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Theme Changer

 Topic: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia

 (Read 9371 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     OP - March 20, 2009, 04:16 PM

    With all the conversation of Islamophobia going on at this site recently & with very polarizing opinions on the issue, with some commenters claiming that there's no such thing as Islamophobia at all while those at the other end of the spectrum claim that Islamophobia is very real & a Hizbullah journalist is more potentially threatening than a Dutch MP, I thought I'll post this piece on Islamophobia v. Infidelophobia.

    www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/gods/islam_islamophobia.htm

    Islamophobia is the fear\loathing of Islam by non Muslims, ex Muslims, freethinkers, nudists, feminists, religious satirists etc while Infidelophobia is similar attitude towards non Muslims by Muslims.

    Which is more potentially threatening?  Thinking hard

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #1 - March 20, 2009, 04:43 PM

    What's wrong with loathing a religion though? I understand if this turns in some cases to Muslimphobia, but that should be combated on it's own terms rather than combating Islamophobia.

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #2 - March 20, 2009, 06:25 PM

    Which is more potentially threatening?  Thinking hard

    The charges of "Islamophobia" that come forth from the mouths of apologists and other fuzzy thinkers is a tactic to get away from the realities of the behaviors and intentions of Muslims. The reality is that Islamophobia is ad-Hominem and is used to stifle freedom of speech.

  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #3 - March 20, 2009, 08:12 PM

    With all the conversation of Islamophobia going on at this site recently & with very polarizing opinions on the issue, with some commenters claiming that there's no such thing as Islamophobia at all while those at the other end of the spectrum claim that Islamophobia is very real & a Hizbullah journalist is more potentially threatening than a Dutch MP, I thought I'll post this piece on Islamophobia v. Infidelophobia.

    www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/gods/islam_islamophobia.htm

    Islamophobia is the fear\loathing of Islam by non Muslims, ex Muslims, freethinkers, nudists, feminists, religious satirists etc while Infidelophobia is similar attitude towards non Muslims by Muslims.

    Which is more potentially threatening?  Thinking hard


    Criticising Islam or Muslims is not Islamaphobia. Purposefully discriminating against Muslims is Islamaphobia. And that is very real and very serious.

    For example, a study found that you are far less likely to be invited to a job interview if you have a Muslim name than if you did not have a Muslim name. Muslim graveyards and mosques in France have repeatedly been vandalised. People being attacked for being Muslim. I myself was started on in a pub by some lads for being "muslim", whereas ten years ago, they would have started on me for being a "paki".

    I have found that people who deny that Islamaphobia exists tend to have Islamophobic tendencies themselves, such as Daniel Pipes and Salman Rushdie.

    Referring to your comment about Geert Wilders and Ibrahim Moussawi, I would much rather have a Hezbollah journalist come to Britain to give an academic lecture on political Islam at  the School of Oriental and African Studies, than having a nasty, right-wing Dutch politician come to Britain for the express purpose of inciting anti Islamic feeling.

    One thing I dislike about this message board is that many people are dogmatically anti muslim (I am not talking about you Rashna!  Afro ), which makes them no better than the dogmatic Muslims. There is at least one person on this forum who will never say a good word about Islam or Muslims.  Not all muslims are bad people and not everything about Islam is bad. There are some good parts and there are some bad parts, as with every other religion and political system!



    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #4 - March 20, 2009, 09:03 PM

    If Salman Rushdie has developed Islamophobic tendencies, I think there is some excuse for him, don't you?

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #5 - March 20, 2009, 09:12 PM

    If Salman Rushdie has developed Islamophobic tendencies, I think there is some excuse for him, don't you?


    Thats a fair point - I think I might retract that statement!

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #6 - March 20, 2009, 09:30 PM

    Quote from: aliadiere
    One thing I dislike about this message board is that many people are dogmatically anti muslim

    Oh my. When you think a Hezbollah terrorist has more right to enter the UK than a democratically elected MP, this has nothing to do with prejudices and dogma, right?

    I am not a dogmatic Islamophobe, I am a practical Islamophobe. I see plenty of examples that Islam is violent and destructive in different corners of the world. Of course Islam is not pure evil, because there is no such thing as pure evil --we have been through this a zillion times before. The question is, who cares to find a few golden ores in a bag full of shit?

    Quote from: aliadiere
    Criticising Islam or Muslims is not Islamaphobia. Purposefully discriminating against Muslims is Islamaphobia. And that is very real and very serious.

    Wrong, wrong, wrong. Who are you enforce this strict definition of Islamophobia? For example, saying that the Western civilisation is superior to Islam, or that Islam is inherently and violently misogynistic, can also bring charges of Islamophobia in some circles.

    I am not going to give up my freedom to condemn Islam. As long as Muslims do not challenge the backward doctrines of Islam, they will be doomed to unhappiness. Sorry.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #7 - March 20, 2009, 09:56 PM

    Quote from: aliadiere
    One thing I dislike about this message board is that many people are dogmatically anti muslim

    Oh my. When you think a Hezbollah terrorist has more right to enter the UK than a democratically elected MP, this has nothing to do with prejudices and dogma, right?.


    When I was referring to people being dogmatic, I was specifically referring to you Zaephon. You have just proved that by calling Ibrahim Moussawi a Hezbollah terrorist. He is a spokesperson and journalist for Hezbollah, and by no means can be called a terrorist, even if you consider Hezbollah to be a terrorist organisation.

    Just because Geert Wilders is a democratically elected Dutch politician, that does not mean that he is a good person with good intentions. He was coming over to England for the express purpose of inciting anti muslim sentiment. I do not want anybody coming over to my country to try to cause animosity between different groups of people.

    Moussawi on the other hand was invited to Britain by an academic institution, to give a lecture to academics on Political Islam. There was absolutely nothing threatening about his visit.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #8 - March 20, 2009, 10:51 PM

    What's wrong with loathing a religion though? I understand if this turns in some cases to Muslimphobia, but that should be combated on it's own terms rather than combating Islamophobia.


    This is a great distinction to make intellectually, but in reality I think with most people the concepts blur together so frequently that the distinction is a purely academic one . Check out most of the posts at FFI, Little Green Footballs, Free Republic, etc. and tell me I'm wrong.

    fuck you
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #9 - March 20, 2009, 10:55 PM

    Quote from: aliadiere
    When I was referring to people being dogmatic, I was specifically referring to you Zaephon.

    Yes, that's why I challenged your viewpoints.

    Quote from: aliadiere
    You have just proved that by calling Ibrahim Moussawi a Hezbollah terrorist. He is a spokesperson and journalist for Hezbollah, and by no means can be called a terrorist, even if you consider Hezbollah to be a terrorist organisation.

    A terrorist organisation doesn't just consist of militia. Every successful terrorist organisation needs propaganda to cover up their aims and make their actions seem less repugnant. In other words, terrorism is more complicated than blowing people and buildings to smithereens.

    Moussawi has repeatedly quoted from the Protocols of Zion, and claimed that "Jews are a lesion on the forehead of history." Despite his vitriolic anti-Jewish hatred, you see nothing wrong with inviting this guy over to the UK. Sorry, were you saying that "you don't want anybody coming over to your country to try to cause animosity between different groups of people?" How on earth can you reconcile this utopian statement with the venomous anti-Semitic remarks of Moussawi?

    Quote from: aliadiere
    I do not want anybody coming over to my country to try to cause animosity between different groups of people.

    The Quran is full of animosity towards infidels and apostates. The Quran preaches hatred against Jews, calling them a cursed people. If you truly want to be impartial, you would have to ban the Quran also, which would be a stupid thing to do.

    You are under the illusion that social classes or different groups of people are inherently harmonious with each other, provided that nobody stirs up "hatred" between them. The clash between Islam and Western society is ideological and cultural. If Wilders did not exist, somebody else would be fanning the flames. Even if you were right about Wilders, banning him from the UK for his ideas is a crime against free speech.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #10 - March 20, 2009, 11:13 PM

    What's wrong with loathing a religion though? I understand if this turns in some cases to Muslimphobia, but that should be combated on it's own terms rather than combating Islamophobia.

    This is a great distinction to make intellectually, but in reality I think with most people the concepts blur together so frequently that the distinction is a purely academic one . Check out most of the posts at FFI, Little Green Footballs, Free Republic, etc. and tell me I'm wrong.

    You're not wrong, and the distinction is often used by those who are bigoted in an attempt to pretend that they aren't, but I still think it is (or should be) a valid distinction. The problem is that the converse is also true. People who deny the distinction often do so in an attempt to stifle all criticism of Islam, regardless of what it is based on.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #11 - March 20, 2009, 11:38 PM

    I am a bit of an idiot and dont know how to quote properly, so I fucked that last post up! Anyway, quotes in this post are in Bold.

    A terrorist organisation doesn't just consist of militia. Every successful terrorist organisation needs propaganda to cover up their aims and make their actions seem less repugnant. In other words, terrorism is more complicated than blowing people and buildings to smithereens.

    Moussawi has repeatedly quoted from the Protocols of Zion, and claimed that "Jews are a lesion on the forehead of history." Despite his vitriolic anti-Jewish hatred, you see nothing wrong with inviting this guy over to the UK. Sorry, were you saying that "you don't want anybody coming over to your country to try to cause animosity between different groups of people?" How on earth can you reconcile this utopian statement with the venomous anti-Semitic remarks of Moussawi?


    Firstly I do not consider Hezbollah to be a terrorist organisation, because Lebanon has the right to defend itself. If Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation, the IDF is definitely a terrorist organisation.

    Secondly his purpose to come to England was not to cause any trouble. As I have said before, his purpose was to give a lecture at The School of Oriental and African Studies on Political Islam!

    Thirdly, I very much doubt that he has quoted from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, because he is a respectable academic and not an idiot (which you have to be to believe in that), and I have not seen anything that says that he did quote from it.

    The Quran is full of animosity towards infidels and apostates. The Quran preaches hatred against Jews, calling them a cursed people. If you truly want to be impartial, you would have to ban the Quran also, which would be a stupid thing to do.

    The majority of muslims do not use the Qur'an to condemn and/or persecute infidels, apostates and Jews. The Muslims who do are not tolerated!

    You are under the illusion that social classes or different groups of people are inherently harmonious with each other, provided that nobody stirs up "hatred" between them. The clash between Islam and Western society is ideological and cultural. If Wilders did not exist, somebody else would be fanning the flames. Even if you were right about Wilders, banning him from the UK for his ideas is a crime against free speech

    I was not saying that the UK is a wonderfully happy and utopian society where everyone gets along fine and if Wilders came over and showed his film, all of a sudden there would be a civil war between Muslims and Non-Muslims. What I am saying is in a time where we need to have better understanding and build bridges between communities, having Wilders come over to show a film about Islam being inherently evil is neither constructive nor responsible.

    You talk about Wilders' right to free speech. I don't believe in free speech. I certainly believe that people have the right to criticise political systems and religions, but I also  believe that free speech has limits and I do not believe that people should have the freedom to incite hatred.

    How come you believe that banning Wilders from the UK for his ideas is a crime against free speech but banning Moussawi from the UK for his ideas is not a crime against free speech? How come you criticise Moussawi for his "venemous anti-semitic remarks" but you do not criticise Wilders for his "venemous anti-muslim remarks"?

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #12 - March 20, 2009, 11:44 PM

    @ aliadiere, I fixed the tags while you were modifying; anyways...it' simple:

    For ex.: [quote**=username]XZY[/quote]


    Just omit the ** to get the quote displayed properly.


    Sorry, that was off-topic.



    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #13 - March 20, 2009, 11:50 PM

    Don't confuse him with code. Tongue

    The way to do it is to highlight the text you want to quote and then click the quote button above the reply window. If you hover over it you'll see the title. It's next to the # button, on the right.

    Alternatively, when you are typing your reply you'll see a list of earlier posts down the page. You can click the Quote link for any of those and they will be inserted into your reply at the current position of your cursor.

    All of which has fuck all to do with Islamophobia. Carry on. parrot

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #14 - March 20, 2009, 11:59 PM

    Quote from: aliadiere
    The majority of muslims do not use the Qur'an to condemn and/or persecute infidels, apostates and Jews. The Muslims who do are not tolerated!

    Really? This is just pure fantasy --especially the second sentence.

    Quote from: aliadiere
    Thirdly, I very much doubt that he has quoted from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, because he is a respectable academic and not an idiot (which you have to be to believe in that), and I have not seen anything that says that he did quote from it.

    A respectable academic defending a terrorist organisation? A respectable academic saying that Jews are a lesion on the forehead of history? No, not my cup of tea, please. He is as respectable as David Duke. If saying this makes me an idiot, I am happy to bear the title.

    Quote from: aliadiere
    all of a sudden there would be a civil war between Muslims and Non-Muslims.

    Thank you for summarising your irrational fears in a single sentence. No, there would no civil war. Some radical Muslims would be upset and that would be the end of the story. This argument of mediocre pacifism does not appeal to me. You fear the very shadow of Islamic radicals, how convenient.

    Did any civil war take place in Denmark when Wilders' movie was released? I think not.



    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #15 - March 21, 2009, 12:34 AM

    Quote from: aliadiere
    Firstly I do not consider Hezbollah to be a terrorist organisation, because Lebanon has the right to defend itself. If Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation, the IDF is definitely a terrorist organisation.


    Not true.  The Lebanese Army are the equivalent to the IDF, not Hezbollah or any other armed group which operate within Lebanon.

    Quote
    Secondly his purpose to come to England was not to cause any trouble. As I have said before, his purpose was to give a lecture at The School of Oriental and African Studies on Political Islam!

     

    Wilders purpose in coming to Britain was to make a speech in the House of Lords and discuss the film Fitna.  It wasn't his purpose to cause trouble either.  The trouble was threatened from other sources, not from Wilders himself.

    Quote
    Thirdly, I very much doubt that he has quoted from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, because he is a respectable academic and not an idiot (which you have to be to believe in that), and I have not seen anything that says that he did quote from it.


    I've no idea whether he did or not, so I won't accuse him of it.  However, I do know that he's a spokesperson for an organisation which does express anti-Semitic statements.  If Wilders is likely to cause offense, or "trouble" as you put it, then so is a Hezbollah spokesperson.

    Quote
    You talk about Wilders' right to free speech. I don't believe in free speech. I certainly believe that people have the right to criticise political systems and religions, but I also  believe that free speech has limits and I do not believe that people should have the freedom to incite hatred.


    I do believe in free speech, and I believe that the current trend for silencing free speech with the excuse of "incitement" to this or that is a dangerous one.  The cases where freedom of speech has to be curtailed to avoid violence or criminality are, in reality, very rare.  The real reason why Wilders, Hezbollah spokesmen and George Galloway are refused entry into other countries is that there are influential people there who hate what they have to say. 

    That's the test of democracy, isn't it?  Its very easy to support freedom for people you agree with to speak.  When it comes to somebody you disagree with, which takes precedence - principles, or power politics?  Britain and Canada have come down on the side of the latter, and that is a bad thing regardless of what any of us think about individuals who have fallen foul of it.

    I personally despise George Galloway, but I am still disgusted that Canada refused him entry into the country.

    Anyway, its all stupid.  In this day and age the words of Wilders, Hezbollah and Galloway are all available to people in all parts of the world through the Internet, so banning them from a country does nothing apart from give them more publicity.  Wilders' party is now the most popular one in Holland, and his profile has massively increased in the rest of the world too, as a result of Britain banning him.  If he really was inciting hatred, the British Home Secretary would have to be a co-defendant for helping him.







    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #16 - March 21, 2009, 12:42 AM

    Quote
    Quote from: aliadiere
    The majority of muslims do not use the Qur'an to condemn and/or persecute infidels, apostates and Jews. The Muslims who do are not tolerated!

    Really? This is just pure fantasy --especially the second sentence.


    I was talking about the UK in particular. I also know hundreds of muslims and although they may say that western practices and lifestyles are decadent and wrong (in the same way we do on this forum about islam) they certainly do not condemn , persecute or discriminate against infidels, apostates or jews.

    Quote
    Quote from: aliadiere
    Thirdly, I very much doubt that he has quoted from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, because he is a respectable academic and not an idiot (which you have to be to believe in that), and I have not seen anything that says that he did quote from it.

    A respectable academic defending a terrorist organisation? A respectable academic saying that Jews are a lesion on the forehead of history? No, not my cup of tea, please. He is as respectable as David Duke. If saying this makes me an idiot, I am happy to bear the title.


    We are going to have to agree to disagree on Hezbollah. You and many others may consider it to be a terrorist organisation whereas many others do not consider it to be a terrorist organisation, including many non-muslims and the majority of Lebanese Christians.

    He is a respected academic, hence the School of Oriental and African Studies inviting him to do a talk on Political Islam. He has 2 BAs, an MA and a PhD and certainly knows what he is talking about in Political Islam.

    I also want to clarify that what I meant was that you have to be an idiot to believe in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.


    Quote
    Quote from: aliadiere
    all of a sudden there would be a civil war between Muslims and Non-Muslims.

    Thank you for summarising your irrational fears in a single sentence. No, there would no civil war. Some radical Muslims would be upset and that would be the end of the story. This argument of mediocre pacifism does not appeal to me. You fear the very shadow of Islamic radicals, how convenient.

    Did any civil war take place in Denmark when Wilders' movie was released? I think not.


    Why have you misquoted me? I was just stating what you were suggesting I was stating and clarifying myself. read my post again.

    what I actually said was:

    Quote
    I was not saying that the UK is a wonderfully happy and utopian society where everyone gets along fine and if Wilders came over and showed his film, all of a sudden there would be a civil war between Muslims and Non-Muslims. What I am saying is in a time where we need to have better understanding and build bridges between communities, having Wilders come over to show a film about Islam being inherently evil is neither constructive nor responsible.



    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #17 - March 21, 2009, 12:53 AM

    Quote
    Quote
    Secondly his purpose to come to England was not to cause any trouble. As I have said before, his purpose was to give a lecture at The School of Oriental and African Studies on Political Islam!

     

    Wilders purpose in coming to Britain was to make a speech in the House of Lords and discuss the film Fitna.  It wasn't his purpose to cause trouble either.  The trouble was threatened from other sources, not from Wilders himself.


    Mousawi was coming to give an academic lecture to academics. He was not due to visit to try and convince people with his political views and to get people on his side.
    Wilders on the other hand was invited by two massively right wing peers, has clearly got an anti-islamic agenda and was due to come to the UK to propagate this. I think the British government were right in thinking that this was in no means helpful and would only fuel further animosity between communities.


    Quote
    Quote
    You talk about Wilders' right to free speech. I don't believe in free speech. I certainly believe that people have the right to criticise political systems and religions, but I also  believe that free speech has limits and I do not believe that people should have the freedom to incite hatred.


    I do believe in free speech, and I believe that the current trend for silencing free speech with the excuse of "incitement" to this or that is a dangerous one.  The cases where freedom of speech has to be curtailed to avoid violence or criminality are, in reality, very rare.  The real reason why Wilders, Hezbollah spokesmen and George Galloway are refused entry into other countries is that there are influential people there who hate what they have to say. 

    That's the test of democracy, isn't it?  Its very easy to support freedom for people you agree with to speak.  When it comes to somebody you disagree with, which takes precedence - principles, or power politics?  Britain and Canada have come down on the side of the latter, and that is a bad thing regardless of what any of us think about individuals who have fallen foul of it.


    Although I disagree with you about freedom of speech, I think you hit the nail on the head there. I certainly believe that there should be limits to freedom of speech but it is very difficult to place those limits.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #18 - March 21, 2009, 01:06 AM

    Quote
    Mousawi was coming to give an academic lecture to academics. He was not due to visit to try and convince people with his political views and to get people on his side.
    Wilders on the other hand was invited by two massively right wing peers, has clearly got an anti-islamic agenda and was due to come to the UK to propagate this. I think the British government were right in thinking that this was in no means helpful and would only fuel further animosity between communities.


    I think they were totally wrong.  We'll just have to agree to differ, I spose.  But you should note that Wilders was also invited to America by a couple of very right wing Republicans to attend a showing of Fitna in Congress and make a speech afterwards.  He attended, did his thing, appeared on a few talk shows and went home.  I see no evidence that his visit has fuelled anything, he didn't even get much of a turn out at Congress.

    By banning him, the UK has simply increased his profile and probly done more to further his agenda than allowing him in would have done. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #19 - March 21, 2009, 01:10 AM

    I like to see Islam similar to how I see a political party.

    It is perfectly ok to criticise any political party without being labelled as a Labourophobe or Conservophobe or Liberal-Democratophobe.

    People choose which political party to support once they are adults and informed.

    But the problem with Islam is that you are identified as a "Muslim" the moment you're born and it is very hard to reject this tag due to the threats of hellfire and years of indocrtination since birth (as is the case with other religions).

    So whilst it's perfectly ok to criticise Islam and dislike Islam... we must realise that every person who identifies themselves as a "Muslim" must be judged as an individual.

    .
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #20 - March 21, 2009, 01:53 AM

    Quote from: aliadiere
    Firstly I do not consider Hezbollah to be a terrorist organisation, because Lebanon has the right to defend itself. If Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation, the IDF is definitely a terrorist organisation.


    Not true.  The Lebanese Army are the equivalent to the IDF, not Hezbollah or any other armed group which operate within Lebanon.


    So only the military of an internationally-recognized state is justified in defending the people of a given area through armed force? I'd disagree.

    The Lebanese Army is impotent. Whatever your opinions on Hezbollah may be, their military capability (and thus their defensive capability) is much greater than that of the Lebanese Army. If I were living in South Lebanon and told there were an invasion and I could pick between the Lebanese Army and Hezbollah to defend my village, I know who I'd pick, regardless of my politics or religion.

    fuck you
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #21 - March 21, 2009, 01:59 AM

    Quote
    So only the military of an internationally-recognized state is justified in defending the people of a given area through armed force? I'd disagree.


    That is NOT what I said.  I was responding to a phoney equivalence being drawn between Hezbollah and the IDF.  They are not equivalent - if you apply the same attitude towards definitions here as you did on the Islamofascism thread you will see why. 

    The equivalent to the IDF is the Lebanese Army, regardless of whether they are useless and ill-equipped or not.  And if they are, the solution should be to train them and arm them better, not to support other armed groups.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #22 - March 21, 2009, 08:19 AM

    Quote from: aliadiere
    I was talking about the UK in particular. I also know hundreds of muslims and although they may say that western practices and lifestyles are decadent and wrong (in the same way we do on this forum about islam) they certainly do not condemn , persecute or discriminate against infidels, apostates or jews.

    I said I especially disagree with the second sentence, i.e. your statement that racist and hateful Muslims are not tolerated in Britain. This is quite obviously not the case.

    Quote from: aliadiere
    what I actually said was:

    Okay, I misread the statement.

    Quote from: aliadiere
    He is a respected academic, hence the School of Oriental and African Studies inviting him to do a talk on Political Islam. He has 2 BAs, an MA and a PhD and certainly knows what he is talking about in Political Islam.

    Having a good education doesn't make people saints. Necmettin Erbakan, the leader of the hateful Islamist movement in Turkey, was an engineer with a postgraduate degree. Many people fall for a simple scholarly veneer. All terrorist organisations have such "educated" propagandists.

    I am still expecting you to rationalise and/or justify Moussawi's venomous anti-Semitism, because according to you, he should be allowed to walk into the UK free and preach whatever he wants.

    http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2002/10/14/021014fa_fact4?currentPage=all

    Quote
    Ibrahim Mussawi, the urbane and scholarly-seeming director of English-language news at Al Manar, called Jews "a lesion on the forehead of history."


    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #23 - March 21, 2009, 01:14 PM

    Quote
    Quote from: aliadiere
    The majority of muslims do not use the Qur'an to condemn and/or persecute infidels, apostates and Jews. The Muslims who do are not tolerated!

    Really? This is just pure fantasy --especially the second sentence.


    I was talking about the UK in particular. I also know hundreds of muslims and although they may say that western practices and lifestyles are decadent and wrong (in the same way we do on this forum about islam) they certainly do not condemn , persecute or discriminate against infidels, apostates or jews.

    But what do they do about those supposedly few muslims who condemn/persecute/discriminate against infidels/apostates/jews? How are they "not tolerated" exactly? (which i think was the main point in that reply)

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #24 - March 21, 2009, 01:27 PM

    Quote
    So only the military of an internationally-recognized state is justified in defending the people of a given area through armed force? I'd disagree.


    That is NOT what I said.  I was responding to a phoney equivalence being drawn between Hezbollah and the IDF.  They are not equivalent - if you apply the same attitude towards definitions here as you did on the Islamofascism thread you will see why. 

    The equivalent to the IDF is the Lebanese Army, regardless of whether they are useless and ill-equipped or not.  And if they are, the solution should be to train them and arm them better, not to support other armed groups.


    True, you did not say that, but then again aliadiere didn't say that Hezbollah was the exact equivalent to the IDF either. S/he (sorry, not sure of your gender aliadiere) simply said that Hezbollah is a group dedicated to the armed defense of Lebanon, and if that makes them terrorists, then the IDF are terrorists too. Now I'm not saying that's true, but it does seem like the implicit extrapolation of your counterargument would be that only the legitimacy of the state would determine whether an armed group are terrorists or not, therefore both the Lebanese Army and IDF are not terrorists b/c they are official state forces, but Hezbollah are terrorists because they are not a state force. If that is incorrect, please explain your meaning.

    See, arguments like this are why I don't even like using the term "terrorist" most of the time-- the word long ago became hopelessly politicized. It seems to me that use of the term is entirely dependent on one's point-of-view, and furthermore has taken such normative meanings that objective classification of who is or is not a "terrorist" is very difficult, if not impossible. That's why I prefer to use terms like "rebels", "militants" or "insurgents", which are labels that lack normative assumptions. You can still consider a particular rebel group an abhorrent piece of shit, and debate with its apologists over that, but at least you don't have to get sucked into endless arguments over whether they are "rebels" or not.

    fuck you
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #25 - March 21, 2009, 06:41 PM

    Quote
    I am still expecting you to rationalise and/or justify Moussawi's venomous anti-Semitism, because according to you, he should be allowed to walk into the UK free and preach whatever he wants.


    I am not going to rationalise it because it cannot be rationalised. Anti semitism is not something that should be tolerated. Then again, neither is any form of descrimination. His purpose in the UK was to give a talk on political Islam and not anti semitism. If he has made anti semitic remarks, that is not something that should be tolerated. However, that does not mean that everything about the person should not be tolerated.

    I am still waiting for you to answer the following question which I asked in an earlier post -


    How come you believe that banning Wilders from the UK for his ideas is a crime against free speech but banning Moussawi from the UK for his ideas is not a crime against free speech? How come you criticise Moussawi for his "venemous anti-semitic remarks" but you do not criticise Wilders for his "venemous anti-muslim remarks"?


    Is it because you are dogmatically anti islam, or are you just a plain hypocrite?

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #26 - March 22, 2009, 09:26 AM

    Quote from: aliadiere
    Is it because you are dogmatically anti islam, or are you just a plain hypocrite?

    Sorry, are you too short of realising that the same dilemma applies to you?

    It was you who said that Wilders must be banned from the UK, whereas Moussawi must be allowed to preach whatever he wants. Can you also answer how exactly hate-spouting Muslim radicals are not tolerated in the UK, whereas a plethora of examples contradict your statement?

    Hint: Using bold text doesn't impress anyone, learn to use the "Quote" button.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #27 - March 22, 2009, 01:22 PM

    Quote
    Quote from: aliadiere
    Is it because you are dogmatically anti islam, or are you just a plain hypocrite?

    Sorry, are you too short of realising that the same dilemma applies to you?

    It was you who said that Wilders must be banned from the UK, whereas Moussawi must be allowed to preach whatever he wants. Can you also answer how exactly hate-spouting Muslim radicals are not tolerated in the UK, whereas a plethora of examples contradict your statement?

    Hint: Using bold text doesn't impress anyone, learn to use the "Quote" button.



    I did not say that Mousawi must be allowed to preach whateveer he wants in the UK. What I said was that I had no problem with Mousawi coming over to do what he wanted to do because I have no problem with his purpose. TO GIVE A LECTURE ON POLITICAL ISLAM TO THE SCHOOL OF AFRICAN AND ORIENTAL STUDIES ( I had to put that in bold because you still seem to think he was coming over to give some anti semitic rantings to a group of radical muslims, even though I have repeated that point about five times).

    However, I do have a problem with Geert Wilders' purpose, which was to incite hatred and increase divisions between communities.

    What I do not understand is how you can condemn Ibrahim Mousawi's Anti-Semitism while at the same time, defend Geert Wilders' Anti-Muslim remarks as free speech?

    Geert Wilders has stated that the Dutch government should ban all Muslim immigration to the Netherlands and pay Muslims who are currently resident in the Netherlands to leave!

    "Moderate Islam? That is a contradiction." - He obviously does not know many Muslims

    "Take a walk down the street and see where this is going. You no longer feel like you are living in your own country. There is a battle going on and we have to defend ourselves. Before you know it there will be more mosques than churches!" - You can see the violent anti muslim language in this quote! Referring to a largely peaceful Dutch Muslim population as an enemy the native Dutch population needs to defend itself against! In Battle!


    Quote
    Can you also answer how exactly hate-spouting Muslim radicals are not tolerated in the UK, whereas a plethora of examples contradict your statement?


    Sheikh Abu Hamza - currently in prison after being sentenced under the 2000 Terrorism Act - All of his charges were for things he had said.

    Despite being a non-violent organisation, the government considered banning Hizb ut Tahrir, but decided against banning it.

    Omar Bakri Mohammed - Left the UK in 2005 and is not allowed to return.

    Anjem Choudary - Seen as a raving idiot by everyone and not taken very seriously.

    The number of Muslim groups banned under the 2006 terrorism act.

    And so on....

    Could you give me just a few of the plethora of examples contradicting my statement?

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #28 - March 22, 2009, 07:51 PM

    Quote from: aliadiere
    "Moderate Islam? That is a contradiction." - He obviously does not know many Muslims

    And obviously you don't know many Muslims, or the political situation in the Islamic landscape very well.

    Turkey is being destroyed by "moderate Islam."

    Quote from: aliadiere
    I did not say that Mousawi must be allowed to preach whateveer he wants in the UK. What I said was that I had no problem with Mousawi coming over to do what he wanted to do because I have no problem with his purpose. TO GIVE A LECTURE ON POLITICAL ISLAM TO THE SCHOOL OF AFRICAN AND ORIENTAL STUDIES ( I had to put that in bold because you still seem to think he was coming over to give some anti semitic rantings to a group of radical muslims, even though I have repeated that point about five times).

    You aren't really so naive, are you?

    Do you think an anti-Semitic propagandist would come to the UK simply to discuss some technical issue? He is an Islamist himself, his very presence in this "lecture on political Islam at the school of African and Oriental Studies" would spoil the impartiality of any such attempt. How do you think the British-Jewish community would feel about, or react to, Moussawi's presence? Wouldn't that constitute "incitement of hatred between communities?"

    Your hypocrisy makes me sick.

    Quote from: aliadiere
    Could you give me just a few of the plethora of examples contradicting my statement?


    Just go to Ummah.com please, if you are really so blind.  Roll Eyes

    Just because a few notorious Islamists have been jailed, or banned from the UK, doesn't mean that the average conservative Muslims in the UK have become beacons of tolerance, moderation, and harmony.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Islamophobia & Infidelophobia
     Reply #29 - March 22, 2009, 08:12 PM

    Quote
    Quote from: aliadiere
    "Moderate Islam? That is a contradiction." - He obviously does not know many Muslims

    And obviously you don't know many Muslims, or the political situation in the Islamic landscape very well.

    Turkey is being destroyed by "moderate Islam."


    Actually I do know about the political situation in the Islamic Landscape and know that there is a problem. However, I do not think that you can tar all Muslim's with the same brush.

    Quote
    Quote from: aliadiere
    Could you give me just a few of the plethora of examples contradicting my statement?


    Just because a few notorious Islamists have been jailed, or banned from the UK, doesn't mean that the average conservative Muslims in the UK have become beacons of tolerance, moderation, and harmony.


    Actually I know hundreds of Muslims, including all of my family and loads of my friends. I would call them average British Muslims and I have yet to hear a single one of them saying that we should kill homosexuals. Kill idolators. Kill adulterers. Take over the UK under an Islamic banner. Force women to wear veils and so on.

    I actually went to a talk once at a "Wahhabi" mosque (which appeared as an extremist mosque on Dispatches' Undercover Mosque) on homosexuality. Obviously the talk was about how homosexuality is a grave sin and we should not do it. The speaker also touched on two important points. One was that this is not a Muslim country and therefore we cannot impose our views and put the law into our own hands by targeting homosexuals. The other point he made was about a "Gay-Muslim's  Mosque". He stated that although homosexuality is wrong, Muslims can still pray in the Gay-Muslim's Mosque and Muslims are not allowed to call somebody a disbeliever on the account of them being homosexual.

    This is just an example that I am giving for you from the UK (because you obviously do not have a clue about the Muslim community in the UK), to show that the extremists are few and far between and it is by no means the desire of the Muslim community to even disrupt the peace, let alone start a religious war!

    Quote
    Quote from: aliadiere
    I did not say that Mousawi must be allowed to preach whateveer he wants in the UK. What I said was that I had no problem with Mousawi coming over to do what he wanted to do because I have no problem with his purpose. TO GIVE A LECTURE ON POLITICAL ISLAM TO THE SCHOOL OF AFRICAN AND ORIENTAL STUDIES ( I had to put that in bold because you still seem to think he was coming over to give some anti semitic rantings to a group of radical muslims, even though I have repeated that point about five times).

    You aren't really so naive, are you?

    Do you think an anti-Semitic propagandist would come to the UK simply to discuss some technical issue? He is an Islamist himself, his very presence in this "lecture on political Islam at the school of African and Oriental Studies" would spoil the impartiality of any such attempt. How do you think the British-Jewish community would feel about, or react to, Moussawi's presence? Wouldn't that constitute "incitement of hatred between communities?"

    Your hypocrisy makes me sick.


    With all due respect, I think the School of African and Oriental Studies know which speakers to invite and which speakers would "spoil the impartiality of any such attempt" more than yourself.

    Secondly, if Geert Wilders was coming to give a lecture about Law at a University, I would not have a problem with that!


    Quote
    Just go to Ummah.com please, if you are really so blind.  Roll Eyes


    I have yet to see anything controversial on Ummah.com. I think the Muslims you get there are the sorts that do not really know much about Islam and think that Islam is a "peaceful, loving religion!
     

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
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