop blaming each other and sort out their own problems, but unfortunately that is always going to be easier said than done!

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #6 - March 07, 2009, 03:38 PM

    Without doubt hatred and paranoia towards Jews is widespread amongst Arabs. My dad blamed them for everything.

    Arabs - and Muslims in general need to admit it and confront it.

    In fairness it also has to be said that hatred of Arabs is quite widespread amongst Jews.

    Jews also need to admit and confront it too!



    =============

    Jews in general?

    I doubt.... Roll Eyes


    I wonder why in NYC some Jews encouraged me to say with them a few words to MTV about peace and spreading peace among Muslims and Jews especially in Palestine/Israel,


    I wonder how those Jews professors in one of NY's schools treat Muslims and Saudi's in particular extremely nicely, as a matter of fact, 70% of the faculty were Jews and many were practicing Jews...! and we (Saudi's) never encountered any sort of prejudice whatsoever,

    Actually the school has a main branch in Israel, and Muslims have a Musalla (little Mosque) in NY's branch, and even a lounge during Ramadan.

    Yes Hassan, I'm sure some Jews do hate Muslims, but sure also that some Xtians do, Hindus, etc;


    Here in the Middle East it's very ugly tho, very vivid image of hatred 2ward Jews.


    I can't imagine Israeli or Jews students being treated fairly by a bunch of Saudi professors some of whom are religious.


    I'm willing to change my opinion if I see anything like the clip above, from Jews against Muslims.

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #7 - March 07, 2009, 03:41 PM

    I agree with Hassan that many Jews do have an inordinate hatred of Arabs just like most Arabs hate Jews. 

    =========

    Yes,

    that's what I'm looking for,

    any clip for a little Hanna on a widespread channel being taught Muslims are this or that? (for example)??

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #8 - March 07, 2009, 03:50 PM

    Jews also need to admit and confront it too!

    I think anti-Semitism in the Islamic world is much more widespread, venomous, and phrenetic than anti-Arab sentiments amongst Jews. While I dismiss the concept of Islamophobia, anti-Arab prejudice is plain racism, and must be confronted as such. However, the two phenomena are not comparable.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #9 - March 07, 2009, 03:53 PM

    Quote
    I think little Basmallah was pretty much fed her lines by the interviewer or someone behind the scenes before they started taping although I do know that they pretty much learn by rote in the ME but it didn't appear that she was giving her answers with much conviction, she seemed pretty shy and apprehensive about being on camera at all!


    That's what I thought looking at her.  It reminded me of an episode of the Jerry Springer Show about parents who raise their kids to be racist.  There was this one couple on stage with their daughter, about the same age as that girl.  They were telling her to say to the camera that there's no such thing as a black man or a black woman, there's just men, women and niggers. 

    The kid looked like she was thoroughly embarrassed, and she just repeated her lines mechanically like that one did.  Its child abuse in both cases, IMO.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #10 - March 07, 2009, 04:05 PM

    Without doubt hatred and paranoia towards Jews is widespread amongst Arabs. My dad blamed them for everything.

    Arabs - and Muslims in general need to admit it and confront it.

    In fairness it also has to be said that hatred of Arabs is quite widespread amongst Jews.

    Jews also need to admit and confront it too!



    =============

    Jews in general?

    I doubt.... Roll Eyes


    I wonder why in NYC some Jews encouraged me to say with them a few words to MTV about peace and spreading peace among Muslims and Jews especially in Palestine/Israel,


    I wonder how those Jews professors in one of NY's schools treat Muslims and Saudi's in particular extremely nicely, as a matter of fact, 70% of the faculty were Jews and many were practicing Jews...! and we (Saudi's) never encountered any sort of prejudice whatsoever,

    Actually the school has a main branch in Israel, and Muslims have a Musalla (little Mosque) in NY's branch, and even a lounge during Ramadan.

    Yes Hassan, I'm sure some Jews do hate Muslims, but sure also that some Xtians do, Hindus, etc;


    Here in the Middle East it's very ugly tho, very vivid image of hatred 2ward Jews.


    I can't imagine Israeli or Jews students being treated fairly by a bunch of Saudi professors some of whom are religious.


    I'm willing to change my opinion if I see anything like the clip above, from Jews against Muslims.


    Yes of course, one shouldn't generalise, you are right. I have also known Jews who clearly didn't hate Arabs or Muslims.

    I remember meeting Daniel Pearl's father at Islamia School. He was on a mission to build bridges between Muslims and Jews.

    I wonder how many Muslim Fathers would go to a Jewish school to build bridges after having their son beheaded by Jews?

    But I have also known Jews who have shown extreme and irrational hatred of Arabs. One incident directed at me during my teens sticks in my mind because of the sheer unprovoked nature and injustice of it.
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #11 - March 07, 2009, 04:08 PM

    They were telling her to say to the camera that there's no such thing as a black man or a black woman, there's just men, women and niggers. 

    Thats one episode of Jerry Springer I missed thankfully.. otherwise it would have bugged me.
    I love Jerry Springer, shame they changed the original format which was much better. 


    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #12 - March 07, 2009, 04:13 PM

    Jews also need to admit and confront it too!

    I think anti-Semitism in the Islamic world is much more widespread, venomous, and phrenetic than anti-Arab sentiments amongst Jews. While I dismiss the concept of Islamophobia, anti-Arab prejudice is plain racism, and must be confronted as such. However, the two phenomena are not comparable.


    I won't argue with you that anti-Jew sentiment amongst Arabs is worse.

    And Arabs and Muslims must accept they have and pass on these prejudices and actively confront it and not accept it in private as well as public.

    I agree 100%, Zaephon.

    But that doesn't mean Jews don't need to confront their own prejudices.

    Though prejudice amongst Jews towards Arabs may be less - it does exist - and it also needs to be addressed by Jews.
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #13 - March 07, 2009, 05:24 PM

    But I have also known Jews who have shown extreme and irrational hatred of Arabs. One incident directed at me during my teens sticks in my mind because of the sheer unprovoked nature and injustice of it.

    ==========

    That's what I'm talking about here, those who show extreme hatred, those Jews, Muslims, Xtians, whites, browns, blues, whoever,

    those are the public, ppl like us;

    but are there any organized Jewish bodies that educate things like what Basmalah had been taught?

    any channel dedicated to that?

    (Muslims have many)


    I'm sure some Jews teach such things in their houses maybe, but I doubt they do it thru the media.

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #14 - March 07, 2009, 06:31 PM

    I'm sure some Jews teach such things in their houses maybe, but I doubt they do it thru the media.


    Yes, I think I would agree with you on that.
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #15 - March 07, 2009, 08:50 PM

    I'm sorry but I am going to have to disagree with everything that I read in this thread. I do not believe that Islam and Muslims are inherently antisemitic, I believe that the antisemitism that is found in the Muslim world is as a result of Zionism and has evolved from Anti-Zionism. Islam has a history of being relatively tolerant to Jews, as opposed to the Christian world, which was notoriously intolerant of Jews up until the middle of the 20th Century and antisemitism still exists in pockets in the West.

    The antisemitism that is seen in the Arab world today is a result of people seeing millions of people that they identify as "their people" being massacred or made homeless and put into refugee camps to make space for another group of people to settle in a place that was there home for more than a thousand years.

    And to Zaephon who dismisses the concept of Islamaphobia, Islamaphobia is very real and, in the western world, Muslims are being persecuted because of it. Just check on the British National Party website for evidence of Islamaphobia

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #16 - March 07, 2009, 09:16 PM

    The antisemitism that is seen in the Arab world today is a result of people seeing millions of people that they identify as "their people" being massacred or made homeless and put into refugee camps to make space for another group of people to settle in a place that was there home for more than a thousand years.


    I would like to agree with you.

    But in all honesty I can't.

    Hatred of Jews goes way back long before Palestine.
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #17 - March 07, 2009, 09:17 PM

    I'm sorry but I am going to have to disagree with everything that I read in this thread. I do not believe that Islam and Muslims are inherently antisemitic, I believe that the antisemitism that is found in the Muslim world is as a result of Zionism and has evolved from Anti-Zionism. Islam has a history of being relatively tolerant to Jews, as opposed to the Christian world, which was notoriously intolerant of Jews up until the middle of the 20th Century and antisemitism still exists in pockets in the West.

    You are quite wrong. First of all, any relative tolerance "as opposed to the Christian world" is not real tolerance, it's just relative bigotry. Muslims have persecuted Jews throughout history. Mohammad exterminated a Jewish tribe personally. Even the "enlightened" Moors in Spain were notorious for anti-Semitic pogroms. The Quran is full of anti-Jewish caricatures and accusations. An atmosphere of Judeophobia permeates Islamic scripture and contemporary Islamic society alike.

    Have you ever been to the Middle East? Even in Turkey, which is supposedly more tolerant because it's between Europe and the Middle East, anti-Semitism is rampant and takes many absurd, violent forms. Have you ever debated with Muslims blabbering about how Jews drink blood, or cause earthquakes? Conspiracy theory literature, with a focus on anti-Semitic myths, are produced and consumed daily. Even seemingly educated people see nothing wrong in making statements like "I hate Jews because they control the planet."

    Islam has its own phenomenal Judeophobia. It is true that nationalist sentiments merged with, and supplemented, traditional anti-Semitism in the last century. However, the assumption that innocent, tolerant Muslims are just reacting to the oppressive policies of the evil Jewish entity is dangerously naive.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #18 - March 07, 2009, 09:35 PM

    Here is a quote from the 14th Century scholar Ibn Qayyim Al-Jawziyya who is not untypical of many Muslim's attitude towards Jews.

    I hardly have to point out that he is of course writing long before the creation of Israel.

    "The nation upon whom is the Divine wrath are the Jews, the people of lies, slander, betrayal, conspiracy and trickery, the killers of Prophets and consumers of usury and bribes. They have the most evil hearts of all nations, and the worst attitude. They are the farthest removed from (divine) Mercy and the closest to (divine) wrath. Their way is enmity and stirring up hatred. They represent the house of witchcraft, lies and trickery. They do not see anything wrong in rejecting and disbelieving in Prophets whom they did not like. With regard to a believer, they respect not the ties, either of kinship or of covenant. They do not respect the rights of those who agree with them, or show any compassion towards them, nor do they show any justice or fairness to those who work with them. There is no safety or security for those who mix with them, and there is no sincerity towards those who use their services. The most evil of them is the one who is most intelligent, and the cleverest one among them is the one who cheats the most. The one who is good at heart ? which it is unlikely to find among them ? is not a Jew in any real sense. They are the most bad-tempered of people, with the gloomiest houses and the filthiest courtyards. They have very bad manners ? their greeting is a curse, and meeting them is bad news. Their slogan is wrath and they are filled with hatred."
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #19 - March 07, 2009, 10:01 PM

    I was not saying that Islam and Muslims have ever been tolerant of Jews by todays standards; that is shown by the Dhimmi Tax imposed on Jews. But what I am saying is that up until the middle of the 20th century, relatively speaking, the Muslim world was more tolerant of Jews than the West. Under Islamic Law, being Jewish cannot be punished by the law. Under Islamic Law, Jews may practice their religion, so long as they pay the Dhimmi Tax. Of course there were pogroms against the Jews in the Islamic World, but it was nowhere near on the same scale as in Europe at the time.

    Jews were expelled from European countries on on numerous occasions, often seeking refuge in Islamic lands. During the Spanish Inquisition, the Jews mainly emigrated to Portugal and Morocco. By modern standards, Islamic law would be considered intolerant of Jews but throughout the Middle Ages and Early Modern Period, it was relatively more tolerant than European attitudes to Jews.

    Antisemitism and antisemitic ideas are rife in the Islamic world now, but I believe that religion has been confused with Politics and this is more to do with the persecution of Muslims by a Jewish state - Anti zionism has developed into antisemitism.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #20 - March 07, 2009, 10:16 PM

    @ aliadiere;

    Who said Europe was Utopia?


    Speaking about Jews in Andalus and how they were seeking refuge in Islamic lands (often), Please provide citations and/or references (from the mother-books of Islam) to prove that.


    Maybe, just maybe, Muslims were a bit less prejudice against Jews b4 the 20th century.

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #21 - March 07, 2009, 10:21 PM

    You are quite wrong. First of all, any relative tolerance "as opposed to the Christian world" is not real tolerance, it's just relative bigotry. Muslims have persecuted Jews throughout history. Mohammad exterminated a Jewish tribe personally. Even the "enlightened" Moors in Spain were notorious for anti-Semitic pogroms. The Quran is full of anti-Jewish caricatures and accusations. An atmosphere of Judeophobia permeates Islamic scripture and contemporary Islamic society alike.


    Muhammed exterminated an entire Jewish tribe. I agree it was barbaric and wrong, but they were not killed for being Jewish. They were killed for breaking a pact with Muhammad.

    The Spanish Moors were not notorious for antisemitic pogroms - There were 2 antisemitic Pogroms, both in the 11th Century, in nearly 800 years of Muslim presence in Spain. This does not make them notorious. That is like saying that Germany is notorious for massacring Jews, even though you only really mean the Nazis. Jews did have less rights than Muslims, but they were tolerated a lot more than in the rest of Europe, and "The Golden Age of Jewish Culture in the Iberian Peninsula" was during Muslim rule.


    At no point did I say that Islam was not antisemitic. However, antisemitism in the Muslim world today is largely to do with the Israel/Palestine conflict.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #22 - March 07, 2009, 10:23 PM

    Quote from: aliadiere
    Antisemitism and antisemitic ideas are rife in the Islamic world now, but I believe that religion has been confused with Politics and this is more to do with the persecution of Muslims by a Jewish state - Anti zionism has developed into antisemitism.

    So, back to the "innocent Muslims venting off their righteous wrath against evil Zionist entity" theory. Arab states have expelled and persecuted Mizrahi Jews, does this give Israel the right to preach vitriolic hatred against Arabs? Also, do you think there are no Christian Palestinians at all?

    It is true that religion and politics have been conflated in the Middle East, but throughout the history of Islam, religion and politics have always been synonymous.  

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #23 - March 07, 2009, 10:37 PM

    @ aliadiere;

    Who said Europe was Utopia?


    Speaking about Jews in Andalus and how they were seeking refuge in Islamic lands (often), Please provide citations and/or references (from the mother-books of Islam) to prove that.


    Maybe, just maybe, Muslims were a bit less prejudice against Jews b4 the 20th century.


    Edict of Expulsion in 1492. All Jews were ordered to leave Spain, Jews fled to North Africa, or to the Ottoman Empire through Eastern Europe.

    Read "The Spanish Inquisition" by Henry Kamen - An expert on early modern Spain.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #24 - March 07, 2009, 10:38 PM

    I was not saying that Islam and Muslims have ever been tolerant of Jews by todays standards; that is shown by the Dhimmi Tax imposed on Jews. But what I am saying is that up until the middle of the 20th century, relatively speaking, the Muslim world was more tolerant of Jews than the West. Under Islamic Law, being Jewish cannot be punished by the law. Under Islamic Law, Jews may practice their religion, so long as they pay the Dhimmi Tax. Of course there were pogroms against the Jews in the Islamic World, but it was nowhere near on the same scale as in Europe at the time.

    Jews were expelled from European countries on on numerous occasions, often seeking refuge in Islamic lands. During the Spanish Inquisition, the Jews mainly emigrated to Portugal and Morocco. By modern standards, Islamic law would be considered intolerant of Jews but throughout the Middle Ages and Early Modern Period, it was relatively more tolerant than European attitudes to Jews.


    I have no problem with agreeing with you here.

    Antisemitism and antisemitic ideas are rife in the Islamic world now, but I believe that religion has been confused with Politics and this is more to do with the persecution of Muslims by a Jewish state - Anti zionism has developed into antisemitism.


    This is where I disagree.

    The roots of hatred towards Jews goes right back to Muhammad and the Qur'an.
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #25 - March 08, 2009, 05:57 AM

    Muhammed exterminated an entire Jewish tribe. I agree it was barbaric and wrong, but they were not killed for being Jewish. They were killed for breaking a pact with Muhammad.


    And tell me why they wouldn't be hostile to the new faith & break pacts? They were living in a land where they had previously enjoyed complete equality with the Pre Islamic pagan majority, they had to pay no special taxes & even intermarried with pagans, which is all evident from Islamic sources.

    Heard of Kaab Ibn Al Ashraf, the leader of a Jewish tribe who was murdered on Muhammad's orders? Well, his mother was a Jewish woman, father an Arab pagan, & according to halacha he was a Jew. He was apparently raised Jewish too, for he followed his mother's faith & became Head of his mother's tribe. Will all this be possible in today's Saudi? Will a Jewish woman be allowed to marry a Saudi Muslim man & raise her kids as Jews?

    Now suddenly a new man called Muhammad came on the scene & proclaimed himself the Jews' Promised Messiah, which in itself is annoying, but doesn't deserve a war, but to add insult to injury he also proclaimed an additional tax-called jizya on the Jews should they not accept his messiahship.  finmad

    The Jews could see the complete tolerance they'd enjoyed in Saudi being replaced by partial tolerance. How would today's Muslims in U.K. like it, if say the BNP came to power, forbade Muslims intermarrying non Muslims & gave them the option of converting to Anglicanism or paying a special tax?

    For both the pagans, & to a lesser extent the Jews, Muhammad's arrival on the scene as a self proclaimed Messiah was a calamity.

    Muhammad's Quran gave idolaters only two options- conversion or death & he converted the pagans by smashing their idols & threatening to kill them if they came out of their houses to protect their idols. Even when after his death, ridda(apostasy) wars broke out amongst pagans eager to cast off the noose of Islam, they were ruthlessly suppressed. These ridda wars are evidence that even after all the coercion, Islam hadn't really been accepted by the newly converted, they continued to seethe inwardly & were on the lookout for the first opportunity to rid themselves of the faith.

    For the Jews, it was a deterioration from their previous status as equal citizens to second class citizens. Henceforth, no Jewish woman could easily marry a Saudi man, like Kaab Ibn Al Ashraf's mother had done & raise her children as Jews according to what Jewish Law taught They also had to pay a special tax simply for remaining Jews.

    Defeated people never write their history, for them its a time of darkness-yet even from the history we can glean from Islamic sources- we see how the Meccan idolaters were forcibly proselytized & Jews reduced to eternal subservience by the new faith called Islam. All this was done, not by some misguided followers of Muhammad, like Jesus' followers' had done-but by Muhammad himself.

    P.S. The Arab pagans were tolerant of apostasy too, which is why Khadija's cousin Waraqa Nawfal had converted to Christianity, & lived happily in Saudi. Today any Saudi convert to Christianity would be Flamer according to Muhammad's laws.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #26 - March 08, 2009, 11:26 AM

    Muhammed exterminated an entire Jewish tribe. I agree it was barbaric and wrong, but they were not killed for being Jewish. They were killed for breaking a pact with Muhammad.


    And tell me why they wouldn't be hostile to the new faith & break pacts? They were living in a land where they had previously enjoyed complete equality with the Pre Islamic pagan majority, they had to pay no special taxes & even intermarried with pagans, which is all evident from Islamic sources.

    Heard of Kaab Ibn Al Ashraf, the leader of a Jewish tribe who was murdered on Muhammad's orders? Well, his mother was a Jewish woman, father an Arab pagan, & according to halacha he was a Jew. He was apparently raised Jewish too, for he followed his mother's faith & became Head of his mother's tribe. Will all this be possible in today's Saudi? Will a Jewish woman be allowed to marry a Saudi Muslim man & raise her kids as Jews?

    Now suddenly a new man called Muhammad came on the scene & proclaimed himself the Jews' Promised Messiah, which in itself is annoying, but doesn't deserve a war, but to add insult to injury he also proclaimed an additional tax-called jizya on the Jews should they not accept his messiahship.  finmad

    The Jews could see the complete tolerance they'd enjoyed in Saudi being replaced by partial tolerance. How would today's Muslims in U.K. like it, if say the BNP came to power, forbade Muslims intermarrying non Muslims & gave them the option of converting to Anglicanism or paying a special tax?

    For both the pagans, & to a lesser extent the Jews, Muhammad's arrival on the scene as a self proclaimed Messiah was a calamity.

    Muhammad's Quran gave idolaters only two options- conversion or death & he converted the pagans by smashing their idols & threatening to kill them if they came out of their houses to protect their idols. Even when after his death, ridda(apostasy) wars broke out amongst pagans eager to cast off the noose of Islam, they were ruthlessly suppressed. These ridda wars are evidence that even after all the coercion, Islam hadn't really been accepted by the newly converted, they continued to seethe inwardly & were on the lookout for the first opportunity to rid themselves of the faith.

    For the Jews, it was a deterioration from their previous status as equal citizens to second class citizens. Henceforth, no Jewish woman could easily marry a Saudi man, like Kaab Ibn Al Ashraf's mother had done & raise her children as Jews according to what Jewish Law taught They also had to pay a special tax simply for remaining Jews.

    Defeated people never write their history, for them its a time of darkness-yet even from the history we can glean from Islamic sources- we see how the Meccan idolaters were forcibly proselytized & Jews reduced to eternal subservience by the new faith called Islam. All this was done, not by some misguided followers of Muhammad, like Jesus' followers' had done-but by Muhammad himself.

    P.S. The Arab pagans were tolerant of apostasy too, which is why Khadija's cousin Waraqa Nawfal had converted to Christianity, & lived happily in Saudi. Today any Saudi convert to Christianity would be Flamer according to Muhammad's laws.



     Afro ^^

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #27 - March 08, 2009, 12:05 PM

    I was not saying that Islam and Muslims have ever been tolerant of Jews by todays standards; that is shown by the Dhimmi Tax imposed on Jews. But what I am saying is that up until the middle of the 20th century, relatively speaking, the Muslim world was more tolerant of Jews than the West. Under Islamic Law, being Jewish cannot be punished by the law. Under Islamic Law, Jews may practice their religion, so long as they pay the Dhimmi Tax. Of course there were pogroms against the Jews in the Islamic World, but it was nowhere near on the same scale as in Europe at the time.

    Jews were expelled from European countries on on numerous occasions, often seeking refuge in Islamic lands. During the Spanish Inquisition, the Jews mainly emigrated to Portugal and Morocco. By modern standards, Islamic law would be considered intolerant of Jews but throughout the Middle Ages and Early Modern Period, it was relatively more tolerant than European attitudes to Jews.

    Antisemitism and antisemitic ideas are rife in the Islamic world now, but I believe that religion has been confused with Politics and this is more to do with the persecution of Muslims by a Jewish state - Anti zionism has developed into antisemitism.

    You're right about the relative tolerance of the Andalusian caliphate compared to the rest of medieval Europe. Both Christians and Jews were generally well treated, although still dhimmis, during the Andalusian period. However it is worth pointing out that the Andalusian caliphate was tolerant by Islamic standards as well.

    The thing about the modern middle East is that although I don't disagree that the Israel/Palestine situation has exacerbated Muslim anti-Judaism (a term which is more accurate than the common "anti-Semitism" as the region's Muslims are themselves Semitic) the degree to which it is propounded is greater than can be explained by modern politics.

    If it was limited to saying that the policies of Israel were morally bankrupt and frequently resulted in inhumane consequences, along with a political push for constructive change, then yes I would have no difficulty accepting that it was solely or largely related to the current situation. However, when you have people asserting in all seriousness that Jews drink the blood of children and cause earthquakes and are apes and pigs, etc, etc, etc then it really does stretch credulity to insist that there is nothing sinister behind it.

    Modern Muslim literature and media presentations about Jews are frequently almost exactly the same as the tripe put out by the Nazis. This is not balanced and fair criticism that we are talking about. It is literally insane and dangerous.  

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #28 - March 08, 2009, 12:47 PM

    In fairness it also has to be said that hatred of Arabs is quite widespread amongst Jews.

    Jews also need to admit and confront it too!


    Q4T!

    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: May Allah Bless Basmalah
     Reply #29 - March 08, 2009, 01:06 PM

    The one who is good at heart... is not a Jew in any real sense.


    This so reminds me of Ali Sina saying that peaceful/moderate Muslims are not real Muslims.

    One demonizes Jews.

    The other demonizes Muslims.

    We must be completely consistent when we stand against such statements and not be selectively against some but yet allow others.
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