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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: Do you think Halal, Kosher & other types of animal sacrifices ought to be banned  (Voting closed: March 28, 2009, 07:29 PM)
  • Yes - 12 (54.5%)
  • No - 7 (31.8%)
  • Not sure - 0 (0%)
  • Don't care either way - 3 (13.6%)
  • Total Voters: 22

 Topic: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat

 (Read 12946 times)
  • Previous page 1 23 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #30 - March 24, 2009, 03:03 PM
     
    Quote
    An animal loses conciousness after about a minute and a half of having its throat cut and, I know this sounds like a rather brutal statement, but I would rather an animal be in pain for a minute and a half than alienate 2 million Muslims and Jews in the UK.


    The Muslims can eat stunned meat, so it is really just the jews. Most jews are not that strict with their kosherness. Most don't eat pork but only a small minority insist on being strictly kosher.

    So I think the 2 million number is off the mark,

    BSmileyB

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #31 - March 24, 2009, 03:35 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on March 24, 2009, 02:54 PM
    Do people really care about the welfare of animals or is it another way of trying to demonise Muslims?

    Of course we care about the welfare of animals, dont you?  As much as is reasonably practical anyway e.g.  I pay more for free range, and I hope we all do.   Still not vegetarian yet  Cry  , but have complete admiration for those that are.

    Do you agree with nonsensical torture of animals, if it can be shown that there are nicer ways? 

    Once religion is taken out of the equation, you will notice that you will begin to see the world in an entirely different light.  Reading between the lines and your knee-jerk consipiracy theories, it appears that you still have remnants and war scars remaining. 

    It will take time, Rome was not built in a day. 

    How long have you been an ex-muslim for?
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  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #32 - March 24, 2009, 03:40 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on March 24, 2009, 02:54 PM
    I would rather an animal be in pain for a minute and a half than alienate 2 million Muslims and Jews in the UK.


    Would you also rather amputations be legalised than alieniate 2 million Muslims? How about stonings? How about banning homosexuality I'm sure that alienates many.

    We wouldn't want to alienate 2 million Muslims and Jews with bronze age superstitions in our attempt to create a civilised humane society now would we?
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #33 - March 24, 2009, 03:42 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on March 24, 2009, 02:54 PM
    I have been hearing this debate since the days when I identified myself as being a Muslim and I was skeptical about it then and I am skeptical about it now? Do people really care about the welfare of animals or is it another way of trying to demonise Muslims?


    aliediere, unless Zaephon came & told us that Halal should be banned but kosher shouldn't- I don't think you can doubt our sincere intentions.  Cheesy

    I personally am opposed to fur, animal testing for cosmetics, whaling & all other similar cruelty, I agree in early 20th century Europe it was a practice intended to discriminate against Jews but those times cared little for human rights & less still for animal rights-today we do care & we want certain rights extended to lower species...

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #34 - March 24, 2009, 03:49 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on March 24, 2009, 03:42 PM

    aliediere, unless Zaephon came & told us that Halal should be banned but kosher shouldn't- I don't think you can doubt our sincere intentions.  Cheesy

    I personally am opposed to fur, animal testing for cosmetics, whaling & all other similar cruelty, I agree in early 20th century Europe it was a practice intended to discriminate against Jews but those times cared little for human rights & less still for animal rights-today we do care & we want certain rights extended to lower species...


    Lower species?  What make them lower, of lesser worth than us?  I think words like that dont help their cause  Wink

    I prefer the word "animals", but I am probably just being pedantic.  Anyhow I agree with you post  Afro
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  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #35 - March 24, 2009, 03:50 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 24, 2009, 03:35 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on March 24, 2009, 02:54 PM
    Do people really care about the welfare of animals or is it another way of trying to demonise Muslims?

    Of course we care about the welfare of animals, dont you?  As much as is reasonably practical anyway e.g.  I pay more for free range, and I hope we all do.   Still not vegetarian yet  Cry  , but have complete admiration for those that are.


    In all my years of reading about animal welfare or discussing with activists I've never come across one iota of evidence that any of it was in anyway out to demonise Islam or any religion.

    The welfare of animals has always been the sole purpose of seeking their rights.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #36 - March 24, 2009, 03:57 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 24, 2009, 03:49 PM
    Lower species?  What make them lower, of lesser worth than us?  I think words like that dont help their cause  Wink


    Allright I too realise that lower species was a wrong choice of words, I'll call them other species  :d'oh:

    At the rate science seems to be progressing, we might make them as intelligence as humans in the next 100 years, & they might want affirmative action then for millennia of discrimination by wicked humans... dance

    www.rythospital.com/clyven/
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #37 - March 24, 2009, 03:58 PM
    Quote
    !Also, in response to your last comment, who said anything about me seeing humans being killed? If your talking about all these beheading videos I watched back in the day, those were distorted videos and not real life situations. I haven't seen anyone die in real life so I don't understand your question.


    I was just taking the piss, I weren't being serious.

    Quote from: FinallyFree on March 24, 2009, 03:00 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on March 24, 2009, 02:54 PM
    I have been hearing this debate since the days when I identified myself as being a Muslim and I was skeptical about it then and I am skeptical about it now? Do people really care about the welfare of animals or is it another way of trying to demonise Muslims? When European countries banned ritual slaughter in the early parts of the 20th century, it was not done out of any concern for the animal but to discriminate against Jews!

    OK. An animal is technically halal if it has been stunned but what about kosher? Jews do not consider a stunned animal to be kosher, so making unstunned meat illegal would still be forcing Jews not to eat meat.

    An animal loses conciousness after about a minute and a half of having its throat cut and, I know this sounds like a rather brutal statement, but I would rather an animal be in pain for a minute and a half than alienate 2 million Muslims and Jews in the UK.


    I can see why you'd be skeptical but that doesn't mean anyone who advocates such a position is doing so for the purpose of anti-Muslim hate.

    Even as a Muslim I avoided halal meat from 2005 (when I first saw a lamb being slaughtered in the Islamic way)- I had been to slaughterhouses, but this was a horrific sight, and it was done in the Islamic way. That's why I oppose it, I do care about animal rights, not exactly to the standard of PETA but issues like this do bother me.

    I'm sure others feel the same way.


    I know it doesn't mean that anyone who advocates banning halal is doing it to demonise Muslims, but I would say there is a sizable figure who advocate banning halal for that purpose. I mean, do you really think the British National Party give a shit about animal welfare?!

    The FAWC says that it takes a cow up to two minutes to die, and although Muslims and Jews agree with this, they say that the major blood vessels are cut causing loss of blood to the brain resulting in unconciousness.1 I am not a scientist and I don't know which is right, but what I think is who cares?!

    Even if it takes 2 minutes for the cow to die and it is fully concious of its pain in that time, I don't think that is unneccesarily prolonged suffering. That is not a long time and the animal is being killed for a purpose. That is less time than it takes for a human to die by lethal injection, electric chair or in a gas chamber!

    I just think this is such a non-issue that has been going on for centuries (at least since the Spanish Inquisition) designed to discriminate against minorities.


    1. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2977086.stm
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #38 - March 24, 2009, 03:59 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 24, 2009, 03:49 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on March 24, 2009, 03:42 PM

    aliediere, unless Zaephon came & told us that Halal should be banned but kosher shouldn't- I don't think you can doubt our sincere intentions.  Cheesy

    I personally am opposed to fur, animal testing for cosmetics, whaling & all other similar cruelty, I agree in early 20th century Europe it was a practice intended to discriminate against Jews but those times cared little for human rights & less still for animal rights-today we do care & we want certain rights extended to lower species...


    Lower species?  What make them lower, of lesser worth than us?  I think words like that dont help their cause  Wink

    I prefer the word "animals", but I am probably just being pedantic.  Anyhow I agree with you post  Afro


    Well technically they are lower species, because they are less developed intellectually. But some can be more developed in other ways.

    The point is being less developed puts the onus on us, more developed to look after those vulnerable. Not to take advantage of them or put them through pain because of some belief for which there is no proof.

    We are also animals, so we should take care for those that are weaker than us as opposed to take advantage of them, be it for religious or material reasons.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #39 - March 24, 2009, 04:09 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on March 24, 2009, 03:40 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on March 24, 2009, 02:54 PM
    I would rather an animal be in pain for a minute and a half than alienate 2 million Muslims and Jews in the UK.


    Would you also rather amputations be legalised than alieniate 2 million Muslims? How about stonings? How about banning homosexuality I'm sure that alienates many.

    We wouldn't want to alienate 2 million Muslims and Jews with bronze age superstitions in our attempt to create a civilised humane society now would we?


    I don't think that because I think that amputations, stoning and homosexuality are real issues. I just do not think that this is an issue at all. Killing an animal is not nice, end of story. Unless you were advocating banning meat altogether, I do not think you could advocate banning halal and kosher.

    Quote from: Rashna on March 24, 2009, 03:42 PM

    aliediere, unless Zaephon came & told us that Halal should be banned but kosher shouldn't- I don't think you can doubt our sincere intentions.  Cheesy



    I'm not doubting your sincere intentions. I am just saying that that is the intention of a lot of people/groups such as the British National Party.

    Here is a question to ponder. When a lion is killing an impala, does it really give a shit how much it is suffering?
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #40 - March 24, 2009, 04:16 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on March 24, 2009, 03:59 PM
    Well technically they are lower species, because they are less developed intellectually. But some can be more developed in other ways.


    Are you saying you measure net worth by intelligence?  Just because their are not as clever as us, it does not make us any better does it?  Is killing a pygmy marmusett worse than killing an elephant?

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  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #41 - March 24, 2009, 04:18 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on March 24, 2009, 03:58 PM
    Even if it takes 2 minutes for the cow to die and it is fully concious of its pain in that time, I don't think that is unneccesarily prolonged suffering. That is not a long time and the animal is being killed for a purpose.


    So let's take a hypothetical example.

    Suppose beings superior to us came from another planet. They enjoyed eating humans. But they insist that our blood must be drained. So their method is to slit our throats and wait for us to bleed to death. Would you agree with it and say its OK?

    Accoding to your logic, they are a higher species and have the rights to cause pain to us lower species in order to fulfil their ceremonious slaughter to their God and get their food.

    How do you know how much pain is suffered by an animal in the 2 minutes it takes for it to die? How do you measure pain in a dying creature?  We could never know.

    So apologists saying well they feel no pain after their throat is cut, ask them if they would like for their throat or that of their family to be cut because they won't feel any pain and see if they would agree to having it done.

    Quote
    That is less time than it takes for a human to die by lethal injection, electric chair or in a gas chamber!


    Maybe you should suggest slitting of throats as a replacement to injections to the US government if you think it is more humane!


    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #42 - March 24, 2009, 04:21 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on March 24, 2009, 03:58 PM
    Even if it takes 2 minutes for the cow to die and it is fully concious of its pain in that time, I don't think that is unneccesarily prolonged suffering.

    Its still worse than instantaneous death?  Why would you want to give all these cows 2 minutes of torture prior to their death, for what appears to us to be a pointless & needless ritual?  
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  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #43 - March 24, 2009, 04:26 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 24, 2009, 04:16 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on March 24, 2009, 03:59 PM
    Well technically they are lower species, because they are less developed intellectually. But some can be more developed in other ways.


    Are you saying you measure net worth by intelligence?  Just because their are not as clever as us, it does not make us any better does it?  Is killing a pygmy marmusett worse than killing an elephant?


    I'm not advocating killing on a basis of intelligence or highness or lowness of a species.

    On the contrary I'm saying we should be protecting lower species because they depend on us. Just like we protect children or the disabled, because they depend on us.

    Animals can obviously be ranked, from the amoeba right up to humans. Humans because of intelligence have been able to dominate and control to a great extent our world. It does give us an advantage.

    However we can be susceptible to the minutest of beings, such as the AIDS virus and malaria.

    But in many areas humans can claim superiority over other animals. But we have to use that benefit with compassion.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #44 - March 24, 2009, 04:29 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on March 24, 2009, 04:18 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on March 24, 2009, 03:58 PM
    Even if it takes 2 minutes for the cow to die and it is fully concious of its pain in that time, I don't think that is unneccesarily prolonged suffering. That is not a long time and the animal is being killed for a purpose.


    So let's take a hypothetical example.

    Suppose beings superior to us came from another planet. They enjoyed eating humans. But they insist that our blood must be drained. So their method is to slit our throats and wait for us to bleed to death. Would you agree with it and say its OK?

    Accoding to your logic, they are a higher species and have the rights to cause pain to us lower species in order to fulfil their ceremonious slaughter to their God and get their food.

    How do you know how much pain is suffered by an animal in the 2 minutes it takes for it to die? How do you measure pain in a dying creature?  We could never know.

    So apologists saying well they feel no pain after their throat is cut, ask them if they would like for their throat or that of their family to be cut because they won't feel any pain and see if they would agree to having it done.



    This debate would be perfectly valid if it was considered abhorrent and wrong to kill animals for meat but it isn't. Whichever way you kill an animal, it is not going to be nice. Even when an animal is stunned, it is distressing for an animal. The animal doesn't say "don't worry about me. just stick your knife right there. I don't mind because I've been stunned."

    If there was a higher species who fed on humans, I doubt they would give a shit about our suffering.

    The issue I have with this debate, however, is that it started off in history as a racist debate and although there are people in this debate who care about animal welfare, that racist element still exists and it is not a small element.

    In Korea, dogs are killed by being beaten to death and live octopus is a delicacy (where a living octopus is brought to table and has its tentacles chopped off at the table!). In Florida, crabs claws are a delicacy, and they don't even kill the crabs! The claws are chopped off and the crabs chucked back into the water.
    In the grand scheme of things, halal and kosher is not really that bad.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #45 - March 24, 2009, 04:31 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 24, 2009, 04:21 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on March 24, 2009, 03:58 PM
    Even if it takes 2 minutes for the cow to die and it is fully concious of its pain in that time, I don't think that is unneccesarily prolonged suffering.

    Its still worse than instantaneous death?  Why would you want to give all these cows 2 minutes of torture prior to their death, for what appears to us to be a pointless & needless ritual?  


    There is no method of slaughter which I know of that results in instantaneous death.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #46 - March 24, 2009, 04:33 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on March 24, 2009, 04:09 PM
    I'm not doubting your sincere intentions. I am just saying that that is the intention of a lot of people/groups such as the British National Party.

    Here is a question to ponder. When a lion is killing an impala, does it really give a shit how much it is suffering?


    Well, then we get down to the fundamental differences between human beings & animals. Lions kill impalas simply for food, its part & parcel of the food chain-nothing more & nothing less. There are no documented examples of lions(or any other animals) sacrificing impalas in a novel process which prolongs their abject sufferings to please some Lion God, all the while reciting prayers. worship

    Humans have fashioned the notion of god\s to which we feel a need to pray, animals don't. They don't choose to please the god in this fashion, & we have no right to impose our superstitions on creatures unable to comprehend a belief in the Divine, by killing them with methods which prolong their suffering. Lionesses don't use cosmetics either & don't test their cosmetics on impalas or hares, human women do & they similarly have no right to do this. JMO.
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #47 - March 24, 2009, 04:40 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on March 24, 2009, 04:33 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on March 24, 2009, 04:09 PM
    I'm not doubting your sincere intentions. I am just saying that that is the intention of a lot of people/groups such as the British National Party.

    Here is a question to ponder. When a lion is killing an impala, does it really give a shit how much it is suffering?


    Well, then we get down to the fundamental differences between human beings & animals. Lions kill impalas simply for food, its part & parcel of the food chain-nothing more & nothing less. There are no documented examples of lions(or any other animals) sacrificing impalas in a novel process which prolongs their abject sufferings to please some Lion God, all the while reciting prayers. worship

    Humans have fashioned the notion of god\s to which we feel a need to pray, animals don't. They don't choose to please the god in this fashion, & we have no right to impose our superstitions on creatures unable to comprehend a belief in the Divine, by killing them with methods which prolong their suffering. Lionesses don't use cosmetics either & don't test their cosmetics on impalas or hares, human women do & they similarly have no right to do this. JMO.


    Halal and Kosher meat is not based on superstitions (except for the prayer bit obviously!) The purpose of halal and kosher is to have good quality meat.

    I never said anything about animal testing. In fact, I am opposed to testing on animals for cosmetics, though I am not opposed to testing on animals for medical research.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #48 - March 24, 2009, 04:42 PM
    Quote
    This debate would be perfectly valid if it was considered abhorrent and wrong to kill animals for meat but it isn't. Whichever way you kill an animal, it is not going to be nice. Even when an animal is stunned, it is distressing for an animal. The animal doesn't say "don't worry about me. just stick your knife right there. I don't mind because I've been stunned."


    It is still a perfectly valid debate because there are degrees of cruelty.  If an animal can be stunned before slaughter so it doesn't feel any pain, then there's no reason I can see why that shouldn't be done.  Yes, it will still be distressing for the animal, but less so than being slaughtered without being stunned.

    Quote
    If there was a higher species who fed on humans, I doubt they would give a shit about our suffering.


    Then they wouldn't deserve to be called a higher species.

    Quote
    The issue I have with this debate, however, is that it started off in history as a racist debate and although there are people in this debate who care about animal welfare, that racist element still exists and it is not a small element.


    That issue is based on a logical fallacy.  Mussolini famously made the trains run on time, Hitler reduced the unemployment rate in Germany.  Should we now be suspicious of anyone who wants to improve the rail service or create employment, because they share some policies with fascists and Nazis?

    Quote
    In Korea, dogs are killed by being beaten to death and live octopus is a delicacy (where a living octopus is brought to table and has its tentacles chopped off at the table!). In Florida, crabs claws are a delicacy, and they don't even kill the crabs! The claws are chopped off and the crabs chucked back into the water.
    In the grand scheme of things, halal and kosher is not really that bad.


    There are far worse and more widespread abuses, I pointed that out in my first post in this thread.  However, that shouldn't stop halal and kosher slaughterhouses from updating their practises when technology arrives which can lessen the suffering for the animal. 

    Islam apparently doesn't even have a problem with stunning the animal before slaughter!  So what is the problem exactly?  Most Jews are secular anyway, so in effect animals are being put through unnecessary suffering to appease the sensibilities of a handful of ultra Orthodox Jews who should just be reminded what century they are living in.



    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #49 - March 24, 2009, 04:48 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on March 24, 2009, 04:40 PM
    Halal and Kosher meat is not based on superstitions (except for the prayer bit obviously!) The purpose of halal and kosher is to have good quality meat.


    Is there many reliable, documented studies that the meat is really of a better quality?And the quality suffers if the animal is stunned?
    If there was strong evidence to this effect, it'd probably have been adopted by much of the world? Otherwise, IMO its just superstition.
    Neither Jews nor Muslims top world life expectancy, the Japanese & Macau people do, many Muslims in fact have poorer life expectancies, although this is simply due to life in Third World nations. Rich Gulf states have pretty decent life expectancies. Muslims haven't a global reputation of being brilliant, Ashkenazi Jews do, but Shephardic Jews or Ethiopian Jews don't & all these Jews have kosher meat.I hope I'm not coming across as an Anti Semite-Anti Muslim rolled into one, I just mean that unless Halal\kosher is contributing significantly in someway like medical research obviously is, I think I can call them superstitions. All superstitions need not be of a theological nature... there can be superstitions relating to fortune telling, health etc as well.
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #50 - March 24, 2009, 05:02 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on March 23, 2009, 07:36 PM
    They probly should, along with battery chicken farms, and many other factory farm practises that are about making profit at the expense of animal welfare.  Then there's the ongoing practise of using animals in experiments which have nothing to do saving human life, (testing make up and the like), the fur trade, the whaling industry, the endangerment of various species through destroying their habitats, and the practise of using wild animals for entertainment in travelling circuses.

    Its a big area, I don't think you can logically start with halal and kosher given that there are far more widespread abuses going on.  I still vote yes though, in theory I think it should be banned, in practise its way down the list of priorities for protecting animals from cruelty.


    I somewhat agree with this, at least on the factory farming bit being a much bigger problem than ritual slaughter. However, I also think factory farming is as bad for humans as it is for the lesser species we are consuming. I also think that animal testing for strictly commercial purposes is wrong-- medical testing okay, but for shit like cosmetics, come on. Also agree that circuses and zoos are bullshit (except for certain endangered species).

    But although I might support reform of factory farming/slaughterhouse practices, I would never support a ban on koshering in the US, not simply because it fucks with people's religious practices, but because I do not consider the practice as cruel as people think it is. Sure it looks bad to watch, but the animal loses consciousness quite quickly. Of course, I'm not against killing animals for hides either. Nor am I against whaling, provided it is well-regulated and does not lead to extinction. I hunt and I have no problem with my biological status as an apex predator.
    fuck you
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #51 - March 24, 2009, 05:04 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on March 24, 2009, 02:54 PM
    I have been hearing this debate since the days when I identified myself as being a Muslim and I was skeptical about it then and I am skeptical about it now? Do people really care about the welfare of animals or is it another way of trying to demonise Muslims? When European countries banned ritual slaughter in the early parts of the 20th century, it was not done out of any concern for the animal but to discriminate against Jews!

    OK. An animal is technically halal if it has been stunned but what about kosher? Jews do not consider a stunned animal to be kosher, so making unstunned meat illegal would still be forcing Jews not to eat meat.

    An animal loses conciousness after about a minute and a half of having its throat cut and, I know this sounds like a rather brutal statement, but I would rather an animal be in pain for a minute and a half than alienate 2 million Muslims and Jews in the UK.


    Well put, sir.
    fuck you
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #52 - March 24, 2009, 05:04 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on March 24, 2009, 04:29 PM
    If there was a higher species who fed on humans, I doubt they would give a shit about our suffering.


    Just like you don't give a shit about animals suffering to meet some superstitious belief.

    But what if among those superior aliens there were some that saw the suffering plight of humans and advocated at first for their living conditions to be improved, so they would not be kept 10 to a cage living in their own faeces or forced to reproduce by selecting stud males to impregnate (rape) females over and over again.

    What if some went further and advocated humane death as oppsed to slitting of throats and bleeding to death?

    And what if some went still further and rallied for the rights of humans. So they would not be killed for food but could live their lives as nature intended?

    Which alien would you see as the most moral and compassionate? The one who did not give a shit about a lower species or the one who tried to alleviate the plight of you and your family? Which position would you want to be in?
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #53 - March 24, 2009, 05:12 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on March 24, 2009, 04:40 PM
    Halal and Kosher meat is not based on superstitions (except for the prayer bit obviously!) The purpose of halal and kosher is to have good quality meat.


    It is very much based on superstitions. The superstition that some god of some desert tribe over 2,000 years ago said man should not eat blood.

    So they devise a way to drain out as much blood as possible from the animal as they could. And the only way they knew to do this was to keep the animal alive with heart pumping to allow as much blood to drain out as possible.

    But its so ridiculous anyway because you could never get all the blood out of meat. So claiming they are following God's orders, they are really only fooling themselves.

    There is no evidence that Halal meat is any healthier than meat from a stunned animal.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #54 - March 24, 2009, 05:18 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on March 24, 2009, 04:48 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on March 24, 2009, 04:40 PM
    Halal and Kosher meat is not based on superstitions (except for the prayer bit obviously!) The purpose of halal and kosher is to have good quality meat.


    Is there many reliable, documented studies that the meat is really of a better quality?


    Don't know of any studies, but I can see four things off the top of my head that would lead to better quality meat (for kosher at least):

    1. Diet of the animal is more strictly regulated (no worries about Mad Cow Disease with Kosher beef)
    2. Artificial hormones are much less likely to be used
    3. Animals are to be treated humanely before slaughter, thus mitigating some of the worse factory farming practices
    4. Reduces likelihood of contamination from blood-borne pathogens.
    Quote
    And the quality suffers if the animal is stunned?


    I think it's more humane if they are stunned first, but as I noted above I don't think it's entirely inhumane if they aren't. The problem here, as others have noted, is that Jewish dietary law prohibits it, and, to put it in US-centric terms (after all, I am an ignorant, arrogant American), if it's a choice between animal welfare and the free exercise of religion under the First Amendment, I'm likely to err on the First Amendment's side, unless the treatment of animals is unnecessarily cruel, which I don't think koshering is (in fact, I'd say there's much more cruelty in secular factory farming methods).


    Quote
    Muslims haven't a global reputation of being brilliant, Ashkenazi Jews do, but Shephardic Jews or Ethiopian Jews don't & all these Jews have kosher meat.


    Could have something to do with economic status, no? Muslims, by and large, along with Sephardic and Ethopian Jews, tend to be much poorer as a group than Ashkenazi.
    fuck you
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #55 - March 24, 2009, 05:21 PM
    If anyone feels bad about throwing lobsters in a boiling pot of water, some guy invented a lobster stunner. Too bad it costs $4,000 .

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4097798.stm

    B AfroB
    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #56 - March 24, 2009, 05:21 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on March 24, 2009, 04:42 PM
    Quote
    The issue I have with this debate, however, is that it started off in history as a racist debate and although there are people in this debate who care about animal welfare, that racist element still exists and it is not a small element.


    That issue is based on a logical fallacy.  Mussolini famously made the trains run on time, Hitler reduced the unemployment rate in Germany.  Should we now be suspicious of anyone who wants to improve the rail service or create employment, because they share some policies with fascists and Nazis?


    This non-issue is still being used by the right wing as a way to attack muslims and jews. For example, the British National party currently have an online poll on whether we should ban halal slaughter. I doubt very much that this would be much of an issue if the racist element was taken out of it.


    Quote from: Rashna on March 24, 2009, 04:48 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on March 24, 2009, 04:40 PM
    Halal and Kosher meat is not based on superstitions (except for the prayer bit obviously!) The purpose of halal and kosher is to have good quality meat.


    Is there many reliable, documented studies that the meat is really of a better quality?And the quality suffers if the animal is stunned?
    If there was strong evidence to this effect, it'd probably have been adopted by much of the world? Otherwise, IMO its just superstition.
    Neither Jews nor Muslims top world life expectancy, the Japanese & Macau people do, many Muslims in fact have poorer life expectancies, although this is simply due to life in Third World nations. Rich Gulf states have pretty decent life expectancies. Muslims haven't a global reputation of being brilliant, Ashkenazi Jews do, but Shephardic Jews or Ethiopian Jews don't & all these Jews have kosher meat.I hope I'm not coming across as an Anti Semite-Anti Muslim rolled into one, I just mean that unless Halal\kosher is contributing significantly in someway like medical research obviously is, I think I can call them superstitions. All superstitions need not be of a theological nature... there can be superstitions relating to fortune telling, health etc as well.




    Nobody claims that eating halal or kosher meat prolongs life expectancy! It just produces good fresh meat! The slaughterhouse process requires an animal to be bled like in halal or kosher because it reduces the risk of the meat going bad.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #57 - March 24, 2009, 05:26 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on March 24, 2009, 05:12 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on March 24, 2009, 04:40 PM
    Halal and Kosher meat is not based on superstitions (except for the prayer bit obviously!) The purpose of halal and kosher is to have good quality meat.


    It is very much based on superstitions. The superstition that some god of some desert tribe over 2,000 years ago said man should not eat blood.

    So they devise a way to drain out as much blood as possible from the animal as they could. And the only way they knew to do this was to keep the animal alive with heart pumping to allow as much blood to drain out as possible.

    But its so ridiculous anyway because you could never get all the blood out of meat. So claiming they are following God's orders, they are really only fooling themselves.

    There is no evidence that Halal meat is any healthier than meat from a stunned animal.



    That's not the only reason. Kosher law (and I think halal, correct me if I'm wrong) says the animal must be treated humanely, and in the days before bolt guns, slitting an animal's throat while upside down was a very humane method. I know people are emotionally moved by watching videos of this stuff, but the animal loses consciousness very quickly, most of the writhing around is pure reflex. Ever seen a chicken after it's been decapitated? The body keeps moving around for a bit-- pure reflex, which is why many farmers prefer to wring a chicken's neck than chop it off.
    fuck you
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #58 - March 24, 2009, 05:27 PM
    Quote
    This non-issue is still being used by the right wing as a way to attack muslims and jews. For example, the British National party currently have an online poll on whether we should ban halal slaughter. I doubt very much that this would be much of an issue if the racist element was taken out of it.


    It is not a non-issue at all.  Whatever your stance on it, animal welfare is very much an issue, which is probly why the BNP are jumping on the bandwagon with their own racist spin on it. 

    If you took the tiny, insignificant, racist element out of it, the issue would be almost as widely debated as it already is.  To pretend otherwise is simply slandering the rest of us with guilt by association.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Halal, Kosher & other Sacrificial Meat
     Reply #59 - March 24, 2009, 05:38 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on March 24, 2009, 05:27 PM
    Quote
    This non-issue is still being used by the right wing as a way to attack muslims and jews. For example, the British National party currently have an online poll on whether we should ban halal slaughter. I doubt very much that this would be much of an issue if the racist element was taken out of it.


    It is not a non-issue at all.  Whatever your stance on it, animal welfare is very much an issue, which is probly why the BNP are jumping on the bandwagon with their own racist spin on it. 

    If you took the tiny, insignificant, racist element out of it, the issue would be almost as widely debated as it already is.  To pretend otherwise is simply slandering the rest of us with guilt by association.


     I do think it is a non-issue because I think that killing animals in a halal or kosher manner is not that different to the conventional method of killing an animal. Even in the conventional method of slaughter, the animal has be kept alive and bled. At the end of the day, the animal is killed in a similar way to how it would be killed in a conventional abbatoir resulting in the same end - meat.

    I think you are very wrong in calling the racist element tiny and insignificant because I believe that the racist element is what has made it such a big issue today.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
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