Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Lights on the way
by akay
Today at 06:36 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
Yesterday at 05:41 PM

Dutch elections
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 10:11 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 08:46 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
November 13, 2024, 05:18 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
November 07, 2024, 09:56 AM

Do humans have needed kno...
November 04, 2024, 03:51 AM

The origins of Judaism
by zeca
November 02, 2024, 12:56 PM

New Britain
October 30, 2024, 08:34 PM

Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
October 22, 2024, 09:05 PM

Tariq Ramadan Accused of ...
September 11, 2024, 01:37 PM

France Muslims were in d...
September 05, 2024, 03:21 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Mohammad, the Pedophile

 (Read 138521 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 8 9 1011 12 ... 23 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #270 - March 29, 2009, 07:11 PM

    I have to agree with those who, on technical grounds, are disinclined to use the term pedophile for Mohammed.  The best argument for this is not the historical/cultural relativism point offered by Hassan, but rather the definition of the word itself, by which it must involve repeated offenses and not just one.  A pedophile's pathology is serial.  While we do call serial killers "murderers", we do not call all murderers "serial killers" if they have only killed one or two people.  And, of course, behind the serial aspect of the pathology is the obsessiveness that comes from repeated behavior.




    I disagree about the repeated behaviour definition of pedophilia. If a man has sex with an underage girl/boy, whether that is the sole offence, he is prosecuted for pedophilia.

    He is prosecuted for sexual interference/sexual assault/rape of an underaged victim. Never is anyone convicted for pedophilia. Just like no one is ever convicted for being a serial killer. The media likes to sensationalize the word and call him a 'convicted pedophile'. but that was not the case against him. Else the prosecutor would have had to actually prove the full pshycological spectrum needed to convict/diagnose someone of being a pedophile.

    Some people are tried for multiple homicides, just like some are tried for multiple sexual assaults. Some had a need or a curiosity, and some had an addiction. Some will serve the time and never re-offend and some still can not help it. Not everyone who has sex with a child is automatically a pedophile. not everyone who had sex with a corpse is automatically a necrophile. It is a pedophilic act. It is a necrophiliac act or some like to call it, a necromantic act Smiley but it can be done by a person who is not a necrophile..yet.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #271 - March 29, 2009, 07:39 PM

    I do sometimes find it odd that people will glorify Spantans and other cultures in antiquity despite the fact that pedophilia was prevalent on a large scale, but will condemn Muhammad for it. I'm not defending his actions in anyway, and i don't know if this point has already been made, but i think it is unfair to compair him to our own standard of morality.
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #272 - March 29, 2009, 07:46 PM

    Most Westerners don't "glorify" Spartans.  At best, you will find some people who express admiration for them.

    More to the point, nobody in the West, or anywhere in the world, is following a cult of Sparta that in turn is enabling and nourishing horrific violence in various places around the globe -- violence which is currently escalating along with extremist, intolerant and hateful speech and writings by followers of that religion.

    The same, of course, cannot be denied of Mohammedanism (aka "Islam").

    How can we tell the difference between harmless Muslims, and dangerous Muslims?
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #273 - March 29, 2009, 07:49 PM

    I do sometimes find it odd that people will glorify Spantans and other other cultures in antiquity despite the fact that pedophilia was prevalent on a large scale, but will condemn Muhammad for it. I'm not defending his actions in anyway, and i don't know if this point has already been made, but i think it is unfair to compair him to our own standard of morality.

    Why is it unfair?  We are not claiming to be a prophet and an example to mankind like he did, are we?  We are not claiming to have divine inspiration.  

    Even our actions, as godless & spiritualless souls, is better than what he did.  This proves to me that it was all just one big fat lie which I sincerely hope you have not bought into also.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #274 - March 30, 2009, 05:54 AM

    I do sometimes find it odd that people will glorify Spantans and other cultures in antiquity despite the fact that pedophilia was prevalent on a large scale, but will condemn Muhammad for it. I'm not defending his actions in anyway, and i don't know if this point has already been made, but i think it is unfair to compair him to our own standard of morality.


    Well, that point has already been made, it had to be coz the thread ran to 17+ pages,we've discussed most details possible Frollo!  Wink Well, there are two main objections I have to your stance that its unfair to compare him to our standards of morality.

    1) As Islame has already pointed out, Muhammad is supposed to be an example for all mankind for all times, so he is judged more strictly than Spartans.


    2)His actions were unjustified even according to the standards of morality prevalent in his time. Aisha was Muhammad's friend & according to a brotherhood pact "brother" Abu Bakr's daughter. He naturally must have come across her whenever he visited Abu Bakr's house. Although Aisha was 8 years 9 months old when he consummated his marriage with her, she was barely 6 when he married her.And what was the event, which catapulted Muhammad to ask for Ayesha's hand, in his own words as recollected by the listener Aisha herself?

    Here they are, from the most authentic collection of Hadiths-the Sahih Bukhari.  Smiley
    Sahih Bukhari 9.140
    Narrated 'Aisha:
    Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.

    Muhammad, in his own words claims that he saw Aisha twice in a dream before he married her. Aisha as his friend's daughter was a familiar face to him. Even though pretty old men sometimes had diplomatic alliances with younger girls, how many old men met their friend's little girl & dreamt of her twice? Since Aisha was 6 at the time of her wedding & was little enough to be carried by an angel on a cloth, she was probably 6 or under when Muhammad had such inappropriate dreams regarding her... idiot2

    Also, while older men might've married extremely young girls in Muhammad's time & region, men simply did not marry their "nieces" ie the daughters' of men with whom they had brotherhood pacts.

    Thats' why Abu Bakr objected, here are his objections:


    Sahih Bukhari 7.18
    Narrated 'Ursa:
    The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."

    Thus even in Muhamad's time, men simply did not marry their foster nieces. Why then did Muhammad go against the conventions of his time? Having seen his little, ie 6 or under niece Aisha in a dream, he was desperate to wed & bed her, & convinced Abu Bakr that Aisha could still be married to him...

    This simply was unacceptable, to whichever standard of morality we choose to apply. The standards of Muhammad's time, where a foster brother's little girl was a niece but Muhammad was overcome with lust to dream about her twice & convinced Abu Bakr that she would be an eligible bride for him, despite the brotherhood pact
                                                     and
    Definitely to our standards of morality, which regards pedophilia as abhorrent and according to Muslims Muhammad is the ideal man for all times.  Tongue


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #275 - March 30, 2009, 09:54 AM

    1) As Islame has already pointed out, Muhammad is supposed to be an example for all mankind for all times, so he is judged more strictly than Spartans.

    2)His actions were unjustified even according to the standards of morality prevalent in his time. Aisha was Muhammad's friend & according to a brotherhood pact "brother" Abu Bakr's daughter. He naturally must have come across her whenever he visited Abu Bakr's house. Although Aisha was 8 years 9 months old when he consummated his marriage with her, she was barely 6 when he married her.And what was the event, which catapulted Muhammad to ask for Ayesha's hand, in his own words as recollected by the listener Aisha herself?

    Here they are, from the most authentic collection of Hadiths-the Sahih Bukhari.  Smiley
    Sahih Bukhari 9.140
    Narrated 'Aisha:
    Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.

    Muhammad, in his own words claims that he saw Aisha twice in a dream before he married her. Aisha as his friend's daughter was a familiar face to him. Even though pretty old men sometimes had diplomatic alliances with younger girls, how many old men met their friend's little girl & dreamt of her twice? Since Aisha was 6 at the time of her wedding & was little enough to be carried by an angel on a cloth, she was probably 6 or under when Muhammad had such inappropriate dreams regarding her... idiot2

    Also, while older men might've married extremely young girls in Muhammad's time & region, men simply did not marry their "nieces" ie the daughters' of men with whom they had brotherhood pacts.

    Thats' why Abu Bakr objected, here are his objections:


    Ok i get your point, Muhammad was an egotistical individual and had a couple of wet dreams. 
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #276 - March 30, 2009, 09:59 AM

     Greetings Frollo, wouldn't you like to introduce yourself?

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #277 - March 30, 2009, 10:06 AM

    Greetings Frollo, wouldn't you like to introduce yourself?

    Here or in the Introductions sub-forum?
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #278 - March 30, 2009, 10:07 AM

    You can open an intro thread if you like Frollo. Smiley

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #279 - March 30, 2009, 12:02 PM

    I do sometimes find it odd that people will glorify Spantans and other cultures in antiquity despite the fact that pedophilia was prevalent on a large scale, but will condemn Muhammad for it. I'm not defending his actions in anyway, and i don't know if this point has already been made, but i think it is unfair to compair him to our own standard of morality.


    Yes this point has been made - by me and others - so I agree with you.

    The problem is that Muslims take Muhammad to be the perfect example for all times and places - that's where it all goes wrong Smiley
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #280 - April 22, 2009, 06:59 PM

    I do sometimes find it odd that people will glorify Spantans and other cultures in antiquity despite the fact that pedophilia was prevalent on a large scale, but will condemn Muhammad for it. I'm not defending his actions in anyway, and i don't know if this point has already been made, but i think it is unfair to compair him to our own standard of morality.


    Paedophilia, being a prophet is what went wrong with Muhammad.

    Never heard of any Spartan claimed to be a role model for all the times btw.

    Regards
    KF
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #281 - October 01, 2009, 08:08 PM

    Sorry guys, I've just seen this thread rather late. I've not been through all the pages in the thread so please excuse me if this statement has been said elsewhere.

    What we need to remember first and foremost that for the muslims all of Mohammad's actions are built upon the assumption that he was a prophet and that all his actions carried some sort of divine intervention or wisdom in it.

    As non-muslims or ex-muslims we look at his life and actions and check to see whether or not those actions are what is classed as normal for a man let alone a prophet. After we look at those actions we make our judgement and base our opinion on that. So we judge the person's worth by his actions and check to see if his actions check against the claim he is making.

    For the muslim, they already accept him as a prophet and therefore everything he did not matter how absurd is accepted as some sort of lesson or wisdom. The muslim believes that his marriage to Aisha was divinely sanctioned and had wisdom in it. This wisdom they say has to do with the many narrations that she transmitted and the many people she would later go on to teach. So the only way that the muslims will see the actions as wrong is if they subtract the underlying assumption. Now that is something that most are not willing to do.
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #282 - October 01, 2009, 08:16 PM

    On a separate note - this is a thread that is coming up on Google.  So if the mods can correct the spelling (should be "paedophile") some more literate googlers may actually find it..

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #283 - October 01, 2009, 08:28 PM

    On a separate note - this is a thread that is coming up on Google.  So if the mods can correct the spelling (should be "paedophile") some more literate googlers may actually find it..


    Its PEDOPHILE if you are american, and PAEDOPHILE if you are English.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #284 - October 01, 2009, 08:29 PM

    Its PEDOPHILE if you are american, and PAEDOPHILE if you are English.


    After that lesson in linguistics we should carry on with the topic ;-)
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #285 - October 01, 2009, 08:36 PM

    Still prefer to change it for the benefit of our radicalised Islamic brethren here in the UK. 

    Let the Yanks deal with their own problems (instead of concentrating on everybody else's)

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #286 - October 02, 2009, 11:48 AM

    doesn't google automatically search for both US and UK spellings?
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #287 - October 02, 2009, 11:58 AM

    No?  It searches for the word you type in.  If you type in a huge spelling mistake and no searches come up, then it might offer you an alternative..

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #288 - October 02, 2009, 02:20 PM

    I do sometimes find it odd that people will glorify Spantans and other cultures in antiquity despite the fact that pedophilia was prevalent on a large scale, but will condemn Muhammad for it. I'm not defending his actions in anyway, and i don't know if this point has already been made, but i think it is unfair to compair him to our own standard of morality.


    Technically speaking the Spartans (and other ancient Greeks and many other cultures as well) were pederasts rather than paedophiles.  The Ottomans and the Persians also engaged in it, even after Islam..  In fact it was practiced in most cultures around the world.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #289 - October 02, 2009, 03:54 PM

    I don't believe it is historically correct to apply terms like pedophile to historical figures like Muhammad.

    If a male historical figure was into banging males, then today we can say he was gay. Granted Twenty yrs ago that was a bad thing to call someone gay / Today it is not bad. However he is still gay.

    It was quite acceptable for older men to marry young girls in many societies in the past. Only a hundred years ago it was still common for men in Britain to marry girls aged 12, 13 or 14. It is nonsense to call all those people pedophiles.

    Yes. A man who bangs 12+ is not technically a p3dophile.

    The term pedophile is simply not appropriate to historical figures who were conforming to the norms of their own society.

    An entire society that was into banging the dead, is a society of necrophiles. If some of them just bang a corpse few times in their life, then they are just conforming. But when a person from that society, develops the fetish for it and looks forward for it and does it again and again and wait in long lines for corpses, then we have a necrophile. A necrophile from a society of necrophiles. And the person who pushes the limits of banging corpses, even in his/her society of necrophiles, can be looked at as "King Necrophile" or "Necrolord".


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #290 - October 07, 2009, 11:29 AM

    bangig kid = pedo... easy as that.

    How it was handled in a society dousnt count.

    As a man you have to feel attracted to something or somone to have sexual lust for it. If you dont have that, you wont (under normal sircumstances) have sex with it.

    So... mohammed wanted to have sex with his girlwife. You cant tell me he was forced to do it.


    on another note... Hail to the Necrolord! (it just sounds like a fanatsy flick villain!)

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves." - from Goethes Faust
    "Only the wisest and the stupidest men never change." - Confuzios
    "there is no religion of peace, only people who are peaceful while being religious."
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #291 - October 07, 2009, 08:03 PM

    Its PEDOPHILE if you are american, and PAEDOPHILE if you are English.

    Ya, and Rassool-Allah if you are Arabic.


    ...Hail to the Necrolord.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #292 - October 08, 2009, 01:18 AM


    It arises as an issue because Muslims say he was the perfect man, beyond criticism, and that his conduct is the ideal to which all Muslims must aspire, that his life was essentialised as the perfect life, and that it shall remain so forever, immutable and perfect -- hence he is known as al-insan al-kamil, the perfect human.

    Well if that is the case then we have to hold his life up to modern standards of civilised behaviour. His sexual relations with pre-pubescent girls are deeply disturbing, and if Muslims really believe he is al-insan al-kamil, they have to believe that sexual relations between a fifty year old man and girls are perfectly acceptable. In which case, by our definition, he practised paedophilia.

    Unless the argument is that the rest of the world should modify their morality congruent to the morality exemplified by al-insan al-kamil, so that we accept 50 year old men having sex with girl-childs is acceptable.

    Muslims cannot have it both ways -- either Mohammad is al-insan al-kamil and his behaviour is legitimate, or he is not longer al-insan al-kamil, in which case, there is going to be a massive amount of mental distress and Emperor's New Clothes syndrome if you confront these issues.

    This is the real reason why Muslims become murderous when Mo is criticised -- they are afraid of the truth coming out, and the whole foundation of their religion and piety being exposed, and when that happens, the walls will start crumbling.....

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #293 - October 08, 2009, 07:26 PM

    The USA Founding Fathers struggled with "all men are created equal", when every one of them was a slave owner.  They knew it was wrong.  If you don't think taking a child bride of nine years old is wrong, ask her or her friends or her parents, in any century.  To say Mo shouldn't be held even posthumously responsible for rape is outlandish and justifies violence toward women and children.  To not hold dieties responsible is to deny one's own conscience.  These written records are proof these deities are incapable of the love and peace their followers claim.
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #294 - October 08, 2009, 07:34 PM

    Might as well add to this. Actually I wont.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #295 - October 08, 2009, 07:42 PM

     Huh? you can say whatever you like

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #296 - October 09, 2009, 07:35 AM

    If you don't think taking a child bride of nine years old is wrong, ask her or her friends or her parents, in any century. 



    The problem with this advice David, is that it is not possible. Or have you invented a time machine?

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #297 - October 09, 2009, 02:49 PM

    It arises as an issue because Muslims say he was the perfect man, beyond criticism, and that his conduct is the ideal to which all Muslims must aspire, that his life was essentialised as the perfect life, and that it shall remain so forever, immutable and perfect -- hence he is known as al-insan al-kamil, the perfect human.

    Well if that is the case then we have to hold his life up to modern standards of civilised behaviour. His sexual relations with pre-pubescent girls are deeply disturbing, and if Muslims really believe he is al-insan al-kamil, they have to believe that sexual relations between a fifty year old man and girls are perfectly acceptable. In which case, by our definition, he practised paedophilia.

    Unless the argument is that the rest of the world should modify their morality congruent to the morality exemplified by al-insan al-kamil, so that we accept 50 year old men having sex with girl-childs is acceptable.

    Muslims cannot have it both ways -- either Mohammad is al-insan al-kamil and his behaviour is legitimate, or he is not longer al-insan al-kamil, in which case, there is going to be a massive amount of mental distress and Emperor's New Clothes syndrome if you confront these issues.

    This is the real reason why Muslims become murderous when Mo is criticised -- they are afraid of the truth coming out, and the whole foundation of their religion and piety being exposed, and when that happens, the walls will start crumbling.....



    Very well argued

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #298 - October 09, 2009, 04:48 PM

    The only thing I can add, is that since Aisha's age is derived from Hadith...which too were compiled 200+ years after Muhammad's death...and since we argue how accurate and factual all of them are...I think Aisha's actual could may as well NOT be 9 after all.

    Hadith is NOT 100% accurate evidence bear in mind.

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #299 - October 09, 2009, 05:09 PM

    The only thing I can add, is that since Aisha's age is derived from Hadith...which too were compiled 200+ years after Muhammad's death...and since we argue how accurate and factual all of them are...I think Aisha's actual could may as well NOT be 9 after all.

    Hadith is NOT 100% accurate evidence bear in mind.

    The right NOT to accept Mo was a paedo only extends to heretics & non-believers. 

    A Muslim has to accept it as acceptable behaviour, as they understand these hadith to be 100% authentic.

    So in the context of this thread, your point does not stand.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Previous page 1 ... 8 9 1011 12 ... 23 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »