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 Topic: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only

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  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #150 - March 30, 2009, 05:37 PM
    Actually, skynightblaze sent him here; we didn't. Smiley

    Have a good night's sleep.
    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #151 - March 30, 2009, 05:48 PM
    Quote from: skynightblaze on March 30, 2009, 05:30 PM
    Quote from: BMZ on March 30, 2009, 05:26 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 30, 2009, 03:32 PM
    It should not really be an issue, as there are other arabic speakers on this forum if translations are doctored to win arguments? 

    I am sure BMZ will agree with the majority of the translations shown, as a Muslim he would be doing a discourtesy to Gods word, and it would be easy to know, prove & win the argument if he was being unscrupulous e.g. if his translation was notably different from 15 other translations, it could be researched by the arabic speakers here (which he has already conceded).

    As an Arabic speaker, why would he accept another translation, when the religion made sense to him in Arabic?  As English speakers would we accept a retranslation of the bible into modern English, or would we read the original source ourselves?


    Exactly, Islame

    I appreciate the point.

    If I translate wrongly, there are speakers of Arabic here, who will point out straight away that I am wrong. Hasan is here and I am sure there are some others.

    English has been evolving. Maulana Muhammad Ali was the first non-Arab (Sub-Continental) to do the translation in the early part of the 20th Century. Yusuf Ali did in 1934. Some did in the fifties.

    Many translators have translated a small verse into "Yusuf! Turn away from this!" Turn away from what? What it simply means is "Yusuf! Forget this!"?

    For example, if two friends had a problem when one accused another falsely. Then a third common friend can say,"Come on, forget this!" or even "Let bygones be bygones!"

    Now, the poster cannot force me to accept that "Yusuf! Turn away from this!" is the correct translation and lead everyone to believe that Qur'aan told Yusuf to turn back into a Kafir.   Smiley

    In the coming future, there will be some who would do even better translations than all.

    Thank you and Good Night from Singapore.

    BMZ




    If you resort to arabic then I should be allowed to consult arabic speakers and you should accept what the arabic speakers of this forum say. IF thats an agreement I am ready to debate you . One more condition is you are not going to decide the topic of debate. ITs me who would accuse your quran and you have to defend it. I have already given you the link so you should be prepared by now. Tell me if  you agree with these conditions. If yes then lets go ahead and inform BerberElla.


    You will be allowed to consult speakers of Arabic. I have no problem with that.

    I am not interested in reading FFI junk, stuff and links. You are supposed to attack Qur'aan and I am supposed to defend it.
    I have already chucked off FFI cesspool.  Cheesy

    Start with verses of Qur'aan which you wish to challenge. Write down your own thoughts but please do not copy and paste FFI junk and stuff or anything from Khalil Fariel, Kamran Mirza, Ibn Warraq, Ali Sina, Abul Kasem and others. Their job is to distort, twist, turn, misreport and misinform the readers. And these men never understood Qur'aan anyway. If they had, they would have been Muslims.  Cheesy

    You can get all the feedback from them. I don't mind but quote the verses (not in pages) in small bites, point out the 'flaws, errors and mistakes, etc", challenge and put it in your own language. And let us go at a relaxed pace.

    It is too late.
    Good Night
    BMZ  

  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #152 - March 30, 2009, 05:51 PM
    Quote from: charlesmartel on March 30, 2009, 05:37 PM
    Actually, skynightblaze sent him here; we didn't. Smiley

    Have a good night's sleep.


    Yes, I know. He has gone hyper but will calm down. Thanks

    Good night
    BMZ
  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #153 - March 30, 2009, 05:58 PM
     @BERBERELLA

     Now that he has agreed with the terms I would like to start my presentation . I will open a new thread tomorrow as its late here today.I can see the option of new topic in the thread one on one matches. So I guess the set up of the debate has been made. Correct me if I am wrong on this.
  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #154 - March 30, 2009, 06:02 PM
    Hello Charlesmartel,

    Welcome to the forums. Would you care to explain a little more about yourself in a separate introduction thread?
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #155 - March 31, 2009, 09:36 AM
    @ALL

    Why cant I reply in the comments thread of my debate with BMZ. I want to reply to Aziz.


    @Aziz

    Tafsirs are not allowed in the debate since he asked me to come with quran only. Btw . If he comes up with that argument I will respond to him appropriately.
  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #156 - March 31, 2009, 09:58 AM
    I don't know why you can't post there. It's okay if your opponent doesn't accept tafsir, but I still think looking at what the mufassiroon wrote is very important when it comes to finding out how the early scholars understood certain verses, because nowadays some verses are translated with the intent to make them fit with current knowledge.
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  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #157 - March 31, 2009, 10:12 AM
    Quote from: Aziz on March 31, 2009, 09:58 AM
    I don't know why you can't post there. It's okay if your opponent doesn't accept tafsir, but I still think looking at what the mufassiroon wrote is very important when it comes to finding out how the early scholars understood certain verses, because nowadays some verses are translated with the intent to make them fit with current knowledge.



    Quote from: Ibn kathir
    Allah tells us how He will pass judgement on the people of Paradise and Hell, and put each of them in the place fitting for him and for which he is suited; this is justice from Him and He is never unjust.
    Then He tells us of His angels who surround His majestic Throne, glorifying the praises of their Lord, extolling and magnifying Him, and declaring Him to be above any shortcomings or injustice whatsoever, for He has passed judgement in the fairest and most just manner.


    Kathir doesnt deny the throne to be literal. Where does the above say that throne is not the literal throne?Even if it said throne wasnt literal I can quote quran to prove that the throne is literal . Quran gets more priority than the tafsir So we need to reject tafsir in the light of quranic verses that indicate throne is a literal throne.
  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #158 - March 31, 2009, 10:14 AM
    Quote from: skynightblaze on March 31, 2009, 09:36 AM
    @ALL

    Why cant I reply in the comments thread of my debate with BMZ. I want to reply to Aziz.


    @Aziz

    Tafsirs are not allowed in the debate since he asked me to come with quran only. Btw . If he comes up with that argument I will respond to him appropriately.


    You and I cannot comment in the thread because we have been assigned a place. It is for others to comment on our posts.

    However, you can always write in this topic and yours truly will do the same. Tafsirs are not allowed because, again, there is no such thing as an Authentic & Approved Tafsir.

    In the not-too-distant future, I will be writing a Tafsir, which will be called Tafsir-e-Baig.  Smiley

    BMZ
  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #159 - March 31, 2009, 10:41 AM
    @skynight, it would be better for you to only focus on your debate with BMZ, the comment thread is so that we don't interfere with the debate.

    Don't worry about the comments, you can tackle them after.  Smiley
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #160 - March 31, 2009, 03:07 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on March 31, 2009, 10:41 AM
    @skynight, it would be better for you to only focus on your debate with BMZ, the comment thread is so that we don't interfere with the debate.

    Don't worry about the comments, you can tackle them after.  Smiley


    I have already responded to SNB's first post, BE. Thanks for the good work.

    Baig M Z
  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #161 - March 31, 2009, 05:23 PM
    Quote from: Zaephon on March 30, 2009, 06:02 PM
    Hello Charlesmartel,

    Welcome to the forums. Would you care to explain a little more about yourself in a separate introduction thread?


    Hello Zaephon,

    Thanks for the welcome. The interest in the debate between BMZ and skynightblaze has drawn me here even though I registered some time back.

    I do not have much to tell about myself. I was initially active in Answering Faithfreedom's forum. When it closed, I went to FFI and have stayed with it. I do not have much time to attend more than one forum at a time even though I would like to spend more time on these forums.

    This forum has a different flavor than FFI. I am still exploring it.
    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #162 - March 31, 2009, 05:27 PM
    Quote from: charlesmartel on March 31, 2009, 05:23 PM
    Quote from: Zaephon on March 30, 2009, 06:02 PM
    Hello Charlesmartel,

    Welcome to the forums. Would you care to explain a little more about yourself in a separate introduction thread?


    Hello Zaephon,

    Thanks for the welcome. The interest in the debate between BMZ and skynightblaze has drawn me here even though I registered some time back.

    I do not have much to tell about myself. I was initially active in Answering Faithfreedom's forum. When it closed, I went to FFI and have stayed with it. I do not have much time to attend more than one forum at a time even though I would like to spend more time on these forums.

    This forum has a different flavor than FFI. I am still exploring it.


    So whats your view so far on the differences?
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  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #163 - March 31, 2009, 05:35 PM
    Quote from: IsLame

    So whats your view so far on the differences?


    Hi Islame, Hope you are doing fine.

    It is still too early for me to be able to express the differences I feel; it is something in the ambiance. I have not yet been able to put my finger on it.

    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #164 - April 01, 2009, 01:33 AM
    Quote from: Aziz on March 31, 2009, 09:58 AM
    I don't know why you can't post there. It's okay if your opponent doesn't accept tafsir, but I still think looking at what the mufassiroon wrote is very important when it comes to finding out how the early scholars understood certain verses, because nowadays some verses are translated with the intent to make them fit with current knowledge.


    I have allowed SNB to attack Qur'aan and my job is to defend it. I can easily defend it without the help of various Translations, Tafsirs, Ahaadith and other Muslim friends.

    Aziz, the problem is that there are no such things as approved, authorised and authentic Tafsir and Translation.
    Shias have their Tafsirs, Sunnis have theirs and others from various madahibs and schools of thought have theirs.

    I am discussing, debating and defending Qur'aan as a Muslim only. I do not belong anymore to any sect.

    Salaams
    BMZ
  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #165 - April 01, 2009, 01:51 AM
    @ FinallyFree

    I refer to your post #24 in the topic BMZ and Skynightblaze.

    Quote
    I wouldn't chalk it up to insecurity Islame, people like Khalil et al have been up against this troll and trounced him so many times on so many issues that it's unbelievable. The debate usually ends early as well.

    I think the anomosity on FFI's behalf is mainly due to the fact that they (we) are sick of seeing BMZ reincarnations and criticisms at the same time. Personally I would get it over with and unban him but that's another issue.

    I know I sound like an FFI fanboy right now but screw it.


    I would really like to see where people like Khalil et al, have trounced me many times? FFI is sick of BMZ simply because FFI sees BMZ as a threat. You cannot write me off as a troll. So, please do not use that offensive word again.

    Look at your own comments and posts here. What exactly are you doing? What have you contributed in any discussion?
    Doesn't that make you a troll?

    FFI knows well that it is simply capitalizing on the innocent ignorance of the gullible international silent readers. FFI provides a pack of lies, distortion, misinformation and false reports. I cannot stand that nonsense carried out by Ali Sina and his goons. Once one corners any of FFI lead writers, one will be banned under the excuse of trolling.

    It is very simple. If you talk, you must be prepared to listen!

    Anyway, for your information, I write to confirm that I will never visit the FFI cesspool.

    Just start writing in favour of Islam and see what happens to you!  Cheesy

    BMZ

  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #166 - April 01, 2009, 07:37 AM
    @ISLAME

    ITs too early to comment. Just wait and watch my reply . I have a problem with my PC. it will be fixed by tomorrow evening however i will try to reply from my friends PC tonight. Thats what is delaying me so please bear with me everyone. I am posting this from a cyber cafe.
  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #167 - April 01, 2009, 03:42 PM
    Quote from: skynightblaze on April 01, 2009, 07:37 AM
    @ISLAME

    ITs too early to comment. Just wait and watch my reply . I have a problem with my PC. it will be fixed by tomorrow evening however i will try to reply from my friends PC tonight. Thats what is delaying me so please bear with me everyone. I am posting this from a cyber cafe.


    SNB,

    Take your time, please. Sometimes, I may be very busy and you may not hear from me. We should understand that. You don't have to run to a cyber-cafe. Posters can enjoy commenting in the comment thread.

    No rush. Each of us may have other important things to do.

    Good night from Singapore
    BMZ
  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #168 - April 01, 2009, 03:45 PM
    Quote from: BMZ on April 01, 2009, 03:42 PM
    Quote from: skynightblaze on April 01, 2009, 07:37 AM
    @ISLAME

    ITs too early to comment. Just wait and watch my reply . I have a problem with my PC. it will be fixed by tomorrow evening however i will try to reply from my friends PC tonight. Thats what is delaying me so please bear with me everyone. I am posting this from a cyber cafe.


    SNB,

    Take your time, please. Sometimes, I may be very busy and you may not hear from me. We should understand that. You don't have to run to a cyber-cafe. Posters can enjoy commenting in the comment thread.

    No rush. Each of us may have other important things to do.

    Good night from Singapore
    BMZ


    thank you bmz for understanding my problem. I am right now in a cyber cafe.

    @All

    Please bear with me as  my pc is not working so I am going to take time to address the post made by BMZ. SO please bear with me.TOmorrow after my PC is back I will get to work SO it will be some time before I address him.
  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #169 - April 02, 2009, 02:36 AM
    Quote from: skynightblaze on April 01, 2009, 03:45 PM
    Quote from: BMZ on April 01, 2009, 03:42 PM
    Quote from: skynightblaze on April 01, 2009, 07:37 AM
    @ISLAME

    ITs too early to comment. Just wait and watch my reply . I have a problem with my PC. it will be fixed by tomorrow evening however i will try to reply from my friends PC tonight. Thats what is delaying me so please bear with me everyone. I am posting this from a cyber cafe.


    SNB,

    Take your time, please. Sometimes, I may be very busy and you may not hear from me. We should understand that. You don't have to run to a cyber-cafe. Posters can enjoy commenting in the comment thread.

    No rush. Each of us may have other important things to do.

    Good night from Singapore
    BMZ


    thank you bmz for understanding my problem. I am right now in a cyber cafe.

    @All

    Please bear with me as  my pc is not working so I am going to take time to address the post made by BMZ. SO please bear with me.TOmorrow after my PC is back I will get to work SO it will be some time before I address him.


    No, problem. I will have a hectic afternoon.

    Cheers
    BMZ
  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #170 - April 02, 2009, 08:28 AM
    Hello, BE

    Thanks for the comment in the other thread about the jumpers.

    Quote
    And this is why we make it one on one debates here lol to stop posters like you jumping in and making stupid comments like this.


     Smiley

    BMZ
  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #171 - April 02, 2009, 08:30 AM
    @ chaleslemartel

    I am glad all FFI guys, with their humourous and laughable remarks, have been kept out.  Wink

    Cheers, mate
    BMZ
  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #172 - April 02, 2009, 08:58 AM
    @ Bob,

    Thanks for your following comment in the Ringside:

    Quote
    I don't see a contradiction here:
    Muslims read the Quran in the order it was compiled (not the order dictated to Mohammed pbuh). And the Quran does not talk about it's own compilation.


    The poster appeared confused or perhaps he did not read it carefully.

    Cheers, mate
    Baig M Z
  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #173 - April 02, 2009, 05:03 PM
    @submissive bob
  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #174 - April 02, 2009, 05:05 PM
    @Submissive bob


    How can you accuse me of playing word games ? Am i really playing the word games or is he doing that? Think for yourself. Btw I shall refute you , Islame and Zaephon on the issue of spirituality. YOu thought my case was weak because this is a matter relating to  spirituality. Right? I am waiting for the appropriate time.
  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #175 - April 02, 2009, 05:15 PM
    Quote from: skynightblaze on April 02, 2009, 05:05 PM
    @Submissive bob


    How can you accuse me of playing word games ? Am i really playing the word games or is he doing that? Think for yourself. Btw I shall refute you , Islame and Zaephon on the issue of spirituality. YOu thought my case was weak because this is a matter relating to  spirituality. Right? I am waiting for the appropriate time.

    We're all ears.  You guys dont need to waste time on countering our commentary, its ad-hoc and will vary according to each post., you guys just stick to the ringside.  The true winner will be the last man left standing having cornered his opponent. 

    May the best man win.
     Cat fight


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  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #176 - April 02, 2009, 05:17 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 02, 2009, 05:15 PM
    Quote from: skynightblaze on April 02, 2009, 05:05 PM
    @Submissive bob


    How can you accuse me of playing word games ? Am i really playing the word games or is he doing that? Think for yourself. Btw I shall refute you , Islame and Zaephon on the issue of spirituality. YOu thought my case was weak because this is a matter relating to  spirituality. Right? I am waiting for the appropriate time.

    We're all ears.  You guys dont need to waste time on countering our commentary, its ad-hoc and will vary according to each post., you guys just stick to the ringside.  The true winner will be the last man left standing having cornered his opponent. 

    May the best man win.
     Cat fight






    Ok I am sorry but the comments are irking me.When I dont even understand how can you accuse me of playing word games? You shall soon see who is trying to deceive and playing the word games.
  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #177 - April 02, 2009, 05:33 PM
    Quote from: skynightblaze on April 02, 2009, 05:05 PM
    @Submissive bob


    How can you accuse me of playing word games ? Am i really playing the word games or is he doing that? Think for yourself. Btw I shall refute you , Islame and Zaephon on the issue of spirituality. YOu thought my case was weak because this is a matter relating to  spirituality. Right? I am waiting for the appropriate time.


    SNB,

    Bold emphasis is mine.

    Just wish to clarify that I am not playing a word game with you. Your job is to attack Qur'aan, show me errors and contradictions, if any. My job is to refute your accusations. It is as simple as that.

    You will note that I am trying my best not to insert Arabic verses to explain at this initial stage because the situation does not warrant it at all.

    We are not discussing spirituality, dimensions, etc.

    Since you have honestly admitted that you do not know even the A of Arabic, I am trying to explain the word, its meaning and the use in the language.

    For example, if I say, "I will come upon you like a ton of bricks", it would not mean that my weight is one tonne.

    So, let no one give new twists to our mutual exchanges. We are not here to entertain the thoughts and opinions of those in the ringside seats. However, we can write and appreciate if there is a good comment from anyone.

    Good Night
    BMZ





     
  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #178 - April 02, 2009, 05:46 PM
    Quote from: IsLame
    You guys dont need to waste time on countering our commentary, its ad-hoc and will vary according to each post., you guys just stick to the ringside.


    I couldn't have given any better advice. Thank you Islame.
    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: A Question to Ex-Muslims Only
     Reply #179 - April 02, 2009, 06:55 PM
    Quote from: charlesmartel on April 02, 2009, 05:46 PM
    Quote from: IsLame
    You guys dont need to waste time on countering our commentary, its ad-hoc and will vary according to each post., you guys just stick to the ringside.


    I couldn't have given any better advice. Thank you Islame.


    I dug my own grave with that one  Afro
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