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 Topic: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!

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  • Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     OP - March 13, 2009, 09:55 AM

    Im really speechless! Banning Geert Wilders *spit* but allow this guy to visit Britain?! Im sorry, but i really lost what little respect i had for the british gouverment.

    If there ever was a case of extreme hypocrisy this would be it
    The British government as exposed its double standards once again by planning to allow Dr Ibrahim Moussawi who is the mouth peace of the Militant Islamic group Hizbollah.
    It was bad enough that they banned Dutch M.P Geert Wilders from entering the U.K but if they were to allow Dr Ibrahim Moussawi to enter the country Labour will show it's try Islamic colours.
    As we can all assume that no doubt there will be threats of or actual Muslim violence on the streets again if DR Moussawi is denied entry to the U.K from the usual intolerant bigots.
    And as per usual we can expect the current government to fold like a group of spineless pussies.

    Quote
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk wrote:

    Campaigners will seek arrest of Islamic radical

    Campaigners from the Centre for Social Cohesion have pledged to seek an arrest warrant for Dr Ibrahim Moussawi, an Islamic extremist, who is due to visit Britain this March.
    The think-tank said the Home Office would be "beyond hypocrisy" if it allowed Dr Ibrahim Moussawi into Britain just weeks after barring Geert Wilders, the Dutch politician, because of his alleged anti-Muslim views.

    Dr Moussawi is a spokesman for the Lebanese-based militant group Hizbollah, the military arm of which is banned in Britain as a terrorist organisation.
    He has allegedly called Jews "a lesion on the forehead of history" and said of Israel: "Pain is the only language that the enemy understands."

    Douglas Murray, director of the CSC, has written to Jacqui Smith, the Home Secretary, warning her that he will instruct lawyers to seek an arrest warrant for Dr Moussawi if he is allowed into the country.

    The think-tank has already sought advice from barrister Paul Diamond, an expert in religious affairs law, on using war crimes legislation and a legal precedent from 2004 to seek, independently, an arrest warrant from a magistrate.

    Mr Murray said: "This is the deepest hypocrisy, in fact, it is worse than hypocrisy on behalf of the British government.

    "The government clearly do not have a grip on this. Britain is still a place where terrorists and terrorist supporters can come to incite and recruit."

    Dr Moussawi is due to address a conference at the University of London's School of Oriental and African Studies, on March 25, on the subject of political Islam.

    Senior civil servants and police officers are among those who will pay up to ?1,890 to attend the event, which is intended to improve understanding of radicalism.

    Dr Moussawi has been granted a visa to visit Britain at least twice in the last two years but it is understood that he has yet to apply for permission to re-enter.

    He was banned from visiting Ireland{/b} in 2007. On previous visits to the UK he has spoken at events organised by the Stop The War Coalition, and has been billed as a Hizbollah spokesman.

    Apart from his role as a public face of the militant group, Dr Moussawi edits a weekly Hizbollah newspaper and was the political editor of a Hizbollah television station which is banned in the US, France and Spain because its output is seen as anti-Semitic.

    In its letter to Ms Smith, the Centre for Social Cohesion said: "We would be grateful for a full answer as to why this policy is not being applied to Dr Moussawi in the light of recent exclusions of other non-nationals seeking to enter the United Kingdom.

    "It is the position of the Home Office that individuals are banned from entry in the United Kingdom if 'they stir up tension and provoke violence to others'.

    "Dr Moussawi would threaten community harmony and clearly breach this condition. If Dr Moussawi arrives in the UK we will instruct counsel to seek a warrant for his arrest."

    In 2004, Bow Street magistrates' court considered an application for an arrest warrant for General Shaul Mofaz, then the Israeli defence minister, at the request of Palestinian groups.

    The warrant was not granted, on the grounds that the minister would enjoy state immunity.

    Any prosecution which would arise from such an arrest warrant would have to be authorised by the Attorney General.

    Mr Wilders, 45, planned to show his controversial film which links the Koran to terrorism, but was banned from entering Britain because he was classed as someone likely to incite hatred and threaten "community harmony".

    The politician had been invited by a peer to show his 17-minute documentary, entitled Fitna, and hold a question-and-answer session in Parliament.

    He has urged the Dutch government to ban the Koran and has warned of a "tsunami" of Islam swamping the Netherlands.

    After being turned back at Heathrow airport, Mr Wilders described the UK government as the "biggest bunch of cowards in Europe" and criticised them for barring a democratically-elected politician from a fellow European Union country.

    The Conservatives have urged the Home Secretary to bar Dr Moussawi.


    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves." - from Goethes Faust
    "Only the wisest and the stupidest men never change." - Confuzios
    "there is no religion of peace, only people who are peaceful while being religious."
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #1 - March 13, 2009, 10:15 AM

    spineless pussies.

    I hate to imagine what a pussy with a spine feels like Cheesy

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #2 - March 13, 2009, 11:32 AM

    Britain likes to ass-kiss extremism.
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #3 - March 13, 2009, 11:51 AM

    The British government has lost the plot!  They risk sacrificing more youth to these radicals all because they have some guilt trip over offending the Muslim minority in the past.   

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #4 - March 13, 2009, 02:05 PM

    Quote
    The Conservatives have urged the Home Secretary to bar Dr Moussawi.

    The Tory Party scores another goal. They are beginning to earn my respect.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #5 - March 13, 2009, 03:12 PM

    This isn't hypocrisy, just more of the same with what happened to G.W

    With G.W, they banned a man from entering, so that they didn't upset Muslims

    Now they are letting a man enter, so that they don't upset Muslims.

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #6 - March 14, 2009, 10:55 AM

    Alhamdullilah! He's barred from entering!The government grown a tiny spine overnight, it seems!   clap

    www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1161754/Exclusive-Islamic-fanatic-Ibrahim-Moussawi-barred-entering-Britain.html

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #7 - March 19, 2009, 09:41 AM

    Thank God for that!
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #8 - March 19, 2009, 12:29 PM

    Thank God for that!


    Indeed, but this is one problem resolved not a permanent position, the BS govt is likely to pull more stunts in the future

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #9 - March 19, 2009, 06:20 PM

    I don't see what is so controversial about this guy. He is not a terrorist and Hezbollah is not a terrorist organisation, it is a political party which began as a resistance movement against a massively aggressive neighbour in Israel, which was occupying parts of southern Lebanon.  This article does not say what his purpose is in the UK, probably because it is not at all threatening.

    Geert Wilders, on the other hand, has a purpose to stoke up anti muslim sentiment, and that is all he was trying to do on his proposed visit to the UK. He was invited by Lord Pearson and Baroness Cox, two massively right wing members of the House of Lords. I cannot see any other purpose for them to invite him over to show the film, other than to promote anti muslim sentiment, which is neither necessary nor constructive. Therefore, I think the government was more than justified in not allowing him into this country.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #10 - March 20, 2009, 05:28 AM

    I don't see what is so controversial about this guy. He is not a terrorist and Hezbollah is not a terrorist organisation, it is a political party which began as a resistance movement against a massively aggressive neighbour in Israel, which was occupying parts of southern Lebanon.  This article does not say what his purpose is in the UK, probably because it is not at all threatening.

    Geert Wilders, on the other hand, has a purpose to stoke up anti muslim sentiment, and that is all he was trying to do on his proposed visit to the UK. He was invited by Lord Pearson and Baroness Cox, two massively right wing members of the House of Lords. I cannot see any other purpose for them to invite him over to show the film, other than to promote anti muslim sentiment, which is neither necessary nor constructive. Therefore, I think the government was more than justified in not allowing him into this country.


    http://www.thenational.ae/article/20090315/FOREIGN/274020585/1001

    Well, not only is Hezbollah against Israel's occupation of Lebanon, it also opposes Israel's right to exist as it was built on land stolen from the Palestinians who happened to be majority Muslim. I hope it is also similarly against Pakistan & Bangladesh's right to exist? Probably not, stealing land from idolaters & stealing lands from Allah's Chosen People are two different things in these people's eyes.  Roll Eyes Which is why during the Mumbai Terror Attacks, Pakistani terrorists, themselves living on lands from where they've driven other people out , came to India & killed in addition to British, Americans, Indians-5 Jews by specifically targetting the only Jewish Centre in the city. Encouraging Muslim double standards has to stop ASAP if the world doesn't envisage a dhimmitude upon itself.

    The Hezbollah makes enough Anti Semitic statements, just like Geert Wilders' anti Muslim statements & unlike Wilders is alleged to be involved in terrorist activities themselves.

    While I don't find stoking up Islamophobia pleasant, its infinitely better than the London Train Bombings, the Madrid bombings, the murder of Theo Van Gogh & plenty of other foiled terror attacks like the infamous shoe bomber case. I can't help noticing that there're other immigrant groups in Europe as well who don't behave likewise-the Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists non believers etc cause no such threat to life or limb.

    Islam believes it has a natural right to drive out others like idolaters from Pakistan, try to drive out more idolaters from Kashmir & attempt to add Kashmir onto "Dar ul Islam" too, but its a grevious insult to Allah should some Jewish apes & pigs steal some of their lands which causes the entire Ummah to be up in arms against Jews  & foaming in the mouth against Jews.

    Islam also has a natural right to immigrate wherever it likes be it to U.K. or other Western nations or illegally from Pakistan & Bangladesh into India(from where thay had driven out the idolaters) but of course, Jews moving into Israel from other parts of the world has to be stopped at all costs.

    The entire Mid East & the Muslim Ummah worldwide can make movies, write cartoons vilifying Jews who were responsible for the death of some Muslims in Palestine, but its a different matter altogether should an European Geert Wilders make a movie attacking Islam after all the deaths the West has suffered due to Islamists at New York, London, Madrid & Paris. Note that Geert did not even call for a retaliatory terror attack, unlike Hezbollah or Muslim Sheikhs who regularly praise suicide bombings as "sacred explosions"

    BBC's Mark Thompson claims that Islam should be treated more sensitively than other faiths. Muslims naturally feel this way & the world seems to have sub consciously bought into this notion.

    Would treating them more sensitively indeed have positive results? History proves otherwise. Giving Pakistan to Muslims led them to demand Kashmir & even recently giving the Gaza Strip to Muslims led them to fire 6000 crude rockets at Israel. Would the world treating them more sensitively lead them to impose a dhimmitude on the world? It just might.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #11 - March 20, 2009, 06:23 AM

    Does Israel recognize Palestine's right to exist? No...

    Jews being pigs and apes is a misnomer. Allah transformed only those Jews of old who violated the Sabbath into apes and swine.

    Quote from: al-Qur'an, Surah al-A'raf, 7:163-166
    And ask them about the town that was by the sea, when they transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath. Their fish came to them openly on Saturday, but not on other days. Thus We made a trial for them...

    So when they exceeded the limits of what they were prohibited, We said to them, "Be you monkeys, despised and rejected."


    Quote from: al-Qur'an, Surah al-Baqarah, 2:65
    And indeed you knew those amongst you (Jews) who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath. We said to them, "Be you monkeys, despised and rejected."


    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #12 - March 20, 2009, 06:58 AM

    Does Israel recognize Palestine's right to exist? No...


    Leaving the Gaza Strip & forcing, literally dragging Jews out of the Gaza Strip led to 6000 rockets being fired at Israel...  Roll Eyes What will recognizing all Palestine do? Jews made an attempt at peace with the Gaza Strip, it has recognized its folly as it witnessed the terrible consequences of that recognition & will have to re examine the way it deals with Muslims in the future.

    Jews being pigs and apes is a misnomer. Allah transformed only those Jews of old who violated the Sabbath into apes and swine.

    Quote from: al-Qur'an, Surah al-A'raf, 7:163-166
    And ask them about the town that was by the sea, when they transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath. Their fish came to them openly on Saturday, but not on other days. Thus We made a trial for them...

    So when they exceeded the limits of what they were prohibited, We said to them, "Be you monkeys, despised and rejected."


    Quote from: al-Qur'an, Surah al-Baqarah, 2:65
    And indeed you knew those amongst you (Jews) who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath. We said to them, "Be you monkeys, despised and rejected."



    The term apes & pigs is widely used to demonstrate the inferior status Islam accords to Jews, Christians & the utter contempt with which it regards polytheists, do you deny any of this?

    Isn't there a strict heirarchical order of faiths established by Mo himself in the Quran regarding other faiths? Muslims come on top, as the custodians & propagators of the complete guidance Allah(SWT) gave to mankind, Jews & Christians' come next who face many restrictions in marriage, taxes & propagating their faiths & as for idolaters the only two options the Quran left open for them was conversion oorrr death.

    Isn't it but natural that people adhering to a faith where the Founder Prophet killed 700 Jews & introduced a Jizya on them & forcibly converted idolaters by smashing their idols & threatening to kill them if they tried to ptotect their idols- today drive out idolaters from lands with complete impunity but feel outraged should Jews settle in any of their lands?



    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #13 - March 20, 2009, 09:31 AM

    Does Israel recognize Palestine's right to exist? No...

    Leaving the Gaza Strip & forcing, literally dragging Jews out of the Gaza Strip led to 6000 rockets being fired at Israel...  Roll Eyes What will recognizing all Palestine do? Jews made an attempt at peace with the Gaza Strip, it has recognized its folly as it witnessed the terrible consequences of that recognition & will have to re examine the way it deals with Muslims in the future.

    Define 'settlement'. Isn't a settlement an illegal town that Israelis have built in Palestine to try and snatch more land after 67 borders were set? They should've never built there in the first place, so who gives a fuck about how much they left kicking and screaming?

    Quote
    The term apes & pigs is widely used to demonstrate the inferior status Islam accords to Jews, Christians & the utter contempt with which it regards polytheists, do you deny any of this?

    No, that makes them wrong too. Tongue

    Quote
    Isn't it but natural that people adhering to a faith where the Founder Prophet killed 700 Jews

     You know where he got the idea to do that? From the Torah. He asked the Jews, "What is the punishment for treason in the Torah?" They told him, and he did it.

    Quote
    & introduced a Jizya on them

    Taxes for protection. True, muslims paid less, but ahl ul-dhimma weren't obligated to serve in the army.

    Quote
    & forcibly converted idolaters by smashing their idols & threatening to kill them if they tried to ptotect their idols-

    I don't disagree with you.

    Quote
    today drive out idolaters from lands with complete impunity but feel outraged should Jews settle in any of their lands?

    Two wrongs don't make a right.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #14 - March 20, 2009, 09:37 AM

    Geert Wilders, on the other hand, has a purpose to stoke up anti muslim sentiment, and that is all he was trying to do on his proposed visit to the UK. He was invited by Lord Pearson and Baroness Cox, two massively right wing members of the House of Lords. I cannot see any other purpose for them to invite him over to show the film, other than to promote anti muslim sentiment, which is neither necessary nor constructive. Therefore, I think the government was more than justified in not allowing him into this country.

    Quick, call the witch-hunters! These evil conservatives must be stopped!  Roll Eyes

    Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation. The military wing of Hezbollah is described as such by the UK goverment. In other words, you think the UK government is justified in opposing the entry of a democratically elected Dutch PM to the UK, but a terrorist propagandist can walk in free and do as he pleases? 

    Quote from: awais
    Does Israel recognize Palestine's right to exist? No...

    They were willing to do this many times over in history. Israel evacuated the settlements in Gaza Strip to receive what? Another barrage of rockets?

    Muslims have occupied many different lands throughout history, do we have any example of a Muslim ruler evacuating Muslims for the sake of peace?

    Quote from: awais
    Jews being pigs and apes is a misnomer. Allah transformed only those Jews of old who violated the Sabbath into apes and swine.

    Jews being "apes and pigs" is a widespread meme in Islamic countries, whether or not the Quran describes all Jews in that light is irrelevant. Also, the Quran is full of many other racist and vile accusations against the Jews.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #15 - March 20, 2009, 09:41 AM

    Quote from: awais
    Define 'settlement'. Isn't a settlement an illegal town that Israelis have built in Palestine to try and snatch more land after 67 borders were set? They should've never built there in the first place, so who gives a fuck about how much they left kicking and screaming?

    I am going to reverse this statement to see its effect on you.

    "Muslims should have never invaded a good portion of the planet in the first place, so who gives a fuck about how much they suffer?"

    Quote from: awais
    Taxes for protection. True, muslims paid less, but ahl ul-dhimma weren't obligated to serve in the army.

    It sounds like you are sliding back into Islamic apologist arguements, Awais. The same protection argument is brought up against feminist critiques of Islam too: you know, women are so inferior and weak that they need the "protection" of men. Did the Ummah protect Jews during all the pogroms and massacres they faced in Islamic history?

    Quote from: awais
    They told him, and he did it.

    Define "treason." That the Jews "betrayed" Mohammad the warrior of peace and tolerance sounds suspiciously like the deicide accusations of another religion. History is written by the victors, remember?

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #16 - March 20, 2009, 10:01 AM

    Does Israel recognize Palestine's right to exist? No...

    Leaving the Gaza Strip & forcing, literally dragging Jews out of the Gaza Strip led to 6000 rockets being fired at Israel...  Roll Eyes What will recognizing all Palestine do? Jews made an attempt at peace with the Gaza Strip, it has recognized its folly as it witnessed the terrible consequences of that recognition & will have to re examine the way it deals with Muslims in the future.

    Define 'settlement'. Isn't a settlement an illegal town that Israelis have built in Palestine to try and snatch more land after 67 borders were set? They should've never built there in the first place, so who gives a fuck about how much they left kicking and screaming?


    Well, the 67 War itself happened due to all the Arab states ganging up & attacking Israel, in a war the spoils go to the winner. Had the Arab states not attacked, Israel wouldn't have snatched more lands. Pakistan attacked India to get Kashmir, occupied a part of Kashmir. Israel won, claimed lands but unlike Muslims had the magnanimity to return a portion of land-which led them to receive an amaranth of 6000 rockets. I'm sure they will be a lot less magnanimous in future.

    No, that makes them wrong too. Tongue

    Quote
    Isn't it but natural that people adhering to a faith where the Founder Prophet killed 700 Jews

     You know where he got the idea to do that? From the Torah. He asked the Jews, "What is the punishment for treason in the Torah?" They told him, and he did it.

    Quote
    & introduced a Jizya on them

    Taxes for protection. True, muslims paid less, but ahl ul-dhimma weren't obligated to serve in the army.

    Quote
    & forcibly converted idolaters by smashing their idols & threatening to kill them if they tried to ptotect their idols-

    I don't disagree with you.

    Quote
    today drive out idolaters from lands with complete impunity but feel outraged should Jews settle in any of their lands?

    Two wrongs don't make a right.

    Great, so we agree on this one.  Smiley

    As for treason, I see no reason to blame Jews' for treason when Mo's demands were unreasonable in the first place. They were living in a land where they were completely equal, Jewish halacha was followed as Kaab ibn Al Ashraf could be raised as a Jew & they paid no special taxes to the majority polytheists now suddenly a new guy comes up, askes them to pay the jizya & be relegated to second class status oorr threatens to obliterate them. Would you like it if Obama introduced a policy where all Hispanic\Latinos have to accept him as Messiah or pay taxes?

    Having made unneccessary demands on Jews, Mo had no right to kill them for treason, a right doesn't arise out of an illegal action.

    As for jizya, thats' not the only discrimination, marriage laws' like freely allowing Muslim men to marry non Muslim women but not the other way round were other discriminations. Tha fact that they got some other benefits like not seving in the Army doesn't justify other discriminations against them its just like the "Separate but Equal" policy of American Segregation, in reality separate  did not mean equal, it increased the already socially entrenched inequality of Blacks.

    Two wrongs don't make a right.

    True, but if Muslims' want to earn the world's true respect, instead of the misplaced sympathy of some Leftards that it is now getting for its violence followed by whinings, they better change their conduct. Want to sympathise with your Palestinian co religionists? Stop butchering people in Phillipines, Thailand, Kashmir, Sudan to name but a few locations-& be grateful for getting back Gaza & have mature talks with Israel instead of making & launching crude rockets.  mysmilie_977

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #17 - March 20, 2009, 10:32 PM

    Well, the 67 War itself happened due to all the Arab states ganging up & attacking Israel, in a war the spoils go to the winner.


    Yes, and why should the Palestinian people be forced to forever pay the price for the actions of autocratic governments not their own?

    Quote
    Had the Arab states not attacked, Israel wouldn't have snatched more lands.


    That's right. The Palestinians have been screwed by their "ally" governments in neighboring Arab lands, the Israelis, the US, and, perhaps most of all, the British, who managed to screw all parties involved at various times during its administration of and departure from Palestine.
    Quote
    Israel won, claimed lands but unlike Muslims had the magnanimity to return a portion of land-which led them to receive an amaranth of 6000 rockets. I'm sure they will be a lot less magnanimous in future.


    You think Israel withdrawing from Gaza was because they were being nice? My, my-- you are entirely misreading the situation. It was a realpolitick decision-- the cost of constant military occupation of Gaza was too high, so the IDF made a strategic redeployment of its forces to the much more coveted West Bank. Whether, from Israel's perspective, this was a mistake or not still remains to be seen. I find it difficult to believe Israeli political and military leaders did not anticipate invasions of Gaza to prevent rocket attacks would be necessary from time to time-- it the final analysis it still may be a less wasteful use of their resources than permanent occupation.

    As to some of your other points made up-thread:

    1. I find it strange you are using the Palestinian struggle to illustrate points about Islam in general. Up until the  1980s, Islamist forces were a negligible component of the conflict, which, up until then, had been a largely secular affair over boring shit like "land", which is the cause of most armed conflicts throughout history. It wasn't until the early 1990s that the Islamist forces were poised to soon eclipse the secular leadership, not just of the Palestinian people, but of the Arab street in general. Furthermore, at the beginning of the conflict almost 15% of the Palestinian population was Christian and fighting on the same side as the Muslims.

    2. Muslim double-standards? Okay, but come on...double-standards and hypocrisy are not something exclusive to Islam-- they are rampant amongst any worldview, religious or secular.

    fuck you
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #18 - March 21, 2009, 04:06 AM

    Well, the 67 War itself happened due to all the Arab states ganging up & attacking Israel, in a war the spoils go to the winner.


    Yes, and why should the Palestinian people be forced to forever pay the price for the actions of autocratic governments not their own?

    Quote
    Had the Arab states not attacked, Israel wouldn't have snatched more lands.


    That's right. The Palestinians have been screwed by their "ally" governments in neighboring Arab lands, the Israelis, the US, and, perhaps most of all, the British, who managed to screw all parties involved at various times during its administration of and departure from Palestine.
    Quote
    Israel won, claimed lands but unlike Muslims had the magnanimity to return a portion of land-which led them to receive an amaranth of 6000 rockets. I'm sure they will be a lot less magnanimous in future.


    You think Israel withdrawing from Gaza was because they were being nice? My, my-- you are entirely misreading the situation. It was a realpolitick decision-- the cost of constant military occupation of Gaza was too high, so the IDF made a strategic redeployment of its forces to the much more coveted West Bank. Whether, from Israel's perspective, this was a mistake or not still remains to be seen. I find it difficult to believe Israeli political and military leaders did not anticipate invasions of Gaza to prevent rocket attacks would be necessary from time to time-- it the final analysis it still may be a less wasteful use of their resources than permanent occupation.

    As to some of your other points made up-thread:

    1. I find it strange you are using the Palestinian struggle to illustrate points about Islam in general. Up until the  1980s, Islamist forces were a negligible component of the conflict, which, up until then, had been a largely secular affair over boring shit like "land", which is the cause of most armed conflicts throughout history. It wasn't until the early 1990s that the Islamist forces were poised to soon eclipse the secular leadership, not just of the Palestinian people, but of the Arab street in general. Furthermore, at the beginning of the conflict almost 15% of the Palestinian population was Christian and fighting on the same side as the Muslims.

    2. Muslim double-standards? Okay, but come on...double-standards and hypocrisy are not something exclusive to Islam-- they are rampant amongst any worldview, religious or secular.

     



    Why should Palestinians be forced to pay the price?They shouldn't & they aren't for the most part, the reason they're paying any price is their own folly, extremism & bombings.


    As for the Brits' screwing the Palestinians', colonization is tough for everyone, as is freedom from colonization. The Brits screwed various people when they gave independence to their colonized territories who adjusted better. Palestine was a tiny non sovereign part of the Arab land Brits ruled, the Brits divided the Indian sub continent as well, this time on Muslim demands. Millions of non Muslims were forced to leave those lands, but unlike the violent & whining Palestinians' they took their destiny into their own hands & rebuilt their lives. Pakistan after having acheived its own Muslim land like the Jews have their Jewish land, did not turn out to be an Israel, but a land as violent as the oppressed Palestinians'. They too again attacked & claimed a portion of Kashmir in India. The reason the world is so clued in to the Palestinians' supposed plight is due to their violence & whinings, people believe they have suffered some unique type of unjust deprivement.

    As to why I have used the Muslim example is because, a struggle in tiny Palestine has the entire Ummah detesting Israel. Malaysian Mahathir, who keeps the Chinese & Indians non Muslims in Dhimmitude in Malaysia, had said in an international Conference that "Jews Rule the World." Yes, conflict is more often than not over land, with religion playing a bit part, but I haven't seen Catholic Brazil or Venezuela being up in arms over the Irish Troubles of the past. It was a localised struggle.www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,100234,00.html

    As for whether Israel was indeed being magnanimous or not, whatever their actual intentions, it tried its level best, which I've never seen its Muslim neighbours do, or for that matter any other nation do. China never returned a portion of occupied Tibet, of course the Tibetans aren't so violence prone. Thousands of Jews' too were forced to flee the Arab lands after the Israel Palestinian conflict began.

    I wonder what these Arab lands would do were the situations reversed, if Jews were a powerless minority living under them & prone to acts of suicidal terrorism.

    The reason the Muslim Palestinians' haven't moved on, unlike the Christian Palestinians or the non Muslim Indians forced to flee Pakistan is because of the faith itself, they chose to elect someone like the Hamas as their sovereign, which doesn't want a two state solution, it simply wants to wipe Israel off the map.       

    Hypocrisy, double standards maybe endemic to all faiths & all countries', but Muslims are indulging in it today more than everyone else. The site I'm pasting a  link to is a very anti Islamic site, but it does mention the list of attacks motivated by Islam on a day to day basis.Since you mentioned about secular struggles over boring shit like land, this site does not include any attacks by either the PLO or the Kurdistan Workers' Party, both of which identify themselves with localised nationalisms, it only include jihad.www.thereligionofpeace.com/
    If Turks or Indonesians or anyone else in the Ummah wants to sympathise with Palestinians coz Jews stole land from them, there seems to be no rebuke against the Islamists in Thailand, Kashmir, Philippines who are bent on wrenching away land from Non Muslims who are butchering Non Muslims on a daily basis(More casualties than Palestine, but since these people aren't prone to counter violence or whinings, you don't hear of them that often) or of similar Islamist violence in completely Muslim countries like Algeria or Somalia.


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #19 - March 21, 2009, 08:25 AM

    Quote from: Q-Man
    You think Israel withdrawing from Gaza was because they were being nice? My, my-- you are entirely misreading the situation. It was a realpolitick decision-- the cost of constant military occupation of Gaza was too high, so the IDF made a strategic redeployment of its forces to the much more coveted West Bank. Whether, from Israel's perspective, this was a mistake or not still remains to be seen. I find it difficult to believe Israeli political and military leaders did not anticipate invasions of Gaza to prevent rocket attacks would be necessary from time to time-- it the final analysis it still may be a less wasteful use of their resources than permanent occupation.

    Oh, I almost forgot that Israel is pure evil and is completely incapable of doing anything good. Thanks for the reminder. Anything Israel does must be out of sheer malice, whereas this is NOT the case for other countries and organisations. We live in a world of pure altruism, with the exception of the Zionist Entity, of course.
     
    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #20 - March 21, 2009, 01:07 PM

    but unlike the violent & whining Palestinians'


    This statement, defaming an entire people, is starting to make me think a debate with you is pointless.

    Quote
    As for whether Israel was indeed being magnanimous or not, whatever their actual intentions, it tried its level best, which I've never seen its Muslim neighbours do, or for that matter any other nation do. China never returned a portion of occupied Tibet, of course the Tibetans aren't so violence prone. Thousands of Jews' too were forced to flee the Arab lands after the Israel Palestinian conflict began.


    Irrelevant. The point I made was that the decision to withdraw from Gaza was a strategic one, not some grand gesture of kindness. These statements do not refute that.
    Quote
    The reason the Muslim Palestinians' haven't moved on, unlike the Christian Palestinians

     

    Please provide evidence the Christian Palestinians have "moved on"

    Quote
    they chose to elect someone like the Hamas as their sovereign, which doesn't want a two state solution, it simply wants to wipe Israel off the map.     

      

    The reasons for the rise of Hamas are varied. Are you saying the only,  or primary reason, Hamas was elected is that Palestinians are a bunch of bloodthirsty bigots?

    Quote
    Hypocrisy, double standards maybe endemic to all faiths & all countries', but Muslims are indulging in it today more than everyone else.


    There is no possible way you could know that or demonstrate it. That is an entirely unfounded and untestable hypothesis.

    Quote
    The site I'm pasting a  link to is a very anti Islamic site,


    That's an understatement. It's a right-wing, reactionary Muslim-bashing site, but hey...potato, potato (fuck, that doesn't work when you're writing it out).

    Quote
    but it does mention the list of attacks motivated by Islam on a day to day basis.Since you mentioned about secular struggles over boring shit like land, this site does not include any attacks by either the PLO or the Kurdistan Workers' Party, both of which identify themselves with localised nationalisms, it only include jihad.www.thereligionofpeace.com/


    First off, I said before the 1980s/1990s it was primarily a secular affair-- this site lists attacks since 2001, so is useless in refuting my point.

    Second, as to the methodology you claim this oh-so reliable site uses (and very fair and balanced, I'm sure), there is nothing indicating that secular Palestinian groups are excluded. In fact:

    (a) "2002.03.02     Israel     Mar Saba     1     0     Jerusalem police detective assassinated by Tanzim while on holiday in the desert." Tanzim is a Fatah militia (definitely members of the PLO), they are not Islamists, and it's a given that police will be considered legitimate targets in any insurgency.

    (b) Several incidents like this are listed: "2001.11.02     Israel     Ofra     1     0     19-year-old soldier killed when Palestinian gunmen open fire at a roadblock.", where the targets were clearly military and no organization responsible for the attack is listed, therefore I don't know how you or the site can claim such acts were motivated by Islamic extremism, especially in an area of the world that still has secular insurgent groups that are active.

    (c) Then there's this one: "2001.10.17     Israel     Jerusalem     1     0     Israeli Tourism Minister, 75, assassinated in the hallway of the Hyatt Hotel." Although the site neglected to list the organization responsible, it is well known that this attack was carried out by the PFLP, an openly Marxist Palestinian organization.

    (d) There are also SEVERAL Fatah-linked attacks listed (Fatah is most certainly PLO), here's one: "2001.10.28     Israel     Metzer     1     0     Fatah terrorists kill one Jew in a machine gun attack." Notice how they simply say "a Jew" was killed-- no indication of whether the Jew in question was a soldier or policeman or not, leaving the reader with the distinct (though perhaps untrue) impression that the person killed was a civilian and was targeted for their religion. Which brings me to my next point...

    (e) The site also lists many, many bus-stop attacks without listing who was targeted exactly. It's a pretty common tactic for Palestinian militants to machine gun bus-stops where Israeli reservists are congregated, as IDF reservists frequently use public transportation and are sometimes unarmed while doing so. But again, without including any information to let us know whether this is the case or not, many readers will simply assume that it was a random attack against civilians.

    So yeah, I say your source and its methodology are bullshit.

    fuck you
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #21 - March 21, 2009, 01:08 PM

    Quote from: Q-Man
    You think Israel withdrawing from Gaza was because they were being nice? My, my-- you are entirely misreading the situation. It was a realpolitick decision-- the cost of constant military occupation of Gaza was too high, so the IDF made a strategic redeployment of its forces to the much more coveted West Bank. Whether, from Israel's perspective, this was a mistake or not still remains to be seen. I find it difficult to believe Israeli political and military leaders did not anticipate invasions of Gaza to prevent rocket attacks would be necessary from time to time-- it the final analysis it still may be a less wasteful use of their resources than permanent occupation.

    Oh, I almost forgot that Israel is pure evil and is completely incapable of doing anything good. Thanks for the reminder. Anything Israel does must be out of sheer malice, whereas this is NOT the case for other countries and organisations. We live in a world of pure altruism, with the exception of the Zionist Entity, of course.
     
    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


    Being obnoxious and sarcastic is not an argument in and of itself, which leads me to believe you really don't have a good counterpoint to offer.

    fuck you
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #22 - March 21, 2009, 02:49 PM

    @ Q Man
    1)Defaming an entire people makes debates pointless? Sure, entire people in the clutches of any bigoted ideology, be it Nazism or religious fanaticism need to be defamed, & the Palestinians are in the clutches of a violent ideology.

    2)The decision to withdraw from Gaza was a strategic one? Sure, it probably was but that does not take away from the fact that the Hamas or Palestinians could've reacted similarly-by calm discussions instead of violence, which they failed to do.

    3)Whether Christian Palestinians have moved on? For the most part yes. Where is the Christian Palestinian suicide bomber? Where is the suicide bomber amongst the millions of non Muslim Pakistanis & Bangladeshis forced to flee those lands created due to religious demands? Where is the Tibetan Buddhist suicide bomber? Using abusive language & knowing two bits about the creation of Israel unfortunately doesn't make you knowledgable about other occupied or deprived people.

    4) Why Hamas were elected? Yep, the primary reason is that the Palestinian Muslims are a bunch of bigoted & bloodthirsty people. Millions more non Muslims fled Pakistan & Bangladesh when these two states were created due to Muslim demands, they recognize Pakistan. When colonial lands are created due to religious or ethnic demands, people suffer. People can choose to move on, or they can't. Dividing the planet Earth into two, Dar ul Islam-the House of Islam & Dar ul Harb or the House of War doesn't exactly help to move on.

    5) Ignoring your poor attempts at poetry, the figures speak for themselves, even from this right wing site. There are currently attempts by Jihadists to steal lands from Southern Thailand, Southern Phillipines, Kashmir & other places-& deaths regularly.

    Even wiping Israel off the map won't sort out any of these conflicts, which are all over depriving some or the other Non Muslim group from their lands.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #23 - March 21, 2009, 03:17 PM

    @ Q Man
    1)Defaming an entire people makes debates pointless?


    It makes me debating with you pointless, yes. Though arguably debating on the internet is a pointless affair to begin with.

    Quote
    2)The decision to withdraw from Gaza was a strategic one? Sure, it probably was but that does not take away from the fact that the Hamas or Palestinians could've reacted similarly-by calm discussions instead of violence, which they failed to do.


    This issue was never in dispute. You said Israel's withdrawal from Gaza was a "magnanimous" gesture. I said it had nothing to do with that and was a purely strategic decision. You are changing the terms of debate.

    Quote
    3)Whether Christian Palestinians have moved on? For the most part yes. Where is the Christian Palestinian suicide bomber?


    The PFLP, a secular Marxist organization and the second largest member of the PLO, was founded by a Christian who served as General Secretary until 2000. It has participated in suicide bombings. The DFLP, PFLP-GC and Fatah all have Christian members, some in leadership. Still waiting on that proof that Palestinian Christians have "moved on".
    Quote
    4) Why Hamas were elected? Yep, the primary reason is that the Palestinian Muslims are a bunch of bigoted & bloodthirsty people.


    I'd like to see you try to prove that. Should be fun if you use the same sort of sources you did above.

    Quote
    5) Ignoring your poor attempts at poetry,

     

    Not sure what you mean by that
    Quote
    the figures speak for themselves, even from this right wing site.


    No they don't, not for the point you were trying to prove. Again I think you are considering changing the terms of debate. You wrote: "but it does mention the list of attacks motivated by Islam on a day to day basis.Since you mentioned about secular struggles over boring shit like land, this site does not include any attacks by either the PLO or the Kurdistan Workers' Party, both of which identify themselves with localised nationalisms, it only include jihad.". I think I pretty clearly refuted this statement.
    Quote
    There are currently attempts by Jihadists to steal lands from Southern Thailand, Southern Phillipines, Kashmir & other places-& deaths regularly.


    Where does national liberation end and theft begin? Actually, I don't think I can give an answer to that question. It's a very difficult one-- always has been.

    Quote
    Even wiping Israel off the map won't sort out any of these conflicts, which are all over depriving some or the other Non Muslim group from their lands.


    Yeah.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going over the bridge to grab some tasty Halal food prepared by the faithful. Wink

    You get the last word.

    fuck you
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #24 - March 21, 2009, 03:36 PM


    Where does national liberation end and theft begin? Actually, I don't think I can give an answer to that question. It's a very difficult one-- always has been.


    This is a very easy answer, you can always ask your faithful, unless they're going to indulge in Taqiyya, the world is divided into two according to Islam, one part is Dar ul Islam or the House of Islam, the other is Dar ul Harb or the House of War, clearly indicating how Islamic theology believes that its disputes with others are going to be resolved. Thus wanting the British colonizers to provide Muslims a piece of their own land in Pakistan & Bangladesh & depriving some Non Muslims of lives & land in the process is national liberation, or rather Islamic liberation & no sin. Wanting to deprive Thai Buddhists, Filipino Catholics or others of their lives & lands too is Islamic style liberation. However, Jews stealing any inch of their land is a very wicked theft & the Ummah from Indonesia to Turkey is roused to anger by this action, & advocates & praises holy war & conspiracy theories against Jews.
    Having wars with Russians for a separate Province is perfectly just Islamist liberation too. However, if Russia concedes to Muslim demands, lets them impose other liberating stuff  like compulsory veilings, honor killings & polygamy, they may just remain placated for a short time. http://www.nowpublic.com/world/chechen-leader-imposes-strict-brand-islam

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #25 - March 21, 2009, 04:22 PM

    Being obnoxious and sarcastic is not an argument in and of itself, which leads me to believe you really don't have a good counterpoint to offer.

    Sarcastic yes, but obnoxious? I was just pointing out to the absurdity of your claim that Israel must always have ulterior motives.

    Quote from: Q-Man
    Where does national liberation end and theft begin? Actually, I don't think I can give an answer to that question. It's a very difficult one-- always has been.

    So when Israel is in question, it's all about evil Zionist land-grabbers and the heroic Palestinians, whereas we should consider the activities of these Jihadists in "a different context."

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #26 - March 21, 2009, 04:42 PM


    Where does national liberation end and theft begin? Actually, I don't think I can give an answer to that question. It's a very difficult one-- always has been.


    This is a very easy answer, you can always ask your faithful, unless they're going to indulge in Taqiyya, the world is divided into two according to Islam, one part is Dar ul Islam or the House of Islam, the other is Dar ul Harb or the House of War, clearly indicating how Islamic theology believes that its disputes with others are going to be resolved. Thus wanting the British colonizers to provide Muslims a piece of their own land in Pakistan & Bangladesh & depriving some Non Muslims of lives & land in the process is national liberation, or rather Islamic liberation & no sin. Wanting to deprive Thai Buddhists, Filipino Catholics or others of their lives & lands too is Islamic style liberation. However, Jews stealing any inch of their land is a very wicked theft & the Ummah from Indonesia to Turkey is roused to anger by this action, & advocates & praises holy war & conspiracy theories against Jews.
    Having wars with Russians for a separate Province is perfectly just Islamist liberation too. However, if Russia concedes to Muslim demands, lets them impose other liberating stuff  like compulsory veilings, honor killings & polygamy, they may just remain placated for a short time. http://www.nowpublic.com/world/chechen-leader-imposes-strict-brand-islam



    Except that, not being Muslim myself, I could care less about whether a particular national liberation struggle is justified by Islamic doctrine. I only care whether it is objectively and rationally justified or not-- in some instances an objectively and rationally justified liberation struggle may also be justified by Islamic doctrine (as you mentioned when it involves the land rights of Muslims), while in other cases (where it involves the land-rights of non-Muslims in Muslim areas) it may be condemned by Islamic doctrine. But simply because someone or something objectionable to you supports a national liberation struggle does not create a prima facie invalidation of the justification for said struggle. That's like saying the autobahns are a bad idea just because much of the construction was initiated by the Nazis.

    fuck you
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #27 - March 21, 2009, 04:53 PM

    Being obnoxious and sarcastic is not an argument in and of itself, which leads me to believe you really don't have a good counterpoint to offer.

    Sarcastic yes, but obnoxious? I was just pointing out to the absurdity of your claim that Israel must always have ulterior motives.


    I made no such claim of "ulterior motives". The strategic decision to withdraw was openly discussed in Israeli government and the Israeli press-- and the reasons for the unilateral disengagement were made clear. You like putting words in people's mouths and assigning unfounded ideological motives to them, don't you?

    Quote from: Q-Man
    Where does national liberation end and theft begin? Actually, I don't think I can give an answer to that question. It's a very difficult one-- always has been.

    So when Israel is in question, it's all about evil Zionist land-grabbers and the heroic Palestinians, whereas we should consider the activities of these Jihadists in "a different context."


    Wow, I guess you are a big fan of putting words in people's mouths. Only a partisan blinded by self-righteous anger and a Manichean worldview could possibly draw such a ridiculous inference from what I wrote.

    Tell me, Zaephon, do you sit at home alone drinking coffee and chaining cigarettes while throwing darts at an Osama Bin Laden target, grumbling "Grrrr....Islam! Zaephon smash!"? I would suggest that pot, Valium, or perhaps a regular sexual outlet might provide the psychological space necessary for you to engage in a calm, rational debate with me.

    fuck you
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #28 - March 21, 2009, 05:06 PM

    Quote from: Q-Man
    Tell me, Zaephon, do you sit at home alone drinking coffee and chaining cigarettes while throwing darts at an Osama Bin Laden target, grumbling "Grrrr....Islam! Zaephon smash!"? I would suggest that pot, Valium, or perhaps a regular sexual outlet might provide the psychological space necessary for you to engage in a calm, rational debate with me.

    Hm... talk about "obnoxiousness."

    Quote from: Q-Man
    Only a partisan blinded by self-righteous anger and a Manichean worldview could possibly draw such a ridiculous inference from what I wrote.

    Very calm and rational of you.  Roll Eyes

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Hypocricy at its best, demonstrated by the UK Gouverment!
     Reply #29 - March 21, 2009, 05:21 PM

    Quote from: Q-Man
    Tell me, Zaephon, do you sit at home alone drinking coffee and chaining cigarettes while throwing darts at an Osama Bin Laden target, grumbling "Grrrr....Islam! Zaephon smash!"? I would suggest that pot, Valium, or perhaps a regular sexual outlet might provide the psychological space necessary for you to engage in a calm, rational debate with me.

    Hm... talk about "obnoxiousness."

    Quote from: Q-Man
    Only a partisan blinded by self-righteous anger and a Manichean worldview could possibly draw such a ridiculous inference from what I wrote.

    Very calm and rational of you.  Roll Eyes


    Never claimed to be calm and rational or not be obnoxious myself. It's that whole lack of shame thing, remember?

    fuck you
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